My friend lashed out accusing me of nastiness. I'm confused and hurt

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

Hi. Any advice would be really appreciated as I am feeling lost and quite overwhelmed. I know you can't diagnose online, but I want to be able to understand my friend. I thought she might be Bipolar, but I am starting to think she could have BPD.

I was dating this girl 5 months ago (same sex) and we hit it off instantly. But I noticed she started to be moody and would change from being super sad to extremely hyper/manic. She also seemed very sensitive and completely misinterpreted things I'd say or my actions.

She then revealed to me that she has "mental issues" and is very hurt from a recent break up. And that she had a stormy relationship with her ex and they kept breaking up and getting back together. She also told me she used to be addicted to speed and had a recent emotional breakdown. Of course this wasn't good news to my ears.

But we agreed to go slowly. I started to care about her. One night she told me she is bipolar and likes to "eat bricks". But then said she was joking. I remember thinking it was a weird joke! Not long after, she became more moody. 

Anyway, we ended up having a fight 2 months ago and she then didn't want to see me. She kept flaking on me and saying she was "busy". And i was about to go overseas on holidays. She then said she wasn't ready for anything serious but still liked hanging with me. It was confusing but figured we could just be friends. Anyway, when I returned home- she messaged saying she misses me. I got annoyed and asked her why she avoided me and now misses me.

She immediately lashed out and said she hadn't avoided me and that I called her a "bipolar junkie" 2 months ago! I had only once referred to her bipolar joke SHE made about herself. So this was a lie and twisting of what I said.   

She then told me I say "hurtful" things to her but couldn't give examples. And for one week we didn't speak. Then I tried to call her and she missed my call and told me she was just finishing off a project but hopes I am well and all smiley. It was odd how she seemed all chirpy now. And I called her the next night again and left a message saying I never meant to upset her and wanted to clear up I never called her a "bipolar junkie". I had to clear this up as it's serious to accuse someone of saying such to you.

She then lashed out again but over text saying "I thought we could be friends but you make me feel terrible and you keep insulting me and bringing up the bipolar thing. Your apology was even nasty. I don't need this. Goodbye".

I was stunned. I replied saying "huh? I tried to apologise and keep the peace. And also clear up I never called you bipolar. I don't understand this? How have I hurt you?"

Then she changed and said she didn't know what she meant by the insults but that I keep bringing up the "bipolar thing" even though it upsets her. She then said my "tone" is very abrupt and I make her feel like she's "always doing something wrong". I didn't get it and she ended by deleting me off Facebook and saying "Ok I'm f&cked. Goodbye".

I tried to ring her the next day as I was really upset. I left a message that was rather shakey as I was distressed and confused. I told her I never meant to hurt her and that I didn't understand how I had made her feel so upset and what am I missing here. And she then texted saying "I'm devastated I upset you. It wasn't my intention. I will call you this week."

I can't understand these extreme change in moods. It's like she lashes out and sees nastiness in things I say that isn't even there. She also twists my words to make it look like I insult her but afterwards seems to realise she made a mistake and feels bad.

I am actually quite fearful of her but I do care about her. So when she called me back, I decided not to take it. And I texted her saying I think we should not talk right now as I may unintentionally upset her and I don't want to do that. I added that I hope we can be friends one day and hope her week goes well.

She took a 2 days to respond and said "hi, so am I right in understanding you just want to leave things be for awhile?"

Hmm. Maybe she feels guilty. I feel I need to back off for a while as her emotions are just so volatile. Do u think its a good idea or will it create bitterness from her? Will she view it as a rejection even though she unfriended me on Facebook?

[Diana82]

Hi. Any advice would be really appreciated as I am feeling lost and quite overwhelmed. I know you can't diagnose online, but I want to be able to understand my friend. I thought she might be Bipolar, but I am starting to think she could have BPD.

I was dating this girl 5 months ago (same sex) and we hit it off instantly. But I noticed she started to be moody and would change from being super sad to extremely hyper/manic. She also seemed very sensitive and completely misinterpreted things I'd say or my actions.

She then revealed to me that she has "mental issues" and is very hurt from a recent break up. And that she had a stormy relationship with her ex and they kept breaking up and getting back together. She also told me she used to be addicted to speed and had a recent emotional breakdown. Of course this wasn't good news to my ears.

But we agreed to go slowly. I started to care about her. One night she told me she is bipolar and likes to "eat bricks". But then said she was joking. I remember thinking it was a weird joke! Not long after, she became more moody. 

Anyway, we ended up having a fight 2 months ago and she then didn't want to see me. She kept flaking on me and saying she was "busy". And i was about to go overseas on holidays. She then said she wasn't ready for anything serious but still liked hanging with me. It was confusing but figured we could just be friends. Anyway, when I returned home- she messaged saying she misses me. I got annoyed and asked her why she avoided me and now misses me.

She immediately lashed out and said she hadn't avoided me and that I called her a "bipolar junkie" 2 months ago! I had only once referred to her bipolar joke SHE made about herself. So this was a lie and twisting of what I said.   

She then told me I say "hurtful" things to her but couldn't give examples. And for one week we didn't speak. Then I tried to call her and she missed my call and told me she was just finishing off a project but hopes I am well and all smiley. It was odd how she seemed all chirpy now. And I called her the next night again and left a message saying I never meant to upset her and wanted to clear up I never called her a "bipolar junkie". I had to clear this up as it's serious to accuse someone of saying such to you.

She then lashed out again but over text saying "I thought we could be friends but you make me feel terrible and you keep insulting me and bringing up the bipolar thing. Your apology was even nasty. I don't need this. Goodbye".

I was stunned. I replied saying "huh? I tried to apologise and keep the peace. And also clear up I never called you bipolar. I don't understand this? How have I hurt you?"

Then she changed and said she didn't know what she meant by the insults but that I keep bringing up the "bipolar thing" even though it upsets her. She then said my "tone" is very abrupt and I make her feel like she's "always doing something wrong". I didn't get it and she ended by deleting me off Facebook and saying "Ok I'm f&cked. Goodbye".

I tried to ring her the next day as I was really upset. I left a message that was rather shakey as I was distressed and confused. I told her I never meant to hurt her and that I didn't understand how I had made her feel so upset and what am I missing here. And she then texted saying "I'm devastated I upset you. It wasn't my intention. I will call you this week."

I can't understand these extreme change in moods. It's like she lashes out and sees nastiness in things I say that isn't even there. She also twists my words to make it look like I insult her but afterwards seems to realise she made a mistake and feels bad.

I am actually quite fearful of her but I do care about her. So when she called me back, I decided not to take it. And I texted her saying I think we should not talk right now as I may unintentionally upset her and I don't want to do that. I added that I hope we can be friends one day and hope her week goes well.

She took a 2 days to respond and said "hi, so am I right in understanding you just want to leave things be for awhile?"

Hmm. Maybe she feels guilty. I feel I need to back off for a while as her emotions are just so volatile. Do u think its a good idea or will it create bitterness from her? Will she view it as a rejection even though she unfriended me on Facebook?

[havana]

I can't understand these extreme change in moods.

You will never understand them. You can try & accept them, learn how to avoid them & help her through them. I don't think they understand them either. This is a very complex disease. I lived with my wife for almost 42 years. It's not impossible but it is difficult You should certainly take it slow.

Best of luck & keep reading & asking questions.

[Clearmind]

 

Sorry to hear your struggles with your friend Zara - not fun!

Havana is certainly right - its very hard to see it clearly when you are in it.

The only way to understand the mood swings is to understand that people with BPD and to some extent those with Bi-polar live in a different reality to you. What you see and interpret is different for them. What you perceive as a trigger, threat or injustice is different for her.

If she is BPD, she fears abandonment, intimacy and engulfment. So whether you two decided to take things slow or not is of no consequence for a person with BPD. It’s all or nothing. To her she could feel engulfed by a phone call or you questioning and she will begin to push you away. Which seems more likely the case here. While she is pushing you away you are “all bad” – meaning she is purely projecting how she feels about herself onto you. Not fair and completely unreasonable to us however to her it’s the only way she can relinquish her deep feelings/emotions.

It’s a relationship of sorts Zara – part of being friends with someone who is disordered is three-fold 1) acceptance of the disorder and them as they show themselves to be 2) Good boundaries so you can protect yourself from projections/blame and criticism – because it will happen again 3) working on your own self worth so you can stay strong and true to yourself in the face of criticism – it’s not your fault.

Good book: "I hate you, don't leave me"

What do you want for you in this friendship?

If she was to call and criticse and blame you again - what boundary could you set to protect you?

[Diana82]

thank you very much for your responses. I appreciate it.

Well, it's clear she has calmed down since the storm and feels 'devastated' and perhaps embarrassed (I can only assume). 

But the stuff she said to me really stung. She even said "we don't have much in common and don't bring any benefits to each others lives. I hope everything goes well for you. Goodbye"  followed by her deleting me off Facebook.  :'( :'(   All of this after I apologised to her and clarified that I never called her bipolar!

It was hurtful that she said we don't have much in common- considering 2 weeks ago she said she missed me and missed our "interesting conversations" and going to dinner and theatre with me.

I wish I could listen to my own voice message to her and see how she interpreted it the way she did. But as I know, if she has BPD she has skewed perceptions.

I'm not sure what I want now. We are not life long friends who need to work things out as soon as possible. She was a date turned friend.

But I care about her. I think I can see beyond her volatile moods and outbursts that there is a sweet, intelligent and kind person under there.

I feel now that the best thing to do is disengage for a while.  I honestly don't want to say anything else to make her so upset again. And it's also for me... I feel I couldn't handle more aggressive texts like that any time soon.  It is still stressing me out.

So I am thinking of reiterating to her that I think it's best for us to not talk right now... but I care about her and don't want her to be upset like that.

[Diana82]

do you think she might misinterpret this text reply? and take it as a huge rejection?  (even though she rejected me and deleted me?) 

Hey. Well, I think it's best for now. I don't understand where your hurt is coming from, but I do care about you and don't want you to get upset again like that.  It was also distressing for me to be on the receiving end.

[eyvindr]

Hi ZaraP --

Sorry you're going through this.

If she has BPD, it's fairly impossible to predict how she will respond to something you say or write -- in fact, she might not respond at all.

Allow me to welcome you to the bpdfamily. Your presence here in itself is a sign that you're thinking clearly -- you wouldn't be here if you hadn't already taken the initiative to try to figure out what may be going on with your relationship, and how you can better handle this person in your life who you care about but whose behaviors are confusing and at times even hurting you. I know you will find many here who will be willing to listen, as well as be supportive and open with their own experiences. There is a lot of humanity in these boards... .you've found a good place.

From your intro, it sounds like you suspect that your ex may be suffering from BPD. Personality disorders like BPD aren't easy to diagnose, even by professionals (which I am not). Many symptoms of BPD are shared with other types of mood disorders, like bipolar -- and, if it is BP or BPD, they are illnesses that tend to be comorbid with a lot of others. As you learn about it, it's easy to feel overwhelmed at times. You can learn more about what BPD looks like here: What are the Symptoms of Borderline Personality Disorder?  Sometimes, watching this video -- Video-What is Borderline Personality Disorder? -- can be informative, too.

There is also a wealth of information in the Learning Center, here: Questions about BPD and BPD Resources

Since you're new, review this page to become familiar with how these discussion boards are set up.

Now that you've introduced yourself and shared a little background, we typically would encourage you to move your posts to a discussion board that most reflects your current state of mind on the r-ship. Most of us find that the specific nature of our BPD r/s leads us to spend most of our time on one or two boards -- and we find other members there in similar situations, which usually results in more helpful feedback and support. After you've found the best board for you, when you're ready, feel free to start your own "thread" by posting more of your story, asking questions and responding to posts made by other members. In your case, you seem to have skipped a step and possibly found your way already to the appropriate board for you now, which is this one -- fondly known around here as the "Staying Board."

You can always change boards when you feel that it is appropriate. Some other things that may be helpful to you:

Video-Tools to Reduce Conflict with a person suffering from BPD

The Do's and Don'ts for a BP relationship

I just wanted to reiterate Clearmind's question -- you need to clearly determine what you want, and don't want, from your friendship with her. And accept that what you want may not be possible -- or may be possible, but on terms you never imagined. Not judging -- not bad or good -- just different. They are different.

How are you doing? Do you have a therapist of your own who you can see? How about family and friends? Do you have a social support network you can lean on?

Hang in there,

eyvindr

[Clearmind]

Calm now because she threw all her feelings onto you. You are now the one reeling!

What she said would sting – of course! Her handling of this on FB is also very passive aggressive. Dealing with PA people honestly is the hardest thing because we never feel heard and they just shutdown.

BPD’s are very impulsive. Emotions are impulsive. Hobbies are impulsive. What she felt one minute ago can change in an instant. If she has long (few weeks) periods of depression followed by high highs then it’s more likely not BPD.

I could also see past my ex’s volatile moods – but I could not live with it long term. If you receive aggressive text – don’t reply. If she yells at you on the phone – “X, I will not be yelled at/accused/blamed – if you do not stop I will hang up”. Good boundaries.

In any case she is who she is in its entirety – she is that sweet person and that person that can be mean. She needs to self soothe on her own.

There are two in this relationship Zara - her and you! Maybe Zara, look at your own reasons for wanting to rescue/save her from her feelings – she is an adult and needs to learn to save herself.

[Diana82]

Thanks clearmind. That made a lot of sense...

She did this while we were dating too. Once she'd had some fight with a friend and suddenly she messaged me saying  "I'd get out if I were you. I'd stop hanging around me... I'm sad all the time and I oscillate between manic and mediocre. I don't think I can date anyone or even casually date!"   It came out of nowhere. And then literally within 1.5 hours she changed and I think she had a joint.

I said I'd leave her alone. And she didn't like that and said "that sounded serious. I understand if you don't want to be around me right now... but I will be sad. I'll give you some space then"   

And I was thinking HUH? she said SHE doesn't think she can date anyone.  Her mood changed so fast and she apologised for taking out her 'drama with her friend' on me.


So I suppose... this is nothing new. Except this time, she grossly misinterpreted my apology, accused me of calling her bipolar and a junkie and seems a bit delusional that I said this often to her.

Do BPDs tend to misinterpret things like apologies? they just see nastiness?   I am a sincere person who would never fake an apology on the phone. But all she saw was nastiness. And bang bang bang she went off at me.

[Diana82]

thanks eyvindr 

[Diana82]

yes she is passive aggressive. She's always been upset with me-over text or facebook. She told me once she hates confrontation and talking on the phone.

In person, you wouldn't believe she would lash out. She is sweet and seems very kind. 

I had called her while she was having this meltdown over text with me and left a message almost shaking saying I was confused... never meant to hurt her and there was nothing sinister behind my call. And I said something like "With all of my friends... if there is ever an issue- we work it out like adults. I think we should try to be peaceful and not be on bad terms if it's possible"

and she did ring me (after she said she felt devastated).  But I made the decision I didn't want to speak on the phone anymore... not sure why.  I suppose I just feel scared and also upset.

I prefer to just tell her we should take time out for now.  I think the only way we can be friends, is if she is honest about what is going on with her moods. If she tells me more about her 'mental issues' that she once told me about... I could then understand and not take things personally.

[eyvindr]

You're welcome, ZaraP.

And, yes -- if they are masters of anything, it's of misinterpretation!   

Do BPDs tend to misinterpret things like apologies? they just see nastiness?   I am a sincere person who would never fake an apology on the phone. But all she saw was nastiness. And bang bang bang she went off at me.

In all seriousness, though -- more accurately, I don't think they misinterpret things so much as they actually interpret things in a way that "fits" into whatever current script they're adhering to. For example, once in my r-ship with my uBPDxgf -- she worked hard at a pretty boring job (very underemployed, given her level of intelligence and potential -- but she couldn't deal with people, so stayed at a level where she basically could work on her own all day) where she didn't make much money. But, her company was pretty generous, and they usually doled out very generous holiday bonuses (we're talking into the tens of thousands some years!). She struggled to make ends meet, and always said she never spent more than $20 on a single item of clothing -- and often shopped in juniors sections to get even better deals. So, one year, she asked me what I thought she should do with her bonus, and I just suggested that she treat herself by going to a nice store and picking out some things she really liked from a petite section! I thought  it was something she'd really enjoy, a nice idea!

She turned on a dime. Went from having a nice phone conversation to her accusing me of criticizing her fashion sense and making her feel like I didn't appreciate the time and effort she put into trying to always look attractive for me! Wouldn't give me any credit for what it actually was -- an attempt by me to share in her happiness over getting a bonus and simply suggesting that she use some of it to do something nice for herself! There wasn't a nasty molecule in the whole thing!

But her BPD found a way to make some.

Hang in there.

e.

[Clearmind]

Feelings = facts. If she feels terrible then the facts presented are terrible. And Borderlines can and do change the facts to match their feelings - which is the reason why the reality is skewed.

My ex made me a coffee. It was slightly cold so asked him to microwave it a bit. He basically flew into a rage and blamed himself and me for making him feel awful/failure. Fact was the coffee was cold. Emotions over rode any rationale and all his feelings took over. Simple example however worth explaining.

[Diana82]

Wow ok... so I am starting to think she really is Borderline.  I believe she is aware of her own issues as she told me she has "mental issues".  But she never specified what she has or what she was doing to manage it... I don't even think she's seen a shrink.

The other thing I thought was it might be due to prolonged drug use. She told me she used to take speed daily and also regularly did pills and cocaine.

These days she claims she only does the odd joint... but I am skeptical. Could it possible she is taking drugs to soothe her BPD symptoms?

[Diana82]

And yes, even though I kept asking her to give me examples of how I had been 'terrible' to her or insulted her- she diverted the conversation.  She just couldn't give me any examples. All she kept saying was that I made her feel terrible and 'diss her' and thrown random insults at her every few weeks, 

I should add... that I have a silly sense of humour sometimes. And recently she put up a photo of herself as a kid on facebook. I told her she was cute when young and also a bit lanky and it was funny. Then she said "Now I am just short"  and I said "hehe. But you have a few brain cells left I thought!"  (obviously a joke as she is very intelligent).

She said "You say strange things to me!"

So i think she is referring to my playful jokes being 'insults' to her. I do know she has always been very sensitive since I met her.

[Diana82]

Sorry for all the questions but the other thing is... .she avoided me before I went overseas for 2 weeks. This was post our fight.

She suddenly flaked and kept saying she was really stressed out at work and couldn't see me. But then once when I texted her and she told me she was sitting in the sun having a drink with an old friend!  Yet, she couldn't see me for an hour at least before I went away! 

I was offended. She went from texting me daily and wanting to see me... to total flake. And she was never clear if we were going to hang out together again even as casuals. So I assumed it was over.

So when I got back home and she said she misses me... it was a surprise. I thought- hang on... is she playing me? 

And when I asked her why she avoided me before I left... it was as if she had no idea what I was talking about. She said it was a crazy time and that she had a friend's anniversary on. Except... .that was one day.

Is it possible, that BPDs avoid people and push them away... .but then act like it never happened later? or that you're making a big deal about nothing if they do this?

She even said to me "It's normal to miss someone you haven't seen for ages!"  and I said "yes it is. But you avoided me?" 

[hellokitty4]

I can so relate to your situation Zara. I have been going through the same thing with my friend. In reading your post, it was like reading my life in the last 3 years. Anything I say or do is not good enough. I feel like I am dealing with a young child.  Unfortunately, I am the only one who see this side of her. And so to others who both know us, they think I'm the nutcase because she has such a glowing outward personality.  If only people knew... .

Recently I got raged on for getting an iPhone because in her words "I copy everything she does." A 38 yr old woman is concerned about this? She projected her irritation with her other friend who got an iPhone with her because she would have rather gone to get it with me.  The following day she was visibly upset and worried that I would leave our friendship.  She's hot and cold. Pull and push and after a while I get too confused.  I even worry that I triggered something even when I haven't done anything.

I give her space and let her know I am here whenever she needs me.  I love her dearly but any sign of closeness is dangerous.

Hang in there

[Diana82]

Hi Hellokitty... well that sure would be draining!

It's a bit odd because she has deleted me from Facebook... .yet is confirming that I want to "leave things be for a while".

It's strange and it does feel like she might not want me to leave her alone or abandon the friendship now.

But I need to leave her be- for my own sake really. And who knows... maybe we will cross paths later or I will move on from her.  But right now, it feels like her moods are worse than ever.

I know you can't predict what a BPD might say or how they will react... but do you think the below sounds harsh at all?  (if I send this text).

She asked me "Hi, so am I right in understanding you just want to leave things be for a while?"

"Hey. Well, yes for now. It was also pretty stressful for me to be on the receiving end of your messages. But I do care about you and don't want you to be upset like this again.  I hope you enjoy your weekend"

[Diana82]

UPDATE:

So i texted her an hour ago saying i think for now we leave it be and that it was stressful to receive the messages but I do care and don't want her to be sad.

She replied saying:

I agree. I'm destroyed after the past week. I'm not thick-skinned enough to deal with your messages either. Im sorry for my part-I really didn't mean to hurt you. Take care of yourself x


":)estroyed"? I'm astounded. I don't understand how she can be destroyed! I did nothing. I apologised. And it has destroyed her... .

I am lost for words. I just feel worse. I want to tell her that makes me sad that she feels that way. But I don't know... .So lost... :'(

[eyvindr]

I'm sorry, Zara. It's clear form your posts that you really do care for her and you're struggling with this.   

She replied saying:

I agree. I'm destroyed after the past week. I'm not thick-skinned enough to deal with your messages either. Im sorry for my part-I really didn't mean to hurt you. Take care of yourself x

":)estroyed"? I'm astounded. I don't understand how she can be destroyed! I did nothing. I apologised. And it has destroyed her... .

I am lost for words. I just feel worse. I want to tell her that makes me sad that she feels that way. But I don't know... .So lost... :'(

Her response is a clear example of what I meant when I posted that it's close to impossible to accurately predict how a pwBPD (if she has it) will respond to something you say or write. Of course, I only know your side of the story -- but based on what you've shared, I can totally see why her post would confuse, frustrate and upset you. I can't see anything that you've said or done that would warrant being described so extremely.

This may help -- mine is a huge drama queen, especially when triggered. Yours?... .

[Clearmind]

Zara remind yourself that BPD is an emotional disorder - her emotions will always far outstrip what you would consider rational. Think of how you feel in any given moment and times it by 100 - thats why the words destroyed seems fitting for how she feels herself.

She is not blaming you. She blames herself yet casts its your way to make her feel better. Please don't take her stuff onboard. Let her own it because its not yours to own.

[Diana82]

Hi everyone

Well, last night I wanted to reply and say "your emotions seem volatile and this has been very confusing for me"... but then I thought hang on-- she might then flip out and accuse me of calling her a schizophrenic! 

anything slightly negative I say will make her explode again.

So I ended up replying to her and said ":)estroyed?   this makes me quite sad. I'm sending a virtual hug your way."  and then "I'm not sure where your hurt comes from but I hope you can find some peace and have a nice Friday "

And she said: "Thanks for my hug. I am really sorry I reacted, I know you didn't mean to attack me you just have a knack for finding my insecurities! Hope you have a lovely day too"


"I know you didn't mean to attack me?"  ugh!   it's like she is talking about herself. She attacked me. I apologised over the phone and she went off at me with abusive texts.

I think it's best I not reply... and keep to my initial idea of leaving her alone for a while

[Clearmind]

Zara, the text exchanges are not working. You are wanting her to be civil and she is not capable. We need to change our expectations when it comes to someone who is not well. If you persist with these circular arguments and texts it will be invalidating for you.

Step back my friend - neither of you are wrong or right - its a difference in emotional capability and perception of events - you cannot change the way she thinks and feels - its hers to own.

[Diana82]

eyvindr >  drama queen is almost an understatement. The use of the phrases "I'm devastated I upset you"  and "I'm destroyed" are quite over the top (to me).

The thing is... .when I asked her a couple of weeks ago why she had avoided me 2 months ago and now says she misses me-  she told me "this is so melodramatic. I think you like a bit of drama!"

and I was thinking... ok... perhaps I sometimes tend to analyse things a bit too much (my weakness) but my question was valid. I don't think it was being melodramatic to ask that when she seemed to have disappeared on me.

A lot of the time I feel she is talking about herself. Especially as she told me this morning 'I know you didn't mean to attack me".  It's quite infuriating!

[Diana82]

well it sounds like she wants to be civil and keeps saying she never meant to upset me. But then throws in strange comments. Sometimes I feel like she is trying to get attention... she probably knew that saying 'I'm destroyed" will evoke a reaction in me. As she knows I care about her and still like her.

But yes, her perceptions are completely different.   I can't understand how an apology can destroy someone or make them lash out... .but that's because I am not her. And I know I can't change her view of things.

I also can't change the fact that she thinks I called her a 'bipolar junkie'.   

I think this is the most awful thing for me... she still has not mentioned this or agreed that she accused me of something I never said. And that she said that to ME... as a joke that I repeated. 

Do BPDs ever admit to twisting your words? Lets say, I showed her the message I sent her repeating her joke that clearly shows I did not call her a bipolar junkie. Would she still twist it then?

[eyvindr]

ZaraP --

My heart goes out to you. You're trying so hard... .but I think DreamGirl is right. Sounds like you're still trying to make sense out of the senseless.

I think this is the most awful thing for me... she still has not mentioned this or agreed that she accused me of something I never said. And that she said that to ME... as a joke that I repeated. 

Do BPDs ever admit to twisting your words? Lets say, I showed her the message I sent her repeating her joke that clearly shows I did not call her a bipolar junkie. Would she still twist it then?

Like you, I too got sucked into a mind-bending vortex of negative unproductive discussions/debates/arguments/battles via txtng with my ex. We'd even AGREE following the hurt and apologies post-argument that txtng was a HUGE problem, didn't facilitate communications between us, and pretty much ALWAYS made things worse! But, as soon as we'd strike that bargain, she'd be txtng away again, and if I tried to remind her, she'd reprimand me along the lines of, "No -- not right now. This is important, and you need to respond to me right now. You can't ignore me. That's not right, eyvindr -- people don't just ignore each other like this. You need to respond to me RIGHT NOW!" Horribly frustrating. I'd be left with absolutely no recourse except to turn off my phone. Which she promptly labeled as "emotional abuse."

To your question -- well, I tried to show her her own txts, emails, etc. On a number of occasions. Didn't matter -- when she was dysregulated, it didn't matter what she wrote. Everything could be explained by either:

• People say mean things that they don't mean when they're angry.

  
  




• Oh, c'mon! -- I was just joking! You can't be serious!

  
  




• Don't try to change the subject. You're trying to blame me for this.

  
  




• I only said that because you were being rude and ignoring me.

  
  




• I have the right to express my feelings.

  
  

So, no. I wouldn't bother. Unless you're brave, tough-skinned and curious to see how she'd respond.

 Hang in there.

e.

[Diana82]

Thanks so much for your messages. It makes me feel better that people can relate.

But then, I'm only assuming she has BPD.

Can I ask, did your BPD friend/ex avoid or flake on you suddenly and then act like it never happened and that you overreacted?

I'm just astounded she said she misses me after it was obvious she avoided me for weeks. And kept saying she was busy.

It feels like she's messing with my emotions. That's why I asked her why she avoided me but she went off at me.

[Diana82]

I guess I was expecting her to say "I'm sorry u feel that way but we had a fight and I needed space. I just couldn't face u then. But I miss you"

Instead she said "it's perfectly normal to miss someone you haven't seen for ages. I do miss you". And "you seem to always want to put labels on things and put them into neat tidy boxes". I took that to me, you and I were casual and I can come and go!

[Diana82]

Hi clearmind.  I agree I need to step back and that was my suggestion to leave it be for a while.

She's being so apologetic... but at the same time quite cutting and blaming me. 

I don't quite know what we are now. Are we friends giving each other space? Are we ex lovers who are doing no contact? 

I don't know how she has normal friendships with anyone like this.  I can now understand why her ex and her were on and off again for years...

Interestingly, she kept trash talking her ex when I dated her. II heard all about how the ex hurt her on many levels and degraded her. But then she'd see her a couple days later for lunch! And was wanting to be friends with her.

[Diana82]

A psych student friend of mine definitely talked to me about this last night. And told me that the fact I trigger her insecurities, means that she has feelings for me.

If I meant nothing to her, she wouldn't care what I said. It would have no meaning. But I can only hurt her or bring out her insecurities-because she feels something for me.

Whether that be friendship or romantic feelings.

Interesting... do you agree?

I'm not looking for reassurance here. I just am struggling to understand why she seems so aloof sometimes and doesn't want to "put a label" on us... .yet my comments affect her this much that she feels 'destroyed'.

[Diana82]

I'm interested to hear your thoughts on her saying "you just have a knack for finding my insecurities!"

I sometimes think she has a lot of insight into her own behaviour.

Once while we were dating, she had admitted she is "damaged goods". And I asked her what her insecurities were so I can be aware of them and she said "how long have you got?  It's a long list"


Could it be that I am her trigger because we were dating and in an intimate (short) relationship? 

Do you think she has some feelings still for me and that's why I have the capacity to trigger her or affect her this way?  I haven't seen her for almost 3 months.

I thought BPDs can only be hurt by people they love or people they feel something for. I have no idea if she ever had love feelings for me... but I do know she liked me and missed me. And only 2 weeks ago she expressed she missed me.

[eyvindr]

Hi Zara --

How are you today?

I just wanted to check in with you. I can't be sure, but it sounds to me, from your posts, that you're trying to make sense of her texts to you. I totally relate. It's normal for us to try to do this -- after all, we have this gift of language that allows us to communicate with one another. We learn it at a very early age, and many of us spend the rest of our lives, I think, trying to master it, and learn how to use it more effectively, efficiently, accurately.

It really can be a powerful and empowering thing to know how to express clearly what you feel. I know I'm a total sucker for language -- to the extent that it can actually work against me at times, for example, I can be too literal. I can see where lots of misunderstandings with my ex often started there. For instance, like in your example of your friend txtng you that she was "destroyed" -- very likely, she was upset, at least on some level. But, she very possibly wasn't as upset as she implied -- and she certainly wasn't in any way destroyed. I used to -- and still can, frankly -- respond very strongly to things my ex says or writes based on nothing more than the words that she uses. In some cases, she chooses the words that she uses for effect, more than for accuracy. In other cases, more for impact than accuracy. In each case, I think I understand that she truly wanted to convey her feelings -- but wasn't able to control them, or to factor in any accountability for how her uncensored expression of raw, unfiltered feelings could affect someone close to her.

Is this making any sense? It's a complicated issue, I think -- once that I continue to struggle with. It's kind of like if you spend all day cleaning your kitchen, and you go crazy and it's now The Cleanest Kitchen in the Universe. And then a neighbor stops by to borrow some sugar, and you open the door, and their crazy dog runs in, gets muddy pawprints all over the floors AND pees on your stove! And you scream, "I want to kill you and set your dog on fire!" But you don't really mean that. But your neighbor takes it to heart, grabs their dog and runs away, never to speak to you again.

An over-the-top example, I know -- but I think sometimes this is the dynamic that occurs when trying to communicate with someone who is dysregulated, whether or not they have a PD. If they have a PD, they very likely do not interpret words in the way you intend -- if they are dysregulated, no matter what you write, it will likely be received with a whole lot of emotional impact. And the response will be likely MORE emotional. So, you get into that situation where the weird vibrations begin... .

You: Hi!

Her:  What do you mean by that?

You:  ?

Her:  Fine. I don't need this, today.

You: 

I definitely agree with Clearmind's suggestion that you drop the txtng -- it doesn't work well, it won't work, and it's very likely to make things worse.

Sounds like things have quieted down, maybe?

Hang in there,

e.

[Diana82]

That makes sense...

I agree. I think she uses certain words for impact. But I also believe she really does feel such extreme emotions. She did tell me once she oscillates between manic to mediocre often.

It seems common for BPDs to prefer communication via text or Facebook. Is this because they tend to be quite passive aggressive? She would never lash out in person like that. She's actually more the shy type.

I haven't replied to her latest message where she says  I have a way of finding her insecurities.

But I want to tell her that if we do become friends one day, the only way it can work is if she talks to me more about the insecurities and triggers. So I am aware of them.

I'm not sure i should though.

I don't want to punish her with silence but I agreed that we should leave it be for a while...

[Diana82]

So... I am still confused about how I trigger her.

She said I "have a knack" for finding her insecurities.

But... I don't see how apologising and clearing up I never called her bipolar- can trigger her.

But I'm starting to think that she suspected she might be bipolar and made a joke about it. And any reference to that word or joke makes her flip. And she then thinks I actually think those things of her too... .

It does all sound like projection. Telling me my "tone" upsets her and us abrupt. Yet she is sending me crazy and hurtful texts!

But she seems to be very apologetic now. And so ignoring her last text feels almost cruel :/

[hellokitty4]

So... I am still confused about how I trigger her.

She said I "have a knack" for finding her insecurities.

But... I don't see how apologising and clearing up I never called her bipolar- can trigger her.

But I'm starting to think that she suspected she might be bipolar and made a joke about it. And any reference to that word or joke makes her flip. And she then thinks I actually think those things of her too... .

It does all sound like projection. Telling me my "tone" upsets her and us abrupt. Yet she is sending me crazy and hurtful texts!

But she seems to be very apologetic now. And so ignoring her last text feels almost cruel :/

Don't take this the wrong way, Zara... .you are her trigger. At any moment you can trigger her. It doesn't matter if you didn't do anything wrong... .she will find something to get upset about with you. You can stare into space and that would trigger her. One look at you could trigger her.  This is why not taking it personally helps. 

I believe that I am the cause of my BPD friend's anger or hurt for whatever reason she finds, yet I am also the way for her to get out of her misery. Contradicting emotions triggered by the same person... .but oh yes it's BPD.

[Diana82]

Hey there

Yes I can see I am her trigger.

But I find that strange... considering I haven't seen her for close to 3 months.

If u have an intimate or romantic relationship with a BPD- will u become their trigger?

We currently don't have an intimate relationship or anything really! we communicated via facebook when I was away overseas too. So, I'm wondering why i am still her trigger. 

Is it because she may still hold feelings for me or sees me as someone who was close at one point and that person can be a trigger for life?

[Diana82]

I'm also just wondering if anyone here has had a BPD friend or lover avoid or completely flake on them... but then come back and act like they never did?

Initially I thought this girl was playing games. But she actually seems unaware of the fact she avoided me following our argument 2 months ago. And she told me she misses me 2 weeks ago. It was random!

I still can't fathom it. If she misses me, why did she avoid me like I was nothing to her before I left for overseas? I was so hurt she didn't want to see me for even an hour before I left.

[hellokitty4]

I'm also just wondering if anyone here has had a BPD friend or lover avoid or completely flake on them... but then come back and act like they never did?

Initially I thought this girl was playing games. But she actually seems unaware of the fact she avoided me following our argument 2 months ago. And she told me she misses me 2 weeks ago. It was random!

I still can't fathom it. If she misses me, why did she avoid me like I was nothing to her before I left for overseas? I was so hurt she didn't want to see me for even an hour before I left.

Yes, yes, yes... .

My BPD friend goes through avoidance on a regular basis. We don't even have to see each other for her to want to avoid me. They "leave" before you sort of preempting the possibility. Then a few days go by and back to normal. Hard to explain. My friend once said to me "I would rather be mad at you and miss you than to lose you". So she finds any reason to get upset with me. She wants me around... .and especially when she's done with her tantrum. And when is done with her dysregulated phase she does nice things to make it better. Push/pull. The best thing for you to do is to go about your life doing what you love. The less contact the happier and more relaxed you will be.

Fully accept what you cannot change, do not engage (leave an argument if you feel uncomfortable) yet be there for her. Do not forget that you are important too. I love my friend dearly... .sometimes loving her feels better from a distance. Smothering them or even showing them that you care scares them and triggers them to push you away. And usually it is all in their minds.

About your question about intimacy... .it takes all forms. I am emotionally intimate with my friend. The key is to detach when needed.

[Diana82]

Hi hello kitty

Interesting stuff...

Have u ever confronted your friend about the avoidance?

If so, what was the reaction?

I didn't think this girl was interested in dating me anymore. She kept saying work was really taking up her time. But then I'd hear about how she was sitting in the sun with an old friend.

So when I returned from my holiday and she randomly said she misses me (over Facebook), I wanted to confront her. I suppose the way I asked her was quite direct ESP for a BPD.

The Facebook convo went like this:

Me: "Hi, I'm going to just be direct here. Why did you say you miss me now after you completely avoided and flaked on me for weeks? What is that about? It seems your behaviour has reached a new level of weird and it feels like a head screw"

She: "when did I avoid you? When you called me a bipolar junkie and cracked it at me? I told u I missed u because I do. I miss going to dinner/movies/theatre with you and our conversations. But u jump to so many conclusions and say things that cut! What do u want from me?"

I was astounded at this point. And said "um what? I never called you a bipolar junkie. And it did feel like u avoided me. I didn't think u were interested anymore. You went from texting me daily and wanting to see me weekly, to nothing and saying u were busy every day. So saying you miss me now just seems a bit strange. I don't want anything from you, I just had to ask the question".

She: "well if u don't want anything from me, maybe u shouldn't message me as often! And I won't reply. You seem to want all or nothing. You don't have to see each other everyday to be friends! And u don't have to put a label on everything and put it into tidy boxes".

At this point I was so confused. ESP the bit about "you don't have to see each other everyday to be friends"... .I hadn't seen her for 2.5 months!

And she continued to say "it's perfectly normal to miss someone u haven't seen for ages. I wanted to float the idea I missed you... to see if u felt the same and we could make time"

Does this sound like classic BPD behaviour? Why couldn't she just ask to see me like most friends do?

Sometimes it feels like she's playing head games.

[Diana82]

I should also add that I found out she had been seeing a new woman while I was away overseas. And she was on a date with that girl (according to Facebook) and texting me she misses me at the same time!

And I noticed that suddenly this girl disappeared from her Facebook and looked like she blocked her. And that's when she was quite angry at me.

I feel perhaps I am her emotional dumping ground.

While we were dating back in August, she had a fight with a friend and took it out on me. She tried to end it with me that evening.

Is it common for lovers or friends to be emotional dumps for BPDs?

[Diana82]

By the way, although Im a little fearful of this girl ... I really miss her. I feel like telling her I have missed her a lot the past months. But I feel it may backfire on me now!

ESP as we agreed to leave things be for a while.

Do u think its worth telling her i miss her? Or leaving it for a while?

[letmeout]

BPD people can hold grudges, forever, about anything real or imagined.  My ex would regurgitate these things anywhere/anytime for any reason or no reason. Its just crazy.

I've wondered why nons miss the intense emotional turmoil BPD people exhibit.

[Diana82]

So our last text conversation went like this:

She: "thanks for my hug. I'm really sorry I reacted, I know you didn't mean to attack me. You just have a knack for finding my insecurities! Hope you have a lovely day too".

Me: (a day later) "ok... I know you have insecurities but I have had no idea what triggers them. So that was a bit scary for me. If we can be friends some day, it would help if I know what can upset you. I'm pretty understanding "

No reply.

I'm not sure how long I should leave her be now!

How much space should u give a BPD?

I was thinking of contacting her again near Christmas. Or is giving too much space to a BPD a bad idea? Will she just view it a rejection even though she agreed we leave things be for a while?

[hellokitty4]

Hi hello kitty

Interesting stuff...

Have u ever confronted your friend about the avoidance?

If so, what was the reaction?

Yes I asked her the first few times it happened.  The answer has always been "you're right I did not want to see you" or "you're right I didn't want to talk to you." All because she was still upset with me for her own madeup reasons.  I have stopped asking and basically leave her alone until she is over her anger.  She gets angry... .I give her space. I don't keep in touch as much in the course of the day. I let her do the approaching and she usually does. Out of the blue she will send me a text or call and start up a conversation. In her last rage last week, she told me things that she didn't want in our friendship. So she's getting what she asked for. No hugging when we are around people in my aerobics class, no asking what she is doing, where she is going. The odd thing is, she is giving me the information without me asking at all. As for the hugging, it feels odd because we've always hugged before or after my class. Pretty soon, she will say something about the hugging when she realizes that she misses it. She told me in her anger that she feels suffocated by me and that I am hard to avoid because I am everywhere... .yes I am everywhere in her mind. 

[Diana82]

Ok so that's a bit different to mine...

So how much space is too much?

I have agreed to leave things be with her "for a while".

She still has me deleted off Facebook. But the last thing we did was apologise to each other and give virtual hugs etc and she was all apologetic.

And she told me I have a knack for finding her insecurities.

So... I have no idea what to do now. Contact her in a week?

Contact her in a month? Or wait for her to reach out?

I feel I am the one who initiated "time out" and she agreed after her lash out session...

[hellokitty4]

Ok so that's a bit different to mine...

So how much space is too much?

I have agreed to leave things be with her "for a while".

She still has me deleted off Facebook. But the last thing we did was apologise to each other and give virtual hugs etc and she was all apologetic.

And she told me I have a knack for finding her insecurities.

So... I have no idea what to do now. Contact her in a week?

Contact her in a month? Or wait for her to reach out?

I feel I am the one who initiated "time out" and she agreed after her lash out session...

I suggest that you just keep your distance.  You don't have to "disappear" for a week or a month.  It's not an all or nothing thing.  Keep you distance... .be there but not. In other words do less of what you have been doing for her. Let her come to you... .and she will. This needs a lot of patience and a lot of understanding. My BPD friend was feeling smothered [her words] by my texts alone. I thought that was strange but that is how she sees things and I cannot change that.  What I can do is change how I deal with her. Yes I miss our times together but I figure she misses it more intensely.  She just wants to do it in her own time.

Take it slow and relax.

[Diana82]

thank you for the advice.

Another weird thing she said during this lashing out over text session was: "I don't know what you're trying to get out of this. You like me, you hate me, you have inane conversations with me, you get mad at me and you get upset when I get mad! It's confusing!"


That comment was confusing.   It feels like she is talking more about herself here... could it be projection?

Because I haven't stopped liking her. And I certainly have never 'hated' her.

Also, what about this whole "you just have a knack for finding my insecurities!" comment from her? 

Is this somehow an excuse she is giving for lashing out at me over a misunderstood apology? Could it be true that I unintentionally trigger her insecurities and that's what she means?

[Diana82]

Hellokitty>  are you friends with your BPD now?

I was thinking in 2 weeks, I could send her a friendly text saying "Hey, how are you doing?  I was thinking of you today because I saw a circus show. It was amazing"  (I will be seeing the circus in 2 weeks and she loves the circus.) I thought that might be a good opportunity to text her a non-intrusive message... .

[hellokitty4]

thank you for the advice.

Another weird thing she said during this lashing out over text session was: "I don't know what you're trying to get out of this. You like me, you hate me, you have inane conversations with me, you get mad at me and you get upset when I get mad! It's confusing!"

This is projection.  She is projecting her feelings on to you. Classic BPD.

Just as my BPD said that "I am smothering her." When in actuality, she is the one asking me where I am, what I am doing, and it kills her not knowing who I am [which I am not] doing things with.

[hellokitty4]

Hellokitty>  are you friends with your BPD now?

I was thinking in 2 weeks, I could send her a friendly text saying "Hey, how are you doing?  I was thinking of you today because I saw a circus show. It was amazing"  (I will be seeing the circus in 2 weeks and she loves the circus.) I thought that might be a good opportunity to text her a non-intrusive message... .

We are still friends.  Since her last rage on 11/9, we have been texting regularly and talking on the phone. We have had conversations face to face but only for a few minutes.  We spend an hour in my aerobics class, me the instructor and she being one of my students. I asked her last Thursday if she could go to lunch with me... .fully prepared for her to say that she couldn't. She had said some very hurtful things on 11/9 and I think she's realizing it now. So with words unsaid we are taking it slow... .I'm not pushing for anything and neither is she. She has started doing what she would normally do like picking up my calls, responding to my texts, coming to my classes, letting me know what she is doing, etc. One of these days she will come around and spend time with me.  This is a cycle that I am pretty much used to now. Each time a rage happens I learn more how to handle it for the next time.

Taking it slow is working for us. Minimal contact is good because it doesn't create drama.

[Diana82]

Thanks... .

It seems she projects a lot on to me.  But I can’t quite figure out why.

I am not a close friend of hers... nor did we date very long (2 months only). It was an intense 2 months but I have not seen her for almost 3 months now.

Is it that the more intense the relationship you had/have, the more they project onto you?

So despite the fact that I haven't seen her for months- I still remain in her head as someone who got close and was sexually intimate?

[Diana82]

Another question (sorry but I find all of this fascinating!) 

Do BPDs tend to lash out at the nearest person due to other stresses in their life?  I’m starting to think that her lash out was fuelled by other stresses that happened that day to her. 

Because literally the day before, she was texting me all happily about her work and what she was doing. And said “Hope you are well   ”

And the next night it seemed like I had called her at a really bad time as she lashed out over text.

I am aware that she had started to see some other woman casually after seeing me and suddenly that woman was blocked on her Facebook that week she lashed out (by the look of it).  I was thinking that maybe she had had a fight with her (or someone else) and took it out on me. My innocent phone call apology somehow triggered her as she was already in a bad mood.

I remember when I was dating her, she had a fight with a friend and then started to try to get rid of me. She was really upset and taking out the fight with her friend on me. She then told me that she keeps “oscillating between manic and mediocre moods and she’s not fun to be around and I deserve better and someone fun"

Then the next day she seemed to have calmed down from this horrible mood and said “It wasn’t my intention... .I didn’t mean to upset you.  I was being really self-destructive and couldn'’t understand why you were being nice to me. I know I need to learn to learn to deal with someone who is kind and rational.  I miss you a bit extra today... ”   

The bit about “I couldn’t understand why you were being so nice to me” didn’t really make sense.  Do they feel undeserving of nice treatment?

And it has got me thinking, that I am a perhaps an easy outlet for her stresses. Perhaps because I am “nice” .

This woman has many friends so I find it hard to believe she treats them all this way! she'd have no friends surely!  I’m starting to think maybe she still has feelings for me, so that’s why she pushes/pulls and lashes out at me.

[Diana82]

Update... .

She replied to my text before and said this:

Truth is I dont know what you say/do I just dont feel myself around you and you make me act quite defensively. Im not a fighter so its sad and strange when I become one. I must need to learn some valuable "life skill" and then we'll revisit all of this! Til then: peace x


I don't know what to say!  What can one say to that. I somehow make her act defensively. :/

She isn't a fighter in person- but she's definitely passive aggressive.

Is the above something a BPD might feel? They get defensive with certain loved ones or friends and can't explain it at all?

[Diana82]

To me it sounds almost like attention seeking...

Like she expects me to pander to her insecurities and try to work out how I make her feel defensive etc. I feel like my emotions and nice nature are being taken advantage of.

I jus can't understand how 2 weeks ago she missed me.

Then now she says I find her insecurities and make her feel not herself!

... maybe she loves me still? Or had feelings still?