April 24, 2014, 03:08:02 AM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Today's Feature: WORKSHOP: Do you know the art of WiseMind?  Learn more
Moderators: DreamGirl, P.F.Change, Rapt Reader
Advisors: an0ught, heartandwhole, livednlearned, pessim-optimist, Surnia, Waverider, winston72
Ambassadors: crumblingdad, DreamFlyer99, growing_wings, Kwamina, learning_curve74, maxsterling, maxen, Mutt, peaceplease, scallops, Turkish
Guidelines: Terms of Service, Abbreviations
  Home Blog   Boards   Help Login Register  
What is this?
Think About It... An individual’s overall life functioning is linked closely to his level of emotional maturity or differentiation. People select ... partners who have the same level of emotional maturity.
Emotional immaturity manifests in unrealistic needs and expectations. ~ Murray Bowen, M.D.
97
Pages: [1]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Need suggestions with ultimatum / boundaries  (Read 684 times)
Lost in Love

Offline Offline

Posts: 12


« on: December 11, 2013, 03:37:06 PM »

We have hit an all time low and without getting into too much detail, I'm only willing to stay with my BPD fiance (after what happened during his last rage) if he agrees to get help. I will also get help but I can't work on the relationship if he's not working on himself. I know this is his decision and that I can only help him, I'm not responsible for him. But how do I put forth what really is an ultimatum without triggering him because for me, it's my boundary. Hope that makes sense smiley

Thank you, in advance, for any help or suggestions.
Logged
maxsterling
AMBASSADOR
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Home Board: SO-Undecided
Posts: 488



« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2013, 04:27:48 PM »

I am no expert on boundaries, and have big issues setting them myself.  But, I assuming the boundary you want to set is, "I will only stay in this relationship if you seek help".  Is this correct?

As I understand, boundaries need consequences if they are broken, otherwise there is no point. 

So maybe saying, "I love you. This relationship is important to me.  I want to work on this relationship so that what happened never happens again.  But that means we must work on ourselves, and I can't stay in this relationship unless you are willing to do the work on yourself, too."  And if that triggers him into a rage, I think that is a pretty good indication he would violate your boundary anyway, so then maybe is your cue to act on the consequence, and end things. 

I think many of us should be asking ourselves things like:
Can I live like this if my partner never changes? 
Do the positives outweigh the negatives?
Am I willing to stick to consequences if boundaries are broken?
Am I happier or as happy within the relationship than out of the relationship?

Those are the questions I am asking myself right now. 
Logged

GENERAL ANNOUNCEMENT: Are you on the right board?
This board is for analyzing and making the decision to either continue working on your relationship or to leave it. If you have already please advance to "L3 Leaving" or the "L4 Staying" board.
All members living with a pwBPD should learn to use the Stop the Bleeding tools - boundaries, timeouts and other basic tools - to better manage the day to day interactions with your partner. If you have questions on any of the tools, feel free to go over to Staying: Improving a Relationship with a Borderline Partner and ask for help. :-)
Lost in Love

Offline Offline

Posts: 12


« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2013, 04:51:46 PM »

Thank you MaxSterling. I like how you worded that. He is very receptive to "because" (because I love you and because I want to work on this relationship... ) It will be hard but it is the only option. Well, the only healthy option. Part of it is timing but I'm going to just feel it out and talk when he's able to listen (I can usually tell when he's open to talking) hopefully he will take me up on my offer to help get him help and take it seriously. Because I am serious about it. It hurts to think of him not going and having to end it but it will only get worse if he isn't getting help. I can't live like this if he never changes. I am very strong but over years and years, that would be unbearable and probably really wear me down. Not what I want to sign up for! Thanks again smiley
Logged
karma_gal
**
Offline Offline

Home Board: FM-Healing
Posts: 157


« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2013, 08:05:19 PM »

Thank you MaxSterling. I like how you worded that. He is very receptive to "because" (because I love you and because I want to work on this relationship... ) It will be hard but it is the only option. Well, the only healthy option. Part of it is timing but I'm going to just feel it out and talk when he's able to listen (I can usually tell when he's open to talking) hopefully he will take me up on my offer to help get him help and take it seriously. Because I am serious about it. It hurts to think of him not going and having to end it but it will only get worse if he isn't getting help. I can't live like this if he never changes. I am very strong but over years and years, that would be unbearable and probably really wear me down. Not what I want to sign up for! Thanks again smiley

I don't have anything to add, really, except I wanted to tell you that I think it's so awesome that you not only saw the red flags BEFORE marriage, but that you also realize something needs done to address them and are willing to walk away if he decides not to seek help.  So many of us were not that lucky, or in my case smart, and you are already so far ahead of the game by simply knowing what you are up against, what your boundaries are, and strong enough to enforce the consequences.  I hope for your sake that your fiance gets the help he needs to allow you to move forward... but will be the first to tell you that if he decides NOT to get help, getting out sooner rather than later will save you years of heartache and stress.  I will watch for your update to see how this works out for you, and will keep you in my thoughts in the meantime that your talk goes well!   
Logged
Turkish
AMBASSADOR
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Home Board: SO-Leaving
Posts: 2080



« Reply #4 on: December 12, 2013, 10:18:12 AM »

We have hit an all time low and without getting into too much detail, I'm only willing to stay with my BPD fiance (after what happened during his last rage) if he agrees to get help. I will also get help but I can't work on the relationship if he's not working on himself. I know this is his decision and that I can only help him, I'm not responsible for him. But how do I put forth what really is an ultimatum without triggering him because for me, it's my boundary. Hope that makes sense smiley

Thank you, in advance, for any help or suggestions.

Hi LiL,

This isn't my usual board, but I thought I'd drop by to see how you are doing. You are doing a hard thing focusing on the here and now, but I'd encourage you to think about the future children you say you want to have, as stressors such as kids add a whole other dynamic into the mix. They did with mine, especially our second child. For me, I feel that I have had to be the "adult" like never before. Take care...

Turkish
Logged


Lost in Love

Offline Offline

Posts: 12


« Reply #5 on: December 14, 2013, 07:31:10 PM »

Thank you everyone for you support and caring. It really means a lot to me. Update is that is when I went back, he was still showing signs of aggression so I grabbed the last of my valuables, including the pets and ran for my life. I went back to VA and am staying with his parents for a few days while we figure this out. His parents are super supportive and know I had no choice to do what I needed to do. They also know he needs help and knows that it must come from them, not me. I finally told him I'm here and I want him to come here for the holidays and we can go from there. He has admitted that he can't control himself and said he's afraid to leave the apartment because he's afraid he won't get back. He also said he's sorry I don't feel safe with him. To me, that's a start. I know he has broken down a few times with his mom and dad but I think he needed that. He needs to feel rock bottom and that he needs help before he can agree to get help. It wouldn't help if we just forced him into therapy. But as he seems to be asking for help, that's a glimpse of hope. I also know thats how this disease works and without therapy, it will get just continue to get worse. So, although I'm glad we are moving in a direction toward therapy, if he gets here and refuses, that will be it for me. I will NOT move forward without therapy and/or medication. He will have to understand this has traumatized me and that he will have to be open to therapy for the rest of our lives if need be. I'm not really getting my hopes up though because like I said, I don't know what's going to happen. I am just taking it one moment at a time and trying to keep myself safe and healthy in the meantime. Its been great being here. I didn't realize just how much help I needed until I had it (from his parents).

Thank you again for your support.

As for kids... we'll have to deal with that in therapy before we decide to move forward. We are not anywhere near having kids right now but I do think with therapy and/or meds, he could thrive. I know he would be an amazing dad but I know that could be a big tripper and the BPD would have to be under control with meds/therapy. Again, one bridge at a time to cross.
Logged
Surnia
BOARD ADVISOR
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 3838



« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2013, 02:18:58 AM »

Hi Lost in Love

Great you found the courage and the moment to grab you things and leave for a safe place!  Doing the right thing

Yes, you cannot force someone to therapy. He needs to come to the conclusion himself.

Keep going your path staying safe and reaching out for support.  smiley
Logged

“Don’t shrink. Don’t puff up. Stand on your sacred ground.”  BrenĂ© Brown
Lost in Love

Offline Offline

Posts: 12


« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2013, 10:40:51 AM »

Thank you. I will look through the message boards and I know we may just have to do a little research but does anyone have advise on getting the right type of help he needs? Is this an inpatient thing at first? A mood stabilizer and then therapy? A bit of both? I know that only a Dr can diagnose him but just wanting a little info on what to expect. Thanks.
Logged
Surnia
BOARD ADVISOR
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 3838



« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2013, 11:52:23 AM »

Hi Lost in Love

I can understand that you want to know what to expect about therapy and there is probably some hope connected for a positive outcome.

There is the saying that each big trip is starting with one step, and I think the first big step would be that your fiance would have a appointment with a psychiatrist or a therapist.
Logged

“Don’t shrink. Don’t puff up. Stand on your sacred ground.”  BrenĂ© Brown
Turkish
AMBASSADOR
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Home Board: SO-Leaving
Posts: 2080



« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2013, 07:50:29 PM »

Thank you. I will look through the message boards and I know we may just have to do a little research but does anyone have advise on getting the right type of help he needs? Is this an inpatient thing at first? A mood stabilizer and then therapy? A bit of both? I know that only a Dr can diagnose him but just wanting a little info on what to expect. Thanks.

Hi, here is a short article that might provide you some perspective... not sure if anyone posted this for you yet, or if you found it:

Helping a loved one with BPD seek treatment
Logged


Lost in Love

Offline Offline

Posts: 12


« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2013, 06:40:50 PM »

Could definitely use a little more advise. Fiance's dad seems to think that telling him he needs to see a therapist needed to come from him. He thought anything coming from me would be an insult. I can see how that would be true and I'm grateful for the help. I had already said something in the past but he has had a few conversations with him since I arrived. Fiance is refusing to leave Boston and demanding I come home. I think he's desperately grasping to whatever life we had there but I don't feel safe with that. Who's to say he won't be furious at me for leaving and attack me again. It's not an option for me. I need to make a decision about what to do. I know BPD need direct communication. But I don't want to give too many detail about my plan so he can't use it against me. Do I let his dad try one more time and just ignore him or do I be direct about the fact that I'm not coming home before Christmas and that I am not leaving him but if he does not agree to help, I can't continue on with this relationship.

P.S. He will take that as abandonment as well. So exhausted. Need off the roller coaster. If he stays in Boston till after the holidays, I'll have to have him removed. It's my apartment so I guess I can do that but will not be pretty and will certainly be the end I'm sure.
Logged
waverider
BOARD ADVISOR
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3195


If YOU don't change, things will stay the same


« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2013, 10:09:21 PM »

Good to see that you enacted your boundary consequences. It is often necessary, as no matter how nicely they are phrased it takes a clash to establish them. This is why you need to be clear in your own mind that you can go through with them.

As far as realization some kind of treatment is needed, it needs to come from within themselves. Coming from outside, regardless of who, triggers a defensive denial making it even harder.

Attending therapy to comply with a boundary is still a long way short of doing so out of the personal commitment required. It may not work out first time, though as Surnia points out you need to start somewhere.

Depending where you are there are many types of therapies, from full programs to simple general therapy. Access and affordability will vary too. For many people general therapy is required first to get to that level of commitment that specialized therapy will be more effective when they are ready.

My partner is willing and keen to do therapy, but yet hasn't the commitment skills to persevere, so a specialized course would be wasted. Loves the Support and Empathy bit, but does a runner as son as the Truth bit comes out.  Needs therapy to learn how to attend therapy if you like  rolleyes

Which ever path someone takes it is a long haul with lots of up and downs on the way
Logged

  Reality is shared and open to debate, feelings are individual and real
Lost in Love

Offline Offline

Posts: 12


« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2013, 10:28:57 PM »

Right, but how do I know when it's "safe" to talk with him. I can appreciate he wants to resolve this on our own, at our own table (his words) but I need to think of my safety first. Not sure what to do. Do I have a phone convo? If he refuses to come to VA, do I give him 2 week notice before coming home? I would love to resolve this like adults but he's a 3 year old in a 33 year old body.   

8 years ago, he went through rehab and there was an intervention thing between his ex girlfriend and family. I can understand his apprehension to come home because he's afraid he won't get back (his words).

I know these are all my decisions but I appreciate any suggestions. Dealing with this disease is pretty new to me.
Logged
Surnia
BOARD ADVISOR
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 3838



« Reply #13 on: December 17, 2013, 12:10:10 AM »

Hi Lost in Love

Yes, your safety first! I want underline this.  Doing the right thing

What about proposing him a therapeutic separation?
Logged

“Don’t shrink. Don’t puff up. Stand on your sacred ground.”  BrenĂ© Brown
Theo41
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 126



« Reply #14 on: December 17, 2013, 01:35:03 AM »

Lots of good advise here. I like the way max sterling wrote about this situation. I recently got some advise on boundries which was very profound for me. " Boundries are for us. " So, if your boundry is that if he doesn't go for counseling/treatment you are breaking off the engagement/ relationship, then you use max starlings words to say that. It's direct,kind, non inflammatory, totally reasonable and unobjectionable. If he blows up and doesn't get help, then it's up to you to enforce the boundry and leave the relationship. Keep in mind that if you establish the boundry and don't leave you have lost credibility and are in a weaker position in the relationship ... and... if he does suffer from BPD he will probably use all this to manipulate you even more. The bottom line is that you don't even have to draw a line in the sand. Ask him to go for help. If he won't then you have to decided whether or not you will act on your boundry and leave. It's not his boundry... it's yours:) I hope that made sense and helps. Theo
Logged
Lost in Love

Offline Offline

Posts: 12


« Reply #15 on: December 17, 2013, 07:38:10 PM »

Thanks Theo. It does make sense. And I'm clear on that boundary. I WILL end it if he refuses treatment. I guess what I didn't think of when running out of the house in a hurry is when and how to go back. At some point, I'm going to have to have a conversation with him and what I need to understand is that it's going to take time to trust him again.

I'm also realizing that getting him into therapy may be necessary for him to realize he needs therapy. I want him to want it but he may need a little push to get him there (i.e. my ultimatum). We need professional help to move forward.
Logged
waverider
BOARD ADVISOR
***
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
Posts: 3195


If YOU don't change, things will stay the same


« Reply #16 on: December 17, 2013, 09:34:52 PM »

It is a hard chicken and egg situation for sure.

As long as there is conflict the easier it is to project blame onto you and hence not take responsibility for it.

Try avoiding unnecessary conflict by using actions rather than words is better where possible ( easy to say and hard to do). For example enacting boundaries rather than stating them
Logged

  Reality is shared and open to debate, feelings are individual and real
dontknow2
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 135



« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2013, 06:44:28 PM »

Hello Lost in Love,

1) For your sanity if this plays out, I wanted to give you a heads up about a possible scenario. I put up the same therapy boundary with my ex 2 years ago (16 years into our relationship). He agreed. Then, it took 6 months of going back and forth between therapy options. Once he got into therapy, he was quick to find his therapist's flaws. Now, he continually says "he knows more than they do" so it is a waste of his time going forward.

2) My ex was less defensive and willing to listen when I was already in therapy myself. This was evidence to him that I at least believed in it and that I wasn't too good for it. That said, this backfired later as he used it as a reason why I am at fault in the relationship (my craziness). So, it is a double-edged sword.

3) Instead of using the "I will only stay with you if you get therapy" boundary, I wish I focused more on what I needed in the relationship that I wasn't getting (and separating until the needs are met or progress was established)... then got external help helping him realize therapy was the only option (but on his own). Therapy is now this thing that he has to do; like a punishment in his mind and could take him years before he'll reconsider. Now, I am stuck.

4) I don't recommend listing medication in your boundary or try to diagnose him. Let him and his therapist get to that point on their own.

Stay strong  Empathy
Logged
Lost in Love

Offline Offline

Posts: 12


« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2013, 06:16:43 PM »

Thank you. Those are some great insights. I appreciate it.

I definitely am planning to let the therapist do all the work (with regards to telling him what his diagnosis is and what needs to change or if he needs meds). I would also like to actively try to forgive, be patient and understanding outside of therapy and try to deal with the real issues in therapy (not on our own).

What I didn't anticipate is that I am just as nervous, if not more so, that if we were to just break up. Moving forward is scary, either way. But at least if it still is not going to work, I know I gave it everything I could. All I ask, for the time being, is that we are both willing to work on our relationship. It appears that way but I would be lying if I said I wasn't nervous and that we both have a lot of work ahead of us.
Logged
dontknow2
**
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
Posts: 135



« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2013, 07:29:37 PM »

People are scared to commit in a relationship when everything is cushy... makes sense to be even scarier with a long road of hard work. Take good care of yourself.
Logged
Pages: [1]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Top Spacer
Choosing a path
Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.10 | SMF © 2006-2010, Simple Machines LLC Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!