When Do They Feel Guilt or Shame?

[Aussie0zborn]

I've read a lot about BPD and there is always a reference to guilt and shame. As in... .it's a guilt and shame based disorder. Correct me if I'm wrong but I understand this to mean that the guilt and shame is within but these are very real feelings and if a pwBPD can feel these, I'm at a loss to understand a few things... .

1. Why don't they have a sense of shame that might stop them from making asses of themselves (in our eyes)?

2. Why doesn't this guilt hold them back from being jerks (false accusations, smear campaigns, continued abuse after the relationship is over, etc) ?

3. Is this guilt and shame based on their poor handling of their emotional problems or is having emotional problems the reason for the guilt and shame?

4. When do they feel guilt and shame? My stbxw only expressed real guilt and shame when I caught her out with cold hard evidence.

I'd like t understand this guilt and shame thing more as I don't really understand why my stbxw is behaving like a twat. Thanks in advance.

[Wrongturn1]

I think the guilt/shame (primarily shame) that BPDs experience is not grounded in specific events or actions in the past, but more of a fundamental and pervasive sense of shame about who/what they are.  So I think it's more likely that the emotional problems are a result of the fundamental sense of shame rather than the cause.

That sense of shame can be present from a very young age and may shape the personality and set the stage for emotional problems later in life.  For instance, my uBPDw talks about a period of time when she was 5 years old and broke her leg playing on a playground... .the doctor put a cast on her leg that had to remain for something like 6 weeks... .this is a normal occurrence and something that commonly happens to kids.  But for my wife, she talks about being ashamed of the cast on her leg and not wanting anyone to see it.  A normal, mentally healthy 5-year-old would not likely feel that way, but I think for my wife, she latched onto the cast and seems to have blamed it for the sense of shame that she was continually feeling, even prior to breaking her leg. 

[Escaped 30.Sept.2013]

My ex grew up in a violent household - his father was authoritarian and controlling and insistent that his perfect son would follow his career path, be a clone of him but even better and more successful than him - but at the same time, my ex was seeing his tiny gentle mother and a very disabled sibling being hit again and again by his father. Also, my ex was thrown across rooms, held by his ankles and swung at the wall, etc., so a fair bit of head trauma probably.

I've met his mother, and this is not invention.

He couldn't save her. He couldn't protect her or his sibling. All he's ever wanted to do since he was tiny is to save his mum. When he had just left home to go to college he met me, a vulnerable mess, and was able to save me from a sexual assault by two guys, and was caring and protective in other ways. We lost touch when he left college, both of us drinking very heavily.

Anyway - fast-forward two decades to Facebook and him contacting me again, and we rapidly fall in love, and it's wonderful.

Reading between the lines, he seems driven by major guilt and shame that he couldn't save his mum and sibling, and fear that he's worthless because of this.

Level of self-awareness? I honestly don't know. I think he identified me pretty strongly as representing his mum (I know, that sounds very Freudian and icky!) - he couldn't save his mum, but here was a woman he could save, he could help.

It's more usual for a BPD to find a non-BPD to save them... .in my case it was the other way round, and my ex-bf... .all he ever wanted was to help me, rescue me, save me... .

But he is mainly built out of shame and guilt and fear. When it comes to close intimate relationships with women, he is terrified he can't protect them.

Does that make sense?

[happylogist]

Code:

I think the guilt/shame (primarily shame) that BPDs experience is not grounded in specific events or actions in the past, but more of a fundamental and pervasive sense of shame about who/what they are.  So I think it's more likely that the emotional problems are a result of the fundamental sense of shame rather than the cause.

Absolutely! That's the paradox of BPDs, not action -> shame and guilt loop, but the opposite - existential shame/guilt -> actions.  My ex could not precisely say what was making him feel so depressed... .  I think drinking was mainly for solving that problem - crystallizing his emotions like feeling of shame/love and also synchronizing feelings and thoughts. There was guilt for not finding his true belonging, shame for not being a working class, guilt towards his exes... .so much I can't even tell.

I find it amazing that my ex was using the word "sorry" all the time, just saying it constantly even for no reason! But never truly in the situations that he really needed, and worse - always implying no change of behavior.  "Sorry" was a way for him to tell others "don't hate me", "please like me".  Also referring to himself in derogatory terms ("I am such a ... ." was also a good way to express his self-loathing and receive a positive validation.

[Escaped 30.Sept.2013]

"Sorry" was a way for him to tell others "don't hate me", "please like me".  Also referring to himself in derogatory terms ("I am such a ... ." was also a good way to express his self-loathing and receive a positive validation.

Yes, mine too.

He gaslighted like crazy for months to prevent me changing to being 'just friends' with him as he kept saying he wanted when he was unable to sustain the LD relationship - but all the time he was saying he was sorry... .at one point I did say he didn't have to keep apologising from here to eternity and he said "I'm not so sure about that... .". He called himself most derogatory names under the sun, and kept saying I deserve better than him, that I deserve someone less erratic, less chaotic, less unpredictable, less stupid and arrogant, "someone less... .less me"

But the whole time he kept shifting the ground from under me, so that he could keep me loving him, fully loving him romantically, keeping me from distancing myself to being a friend who loved him as a friend - he needed to keep me.

And finally, I flipped and called him the names he had called himself. And I don't like to think how that has made him feel. I regret doing that. But I was eventually pushed so far by the gaslighting that I was losing my sanity, and it was only the first anger of my middle-aged entire life that saved my mind from snapping under the constant moving of the ground beneath my feet.

I still love him - but unfortunately, where I am concerned, he is the single msot destructive force I have ever encountered in my adult life, and I will not permit him to damage me further.

[DragoN]

AussieOzborn,

In my spins around the earth it goes something like this:

*n.b need PD googles for this



1. Why don't they have a sense of shame that might stop them from making asses of themselves (in our eyes)?

Because we are the one's being the asses , we aren't reading their minds and acting and speaking the way they want us to. We are extensions of them ,not separate entities with our own thought processes and perspectives.

2. Why doesn't this guilt hold them back from being jerks (false accusations, smear campaigns, continued abuse after the relationship is over, etc) ?

You misunderstand the conundrum of Truth. You speak the truth, that cannot be allowed, it must go through the Twisted Logic filter and be reconstituted as the bald faced truth and if anyone objects, they will 'rage' to shut you up, or go passive aggressive because they can't defend their falsehood.

3. Is this guilt and shame based on their poor handling of their emotional problems or is having emotional problems the reason for the guilt and shame?

Chicken or the egg? One feeds into the other.



4. When do they feel guilt and shame? My stbxw only expressed real guilt and shame when I caught her out with cold hard evidence.

Mine would and could to this day with cold hard evidence in his face deny the reality and expect me to buy in. No dice.

I'd like t understand this guilt and shame thing more as I don't really understand why my stbxw is behaving like a twat.

Cuz she's nutz? Radical acceptance. Doesn't make sense. Look at the actions and forget her words. The words have no meaning whatsoever.

I love you => BPD translation unit " =The dog farted" because the length  of time of the aroma of dog gaseous emissions is about the length of time  a BPD 'loves' before s/he hates your gutz.


I'm jaded.  

[Turkish]

I've read a lot about BPD and there is always a reference to guilt and shame. As in... .it's a guilt and shame based disorder. Correct me if I'm wrong but I understand this to mean that the guilt and shame is within but these are very real feelings and if a pwBPD can feel these, I'm at a loss to understand a few things... .

1. Why don't they have a sense of shame that might stop them from making asses of themselves (in our eyes)?

Because they are the emotional equivalent of little children, despite many (like mine) being high functioning in the "normal" world. Our three year old gets over his tantrums faster than his mom. The funny thing is that she can actually talk him down faster than I can; whereas, I stick him in his room and let him tantrum for about 15 minutes before I go talk to him (but I'm old school). Maybe it's because she can relate to him on his level? "It's ok to be angry... ." she says, etc... .Not over stupid #$!, I say, but then I say that about her, too. He's a three year old, he has an excuse. And his apologies when he mistreats his sister sound remarkably like hers... .not sincere, but forced.

[rosannadanna]

I don't mean to highjack, but I just wanted to let Escaped know that my pwBPD shares a similar hideous childhood of your ex, and he has the same tendency to want to rescue certain types of women (me a little so I know first hand).  But he also has waif tendencies, which makes him an interesting dichotomy... .he does his helpless thing but he can also be a codependent rescuer.  It's a head scratcher.  

I suspect that male BPD's shame and guilt does revolve around being rendered helpless in their childhood experiences.  If it is at the hands of a male parent figure, I am guessing that they feel shame at not being able to "handle" it like boys are socialized to do.  It gets even more ramped up if they feel they have failed their mother or other people in the house that are being victimized.  Oh and there is a good dose of rage thrown in there too.  My SO is able to verbalize this to me, as he has done a lot trauma work in last few years.

If the "offending" parent is their mother, that seems to be a whole other can of worms, complete with anger towards future female partners.

Again, sorry to highjack... .

[bb12]

... hmmm... .I don't really buy the shame thing in relation to BPD - as much as it seems to be the basis of the condition in all formal literature.I lean more toward the whole thing being a chemical problem and not nurture / home environment or shame.

I can't recall my exBPD acting in any way that would connote guilt for his actions or shame for who he was. Quite the opposite. He never doubted himself; never felt bad for the things he said about people; never seemed to wrestle with reconciling his past poor behaviour.

He had a litany of dramatic past r/ships but simply relegated those people to history with a "they're psycho"... .and that was it. There was never any internalising of blame or guilt about his own actions.

The only time my exBPD would ever demonstrate anything nearing remorse was when a complete stranger called him on his actions! He once left me at on the curb and jumped a taxi with other friends without telling me where to meet him or what was going on. Someone in the taxi reminded him that what he had done to me was very cruel and it was only then that he swung back to idealisation and tried to make it up to me for a few days. Didn't last long though. But this shame or guilt was not something he would come to naturally. There was no introspection... .just a reaction to being caught.

My feeling is that they are chemically, pathologically progammed to be selfish. It's all about them. Not a single thought starts from a point of empathy or altruism. They feel no shame at pursuing their own needs at the expense of everyone else.

I also feel they can only focus on one thing at a time. Once they are onto idealising someone else, the focus is on feeling loved by that person. There is no shame or guilt as they cut and run from us leaving us in a world of pain. There is nothing for them to learn or reflect on. All focus is on the new.

If shame and guilt features anywhere in this dynamic, it is with us and not them. Our own core FOO shame is what is reactivated by these people. We need to do the shame and guilt work more than them.

BB12

[Turkish]

... hmmm... .I don't really buy the shame thing in relation to BPD - as much as it seems to be the basis of the condition in all formal literature.I lean more toward the whole thing being a chemical problem and not nurture / home environment or shame.

I can't recall my exBPD acting in any way that would connote guilt for his actions

That's internalized, as in "I'm a horrible person, how could anybody love me?" Some more deeply than others. It is not, however, externalized as in showing actual remorse and contrite behavior towards those they offend and betray. It stops at the self-centered walls of their messed up minds. I agree with the rest of your comments. Any Altruism and love they demonstrate is based upon filling a need, leaving aside the philosophical discussions about altruism being selfish in general... .

[myself]

I believe that pwBPD do feel shame, because they are human and are aware at least some of the time that their actions do hurt those around them. It's a constant cover-up as far as they don't take responsibility for their actions, where others are blamed instead. To admit that they feel guilty about something would mean they are admitting that they did something, and when it's something negative that hurt someone, it's rare for it to be admitted. The whole thing gets messier when they do new bad actions to cover up the ones they've already done. This becomes a life-long pattern. With layer upon layer of guilt, shame, and pain.

[DragoN]

There was never any internalising of blame or guilt about his own actions.

If there were they would change. If wearing red clothes caused someone pain, would you continue to wear them when they are around? I wouldn't. But they can't / don't register the problem.

The only time my exBPD would ever demonstrate anything nearing remorse was when a complete stranger called him on his actions! He once left me at on the curb and jumped a taxi with other friends without telling me where to meet him or what was going on. Someone in the taxi reminded him that what he had done to me was very cruel and it was only then that he swung back to idealisation and tried to make it up to me for a few days. Didn't last long though. But this shame or guilt was not something he would come to naturally. There was no introspection... .just a reaction to being caught.

I've had the same thing happen to me. It's unreal. SO doesn't apologize at all anymore.

The behaviors got worse over time and less of anything in the way of recognizing the other as a person with feelings.

[Octoberfest]

I've read a lot about BPD and there is always a reference to guilt and shame. As in... .it's a guilt and shame based disorder. Correct me if I'm wrong but I understand this to mean that the guilt and shame is within but these are very real feelings and if a pwBPD can feel these, I'm at a loss to understand a few things... .

1. Why don't they have a sense of shame that might stop them from making asses of themselves (in our eyes)?

2. Why doesn't this guilt hold them back from being jerks (false accusations, smear campaigns, continued abuse after the relationship is over, etc) ?

3. Is this guilt and shame based on their poor handling of their emotional problems or is having emotional problems the reason for the guilt and shame?

4. When do they feel guilt and shame? My stbxw only expressed real guilt and shame when I caught her out with cold hard evidence.

I'd like t understand this guilt and shame thing more as I don't really understand why my stbxw is behaving like a twat. Thanks in advance.

This is a more generalized response to your question:

pwBPD feel guilt and shame ALL THE TIME.  It permeates their existence.  In another thread on here recently the topic of discussion was how many pwBPD hated being alone- I posted that mine shared with me that she hated being alone because it gave her time with her thoughts... .thoughts filled with shame and guilt.

The questions you ask would be valid if they were asked of mentally healthy and mature people.  They make the presumption that pwBPD feel and deal with guilt and shame in the same way that healthy people do... .this is not true.  In another recent thread the case was made that those who cheat actually have it easier than those who are cheated on; that those who cheat can own the mistake and learn from it, improve their narrative and move on with their lives, while those who are cheated on often wallow in the hurt of the betrayal and doubt their self worth because of what the person that they trust the most went and did to them.  The theory is probably correct- for healthy people.  For pwBPD however, they do not learn from their transgressions.  This fact is central to answering your questions here.

Healthy people recognized what they do as wrong... .and they feel the discomfort that comes from being in the wrong so more often than not they adjust their behavior to observe a better result next time.  pwBPD do not do this. I will use my BPDex as an example to prove my point.

My BPDex, at the ripe old age of 22, has accumulated enough things to feel guilt and/or shame over to last most people an entire lifetime.  She has been married before, engaged another 3 times, was abandoned by her father at birth, supposedly physically and sexually abused (I say supposedly because my BPDex lies about EVERYTHING- including having cancer), she has been pregnant more than once, one time on purpose that she later aborted and another time on accident that she miscarried (while with me... .another man's child nontheless), she cheated on me the entire 9 months we dated, was dating 3 guys at one time at one point, etc etc etc. For the record, I am not saying that all of these things are her fault- she obviously had no hand in her father abandoning her for example, but she surely feels shame about it. These are the things I learned of in just the 9 months I was with her/knew her. Something became very evident as I was around and observed my BPDex.  She drank and snorted hydros and cut and cheated and lied like she did to cope with the shame she feels.  It is a horribly viscous and destructive cycle.

Shame she feels --> Medicates with coping mechanisms (sleeping around, drinking, self harm, cheating, lying) --> Feels more shame over her new actions and their outcomes --> Further medicates with the same coping mechanisms --> Feels even more shame over her new actions and their outcomes --> etc.

The things she does to numb the pain of her guilt and shame only cause her more guilt and shame.  Thinking about it for a minute, that is one of the most tragic things I have ever heard of.  This is a person who found themselves on a roller coaster descending into hell, and rather than getting off and trying to climb their way manually back up, keep getting back on the roller coaster hoping someday it will swing upwards back up towards the surface.  In reality it only delves further down the rabbit hole.

I don't know how much sense this makes, oftentimes I have a hard time articulating my thoughts, but hopefully it offers a different perspective.

[Escaped 30.Sept.2013]

I don't mean to highjack,

Please please don't apologise - I found what you said really really helpful as well as interesting! And yes... .my ex had a very very very traditional alpha-male father, very authoritarian, very "boys don't cry"... .

I feel really sorry for him and still love him - but the only way I will ever reply to anything he sends me is if it comes on official headed paper via a serious shrink's office, asking for my help with his therapy... .

There's "I feel really sorry for him and still love him" and then there's "I plan to tie all these raw steaks round my arms and legs and go swimming in the most shark-infested seas I can find because I feel sorry for the poor sharks having no steaks to eat and I love sharks"

[leftbehind]

posted by Escaped

There's "I feel really sorry for him and still love him" and then there's "I plan to tie all these raw steaks round my arms and legs and go swimming in the most shark-infested seas I can find because I feel sorry for the poor sharks having no steaks to eat and I love sharks"

That is effing brilliant! Thanks for the laugh, and the truth

[happylogist]

But the whole time he kept shifting the ground from under me, so that he could keep me loving him, fully loving him romantically, keeping me from distancing myself to being a friend who loved him as a friend - he needed to keep me.

So - so true, Escaped! The same! And since I have a horrible understanding of where my boundaries begin and end and what I need to do to protect myself, which I didn't realize so well as I do now, it was a perfect match. He played push/pull perfectly, making me constantly jealous by telling dramatic stories about his current women, confessing love, needing me and showing that and playing "we can't be together card". 

rosannadanna, true, mine was also a waif type, who started by saving me and then shifted the roles... .I guess ideally he would love to save someone, but there was no enough strength and willpower for that. I guess another reason for feeling that existential guilt... .

[Escaped 30.Sept.2013]

happylogist, yep, that sounds really familiar!

I really only realised yesterday (see "Standing on Solid Ground" thread) that this last week and a half is the first time this year (it's October!) that I've woken up to the same situation as I went to bed with.

As long as there was any relationship between us, he kept re-defining it to meet his needs.

Now I have no relationship with him, there is no relationship to be redefined, so it doesn't change.

The relief... .

I didn't know how exhausting it was until it stopped... .

I still have a lot of work to do to get the addiction out of my head, though. But I like to think that my Replacement is not fulfilling him - the mutual friend we all have in common has told me that in 20 years mutual friend has known her, my Replacement has never had a boyfriend, so she is prime inexperienced material for him to go to work on - BUT also, mutual friend says Replacement is the least sympathetic woman she has ever known, and any comment which is not sunshine-and-light is criticised openly and instantly as "whining". mutual friend says Replacement is completely intolerant of anyone complaining about anything and just tells them to shut up and get on with it. (Also, she doesn't get my ex's sense of humour and at least once a week before I blocked them all, he would post something funny and she'd comment instantly that she doesn't get it... .hee hee. On top of that, she doesn't get his political comments either - she'll reply but it will be about some linked thing, not about the topic he has posted about... .that surely has to become rather wearisome?)

I find it no coincidence that last Sunday's email from my ex-bf accused me several times of whining (mostly it was him telling me what a hard life he's had). I think he is probably projecting onto me, an accusation he has recently been defending himself from. BPDs tend to live in the present, and I certainly haven't said anything about how i am or my "terrible life" as he accused me of calling it (I never did... .) since early August, so I can only assume that the accusation of "whining" comes from some part of his life other than me.

and the obvious place, given that he is intensely private and does not talk about personal stuff publicly at all, is... .my replacement.

Can't help but grin hugely at that one, can you? :D

[wishfulthinking]

Sabratha,

I agree 100% with your assessment.

Escaped,

Loved the shark comment.  Also 100% correct.

[bpdspell]

The guilt and shame are a complex dynamic to describe but struggling with thoughts of "unworthiness, emptiness, lostness, feeling unlovable, not good enoughness" are feelings that are triggered by both parties in the BPD toxic dance. These are deeply imbedded internal feelings that both parties struggle with.

So in other words the shame isn't necessarily a "BPD problem" as opposed to what happens when two people get together in an attempt to feel "whole." With idealization "wholeness" is mimicked but then devaluation takes it's place as both masks are dropped.

So to answer your question: When do they feel guilt and shame?

All the time! Feeling unworthy of love, feeling like a mistake, feeling perpetually broken is a state of being and it perpetuates itself in everything: especially how we see ourselves and how we treat others.

So how did shame manifest itself inside of me? Hating myself, blaming myself for my ex's actions, living in delusion and denial, accepting abuse, accepting my ex's lies as truth, using my ex as a cover up for my own feelings of worthlessness, treating my ex better than I treated myself, protecting my ex by not revealing his abuse... .

This is my shame and I now OWN IT.

I had a tough time being in touch with my own personal shame and deep sense of unworthiness because staring into my own mirror was something that I did not want to do. Just like my ex.

So what did I do? I stared into my ex's mirror hoping that he could validate me and make me feel worthy of the love that didn't exist inside of me.

Just like my ex.

When there's no love for yourself; shame is it's replacement.

It's hard to admit that we don't love ourselves and avoiding this truth comes with consequences like picking damaged people to love us.

I compare engagement with a BPD like investing in a car with a busted tail light, cracked rear view mirrors, a rusty engine, a dirty window shield. How the hell can a damaged car take you far?

Same thing with our exs. They can't take us far because their capacity to navigate love is extremely compromised.

Admitting that we didn't love ourselves is tough. But at the core of our issues is this very real truth.

Spell

[Century2012]

Oh, they feel it. Deep down in their core. That is why they act so ugly at the end and bounce back and forth (B/W)about their feelings. Because deep down inside they feel like a loser. They are maxed out on the shame and emptiness they feel inside.

I sat with my BPD for two days when he was suicidal. He hates himself.

[Century2012]

The problem with BPDs is that it really is a mask. They are scared for someone to see them as they see themselves. And often they try to live up to the fairy tale they created for us so we would love them, and they know they can't keep it up forever.

I think that might be one of the reasons they try to reconnect. They want to see if you hate them. Because we have forgiven to whatever degree, then maybe they aren't so awful (in their mind.)

[leftbehind]

from BPDspell

I had a tough time being in touch with my own personal shame and deep sense of unworthiness because staring into my own mirror was something that I did not want to do. Just like my ex.

So what did I do? I stared into my ex's mirror hoping that he could validate me and make me feel worthy of the love that didn't exist inside of me.

Just like my ex.

When there's no love for yourself; shame is it's replacement.

It's hard to admit that we don't love ourselves and avoiding this truth comes with consequences like picking damaged people to love us.

I compare engagement with a BPD like investing in a car with a busted tail light, cracked rear view mirrors, a rusty engine, a dirty window shield. How the hell can a damaged car take you far?

Same thing with our exs. They can't take us far because their capacity to navigate love is extremely compromised.

Admitting that we didn't love ourselves is tough. But at the core of our issues is this very real truth.

I am facing this deeper truth now, BPDspell.  Not loving myself enough is what attracted a partner who loved me in a disordered way.  The same and only way that both of my parents could love me, because of their own mental health issues.  Now I know the work is to hardcore love myself, so that I don't attract another broken person to half-love me with ambivalence and commitmentphobia  issues again.

I always get SO much from your posts, so thank you!

[Emelie Emelie]

My xBF felt a lot of guilt and shame about his behaviors... .his rages most specifically.  And as Century said I think it does have a lot to do with why the reconnect... .or in my case need to "be friends".  Because if I'll be friends with him then he's not such a bad guy.  He's often asked me, "I was a good boyfriend, wasn't I?"  "I wasn't such a bad guy, was I?"

[leftbehind]

Yeah, they hate the thought of someone cutting them out of their life.  Yet my ex broke up with me, and cut me out of his life first.  You made your choice, Muthaf**ker!  Just helps to vent from time to time, thanks for listening.

[Turkish]

The guilt and shame are a complex dynamic to describe but struggling with thoughts of "unworthiness, emptiness, lostness, feeling unlovable, not good enoughness" are feelings that are triggered by both parties in the BPD toxic dance. These are deeply imbedded internal feelings that both parties struggle with.

When there's no love for; shame is it's replacement.


Admitting that we didn't love ourselves is tough. But at the core of our issues is this very real truth.

That is a great quote. The thing with mine is that she was constantly telling me to stand up for myself to her. AT times I did, but then we got into toxic arguments, so I withdrew (my defense mechanism growing up with an angry mother). That, of course, triggered her to do what she did, but I know now that it ultimately had nothing to do with me. And it would have happened some time down the road, too. What I need to take stock of is that knowing how she was, perhaps I subconsciously "abandoned" her, knowing what would ultimately happen (except the affair with basically a "kid", that surprised the hell out of me, but now in retrospect, it makes sense).

[Octoberfest]

Yeah, they hate the thought of someone cutting them out of their life.  Yet my ex broke up with me, and cut me out of his life first.  You made your choice, Muthaf**ker!  Just helps to vent from time to time, thanks for listening.

Found out through the grapevine here recently that everyone significant in my BPDex's life here in my college town that she met after moving here this past year (except for her now fiance, the poor sap) has cut her out of their lives.  Her best friend while we dated, her best friend over the summer (they got tattoos together because they were going to be friends forever), and most everyone of my friends who got to know her as well.  I know the best friend with the tattoo really stings her, because that friend stopped talking to her and told her to take a leap after finding out my BPDex was sending the same long, sincere love notes to three different guys.  I guess she said, "She lies all the time and she hurts people".  My BPDex may very well go through with the marriage with this guy- she doesn't seem to have much left.  It is incredibly sad, both that she chases everyone in her life away with her actions, and that she is settling down with the guy that she is.  He is anything but a prize, and I have heard nothing but negative things about him.  I am almost thinking that she is with him because she believes it is what she deserves... .playing into the whole shame thing.  She told me when we split for good, after I found her cheating again, that, "I was never good for you.  You are so much better of a person than I could ever dream of being, and as sad as that is we both know it is true.  So just forget it ok.  Forget about the garbage I brought into your life and go be that amazing man that you are.  Can you do that for me?".

That text message was sent to me over 5 months ago, and deleted 4 months ago.  I still remember it verbatim.

I would say that people could make a fortune off the psychological/thriller movie crowd making some movies based on BPD relationships. But I don't know that people would buy it when they were told "based on a true story". A lot of this stuff is hard to believe.

[Century2012]

Octoberfest ... .I read the comment your posted about your ex being cut off from pretty much everyone.

And, my dear friend, Lisa ... .is such an upbeat person that I call her my "anti-depressant"

She brought a smile to my face today with this quote:

If you like something, set it free. If it comes back to you, that means not when else liked it ... .so, set if free again!

[Century2012]

Dog gone it ... .I need to proof before I post ... .

" ... .no one else liked it ... .so set it free again!"

[bb12]

[quote author=Octoberfest link=topic=211112.msg12327232#msg12327232

Found out through the grapevine here recently that everyone significant in my BPDex's life that she met after moving here this past year (except for her now fiance, the poor sap) has cut her out of their lives. [/quote]
Yep - my ex had no friends or apparent history before moving to my town 3 months before we met. In our 2 years together, his phone never rang. He was always available when I suggested something. Just stories about messy endings with exes and no talk at all about friends or family. Not sure if it was a shame or guilt thing that caused this. But it goes to show how important the attachment is to the one they're with. They abandon all else. Can't seem to maintain other things at the same time as idealising their romantic partner. So there was ample evidence of how I would be treated when we ended it!

BB12

[UmbrellaBoy]

Yeah, their guilt is not logical at all.

My guy was constantly going back to his alcoholic ex whom he was codependent with because he "felt guilty for hurting him."

Of course, I kept pointing out to him, by continuing to go back, you CONTINUE to hurt him. If you had just stuck with it the first time you left him, he would have had 2 years to heal by now, and have moved on and been over it.

Instead, you've jerked him (and me) along on a roller-coaster for an additional 2 years. In the long run, both of us has felt much more pain than if you had just ended things years ago.

The only person's pain he minimized was his own. By running back to nurse the alcoholic out of in-the-moment "guilt," he just kept hurting the guy. The real motive was just assuaging his own irrationally guilty feeling, not actually doing what would be best for the guy.

As nons, we expect guilt to be about some objectively bad action, or at least that (when it's irrational) our reason can tell us "Ignore that feeling, you actually did the best thing. Even if you had to hurt them in the moment, you're sparing them in the long run" or something like that. The BPD person can't really deal with that long-term "second order" analysis. If he feels guilty in the moment for hurting the guy, he'll go back to assuage his own guilt (even if, ironically, that means hurting the guy more in the long-run, thus creating even MORE guilt on an escalating cycle)... .