COMPARISON: Aspergers/autism spectrum disorder vs BPD
rockwood:
My 16 year old has Asperger's. My husband of 22 months is BPD. My son would NEVER speak to anyone the way my husband does. My son is extremely logical when he argues (I never "win". My husband typically makes no sense. I'm afraid of what my husband may say because he hurts me with lies and accusations. The only thing my son will ever hurt me with is the TRUTH! My son keeps me on my toes!
(By the way, Asperger's is a form of autism. It is not a personality disorder.)
Living with both in such close proximity makes it clear that there is little similarity.
One thing I've wondered about is the gender difference. Roughly 2/3 of borderlines are supposed to be female. Roughly 2/3 of Aspies are supposed to be male.
m_in_pain:
I'm "on the spectrum," meaning Aspergers. "High functioning" in some ways, but that's another story. I'm not a spokesperson for everyone with the diagnosis, and hate to risk appearing to pose as such by jumping in here.
Ian's description seemed right-on to me. I'd like to comment on his points, in the order he used. (Yep, that's mechanical, but humor me, sometimes that just works. )
1. Asperger's and autistic people don't get or misunderstand social cues
We can often learn. I'm incredibly motivated to learn. Yes, it's a bit like color-by-number. My system of working out social cues seems frighteningly analytical and dry - almost robotic - to people with whom I've dared to share parts of it. But it doesn't mean I don't care about people or their feelings. I'd argue that the amount of work I put into it is evidence I might just care _more_ than do normal-os who seem to have the social cues in their blood. And at times my system picks up on things that normal-os have missed.
2. Asperger's people may not understand societal norms or why people do things, whereas BPs understand and exploit the dynamics but lack the empathy
My take (gross generalization here, and my 'study sample is in no way scientifically valid) is that we Aspies are much more open about not understanding. I personally have no qualms in asking until I understand, or in challenging someone's assertion that things "just have to" be done a certain way until I understand why. This makes me sound really anti-social. I've found that many people react even more strongly to my lack of embarrassment about not understanding these things than they do to my not understanding them. As I understand it, BPDs are generally very sensitive to anything they'd construe as criticism or rejection.
A completely non-scientific hypothesis: maybe the part of BPDs that processes approval/criticism/rejection is super-active, and in Aspies it's dormant. Sure, nobody likes criticism. Yes, I get hurt feelings. For me, feeling hurt by criticism is accompanied by huge frustration with myself for having failed to synthesize cues. At the same time, I generally experience - separate from the hurt - a curiosity about the criticism. What's happening at the meta level, does the criticism offer me a chance to improve in some way, etc. (By now you're banging your head on a sharp object, begging someone to make me stop my analysis.)
When I voice the curiosity, I often get blamed for not "feeling" the criticism. I just can't blend the reactions - it's like they're happening in separate parts of me. Not dissociated, just like office work is going on in the office and plumbing is being done in the basement and chocolates are being made in the kitchen. For me, it's all connected, but I don't want chocolate on the paperwork.
3. Because of differences in social awareness BPs are much more able to appear outwardly normal or charming, have fairly complex interpersonal interactions (provided no intimacy). They also very capable of cunning an manipulation. In comparison, people with Autism spectrum disorders just seem to be clueless or not in touch with social realities.
Oh, the work it's taken to appear (mostly) normal. And doing that work _feels_ like manipulation. NeverGiveUp's point struck me. I don't like hurting people, and the idea of manipulation makes no sense to me. One real resistance I've had over the years to doing the work and learning techniques for synthesizing 'normal' is that it feels like cheating. Ask a BPD and a high-functioning Aspie who's done lots of work to integrate which one is manipulative, and they'll probably agree it's the Aspie. I've developed an ability to figure out what people are likely to find humorous, and to get them to laugh. Then I laugh, thinking it's hilarious that they're laughing. I get it but I don't.
4.Asperger's also is much different in terms emotional responses and self harm. They tend to not be all that self-destructive, impulsive or dysphoric from what I understand. Asperger's is not consider to be a shame-based disorder.
No big expansion to make here. I'd say that when I do get upset, it's very much about frustration with myself. And sometimes with normal-o's who just aren't playing fair, but I'm angry at the whole social thing rather than so much at them. When a BPD flips out, it's scary. Vengeful, venomous.
I can't say I identify so much with AJ mahari's experiences. Maybe having BPD changes the 'flavor' of Asperger's, no idea. I'd be interested in hearing more about how exactly she got her Aspie-dx and whether it's been confirmed.
Hmm, I'm guessing this wasn't especially relevant for the OP's question. I can't offer much on overlapping BPD/Aspie - maybe it's another of the myriad things I just don't get. I'm open to the idea that it's possible, but for now Rockwood's experience is exactly how I understand things.
M.
lasagna:
The major difference, as I see it, is that AS people would love to learn how to connect better socially. They are not happy living isolated lives. It's amazing how little they know socially compared with other kids. Like they take jokes literally. I have worked with them and find them endearing usually. They do lack empathy. There are times that I have needed to step in and say something privately like "It looks like people are not interested in hearing about butterflies (dinosaurs, Walt disney cartoons, rock, whatever) anymore. Why dont you ask a question about Joey's new dog ?(or pool, or bike or whatever)". Reciprocal conversation is a skill that needs to be learned. They honestly don't pick up on the social cues that people have lost interest in their topic of conversation.BUT THEY ARE AMENABLE TO CHANGE. BPDs think that everyone else has the problem. They don't see the need to make any changes. They can always find a new audience.
A major similarity is that their sensory input of social cues (facial expression, sound of voice) is altered. The AS kids just don't see it till it's pointed out and learned (Storyboarding works well with these kids. Just learning simple social interaction repetitively). BPDs tend to see social cues as negative and victimizing. They leave little opportunity for learning new interpretations. Unless they are in therapy, with meds to calm down their emotions.
m_in_pain:
Until my early 20s, I thought that if people were offended by what I'd said, it was a litmus test and we wouldn't have had anything to talk about anyway. Then I slowly recognized that I was hurting other people, albeit inadertently, which was definitely not what I wanted. The option to be able to communicate on a wider range of wavelengths became important to me. Around the time Asperger's became an offical diagnosis, I took a great job and almost immediately alienated my boss' boss, the company president. My boss (who'd apparently recognized the Aspie thing when I interviewed) pushed me to talk to a doctor, who made the official diagnosis, which turned out to be so my boss could justify not firing me.
Years later, I recognized how many opportunities I'd thrown out the window at that company by insisting that top work should be more than enough. Cargo pants, hiking boots and baggy sweaters in a suit environment. Cheerfully working weekends when needed but refusing to go to happy hours or events. Stupidly thinking mismatches between press releases and my understanding of clinical trial results was something that could be explained, and asking too many questions. I wince a bit, and I also fondly admire the dorky, optimistic kid I was. Would I put her in the suits I've learned to wear?
Most of my constant second-guessing myself has been around trying to get communication right in order to avoid hurting people. It's really interesting that you point out the self-esteem thing. All my life, various people have told me to work on my self esteem. At some point I wondered whether I was missing signals and they were trying to tell me I _should_ have low self-esteem. It didn't really seem to be a compliment. Lately, I've been learning more about "adult child" issues, and can't identify when people talk about need for approval. It's a strange twist, looking at having had NPD parents and an N husband. All of them were desperate for me to kiss up for their approval, and I just never ... .that blows my mind. All of them were fixated on appearance - which is the very last area in which I accepted the value of fitting in and figured out how to do it my way. I must have frustrated all of them to no end. Strange.
LavaMeetsSea:
PEOPLE WITH ASPERGER'S DO NOT AUTOMATICALLY LACK EMPATHY.
They've got problems with interpreting social cues up the wazoo, but that's not the same as not caring. Do some of them, after years of being told they lack empathy, decide to give it up and say "Screw it, I'm not good at it anyway?" Sure. But the stereotype of individuals with autism or aspergers lacking empathy was perpetrated by Anna Freud way back in the early 1900's. Know what else she said about autism? That it was caused by cold or bad mothering. Oopsy. Turns out she was wrong. Can you imagine the guilt and pain this admittedly well-intended and frequently brilliant woman caused countless mothers with that false statement? I've seen some of it first-hand. I've also worked with dozens of children with autism and Aspergers and not one of them, not one, lacked empathy. Understanding? You bet. But empathy? Oh the stories I could tell... .
You see, the way our brains record and interpret facial expressions, languages, and other sensory input is just different. We can see the differences in MRI's, but explaining them is still a work in progress. When there are such basic differences with fairly simple abstract patterning (say ascribing an emotion to a face in a photograph - lights up a totally different part of the brain for individuals with an Autism Spectrum Disorder) then adding the complexity of human relationships, learning to read and write, to make friends, all of that is innately harder for anyone with a developmental disorder, but this one is particularly isolating. Piaget's work on the developing moral judgement of children is relevant here. Group pretend play can be overwhelmingly complex and disorienting for a child with aspergers or autism, and yet, without learning to extend one's own internal state or to "project" emotions on one's peers, and then shape that knowledge with feedback from the subject, how does any of us ever "empathize" with anyone else? Is it "manipulative" to use knowledge of a person to act in ways that influence them? What if that knowledge is as simple as a common language, and I'm asking someone to tell me the time? That's not manipulative, m_in_pain, unless you're going by strict denotation. Connotatively, though, if a person is reasonably aware of the terms of an exchange, then it's not seen as manipulation. We tend to reserve that word for literal or emotional deceit and entrapment. Just saying.
Kids with autism or aspergers need extra pretend play and social integration, sure. All kids need it, they just need more. But the irony is that many of them grow up feeling so lonely, that when they DO find someone that "gets" them, they are the most loyal, grateful, affectionate, soft-hearted cuddlers a behaviorist can work with. "I want talk better please." If they didn't care about people, why would they be so eager to work at connecting with them? And they are. They really are.
Navigation
[0] Message Index
[#] Next page
[*] Previous page