Are we letting her "win?"

[ShannonRT]

I'm new to this site. Just posted my intro a few days ago and you all have be soo helpful. It's an incredible relief to know there are other women in situations just like mine who are dealing with the same things I am.

I'll try to get the abbreviations right. My fiance's ex-wife is uBPD. Two kids together S13 and D12. We are to be married this summer and do not live together.

Here's the situation we are struggling with at the moment that is causing a lot of conflict and I need help with:

D12 has a soccer tournament four hours away next month. Both kids play a ton of soccer and this is where bioMom and I have pretty much all of our contact. Soccer is a huge issue for her because she feels like if I'm in attendance and she's not, she's a "loser Mom who all the other Moms are talking about." Of course, in reality, this is untrue. The other Moms are just there to watch their kid play soccer and nobody really even notices who is there and who isn't.

I suppose it's the insecurity and lack of self-worth that makes her feel this way. She also feels like S13 and D12 are HER kids and she doesn't like it at all when the four of us (or five if my D18 is with us) are spending time together as a family. She doesn't like me making friends with any of the other parents either because (as I'm learning) things are either black or white when you have BPD and if they are friends with me, they can't possibly be friends with her too. Am I getting this right?

I sent her a very nice e-mail a few months ago trying to explain that there can be room for everyone at soccer (and band concerts and graduations and weddings, etc) without conflict and we really should try to keep in mind what's best for the kids. It hasn't really changed anything. We are in a cycle where she will be mean and nasty for a while, then apologize and promise to try to do better, which will last for about a month and then it's back to mean and nasty again.

Well... . the out-of-town tournament has caused a complete breakdown. For the past two weeks she has been questioning my DF incessantly about whether or not I'm going. The problem is, she can't really afford to go and pay for gas or the hotel room since it's so far away. It's gotten to the point of crying and begging on her part for me not to go and if I do, she will do everything in her power to go, because in her mind, it's completely unacceptable for me to be there when bioMom isn't.

DF wants me to go and I would like to go. I think D12 would like it if I was there as well. It would be fun for all of us. DF has been completely torn up about it and doesn't know what the right thing to do is. He feels like he's in a no-win situation, which really, he is.

My thoughts are this:

If I go and she chooses to go as well, no matter what she has to do to make that happen, that's HER choice. She's the one with the problem about both of us needing to be there in order to feel secure about it.

If I don't go, we are letting her "win." And this is like giving in to a toddler throwing a temper tantrum. She gets what she wants, so next time, she will do it again. And again.

I firmly believe that DF needs to set VERY clear boundaries on what is acceptable and what isn't for her behavior. We cannot allow her to run our lives and manipulate our family decisions. This is the life she chose for herself when she filed for divorce. There are consequences and downstream effects of that and one of the big ones is that her children are going to have a step-mother.

So... . let's just add another layer to this complicated, messed up decision.

We've just learned that she is more than likely going to HAVE to stay home now because S13 is going to have soccer that weekend. So DF tells me he really thinks it would be best "for the big picture" for me not to go on this one. He says he has prayed about it and thought long and hard about it and thinks it will be a sign of good will from us towards her. (What?) He says he is going to make it very clear that once we are married, he will not make any concessions about us going on any trips or anything else together. I will be his wife, their step-mom and we will be a family unit. We will make decisions about what to do in our family unit.

He knows this is not what I want to hear, but says he is really trying to make decisions that will set us up for our married future.

I'm trying to process this information. The kids have been around so we really haven't had a chance to talk about it yet in private. Initially, my reaction was not a positive one. I don't really see what us being married has to do with anything. I know he's trying to balance my happiness and contentment with her crazy. But, (and I tell him this frequently) HE CAN'T FIX HER. If she can't handle her life and our relationship and whatever else, why is that his responsibility to worry about?

I guess I just want us to be able to live our lives and go to a stinking soccer tournament without it becoming such an ORDEAL!

Thoughts, opinions, advice?

Thanks for listening!

[Eodmava]

ShannonRT,

I think you should have your fiancé pray on the concept of healthy boundaries.  Whether you attend the soccer tournament or not is absolutely, positively, certainly and without any qualification... . NONE... . and I mean NONE... . of his ex's business.  There is no grey area here whatsoever.  If she can't go, too bad.  A disordered person doesn't see his compromise as goodwill, she will see this as weakness and this is setting you up for future compromises.  How would you feel about skipping your step-daughters graduation from college, or her wedding?  Sound far-fetched... . it's not... . she is testing him and he is failing.   

Mava

[DreamGirl]

Of course, in reality, this is untrue. The other Moms are just there to watch their kid play soccer and nobody really even notices who is there and who isn't.

Oh sure they care.  Soccer moms are one of the most judgmental, gossipy group of women I've ever encountered.

I stopped going to sporting events when she got all riled up when I went. That was mostly for me though - because I hate drama.

My going to sports events = drama.

It wasn't about letting her "win". It was about my just not wanting to participate in making a really bad situation worse. For me though, I don't really need to go to soccer tournaments. I also realized that the kids wanted their mama there happy and cheering far more then they wanted me there... . which caused her to be fiercely upset. 

... . and for whatever it's worth, she doesn't care anymore if I go to soccer tournaments. I think that was in part to making my going to soccer tournaments a very uninteresting subject to her.

I firmly believe that DF needs to set VERY clear boundaries on what is acceptable and what isn't for her behavior.

What would those boundaries look like?

[Eodmava]

Simple.  Boundary is new wife gets to choose to attend or not... . no matter what his ex wife's reaction is.  He shouldn't be making the decision for - or even the request of - his new fiance... . and he certainly shouldn't be making such a decision/recommendation in order to avoid conflict with his ex... . "avoid conflict" equals weak boundaries.  New bride gets to choose to attend or not attend... . and that's that.  Now if the new wife wants to avoid creating a drama of her own volition... . that's a different animal... . but the husband should back his wife's decision... . not his ex-wife's.  Simple as that.

[DreamGirl]

Simple.  Boundary is new wife gets to choose to attend or not... . no matter what his ex wife's reaction is.  He shouldn't be making the decision for - or even the request of - his new fiance... . and he certainly shouldn't be making such a decision/recommendation in order to avoid conflict with his ex... . "avoid conflict" equals weak boundaries.  New bride gets to choose to attend or not attend... . and that's that.  Now if the new wife wants to avoid creating a drama of her own volition... . that's a different animal... . but the husband should back his wife's decision... . not his ex-wife's.  Simple as that.

Oh if it were simple, then we probably wouldn't be here.

We all have a different set of values here. My husband values his wife very much, but he still values his ex-wife too. (He just does, not right or wrong, just right for him.) He still listens to her thoughts on matters because they're still in a co-parenting relationship. Is she unreasonable sometimes? Sure. Does that mean upholding his values through boundaries? Absolutely. 

So to say "buck up buttercup and deal with it" isn't really in line with his own values and to set a boundary in that fashion wouldn't be simple for him and it wouldn't feel very good to him. (Part of why I adore him so)

If I was so insistent that I thought I should go? He would support that (as long as I was being reasonable) and do his best to convey that to the ex. Probably using the magical wonders of the SET technique:

"It's hard when you and I can't agree on stuff like this. I wish that we could find a common ground and I do get that don't want DreamGirl there. I wish you felt differently - but I understand that you just don't.

Either of us dictating who can and can not be there isn't something I'm willing to participate in so I'm not really up for discussing DreamGirl's attendance anymore.

I hope you understand."

It's where a lot of members here get all muddled up as to what "boundaries" actually are. Boundaries are about connecting us with others while keeping in line with our own values, and protecting those values when it comes to boundary busters. This is a really good explanation: Boundaries: Upholding our Values

His value = I support the other parent's decision making process when it comes to who can attend sporting events (and I expect the same)

Boundary = I won't dictate who can or can't come and I won't participate in discussions of who can or can't come

Enforcement of Boundary = Don't engage and reiterate the boundary with "I'm not going to do this with you"

[Free One]

My thoughts are this:

If I go and she chooses to go as well, no matter what she has to do to make that happen, that's HER choice. She's the one with the problem about both of us needing to be there in order to feel secure about it.

If I don't go, we are letting her "win." And this is like giving in to a toddler throwing a temper tantrum. She gets what she wants, so next time, she will do it again. And again.

I firmly believe that DF needs to set VERY clear boundaries on what is acceptable and what isn't for her behavior. We cannot allow her to run our lives and manipulate our family decisions. This is the life she chose for herself when she filed for divorce. There are consequences and downstream effects of that and one of the big ones is that her children are going to have a step-mother.

I fully agree with you on these points, and it seems like you have researched and understand what is occurring.

Could the bigger picture item be that you are upset that your fiance has set a boundary - but with you, not the ex? His boundary is that you won't attend until married. It's not what you wanted (and I don't know if what the "best" answer is), and I would be hurt by that. I too would be worried that it is starting a pattern that you don't want to continue. Who would want to live with an ex having control like that over your relationship?

[ShannonRT]

Of course, in reality, this is untrue. The other Moms are just there to watch their kid play soccer and nobody really even notices who is there and who isn't.

Oh sure they care.  Soccer moms are one of the most judgmental, gossipy group of women I've ever encountered.

I stopped going to sporting events when she got all riled up when I went. That was mostly for me though - because I hate drama.

My going to sports events = drama.

It wasn't about letting her "win". It was about my just not wanting to participate in making a really bad situation worse. For me though, I don't really need to go to soccer tournaments. I also realized that the kids wanted their mama there happy and cheering far more then they wanted me there... . which caused her to be fiercely upset. 

... . and for whatever it's worth, she doesn't care anymore if I go to soccer tournaments. I think that was in part to making my going to soccer tournaments a very uninteresting subject to her.

I firmly believe that DF needs to set VERY clear boundaries on what is acceptable and what isn't for her behavior.

What would those boundaries look like?

I don't enjoy the drama either. But this is important to me and DF too. I enjoy being involved in the kids' activities. He also coaches both the kids' teams and if I never went to soccer, we would hardly see each other. And honestly, she's such a miserable person, she wouldn't be happy and cheering even if I wasn't there

And it's not just soccer. The same thing happened over a band concert before Christmas. It was a HUGE ordeal over whether or not I was attending.

Like others have mentioned, there is a bigger picture here and a precedent being set. We have years of soccer, band concerts, graduations and weddings in the future. How are we supposed to live a normal life together if this happens every time there is an event that we will both be attending?

So, yes... . I believe the boundaries look like bioMom doesn't get to choose how we live our lives. Period. No matter how poorly she is going to react. And the main problem I am having with DF's approach to the whole situation is that he is giving control to the ex and I'm not feeling supported.

[DreamGirl]

Feeling unsupported sucks.

And the kids? How do they cope with the drama of having to deal with their mom being so vocal about not wanting you there?

[ShannonRT]

She mostly deals with (blows up at) DF. The kids are definitely aware of the tension and they know she is uncomfortable about a lot of situations to do with me. When she does ask them questions now about what we're doing or if I'm around, they are becoming very vocal themselves about telling her it's not ok to put them in the middle and it doesn't matter if I'm there or not.

On a couple of occasions when she has gotten completely out of line on the phone, they just hang up on her. Then they follow up with a text saying "I'm sorry I hung up on you, but your behavior is not ok. When you are calm we can talk again."

They're pretty smart little cookies and figuring out quickly that Mom is different now. DF is doing a good job about not bashing her and telling them that their Mom loves them. He just explains to them that Mom has a difficult time with some things and they have to try and be patient with her.

[DreamGirl]

She mostly deals with (blows up at) DF. The kids are definitely aware of the tension and they know she is uncomfortable about a lot of situations to do with me. When she does ask them questions now about what we're doing or if I'm around, they are becoming very vocal themselves about telling her it's not ok to put them in the middle and it doesn't matter if I'm there or not.

On a couple of occasions when she has gotten completely out of line on the phone, they just hang up on her. Then they follow up with a text saying "I'm sorry I hung up on you, but your behavior is not ok. When you are calm we can talk again."

They're pretty smart little cookies and figuring out quickly that Mom is different now. DF is doing a good job about not bashing her and telling them that their Mom loves them. He just explains to them that Mom has a difficult time with some things and they have to try and be patient with her.

So my solution in my situation was to stop going to this kind of stuff. That was based mostly on my stepdaughters (and me).

When I wouldn't agree to stop going to sporting events (softball), my stepdaughters' Mama decided that she would boycott them. I figured, "fine, I won't ever miss a single one then".

So to every single one I went. Sometimes I would leave work early. A couple of times while my husband would take the other two girls to their games (same team), I would miss my own son's games to make sure the oldest had her own cheering section.

All because mom didn't want to go.

So at the end of the year Softball Banquet, front row I sat cheering on my oldest stepdaughter. I was really proud of her - she had worked so hard. So when she came and sat down next to me with her little trophy in hand... . and she started bawling.

"I wish my mom was here... . "  

It was an epiphany moment for me... . that I could fix it. It was an easy decision for me - I actually even called their Mama and told her how much they wanted her there and if it was that important to her, I'd give her more space.

Did she "win"? Maybe she did. I guess it depends on how you look at it. I saw my part of the conflict and I laid down the fight. It took seeing my SD's reaction to stop making it about me.

I'm not saying this has to be your solution. It also might be easier for you if your stepchildren had a moment like mine did. Maybe your being there is more important to them then my stepdaughters was to have me there. I know that I did the right thing for my situation, especially when a few years later my stepdaughter thanked me for stepping aside. She admitted that she was so torn in knowing that her mom was in the wrong, not wanting to hurt my feelings, and still really, really wanting her mama there. It's her mama. Different or not, it's the only one she's got.

I also knew that Mama doesn't have the skill set to be a grown up about it. I do.

If you are adamant that this is your right as a stepparent, their mom is being completely unreasonable, and that you feel your soon to be husband needs to set this precedent that you will be going to games and she has no say in it - that's OK. I get that.

Your soon to be husband might benefit from some of the very helpful tools in communication techniques when it comes to dealing with someone suffering from Borderline Personality Disorder. Invalidating feelings is a big misstep that most of us have. i.e. when she says she feel that all the moms are judging her and you say "no they're not". My husband might have said, "Ugh, I know! Those women can be so judgemental! I can make sure to tell them that you really wanted to be there but had something for work? No one needs to know why you couldn't go." 

The Staying Board and The Parents Board are all about learning new skills to reduce the conflict - and my family has benefited greatly from it. Heck, I use SET (Support, Empathy, Truth) on my teenagers. They struggle in mood regulation too!

When I see your situation, I see my own stepdaughters struggling mama. When it comes to BPD, feelings are facts. She feels like a bad mom for not going (and knowing that you'll be there). So therefore you going = her being a bad mom. It's why come hell or high water she's going to try and regulate those emotions, using every poor coping skill she's got.

I know that I hate when I feel like I'm being a bad mom.

My husband would probably validate her feelings a lot in these kind of moments. Especially if he was about to let her know that he wasn't going to oblige to her request.

[ShannonRT]

DreamGirl,

This is all very helpful information. Thank you!

I can see how your solution to stop going worked for your family. She would NEVER purposely boycott anything the kids were involved in because I was there.

For us, I don't think an "all or nothing" approach is best either way. There are many soccer events that I do not attend and she does. I don't particularly care for 8 am soccer games on Saturday morning in 35 degree weather anyway, plus I have my own daughter and home to care for and other goings on in my life that prevent me from attending. So it's not as if she doesn't get plenty of "breaks" from me being there.

We do probably need to have a conversation with the kids about how they feel about this in particular. They do ask if I'm coming but I'm not sure the extent of their knowledge of how it is effecting their Mom.

I do feel pretty adamant about the things you said... . my right as a stepparent, Mom is being unreasonable, fiance needs to set the precedent, etc.

If he can learn to apply the communication tools, I think that would be really helpful. The example you gave about the moms judging her is spot on.

[ennie]

Not sure if you have already got all the perspectives you need, but my experience with the BPD mom in my stepkids lives is that it really does not seem to matter to her if I am there or not; she figures out a way to flip out about it if she is in that mode, or not if she is not.  If I am not there, the kids just lack my support. 

At first I really tried to be attentive to what I though she wanted.  I would either avoid events to make her comfortable, or contact her to try to determine what she wanted.  These efforts were often a disaster, because she took me NOT going as an affront, and any communication was an excuse for drama.  At some point, I realized that the more she gets used to me, the less drama, except sometimes.  And that I cannot stop the drama--it is really there whether I am present or not, so the kids get it when they are with her much of the time. 

I am now 7 years into my relationship with DH and the kids (we are married) and when I miss an event, my SDs are upset, and let me know it.  "Hey, why weren't you there?"   

I have always let what feels right with them be my guide, not what makes BPDmom happy, because I do not find her to be consistent or able to be made happy.  The girls tend to let me know in some way if they feel mom is too triggered for them to enjoy me being there.  But I listen not just to their words (which are often influenced by their need to be loyal to mom) but the whole picture of their actions.  So if they say, "Whatever, be there if you feel like it," and then ask me if I am coming 4 times, then I am there. 

You are starting in when the kids are teens, so they are much more their own people, and your relationship with them probably is what would make it seem important or not for you to be there.  If you share common interests, they look up to you, they want to get to know you, or they seem to really need your support in some other way, then going is probably a good idea in my book.  If they get the support they need from dad and BPDmom, and you are looking for time for bonding and getting to develop a sense of family, but they do not really want you there, then maybe look for that opportunity somewhere that you have more of a chance to introduce them to your world or to really show them you support them in your special step-mom way, something unique you have to offer that they need. 

That is my suggestion.  There is no "right" way to do it, in my book.  It really is a collaborative relationship with the kids.  But I advise against basing your actions just on what mom needs.  Dreamgirl has a situation (correct me if I am wrong, DG!) in which her DH's ex does act much more nice and has fairly good communication with DH when Dreamgirl respects certain boundaries.  My situation is different, as BPD mom is more randomly very crazy and not nice or very loving and polite with both of us at different times, so me not going does not really serve to tone things down.  Even if both of us do not go, she may still pick a fight with the ref, or a friend, or someone at school, so avoiding things does not make it better.  I am also very good at toning things down, as is DH, so we add that positive benefit. 

I think just trust yourself.  The only regrets I have is that I made a point of not being involved in certain things to make mom happy, and now the kids are asking why I was never involved in those ways, and it is too late to jump back in without really upsetting the cart.  So think twice before you remove yourself; do it if it feels right to you, and don't if it does not.  One of the greatest things a step-parent can offer is someone who is not already in the parental dynamic, who is not stuck in doing things a certain way to make the BPD person happy, who can make choices that make sense for the kids while taking care of yourself.

[bravhart1]

We ask ourselves a hundred times a day if she is winning over here. I SOO get it!

Dreamgirl has a VERY good point I'm not sure anyone got. You and your soon to be husband should make choices for yourselves of course, but as the only two healthy minded people in the kids lives, they need to come first. When they are grown adults who can handle their mama on their own you can question your fiancées motives. But for now, he has got to put his kids first.

Not always easy to take since they are a direct link to "crazy". And I know how hard it is to have "crazy" driving the bus for us all. Sometimes I don't think I can take it.

What keeps me sane is remembering what an amazing man I got, and that I'm not his child's mother and that I'm just there for support. It's been a hard lesson.

Mothering comes easy to me and feeling like I'm superior to his ex felt nice, at first.

But humbled by "crazy" in our lives all the time makes me rethink if I want that spot, or if she can just have it.

Good luck! And I hope you are talking to someone (like therapist) before making this legal. Sorry if I sound pessimistic but as a new bride with his crazy ex... . ummm let's just say. Think it over.

VERY HARD.

[ShannonRT]

Hey everybody... . just wanted to post an update.

Some major things have changed in our little family. We are all under one roof now, as of about three weeks ago, which you can imagine has been VERY difficult for BPDbiomom. This was no surprise... . she knew we had been planning to move in together around my DD's graduation time next month, but my condo sold very quickly so it happened sooner than we expected.

Of course, her behavior has been awful. Worse than awful. Hateful, rude, nasty, vile. Constant drama and stress. You know.

The worst part is she is now targeting the kids instead of DF. Instead of blowing up his phone with her nasty texts, she is picking fights with them and putting them even more in the middle than she was before.

Last weekend, we met another family (which she is also friends with through soccer) at a local theme park . My being friendly with the Mom in this family has been an issue in the past (because we can't possibly have the same friends) and she also doesn't want D12's best friend from this family to "like me better than her."

So when she called D12 that morning to ask what we were doing, and D12 told her, she flipped out. She told her we could just go have fun while she stayed home alone and she didn't want to spend any time with them on Easter and she would just take all their f***ing Easter stuff back. S13 started crying and she honestly didn't understand why he was upset.

She wanted THEM to feel sorry for HER! And dropped an F-bomb to boot.

So, both kids talked to her multiple times on the phone in the car and there was lots of drama and they were both very upset. DF and I talked to them and we were able to put it aside for the day while they had fun with their friends.

But on the way home, she called and the conflict started right back up again. She kept texting them and both kids were upset. Finally, DF intentionally picked a text fight with her to distract her attention away from the kids and onto him.

Ultimately, she went out Saturday night and got calmed down so she did spend time with them on Easter after church as planned and they got their Easter presents.

The same thing happened at Christmas time... . she threatened to take their Christmas presents back during one argument.

Aren't holidays great?

I also wanted to comment on our soccer predicament and get your thoughts and opinions.

BPDmom still gets ALL bent out of shape if I show up at soccer. The kids like for me to go, but have to deal with the repercussions of her behavior afterwards... . especially when it's her week.

Last week, S13 was playing and D12 was there sitting with me until BPDmom arrived. D12's grandmother (DF's mom) was there too, who she hasn't seen in months because she's an accountant and she's been working.

D12 and Grandma were so excited to see each other... . D12 was sitting in her lap and they were talking and catching up... . until BPDmom got there. Then she had to leave and go sit with her because she would've thrown a fit if she didn't. I thought it was so sad that D12 couldn't even sit with her grandmother because of BPDmom's insecurities and our unhealthy relationship. And then BPDmom told D12 that her feelings were hurt because Grandma didn't wave or come say hi.

We had a discussion with both kids about a month ago about soccer and my attendance and how their Mom reacts. We told them that I liked to go and I liked being involved in their activities and that soccer wasn't the only thing that would be happening where their Mom would have to tolerate my existence... . band concerts, school events, etc. They both agreed that "Mom just needs to learn to get used to ShannonRT being around."

But we told them that if they were uncomfortable and didn't want me to go at times, that was ok too... . it wouldn't hurt my feelings.

Well, today BPDmom's parents are in town and coming to S13's game. DF is coaching the team so he will be there and I had planned on going, but because of a parent meeting at school, BPDmom has to attend that instead and will not be there.

If you remember from my previous post, it's a HUGE issue for her if I am at a game when she isn't. She feels like a "loser Mom" that all the other Mom's talk about. Plus her parents will be there.

Last night, unprompted, S13 says "Mom is going to be really mad about soccer tomorrow." But he said he didn't care, but I asked DF to have a conversation with him today about how he felt about me going and he said this time he thinks he would rather me not go to avoid the conflict with his Mom.

So... . my feelings are little hurt. I completely understand why and I think it's just more the fact that she has control over our lives than anything. I just want to go watch my soon-to-be stepkid play soccer.