Home page of BPDFamily.com, online relationship supportMember registration here
March 28, 2024, 06:20:48 PM *
Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.

Login with username, password and session length
Board Admins: Kells76, Once Removed, Turkish
Senior Ambassadors: Cat Familiar, EyesUp, SinisterComplex
  Help!   Boards   Please Donate Login to Post New?--Click here to register  
bing
Near or in break-up mode?
What Does it Take to Be in a Relationship
Is Your Relationship Breaking Down?
Escaping Conflict and the Karpman Drama Triangle
Emotional Blackmail: Fear, Obligation and Guilt (FOG)
95
Pages: [1]   Go Down
  Print  
Author Topic: Willfulness and Willingness  (Read 535 times)
united for now
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Gay, lesb
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Other
Relationship status: separated
Posts: 8708

Talking about solutions create solutions


« on: January 19, 2014, 09:53:06 PM »

Willfulness

~ is sitting on your hands when action is needed, refusing to make any changes that are needed.

~ is giving up

~ is the opposite of "doing what works"

~ is trying to fix every situation

~ is refusing to tolerate the moment

Willfulness means that you are still struggling against accepting the reality that your loved one is mentally ill.

Willingness

~ is doing just what is needed in each situation. It is focusing on effectiveness

~ is listening carefully to your wise mind and acting from your inner self

~ is allowing into your awareness your connection to the universe - to the earth, the floor you are standing on, to the chair you are sitting on, to the person you are talking to


We tend to get trapped in willfulness, often times we feel we are justified in how we feel. Willfulness isn't effective at bringing people closer together though. Willfulness only creates distance and distrust.

So when you reflect on how you interact with others - are you showing willingness or willfulness?

What part of willingness are you having the hardest time doing?


Logged

Change your perceptions and you change your life.  Nothing changes without changes
RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING
This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

Tolou
****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 292


« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2014, 03:12:13 AM »

For willingness... .

It would be doing just what is needed, instead doing extra and more.  How about just giving someone the help they need, instead trying to "fix" things, it isn't my job.

Nice post
Logged
Rapt Reader
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Child
Relationship status: married
Posts: 3626



WWW
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2014, 04:08:55 PM »

Willfulness

~ is sitting on your hands when action is needed, refusing to make any changes that are needed.

~ is giving up

~ is the opposite of "doing what works"

~ is trying to fix every situation

~ is refusing to tolerate the moment

Willfulness means that you are still struggling against accepting the reality that your loved one is mentally ill.

I see Willfulness as ego-driven; when I know my BPD loved one cannot help the way he/she feels but I don't care. I get angry or offended, and I want to lash out back because it "feels good" even if it exacerbates the situation.

I know in my heart that I can change things by using my understanding of my loved one's disorder to handle the situation better (even if just by walking away from a fight or listening with empathy and being compassionately silent), but I won't. Because I just have to get my opinion or argument aired... .if it leads to escalation of the situation, well, so be it 


Willingness

~ is doing just what is needed in each situation. It is focusing on effectiveness

~ is listening carefully to your wise mind and acting from your inner self

~ is allowing into your awareness your connection to the universe - to the earth, the floor you are standing on, to the chair you are sitting on, to the person you are talking to

I see Willingness as being heart- (or even soul-) driven... .I'm not just looking to be vindicated or proven right or finding satisfaction from "winning" the argument. I want the relationship to thrive, to be healthy, to move forward in a good and satisfying direction for both of us. I want to be loving to my loved one; I want to be understanding and empathetic. I'm not looking to be taken advantage of or harmed, but I do want to get out of my own ego-need to be "right" and do what is best for the relationship.


We tend to get trapped in willfulness, often times we feel we are justified in how we feel. Willfulness isn't effective at bringing people closer together though. Willfulness only creates distance and distrust.

So when you reflect on how you interact with others - are you showing willingness or willfulness?

What part of willingness are you having the hardest time doing?

I think that the hardest part of Willingness is letting my ego take a back seat to my heart (or soul). It's feeling that I'm strong enough, and balanced enough--in my opinion of myself--to let go of needing to "win" or be "right" to feel whole. I need to be whole as a human being without beating my loved one in an argument or conflict.

Getting to this point happens for me more often these days; I don't react in a knee-jerk angry fashion with perceived slights as often as before. I've learned to not take stuff personally so much anymore; I realize that BPD behaviors are more about my loved one who has them, rather than about me.

Today my Husband (who has BPD traits and often says things rather impulsively), responded to my telling him that I'd lost another pound since last week, without thinking. I've been dieting, and each pound and half pound lost is monumental to me  Being cool (click to insert in post)  So when I proudly said that I'd just weighed myself and I'd lost another pound, he congratulated me and then very happily put his hand on my stomach and said "this is next to go", with a smile! Yikes! 

Of course I was offended, but instead of getting really mad (like I would've last year, before learning the stuff on this site), I just said with a smile, "I'd like to just celebrate my accomplishment here, Okay?" And I actually was detached enough from his strange reaction that he realized what he'd done and said, "Wow... .I'm really insensitive, aren't I? I'm really sorry... ." and he gave me a hug.

Last year this would've sent me into a real hurt place, and we would've had a pretty bad day because my reaction would've angered him because I'm "too sensitive" and therefore he couldn't "say anything!" But today was a great day, and we've been very happy and easy with each other with no stress... .Believe me, this is an accomplishment for both of us, and it happened because of my learning not to get so huffed up with his impulsive comments... .

Logged

waverider
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Male
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner
Relationship status: married 8 yrs, together 16yrs
Posts: 7405


If YOU don't change, things will stay the same


« Reply #3 on: September 08, 2014, 06:56:07 AM »

Willfulness is more reactionary state without any real structure or objectivity, it is often out of natural instinct

Willingness comes from a greater awareness of the reality of any situation. A true appreciation of cause and effect. It takes a degree of objectivity.

With a clear mind you can work towards more "willingness" in your actions.

The first part, and most confronting, is to accept your own flaws in a way that is productive and not destructive. ie acceptance of your shortfalls without feeling lesser because of that acceptance
Logged

  Reality is shared and open to debate, feelings are individual and real
vortex of confusion
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 3234



« Reply #4 on: September 08, 2014, 10:39:01 AM »

I see Willfulness as ego-driven; when I know my BPD loved one cannot help the way he/she feels but I don't care. I get angry or offended, and I want to lash out back because it "feels good" even if it exacerbates the situation.

Excerpt
I see Willingness as being heart- (or even soul-) driven... .I'm not just looking to be vindicated or proven right or finding satisfaction from "winning" the argument. I want the relationship to thrive, to be healthy, to move forward in a good and satisfying direction for both of us. I want to be loving to my loved one; I want to be understanding and empathetic. I'm not looking to be taken advantage of or harmed, but I do want to get out of my own ego-need to be "right" and do what is best for the relationship.

I am pondering willingness and willfulness and am thinking about it in the context of my relationship with my husband. For a good chunk of our relationship, I feel like I was in a place of willingness. Somewhere along the way, that willingness turned into willfulness. It was a gradual change that occurred because my self esteem was slowly eroded by the little things. I didn't need to be right but I did need to NOT be nitpicked. The little things that my husband did seemed so inconsequential and small that I didn't even think that they were a problem. It only became a problem after years of those little bitty things adding up. I think part of the change to willfulness happened when I felt like I had no control over myself. For me, I feel like the major problem has been that I want to control ME rather than feeling like other people are trying to control me.

I am wondering how one can shift from being willful back to being willing. I am not seeing how the relationship can thrive if I feel like I am the one doing all of the work. I don't necessarily want to be right but I do want to feel heard and I do want to feel like an autonomous individual.

Logged
MissyM
*****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 702


« Reply #5 on: September 08, 2014, 02:01:37 PM »

Excerpt
We tend to get trapped in willfulness, often times we feel we are justified in how we feel. Willfulness isn't effective at bringing people closer together though. Willfulness only creates distance and distrust.

This has been the shift taking place in my marriage.  Our DBT therapist talks about willingness a lot.  I think with all of the addiction recovery my dBPDh and I have been doing there has been almost an encouragement of willfulness, for both of us.  It has been such a strong stance of me not mothering my dBPDh, which has caused me to be unwilling to reach him where he is at.  He has had a strong encouragement to not behave as a child, which has caused him to be unwilling to be kind and helpful.  As we are both shifting our view to willingness and radical acceptance, we are better able to be a team. 
Logged
vortex of confusion
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 3234



« Reply #6 on: September 08, 2014, 07:13:42 PM »

Excerpt
We tend to get trapped in willfulness, often times we feel we are justified in how we feel. Willfulness isn't effective at bringing people closer together though. Willfulness only creates distance and distrust.

This has been the shift taking place in my marriage.  Our DBT therapist talks about willingness a lot.  I think with all of the addiction recovery my dBPDh and I have been doing there has been almost an encouragement of willfulness, for both of us.  It has been such a strong stance of me not mothering my dBPDh, which has caused me to be unwilling to reach him where he is at.  He has had a strong encouragement to not behave as a child, which has caused him to be unwilling to be kind and helpful.  As we are both shifting our view to willingness and radical acceptance, we are better able to be a team. 

Would you mind expanding on this a bit? I am reading that you had to be willful for a while (focused on self without a lot of regard for the relationship) so that at some point you could shift to willingness.

Right now, I am trying to figure out how to get to that place of willingness because I am still trying to process and accept everything for what it is rather than what I want it to be.
Logged
Rapt Reader
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Child
Relationship status: married
Posts: 3626



WWW
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2014, 06:52:51 PM »

I am wondering how one can shift from being willful back to being willing. I am not seeing how the relationship can thrive if I feel like I am the one doing all of the work. I don't necessarily want to be right but I do want to feel heard and I do want to feel like an autonomous individual.



I can only speak for myself, and the change that went on in my mind when I realized that my willfulness--needing to "be heard" turned out to actually be more important to me than needing to "be right", actually--was just keeping the hamster wheel of my husband's dysregulation and my subsequent escalation of it rolling along.

What really put a stop to my own behaviors that kept the wheel turning so fast, was when I learned that I needed to stop JADEing (Justifying, Arguing, Defending myself, and Explaining myself), during one of his dysregulations (or when he's just complaining about something I supposedly did that doesn't make sense to me). I learned how well that worked the very first time I stopped doing that, and saw the whole cycle we had constantly engaged in change that day. The positive reinforcement for me--the quicker resolution to his dysregulation and the subsequent peace in our relationship--has been enough to keep me mindful during his times of dysregulation.

Here's an example that just happened recently. One of the major sticky wickets in our relationship revolves around (I'll call it) intimacy. As a guy, my husband is "needier" in this department than I am, and more sensitive to the "signals" that I supposedly send out to him than I am. (This is going to be long   )

That night, I'd been prepared for an intimate night, and was my old normal, friendly self around him, and he was friendly too. After showering earlier that night, he was on the phone with a sibling so I decided to not put on the silky nightgown that I'd planned on, after my own shower, and threw on a little tee shirt and shorts. Still cute, but not sexy. I decided against sexy because I knew I'd be walking around the house doing things while waiting for him to get off the phone.

When he got off the phone, I was prepared to change into the nightgown, but instead of heading in that direction, my husband said he was hungry and needed a snack. Okay... .So I stayed in those clothes and got a little snack too. He wanted us to eat them on the screened-in porch and listen to music, so we did that. All nice. All friendly. All sweet. And while he was eating his snack and we were listening to music, I decided to check my Kindle tablet, and got caught up in my email.

All of a sudden, he decided it was late and he needed to go to bed, and shut off the music and brushed his teeth. I hurried up and put the Kindle away and went into the bedroom as he was getting into bed and he said he was tired. Just tired. And I could tell by his tone of voice and the look on his face that he was angry. I ignored that and instead climbed into bed to... .you know... .Anyhow, he blew up at me. Was very angry. Said that all night long I didn't give him any indication of being interested, I didn't do ONE thing to suggest that I was interested, and that he felt that way and nothing I could say would change his mind. And his body language was very belligerent.

I said "Okay... ." And I stayed in bed with him. Even stayed right close next to him. And said nothing else. Now, I wanted to tell him that we'd had a great night, that I'd taken the shower and we'd had a very sweet night, and that I couldn't understand where all of this anger came from. But I didn't want to do any JADEing, so I didn't. That night he stayed facing away from me, with me facing his back, right next to him, trying really hard to figure out what precipitated all of this dysregulation.

I figured it out (after not sleeping for the first couple of hours): I'd put on that tee shirt and cutoffs instead of my silky nightgown, and the visual cue to him that I was a willing partner that night never happened. AND: I taken out my Kindle, and that was a negative visual cue for him. Once I realized it, I so badly wanted to laugh out loud, to shake him awake and explain all my reasons for not wearing that nightgown earlier in the evening. But I didn't. I kept quiet, and could feel him slowly releasing his anger, though he never did "wake up" that night or talk to me. By morning, everything was fine and he was actually very loving to me (I think because he'd had time to think about it without my input, and felt guilty for his reaction).

Now, this has been a 40-year issue with us... .If my husband is dysregulating, it almost always has to do with lack of perceived intimacy on my part, or something close to it. And when he dysregulated about that particular issue in the past, his anger and separation from me could last for days, not hours. But since I've learned to detach from his anger, and not feel that I have to have my side of the story heard, his anger ends quicker, and in a much better way. In fact, since I've learned these techniques, it actually hasn't even happened very often anymore--when it does, I'm quite shocked and even have to remind myself: "Oh, yeah... .this is a dysregulation and I need not to JADE, no matter how much I want him to understand my side of this situation... ."

It turns out, as much as I would like to always have my side of the story heard, trying to do that when he's dysregulating (when he's not doing that, it's all fine and I can generally just use validation, S.E.T. and compassion in my conversations with him and things hum along smoothly) is really impossible. For some reason, arguing my point is taken as invalidation of his feelings, and explaining my position or reasons for things just escalates his anger over and over. I can't explain why, but that is what happens. And I do want my husband to not have his feelings hurt, and for us to have a loving, happy, peaceful marriage. So I mindfully don't JADE, and I let him sulk, and I don't even feel hurt by it anymore. I let it sail away into the sunset so that we can connect again later... .

Logged

vortex of confusion
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 3234



« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2014, 07:26:18 PM »

It turns out, as much as I would like to always have my side of the story heard, trying to do that when he's dysregulating (when he's not doing that, it's all fine and I can generally just use validation, S.E.T. and compassion in my conversations with him and things hum along smoothly) is really impossible. For some reason, arguing my point is taken as invalidation of his feelings, and explaining my position or reasons for things just escalates his anger over and over. I can't explain why, but that is what happens. And I do want my husband to not have his feelings hurt, and for us to have a loving, happy, peaceful marriage. So I mindfully don't JADE, and I let him sulk, and I don't even feel hurt by it anymore. I let it sail away into the sunset so that we can connect again later... .

How do you get to the point where the sulking doesn't bother you? I have been trying some of the things mentioned in the lessons and in other threads for the last week or two. I set a few boundaries and for the last two weeks he has been in a funk. He says he is in a funk but I think it is sulking because he isn't getting what he wants. I am setting boundaries. I am not engaging in conversations that will probably lead to disagreements and I am refusing to talk about certain topics. Posting here has helped to keep me from getting to bothered or worked up about things.

Last night, he got what he wanted and today he is suddenly out of his funk. I so badly want to talk to him about it and point out that he was sulking because I wouldn't be physical with him. I needed some space. But I haven't talked to him about it and won't because I know that it will devolve and lead to him getting weird on me, err, I mean dysregulating. :-) He started to say something about it today but I told him not to analyze it. Let's  let it go and simply enjoy what happened last night without analyzing it or talking about it.
Logged
MissyM
*****
Offline Offline

What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Posts: 702


« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2014, 07:47:05 PM »

Vortex, the shift comes from doing the work.   I have read some of the lessons, books, DBT therapy and oddly enough I find alanon to be congruent with this message.  You sound like you are doing really well, picking it up faster than I did. I think I am a little stubborn sometimes Smiling (click to insert in post)
Logged
Rapt Reader
Retired Staff
*
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Child
Relationship status: married
Posts: 3626



WWW
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2014, 08:10:02 PM »

How do you get to the point where the sulking doesn't bother you? I have been trying some of the things mentioned in the lessons and in other threads for the last week or two.

I think that once I understood that my husband's moods were due to his BPD traits, and not me specifically, I started looking at them more clinically, and not as personally. I read this information (all of it): Understanding your partner's behaviors, and some books: "Overcoming Borderline Personality Disorder" by Valerie Porr, and "Stop Walking on Eggshells" by Randi Kreger. I guess, just soaking myself in understanding how his mind was working, and learning why he acted the way he acted when dysregulated, just made it easier for me to detach from his behavior without feeling sucked in by it. It was a learning and growing process for me; I've been on this site since April of 2013, so I've had a while to get to this place.  You, actually (like MissyM says) are really getting there, and making progress by leaps and bounds  Being cool (click to insert in post)


Last night, he got what he wanted and today he is suddenly out of his funk. I so badly want to talk to him about it and point out that he was sulking because I wouldn't be physical with him. I needed some space. But I haven't talked to him about it and won't because I know that it will devolve and lead to him getting weird on me, err, I mean dysregulating. :-) He started to say something about it today but I told him not to analyze it. Let's  let it go and simply enjoy what happened last night without analyzing it or talking about it.

I know that feeling of just wanting to be understood--and heard!--vortex... .I was like that my whole life. My whole darn life. I felt it as a little kid, a pre-teen and teenager, with my parents. I felt that way since being with my Husband (we started dating when I was 18, married by 20), and it has always been important to me to have my opinion valued and understood. So, I do know where that is coming from, and how hard it is to let that go.

But you are right; if you had made a point of trying to explain to him why you had needed your space, and why his advances were not appealing to you, it would've caused another dysregulation, just when things were calm and peaceful. You didn't like not having your voice, but you did use Mindfulness/Willingness to set that need aside for then, and you had a decent interaction. Finding that place inside of you that can see when it's best to detach and just listen and be compassionate, and when the time is right to be heard--and how to communicate the best way to be heard, just takes some time.

Sometimes I just have to decide that my priority is for my Husband's dysregulation to pass sooner rather than later, and to have my voice heard at another time when it won't cause that hamster wheel to spin out of control... .

Logged

vortex of confusion
********
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Posts: 3234



« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2014, 11:13:38 PM »

You, actually (like MissyM says) are really getting there, and making progress by leaps and bounds  Being cool (click to insert in post)

I had been doing a lot of work before I found this site. For years, I quietly tried to work on myself. I read a whole lot of resources about how to improve my marriage. I tried all sorts of things and nothing worked. The more stuff I did, the more he seemed to check out, get grumpy, and act more like a child. I could never understand why none of the stuff that was suggested worked. I could never understand how a grown man didn't seem to get so many things. I had people telling me to suck it up because he is just grumpy or he just needs me to take care of him.

I don't know if he has BPD but I do know that he exhibits a lot of the traits and that this is the first place that I have found that has given me some answers. I am one that seeks to understand. And, I do have to give a lot of credit to my dad because he is the one that insisted that I take a week long vacation away from my husband and my kids. My dad and I had a couple of long talks about how similar my husband and my mother are. He has repeatedly told me, "Just don't let that stuff bother you. Tune it out. Walk away." But, I couldn't have those conversations with my dad or anyone else until I quit hiding and denying and actually reached out to other people.
Logged
Indyan
******
Offline Offline

Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Ex-romantic partner
Relationship status: separated for 15 months, court 4 months ago
Posts: 812


« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2014, 04:20:23 PM »

My dad and I had a couple of long talks about how similar my husband and my mother are. He has repeatedly told me, "Just don't let that stuff bother you. Tune it out. Walk away." But, I couldn't have those conversations with my dad or anyone else until I quit hiding and denying and actually reached out to other people.

Funny how last summer my MUM and I had long talks about how similar my BPDbf and my DAD are. Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)

------------

I can relate so much to all this - and it makes me feel a bit guilty too. BPD has always asked me to stop "explaining" (to stop JADEing) and I couldn't help it during the first few months. The more I tried to understand and communicate, the more cruel he'd get... .

I then did it less often, but still felt I needed to EXPRESS MYSELF.

It had to come out every now and then... .all the things I couldn't say bottled up and BANG exploded at his face every 3 months or so (not my type though).

Anyway... .

These days I guess I'm JADEing too mych, especially JUSTIFYING things when he tries to provoke me.

I have to stop this. Thanks for sharing this information and your experiences.
Logged
Can You Help Us Stay on the Air in 2024?

Pages: [1]   Go Up
  Print  
 
Jump to:  

Our 2023 Financial Sponsors
We are all appreciative of the members who provide the funding to keep BPDFamily on the air.
12years
alterK
AskingWhy
At Bay
Cat Familiar
CoherentMoose
drained1996
EZEarache
Flora and Fauna
ForeverDad
Gemsforeyes
Goldcrest
Harri
healthfreedom4s
hope2727
khibomsis
Lemon Squeezy
Memorial Donation (4)
Methos
Methuen
Mommydoc
Mutt
P.F.Change
Penumbra66
Red22
Rev
SamwizeGamgee
Skip
Swimmy55
Tartan Pants
Turkish
whirlpoollife



Powered by MySQL Powered by PHP Powered by SMF 1.1.21 | SMF © 2006-2020, Simple Machines Valid XHTML 1.0! Valid CSS!