I don't know if I am saying the right things.

[NyGirl8]

Recently had one last and final recycle with uBPD/NPD ex husband.  I uninvited him to our daughter's birthday party.  A party I have planned, paid for and executed.  My older daughter just said on the phone "I will see you at the party".  I explained to her after that her father wasn't coming, but, that she would see him Monday when he takes her and her sister to the water park.  She asked "why?".  She is 8.  I said "Well, I promised you the fighting would end.  I am working hard to keep that promise.  And I am having a very hard time being around your father right now because I am angry.  I want your sister to have a good time with her friends and there to be no fighting, so I made the best decision I could for me and you girls."

She seemed ok with this and then asked if we were ever getting back together.  I said "no we are not".  I explained we both have tried so many times and now we all need to get on with being happy.  Being happy just living in different houses".

She seemed ok with this.  The ex is furious that I dared to uninvited him.  I am very sad for her because when she goes to the water park she will see her father back together with the women he replaced me with while separated.  He only left 2 weeks ago, and this women was back in the picture three days after he left.  Makes me hurt that she needs to see her father treating women with such disrespect... .

I just hope I handled this right.  I always question whether I am telling her too much, not the right thing, or if I am doing the right thing.  I believe she needs the right to feel comfortable loving her Dad and will learn in time the realities of his character.  But, I also know I need to take care of myself or I am no good to them.

[Turkish]

Recently had one last and final recycle with uBPD/NPD ex husband.  I uninvited him to our daughter's birthday party.  A party I have planned, paid for and executed.  My older daughter just said on the phone "I will see you at the party".  I explained to her after that her father wasn't coming, but, that she would see him Monday when he takes her and her sister to the water park.  She asked "why?".  She is 8.  I said "Well, I promised you the fighting would end.  I am working hard to keep that promise.  And I am having a very hard time being around your father right now because I am angry.  I want your sister to have a good time with her friends and there to be no fighting, so I made the best decision I could for me and you girls."

She seemed ok with this and then asked if we were ever getting back together.  I said "no we are not".  I explained we both have tried so many times and now we all need to get on with being happy.  Being happy just living in different houses".

She seemed ok with this.  The ex is furious that I dared to uninvited him.  I am very sad for her because when she goes to the water park she will see her father back together with the women he replaced me with while separated.  He only left 2 weeks ago, and this women was back in the picture three days after he left.  Makes me hurt that she needs to see her father treating women with such disrespect... .

Hi NyGirl8,

From what you said, it seems like you handled it ok, and you have good communication skills with your daughters. You have a right to be angry, and the separation is new, so you will likely be for a while. Have you read up much on parental alienation and how it affects the children? Mine cheated and left (after four grueling months while she was doing it out of our house), so yes, we are the angry ones. I bit down on the alienation bullet promptly because being that angry and hurt, I knew I would probably more likely be the one to do it. Talk to your kids at an age appropriate to their emotional maturity level. Being their mom, you know best what that is. If they ask a question, maybe be Socratic, and ask them what they think first (which validates them), "why do you think... ?" and go from there. It's hard to not be focused on our own pain and anger, but this is about what is best for the kids. The other parent "Failed" in my opinion, in putting their empty needs above that of the children they chose to have. While we do need to take care of ourselves, we do need to focus on what is healthy for our children.

  I believe she needs the right to feel comfortable loving her Dad and will learn in time the realities of his character.

They likely will, but he is still their dad. We can't control how the kids interact with the other parent away from our homes. Short of becoming aware of abusive behavior, it's really not our business. I wish that mine won't model to our daughter she going out with narc man-boys, but in reality there isn't much I can do about it. I can just be the most healthy, well-adjusted parent on my side that I can be.

  But, I also know I need to take care of myself or I am no good to them. [/quote]

[NyGirl8]

Thank you Turkish for the reply.  I understand all of what you said and yes, it all makes sense.  We were separated for over 7 months and I truly had gotten to the space that you speak of.  I know I really have no control over what goes on over there.  And I had gotten there before.  This is so new and I feel like I am starting over... . but all words ring true.  I shall take deep breaths and move forward... .

But I do get caught up sometimes as to what is best for the girls.  Because really, the best thing is for them to have two healthy parents living together in the same home.  Well, the best is not an option anymore.  So, now, I have to be careful with all this because I am recovering from codependency and being emotionally abused.  I have to be careful I am not crossing boundaries to benefit my girls or even my ex... . crossing boundaries that essentially are very unhealthy for me.  This I struggle with.  I really would take a bullet for my kids... . so to think of my self before them is foreign to me.  But, I find myself doing that so I can be the best single Mom and example to them I can be.

[Turkish]

Thank you Turkish for the reply.  I understand all of what you said and yes, it all makes sense.  We were separated for over 7 months and I truly had gotten to the space that you speak of.  I know I really have no control over what goes on over there.  And I had gotten there before.  This is so new and I feel like I am starting over... . but all words ring true.  I shall take deep breaths and move forward... .

But I do get caught up sometimes as to what is best for the girls.  Because really, the best thing is for them to have two healthy parents living together in the same home.  Well, the best is not an option anymore.  So, now, I have to be careful with all this because I am recovering from codependency and being emotionally abused.  I have to be careful I am not crossing boundaries to benefit my girls or even my ex... . crossing boundaries that essentially are very unhealthy for me.  This I struggle with.  I really would take a bullet for my kids... . so to think of my self before them is foreign to me.  But, I find myself doing that so I can be the best single Mom and example to them I can be.

Focusing on what is best for them is understandable, and frankly it's our job, no? The best thing for them (and mine, S4, D1) would be to have two healthy parents together... . but we are here because our Exes are not healthy. With mine, having her away means that my children do not see her own parents' dysfunctional relationship mirrored in our home (mine became like her father... . me the co-dependent mother, though she reversed it in her mind to justify what she did). Mine has narc traits, but isn't NPD, I think. My job is to be as nice as I can (which is hard), while keeping my boundaries. If you felt that uninviting him was a boundary you needed to establish for your mental health, then that is ok.

Take a bullet for you kids... . I know what you mean. I am suddenly finding 50-50 parenting very hard... . because it was about 65-70% me for the past year. Now she is forced to parent them alone half of the time, and I feel like I lost something (just dropped them off for the next two days... . the house is so empty). I grew up very independent (latchkey kid, disordered mother), and try to instill this into my kids, appropriate for their ages, of course. I also am careful to not engage in covert incest (which is another thing that happened to their mother, her lost childhood). Love them healthily. It sounds like you already do.

[NyGirl8]

I understand.  Luckily I have primary custody.  He has them two weekends in a row, then I have them for a weekend.  They are with me all week.  I fought for this because I knew there would be no successful coparenting with him.  He does not tolerate my new found strength to set boundaries and make any decisions that do not account for him first.  So, I am lucky that I do get my girls the bulk of the time.  The little time away still kills me.  Mostly because he had no interest in parenting what so ever when we were married.  My girls were not bonded with him at all.  If anything, this split has made him at least appear more attentive.  I am sad for the day when he cannot maintain that... . it will come.  And yes, I am to think of my girls and what is best for them.  But, as you mentioned, I have to be mentally healthy and well to do that.  Right now, and I am hoping the anger lessens with time, I cannot be in the same room without having a physical (tense, angry, dazed... . PTSD?) reaction.  I have deduced that cannot be good for my girls when I am in that state... . so I am choosing to avoid it.  We had the party tonight and it was lovely.  The kids never even came near the adults.  It was all about her and her friends from her class having fun:-)

I bet going from 70% to 50% was beyond difficult for you!  And it sounds like you too are doing all you can to be the best parent for your children!  They are lucky.

[Turkish]

I understand.  Luckily I have primary custody.  He has them two weekends in a row, then I have them for a weekend.  They are with me all week.  I fought for this because I knew there would be no successful coparenting with him.  He does not tolerate my new found strength to set boundaries and make any decisions that do not account for him first.  So, I am lucky that I do get my girls the bulk of the time.  The little time away still kills me.  Mostly because he had no interest in parenting what so ever when we were married.  My girls were not bonded with him at all.  If anything, this split has made him at least appear more attentive.  I am sad for the day when he cannot maintain that... . it will come.  And yes, I am to think of my girls and what is best for them.  But, as you mentioned, I have to be mentally healthy and well to do that.  Right now, and I am hoping the anger lessens with time, I cannot be in the same room without having a physical (tense, angry, dazed... . PTSD?) reaction.  I have deduced that cannot be good for my girls when I am in that state... . so I am choosing to avoid it.  We had the party tonight and it was lovely.  The kids never even came near the adults.  It was all about her and her friends from her class having fun:-)

I bet going from 70% to 50% was beyond difficult for you!  And it sounds like you too are doing all you can to be the best parent for your children!  They are lucky.

Thank you! And glad to hear the party went well. Appearances... . yes. She appears to be a good mom now (she wasn't necessarily bad... . though her throwing out the f-bomb to S3 a few months ago in two separate incidents when she was dysregulated concerned me greatly), just neglectful. The other stuff will come later (it was my childhood, I know what is coming). So angry at this still, not so much her boy toy (who seems to me to be a narc what I can tell from a distance, possibly NPD/BPD as well, such fun!), but she neglecting the kids. That still grates me. My T said that he thinks a lot of my anger was coming from expecting her to be someone she is not. I argued with him a bit until he made it simple for me, "lower your expectations." *sigh*

I still think she is "getting away with it" putting the pouty sob story to other "divorced moms" she tells me about. Being half time mom, and then teenage like lover the other half of the time, but it's nothing I can control. It is what it is. I reverse our genders in my mind and it all becomes clear. Our entire r/s in fact. The FOG disappeared after that.

What I do hope is that with us not being around each other and with me triggering her, that her emotional state baselines. The deep depressions may come at some point (will come, will come... . ), but for now it seems ok. When her new r/s implodes, I expect a storm of epic proportions though. Based on her pattern before me, it will be bad. Can't control the future, just be mindful of the present. Hope for the best, prepare for the worst. That's my motto.

[NyGirl8]

Good luck, good luck!  Ummm yes, the F-bomb to a 3 year old, ugh!  Actually f-bombs are reserved only for my closest friends when we are chatting, so... . my take is... . blah! 

Wow, the combination of her and new young thing must get to you... . especially if he is NPD.   Are you documenting for when things go bad?  Is your agreement in the form of a court order?  There are certain things that the family courts in my City would listen to, and many they will not... . but having my court order is my saving grace.  It is also his public humiliation.  I KNOW he doesn't want to go back in front of that judge, as the judge, publicly ruled against him and pointed out that his behavior towards me in the courtroom (he was his own lawyer and so he was allowed to question me) was so horrible it can only make him wonder how he treated me at home in private.  My ex did not like that at all.  In fact when we recycled this last time... . right away he asked me to go back to court to have the order thrown out (can we say "red flag".  I didn't, never would... . he knew that from my clear answer about it.  But, it seems you are just waiting for the other shoe to drop?  Will she be a safe mother when that happens?

[NyGirl8]

Turkish... . I did just read a little bit on parent alienation.  Do you think me saying "I cannot be around you father right now because I am too angry", do you think that is mild parent alienation.  Aw, that is so what I didn't want to do.  I suppose I wanted to teach her that it is ok to be angry and it is ok to set boundaries.  I guess when it is her father, that makes these lessons difficult.   I guess what I know is I was really not in anyplace to spend two hours in the same room as him.  It really would not have ended well.  I have so much anger right now for him.  And I didn't want to say Daddy couldn't come... . because that is a lie and he would've been there in a heartbeat.  So, I chose the truth and let her know it was my decision.  We had just had a conversation where she opened up to me that she feels unsafe when she doesn't know what is going on the day before.  I promised her I would try to keep her informed with what she needed to know.  But, there is a lot of adult stuff that she will not know about because she is not an adult and it is Mommy and Daddy's job to take care of that stuff.   

The party was planned when we were still together... . so, now it will be understood that these events will be separate from now on.  Since I feel like I am obsessing about this a bit, it will def. be on the top of the list in Therapy next week:-)  Thanks for listening and the input!

I grew up with a mother who consistently apologized for picking such a horrible Dad for us, and then in the next breathe said "you're just like your father".  I do not want my children to grow up like that.  My Dad was a classic NPD with probably some BPD traits and others in the cluster B.  My Mom is classic codependent who never got help, never had a healthy relationship (barely attempted) after my Dad left.  I am codependent and my ex is just like my Dad.  I just want so bad to break the chain for my girls

[Turkish]

Turkish... . I did just read a little bit on parent alienation.  Do you think me saying "I cannot be around you father right now because I am too angry", do you think that is mild parent alienation.  Aw, that is so what I didn't want to do.  I suppose I wanted to teach her that it is ok to be angry and it is ok to set boundaries.  I guess when it is her father, that makes these lessons difficult. 

Not sure... . I think it may elicit questions like, "why are you so angry at daddy?" A question you may have a tough time answering without hurting your daughter. I read somewhere that bad things one parent says about the other isn't hurting the adult, it hurts the child. I wish my Ex would get this... . she's been all over telling the kids what a good daddy I am, but her devaluing comments are part of who she is; she can't help it because it's pathological. Such as a mild one the day before she moved out, when doing up D1's hair for church, "It's a good thing you have a mommy!" I was standing right there.

I guess what I know is I was really not in anyplace to spend two hours in the same room as him.  It really would not have ended well.  I have so much anger right now for him.  And I didn't want to say Daddy couldn't come... . because that is a lie and he would've been there in a heartbeat.  So, I chose the truth and let her know it was my decision.  We had just had a conversation where she opened up to me that she feels unsafe when she doesn't know what is going on the day before.  I promised her I would try to keep her informed with what she needed to know.  But, there is a lot of adult stuff that she will not know about because she is not an adult and it is Mommy and Daddy's job to take care of that stuff. 

It sounds like you are handling it well.

I grew up with a mother who consistently apologized for picking such a horrible Dad for us, and then in the next breathe said "you're just like your father".  I do not want my children to grow up like that.  My Dad was a classic NPD with probably some BPD traits and others in the cluster B.  My Mom is classic codependent who never got help, never had a healthy relationship (barely attempted) after my Dad left.  I am codependent and my ex is just like my Dad.  I just want so bad to break the chain for my girls

That's our FOO. Yes, break the chain. This may be the one "gift" of once loving a NPD or BPD... . to shock us into realizing the truth. My mom was diagnosed with severe depression the year I moved out of the house (literally the day I turned 18 and could sign a lease) and had a complete breakdown. She's also a hoarder (as bad as the worst you see on that show, which I can't stand to watch, I've only seen snippets), and has several BPD traits, though not the full blown disorder, I don't think. My Ex is the opposite of my mother... . on the outside. On the inside, they are similar. I know how to pick 'em! The good thing about my mom is that she is not mean (she was to me sometimes as a kid though... . and I probably repressed a lot), and is a moral person, the opposite of my Ex. No narc traits either.

I fear for my son, especially since BPD runs in their family. He is more like his mom in personality, while D 22 months is more like me. He is past that critical attachment stage, though, and seems to be taking this in stride. D1 clings and clings to me a lot more since their mom moved out. Object constancy. S4 has taken into sleeping in my bed. Even when I put him into his bed, a few nights I awoke to him coming into my room. Twice now he has asked to sleep in my bed. I don't tell my Ex this... . don't want to give her ammo. She already implied that I may be a possible molester when I was making kissy noises in my daughter's ear 8 months ago. Then when S then 3 went through a stage of wanting to kiss me on the lips, told me to not do that (I told this to my T and he said I was doing nothing wrong... . his dad kissed him on the lips until he was 12). Still... . makes me doubt myself.

S4 will probably turn out a co-dependent... . So his mom will get a nice dose of herself for a future DIL. I am thinking about crafting a "guide" for the kids to read later should it come to that, leaving it with a trusted friend, should they ever need to know certain things and how to deal with them. I'm older (early 40s) with young kids, so I can't count on being around in my late 60s to help them.

[Turkish]

Good luck, good luck!  Ummm yes, the F-bomb to a 3 year old, ugh!  Actually f-bombs are reserved only for my closest friends when we are chatting, so... . my take is... . blah! 

Wow, the combination of her and new young thing must get to you... . especially if he is NPD.   Are you documenting for when things go bad?  Is your agreement in the form of a court order?  There are certain things that the family courts in my City would listen to, and many they will not... . but having my court order is my saving grace.  It is also his public humiliation.  I KNOW he doesn't want to go back in front of that judge, as the judge, publicly ruled against him and pointed out that his behavior towards me in the courtroom (he was his own lawyer and so he was allowed to question me) was so horrible it can only make him wonder how he treated me at home in private.  My ex did not like that at all.  In fact when we recycled this last time... . right away he asked me to go back to court to have the order thrown out (can we say "red flag".  I didn't, never would... . he knew that from my clear answer about it.  But, it seems you are just waiting for the other shoe to drop?  Will she be a safe mother when that happens?

It's getting to me less now. I told her I never want to meet the guy. She was always good on keeping things from her family, her past cycle of bad relationships. She may keep this guy separate. She's already madly in "love" with him. More than she ever was me, the father of her children with whom she built a pretty good life together. Whatever... .

I finally "convinced" her to file with the court as she wanted to do everything under the table for a number of reasons (one reason may have been leaving a door open, I don't know, I'd never take her back. I found her behavior disgusting, and her abandonment of the kids to go play despicable). The sitpulation and CS are in process with my lawyer. It is guideline and fair. She is letting me handle it. I make twice her salary so will be paying her a low end luxury car parment each month. It is what it is... . I've been keeping a written journal of the day's events since the end of September. Dates, times, 98% facts, with little commentary by me. The T and multiple lawyers told me this was good, and to keep doing it.

I also photographed her journals (which she still left lying around my house even after she came back a second time for more of her stuff), which is not admissable in court. It is evidence for me, however, of a disordered mind. I also found stuff she'd written on our computer. Didn't have to dig too deeply. Stuff she wrote to herself and to her paramour, such as a few months ago, "Turkish has been nicer to me lately, I think the therapy is helping him." Yeah, it did help, not that I wasn't mean to her to begin with. I've been very honest about all of this and a few people who followed me on the Leaving Board thought I was a bit milquetoast. so did some of my female friends. But I got her out with little drama, and got the custody stipulation going with my Ex's buy-in, without forcing court. It isn't done yet, but the best that will happen is that she agrees to the terms and support $ (which will be guideline, so she can't really fight it... . she even wanted to pay me less, but that seems to be a door for future drama. I want it by the book), she signs, and we just file it. Done. No court necessary.

As for her emotional state... . it crossed my mind to go for majority custody. My Ex even commented a lot that I handle the kids better (like her dad told me I "handled" his daughter well... . they know she has an "attitude" but don't know the half of it). Other than my journal, and a really nasty hand written note that she left me a few years ago during one of her severe depressive episodes, and the fact that she is diagnosed with depression, I have little to go on. The best I hope for is that this forces her to try harder and to be a better mom. She is trying, and for that I will credit her. When her depressions hit, I just hope she has the sense to bring the kids to me. The first day she had them to herself (in weeks), she called me 7 hours later and had a lot of trouble with them at the mall, talking about their behaviors. I bit my toungue from saying "yes, they do that. If you'd been around more in the past few months, you might have known!"

[NyGirl8]

Turkish,

My T said that he thinks a lot of my anger was coming from expecting her to be someone she is not. I argued with him a bit until he made it simple for me, "lower your expectations." *sigh*

Thanks for that.  I think my anger originates from there, but I also think because I have been so enmeshed with him and so very co-dependent, I think I am so ashamed by his behavior and I feel it directly reflects on me... . I think this breakthrough thought will help me immensely as I process it with my T.

Sounds like you are doing all you need to do for documentation, so if the need ever arises you have tons of documentation if you ever need to fight for your kids' safety.  I too have done the documentation route... . just in case.

It sounds like you have made your self aware of these disorders and, like me, have looked back too your early relationships to try and figure out how you ended up in this craziness.  I think that this has to be a key to breaking the cycle.  It has to be!  I too am doing the same thing.  Stuck a bit in anger, but, for the first time feeling optimistic it will pass.  I will feel it, process it, and one day it will leave.  It is helpful to know you are feeling it less and your ex is not bothering you like she once did.