What is a Real or Perceived Negative Trigger for a BPD?

[Depression = 72% of members]

The one question I continue to ask myself with regards to each time my partner gets triggered from what I am talking about is whether it is a real or a perceived interpretation? Is what I say when he becomes triggered really about what I'm talking about or is there something underlying it that is at the heart of the triggering? Well I'm still trying to hang in there but it has been most difficult and we seem to always find problems with communication. I seem to inevitably say the wrong thing bring up the wrong topic and when I rehash something then look out for some strange reason that drives him 'mad'. The last conversation it had to do with me needing constant reassurance which are his words not mine.

I ask myself this question about what is real and or perceived and what part or role I play in that with regards to my BPD partner all the time when we communicate and I set him off. What is real and what is perceived is difficult to ascertain when you get all twisted up in their version of the event as per their emotions and how they are interpreting it. I have concluded that even if there is some truth to it the majority of his criticism is distorted thinking based on his emotions. However, he will never see it like that because it is always my fault. The truth is somewhere in the middle for me often times... . unless I have actually done the very thing he is criticizing me about but the majority of the times it is his fears and insecurities that find fault with something I've done, not done, said, not said, etc.

Last one to give an example was that I brought up a topic that we had spoken about several times prior and he didn't want to repeat the same conversation as he was in a bad mood so he was very rude, condescending and short with me. It made me feel like he was not having a conversation with me but rather just barely tolerating talking to me. When I continued to talk about it and was upset at his attitude he hung up on me in mid sentence. Then he texted me that I constantly grind him, nag him, criticize him and nothing he does is ever good enough for me. That I'm wearing him down and that I left him no option but to hang up. He also proceeded to tell me that I had better be mindful of my own issues that constantly cause his triggering. I haven't heard from him since that last conversation.

Now from the perspective of a non here is my take. I simply was rehashing a nice sentiment which he didn't want to hear so he was rather belligerent, impatient and aggravated, it was clear he couldn't wait to get off the phone. I was upset at how he was treating me because it was disrespectful and was also upset because the second he doesn't like the way something is going he suddenly has a headache, feels sick and is exhausted. So I got into my defensive mode and was explaining that he could speak to me with a nicer tone and just explain nicely that he doesn't want to talk about it rather than have such a disrespectful tone. That is when he hung up and according to him it is all my fault and well here I sit wondering when I'll hear from him again.

My response to him in text was that he hurt me deeply by hanging up on me and his response was that it was typical because it is all about me and I never admit that I'm the cause of upsetting him. No apology just excuses, justification and blaming me... . what is worse is his punitive measure in not contacting me for days now.

What I perceive from having been with him for so many years is that he is literally persevering over all the bad things about me and our bad communication. He is splitting me and fixating on all the negative things and struggling to find out where the truth is about loving me or not. Or something like that?

So where is the truth in even a simple thing such as that and where are the truths when things are far more complex as they usually are between two people who both share their own issues, triggers, fears and insecurities. Where and how can communication help us so that we don't get so screwed up with such simple things?

As per my conversation I honestly just thought there was no harm in rehashing the same old sentiment and when I got defensive and was arguing back he had a melt down. So I've yet to hear from him and there was never an apology for literally hanging up on me without so much as giving me a warning while I was in mid sentence. We weren't even arguing but having what I thought a defensive discussion.

In his mind my response that he hurt me by doing that is that as usual it is all about me even though I am the one that criticizes him all the time which according to him makes him feel like nothing he says or does is ever good enough. All I see are distortions and I'm trying desperately to understand how to respond anymore to him. I know I have my part in this as well and I want to be true to that but I'm really getting lost in the distortions between what is real and what is a perceived distortion based on his emotions as opposed to the facts?

[Surrender]

The one question I continue to ask myself with regards to each time my partner gets triggered from what I am talking about is whether it is a real or a perceived interpretation? Is what I say when he becomes triggered really about what I'm talking about or is there something underlying it that is at the heart of the triggering? Well I'm still trying to hang in there but it has been most difficult and we seem to always find problems with communication. I seem to inevitably say the wrong thing bring up the wrong topic and when I rehash something then look out for some strange reason that drives him 'mad'. The last conversation it had to do with me needing constant reassurance which are his words not mine.

I ask myself this question about what is real and or perceived and what part or role I play in that with regards to my BPD partner all the time when we communicate and I set him off. What is real and what is perceived is difficult to ascertain when you get all twisted up in their version of the event as per their emotions and how they are interpreting it. I have concluded that even if there is some truth to it the majority of his criticism is distorted thinking based on his emotions. However, he will never see it like that because it is always my fault. The truth is somewhere in the middle for me often times... . unless I have actually done the very thing he is criticizing me about but the majority of the times it is his fears and insecurities that find fault with something I've done, not done, said, not said, etc.

Last one to give an example was that I brought up a topic that we had spoken about several times prior and he didn't want to repeat the same conversation as he was in a bad mood so he was very rude, condescending and short with me. It made me feel like he was not having a conversation with me but rather just barely tolerating talking to me. When I continued to talk about it and was upset at his attitude he hung up on me in mid sentence. Then he texted me that I constantly grind him, nag him, criticize him and nothing he does is ever good enough for me. That I'm wearing him down and that I left him no option but to hang up. He also proceeded to tell me that I had better be mindful of my own issues that constantly cause his triggering. I haven't heard from him since that last conversation.

Now from the perspective of a non here is my take. I simply was rehashing a nice sentiment which he didn't want to hear so he was rather belligerent, impatient and aggravated, it was clear he couldn't wait to get off the phone. I was upset at how he was treating me because it was disrespectful and was also upset because the second he doesn't like the way something is going he suddenly has a headache, feels sick and is exhausted. So I got into my defensive mode and was explaining that he could speak to me with a nicer tone and just explain nicely that he doesn't want to talk about it rather than have such a disrespectful tone. That is when he hung up and according to him it is all my fault and well here I sit wondering when I'll hear from him again.

My response to him in text was that he hurt me deeply by hanging up on me and his response was that it was typical because it is all about me and I never admit that I'm the cause of upsetting him. No apology just excuses, justification and blaming me... . what is worse is his punitive measure in not contacting me for days now.

What I perceive from having been with him for so many years is that he is literally persevering over all the bad things about me and our bad communication. He is splitting me and fixating on all the negative things and struggling to find out where the truth is about loving me or not. Or something like that?

So where is the truth in even a simple thing such as that and where are the truths when things are far more complex as they usually are between two people who both share their own issues, triggers, fears and insecurities. Where and how can communication help us so that we don't get so screwed up with such simple things?

As per my conversation I honestly just thought there was no harm in rehashing the same old sentiment and when I got defensive and was arguing back he had a melt down. So I've yet to hear from him and there was never an apology for literally hanging up on me without so much as giving me a warning while I was in mid sentence. We weren't even arguing but having what I thought a defensive discussion.

In his mind my response that he hurt me by doing that is that as usual it is all about me even though I am the one that criticizes him all the time which according to him makes him feel like nothing he says or does is ever good enough. All I see are distortions and I'm trying desperately to understand how to respond anymore to him. I know I have my part in this as well and I want to be true to that but I'm really getting lost in the distortions between what is real and what is a perceived distortion based on his emotions as opposed to the facts?

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[woodsposse]

Hi.

All I can say is mostly all of have been there in some way, shape or form.

It is hare to determine if what you are describing is a person with BPD (is he diagnosed, or you feel he is undiagnosed, or has some other PD) - or if this is just a boyfriend being a jerk and you all lack good communications skills.

What I know is this - I have had many (and I mean MANY) conversations with my diagnosed (soon to be) exWife where I thought we were just having a discussion and it turned into an argument.  I thought I was defending my position (quite nicely and logically, mind you) and it turned into an argument.  And we were having a conversation and I turned it into an argument. 

Oh... . I'm not an innocent.  By far.

One of the last times we had a blow out of an argument (via text) is when she texted me some information regarding our adult child and the fact she was depressed and drinking too much.  I could have simply said thank you for letting me know - but there was and is so much more to it than that... . that it was a trigger for me.  you see my diagnosed soon to be ex wife took it upon herself to become our child's "Friend" - they drank and partied together (A LOT)... . even though she knew our child was not doing so well, had a self mutilating habit, was depressed and was very promiscuous.  But that didn't stop her from becoming BFFs and doing this type of behaviors together.

Now that we are split up and my ex is with someone else... . she wants to text me that our child is "getting out of control"? 

Of course I'm very upset at this.  My ex HELPED make this happen.  I'm sitting here in my "new life" away from my family and I get a text saying our child is in danger from the woman who I trusted to not hurt my child (child from a previous marriage) - but instead took hand in hand down a destructive path that now leads to multiple sexual partners, STDs, substance abuse and very very poor impulse control.  And I'm suppose to be happy about this?

No.  I wasn't happy at all.  I didn't jump on her, at first.  But it didn't take a few lines of text for it to unleash.  And when it unleashed - it was a nuclear explosion.

Am I BPD?  Far from it.  I was just tired of holding it in - and being made that everything was my fault.  Even when it isn't.  I was tired of being told it was my fault - and - I was tired of the BS from her saying that the truth is somewhere in the middle.  I call it BS because if the truth is somewhere in the middle then we could have found it and been on the same page - but no matter how we as Nons look at it... . they think we are always the one in the wrong.

So what is real or perceived?

What difference does it make.  No matter what you say will never make a difference.

If he is diagnosed, I would suggest looking at some of the tools on learning how to deal with living with someone with BPD as well as looking at yourself to see why you would allow this to happen to and around you (usually having something to do with childhood and FOO).

If he isn't diagnosed, but you feel he may have disorder - the same would apply.

At the very least - I would suggest spending some time focusing on you.  Not the relationship.  Not him.  You.

Get to a place where you can protect yourself and you are comfortable with not allowing this type of behavior around you.  We all deserve better.

[Surrender]

Woods thank you so much because I can't argue with anything you wrote. Yes he is most definitely diagnosed as of quite recently. He is quite severely cluster B BPD with narcissistic and avoidant disorders to boot.

I am having a harder time dealing with the blows from him that literally come out of nowhere and especially when I was under the impression that we were having a discussion only to discover that I've done something without even realizing it and for him it is monstrous. Very disturbing because of the level of distortion and tired of wearing the blame and being made to feel like I'm wearing him down.

I'm sorry to hear about your situation because she clearly set that one up and everyone and their dog could see that except for her and that is her own sabotaging.

I thought about what you said that if there was some truth in the middle we would have been privy to it but the reality is that we aren't ever privy to a middle ground and I believe you are right. I've become obsessed in trying to crack the BPD code but I know you are right there as well... . it doesn't make a difference because I will never be right, there will never be a real break through even in those few lucid moments where they make you believe that they see it too only to revert painfully to their distorted behaviors and volatility. What doesn't help is that I'm having a really difficult time applying the techniques and understanding when to use them.

I only know one couple that have made it successfully. Not very good odds.

[waverider]

The problem is they have hypersensitive emotional radars. So yes they can often pick up on our subconscious meanings and feelings. The big issue is the lack of empathy and regulation skills. This means they perceive these issues as being about them, not us, and consider it a threat. They will twist these interpretations to suit that agenda.

This will be be responded to to in a defensive way, a pwBPDs defensive strategy is often preemptive attack.

So their radar picks up somethings not right>it must be about me> it must be negative> must defend> strike first.

As WhattaRide states there is no negotiated middle ground the pwBPDs agenda is to deflect blame and responsibility. So there will always be a component of RS sabotage. The only thing you can do is see it for what it is and disengage from the cycle, and accept that "normal" conversation is always strewn with mines. Some you will learn to avoid and others you will step on.

You can't withdraw from communications just because of the occasional blow up. All you can do is learn not to be provoked into reactionary, go nowhere, arguments over it.

[123Phoebe]

I know I have my part in this as well and I want to be true to that but I'm really getting lost in the distortions between what is real and what is a perceived distortion based on his emotions as opposed to the facts?

I think it's important to be mindful of our own interpretations to events as well.  From what you've mentioned, it sounds like he was not open to discussing this issue again (rehashing the nice sentiment?) , at least not at that time.  He was already in a bad mood (do you know why?)  Probably not the best time to discuss things.  Accepting that he was not into it, respecting his boundary (validating it) and letting it go for the time being might've been one way to go about this particular situation?

Validate the valid.  Don't validate the invalid.  Don't invalidate the valid or grasp at straws to get them to understand where we're coming from when they're not receptive to it and we're starting to stress.  Escalation is sure to follow... .

We weren't even arguing but having what I thought a defensive discussion.

Not sure I understand what a defensive discussion is?

It's good that you're able to recognize when you're getting defensive

Detach with love and get ourselves straight first.

[an0ught]

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and so I guess is invalidation too. Real or perceived? Who knows. When dealing with fears there is fear and then there can be a fear of the fear which may be even worse. The fear of being triggered is one of the mechanisms behind PTSD induced dysfunctional coping.

What may be harmless for some may be harmful for others. Especially when it comes to triggers unearthing memories of past emotions all bets are off. This can make no sense of anyone else but the person experiencing it.

PwBPD are hypersensitive, particularly at times when stressed. Part of it is b&w thinking and emotional excitability. Part of it is weak sense of self and boundaries.

It sucks to be hung up upon and it can be abusive. It can be simply the another person protecting themselves from overload. In that light maybe it is good that he is calling a stop and a step towards healthier behavior. Now if he can adjust his manners to make the process less rude it would be even better.

It won't be the last situation in which he feels pushed beyond his coping limits so maybe you can turn this into a growth opportunity for both of you 

[Hope26]

Hi Surrender,

I just want to say that I have a big problem with the entire concept of 'triggers' as well; and as you said in one of your subsequent posts, it doesn't work to try to 'crack the BPD code'.  One of the things that made me suspect a mental disorder to begin with, was that anything I said could be a 'trigger' and it was never the same thing or even on the same subject more than once.  And like you said, you think you're just having a normal conversation when out of the blue, boom!  You are getting screamed at!  It's like a hard punch in the gut coming out of nowhere.  God knows if there were predictable, identifiable triggers I'd be avoiding them, and I'm sure we all would.  The other thing, at least for me, that screamed 'mental disorder' was the extreme irrationality of whatever the trigger of the moment was, especially relative to the anger that resulted.  Like not folding a piece of laundry 'correctly', putting something in the pantry that 'didn't belong there', expressing enthusiasm, or 'repeating myself'.  Maybe your post 'triggered' me (haha).  I can identify so strongly with you that it brought out my need to vent.  This past weekend was a real thrill because I used an 'I' statement in a sentence where I should have used 'we'.  I do normally know better than to do that, but sometimes we (or I) get emotional too!

[123Phoebe]

And like you said, you think you're just having a normal conversation when out of the blue, boom!  You are getting screamed at!  It's like a hard punch in the gut coming out of nowhere. 

Good point

And what we do next is crucial in maintaining our own autonomy with respect for ourselves and the relationship, if we wish to continue forward.

This situation happened after we had spent a wonderful day together and pulled into my driveway (we don't live together).

If I fought back, sure I could look at it as defending myself, "You're not going to talk to me like that, A-hole!  What the H!  I deserve an apology!"  Fully expecting him to 'get it'.  Or I could retreat and never say a word, just letting it fester and breed resentment wondering why he does these things.

When I took it upon myself to protect myself and act according to the moment, feeling what was going on, this is what actually happened... .

My body tensed up, tears welled up in my eyes, I made a beeline for the bathroom and stayed in there until I felt composed enough to face him.  When I came out he was standing there with a dumbfounded look and asked if I'm alright.  I said "no and I feel really bad that a beautiful day together ended in such a way, that I feel very uncomfortable being yelled at out of nowhere".  He said something like he was joking.  It's hard to remember all the details it's been so long ago now.  Anyway, I said it didn't feel like a joke and it's probably best if he left, and I walked out to my backyard.  He followed me, all quiet.  And we spent some quiet time together.  We didn't have to discuss anything further because he knew what my boundary was = I will not stick around for being yelled at out of nowhere.  I will treat myself (and him and the relationship) with respect.

He got it!

Detach with love

[Cloudy Days]

I have realized that sometimes my husband is looking for a trigger so no matter what happens, all it takes is the wrong look and he grabs on and uses that to justify his feelings that something is not right. In other words, if they are looking for a trigger they will find one. What is hard to swallow is that it's never the same thing, and sometimes it's something that has never triggered him before. His therapist explained to me that when he is triggered, it can be anything, but the emotion is actually coming from past experiences and he is not actually attacking me as a personal attack. He's attacking the person that hurt him in the past.

So I know what my truth is, and I know that his truth is distorted. The best thing I ever did for myself is learn how to keep my voice at a lower level, calm, cool, collected as much as possible. My husband would get triggered during normal conversations because of the level of my voice. I am an emotional person, I don't like rejection just as much as he doesn't like it so it was easy for me to get to that defensive I'm hurt voice and that's really all it takes. I've been doing everything possible to keep my responses calm, and not letting him trigger me. We actually had a pow wow with his therapist and she pointed it out that he is triggering me and I am triggering him with my voice. I never even noticed it before and would always blame it all on him. But I would get defensive and they get triggered by defensive talk. I even realized that defending is what I do first before even trying to talk to him, I'm always trying to get him to see it my way. But the reality of it, is that they aren't going to see it our way so why waste your time talking to someone that isn't going to hear you.

I have spent a lot of time on these boards trying to crack the BPD code as well. Trying to understand him, trying to find a way to get him to see my point of view. And it wasn't until I realized that I need to pay attention to myself and my reactions to his madness that I actually started to feel better. The only person you have control over is you and your reactions to him. And the best reactions are calm and validating reactions, which is hard when they are pushing every button they can think of to get you to react.

Honestly, it wasn't until I was ready to loose this relationship that I could actually open my eyes up and change myself. I have stopped focusing on him and I am focusing on how I feel for once, it's very liberating. 

[ziniztar]

Hi Cloudy Days,

I really love reading your post. Your experience seems like mine, I'm very afraid of rejection as well. It's good to see that your reaction can change his triggers. The other day I decided to change my reaction to him in order to obtain my own goal (seeing him again) and it worked like hell. To me it can somewhat feel like a puzzle that you're trying to figure out, and when you 'get' something you can feel quit good. Am I the only one in this?

Re triggers: At first when he gave me the silent treatment I'd text him saying "hey I asked you a question" or just wait until he contacted me. Last week I sort of decided to ignore his distance by accepting that I couldn't stay away. I sent him a voice message that I was hurt on Friday night by him ignoring me. The next day I sent him another one saying that I was doing fine the next day (trying to reassure him) and that I'd just wait until he'd get back to me.

Woops. That triggered the hell out of him. First voice message #1 where he heard me crying, saying that I hadn't had a bad week like this in years. The next day I wanted to reassure him with voice message #2, that I was doing better. Later I found out he explained it as "you only miss me for one day and then you're fine again".

I think my (diagnosed) boyfriend is triggered by my voice and emotion as well. Knowing that he has hurt me makes it more difficult for him. Hurting his girlfriend that he loves > must be him > he is worthless and destroys everything good around him > he has no reason to live or a good reason to punish himself by pushing away me and everyone else in his life that is good to him.

123Phoebe, I like your positive reactions . Keep that up, it's hopeful!

[Hope26]

123Phoebe, I like your positive reactions too!  After you let him know of your boundary, did he stop with that kind of behavior?  Or did the subsequent incidents at least decrease in frequency?  If the incidents repeated, did you also leave the premises as you did the first time, thus giving him the message and altering his behavior?

I think in my case, the raging behavior of my uBPDh has decreased since I've learned to back off and not JADE, but sometimes I get accused of not wanting to face anything, basically being a wimp, when I leave the room. This is probably true because I am sensitive and hate fighting.  It is so hard to find that balance.

[123Phoebe]

After you let him know of your boundary, did he stop with that kind of behavior?  

Yea, that kind of behavior stopped  That one was a biggie for me; I don't like that, it makes me feel bad.

I know I bang around these boards telling people to focus on themselves and I mean it, to really focus on themselves.  Getting in touch with ourselves is so important.  Speaking from our hearts.  Meaning it.  

We don't have to put up and shut up.  That's not what the Lessons are about.  We don't have to defend ourselves to the bitter end either.  That's black & white thinking, not much different than people with BPD.  It's also how my parents interacted for the most part, exchanging roles here and there  

I don't necessarily want to alter my partner's behaviors.  Change him.  That's not my intention or driving force.  He's a really super person; I love him, I think he's great!  It does come back to those pesky BPD behaviors though... .  Some of them can be a little hard to take.  I'm just myself with him (as I'm finding out who 'myself' is more and more) and so far, he's decided on his own to change things up for the better

If he yelled at me again out of nowhere, yes, I would leave the premises.  And I have to say that it would freak me out all over again.  That's not a behavior I can get comfortable with and let slide.

[Lilibeth]

I'm so glad i stumbled onto this page. This has been on my mind, only i didn't know how to ask this question on real or perceived triggers. I fully identify with what Surrender and the others have gone through and are going through. As Surrender says, the blows come from literally nowhere bang in the middle of what i feel is just an ordinary conversation. Thanks Waverider for your inputs. They do clarify a great deal of my confusion. My husband also does this, 123Phoebe - says something really hurtful and then says its a joke. And it's absolutely what Waverider says - normal conversations are 'strewn with mines.' Cloudy Days, this too happens - sometimes he just goes about looking for a trigger. On a so-called normal day, during an ordinary conversation, he'll suddenly pop in something which i in my concentration try to answer and that's it... . Yes, the hardest is how to deal with the rejection that normally follows these episodes. Love the way you handled it 123Phoebe. That is something i am going to try too.

[waverider]

But I would get defensive and they get triggered by defensive talk. I even realized that defending is what I do first before even trying to talk to him, I'm always trying to get him to see it my way. But the reality of it, is that they aren't going to see it our way so why waste your time talking to someone that isn't going to hear you.

This is the black and white thinking of someone has to be responsible, if you are defending then that means you are saying that you are not responsible, hence by inferral they are. Your defensive stance is then seen as an attack, hence triggering a counter defense in them

Honestly, it wasn't until I was ready to loose this relationship that I could actually open my eyes up and change myself. I have stopped focusing on him and I am focusing on how I feel for once, it's very liberating. 

This is the truth of it. It is the beginnings of independent thinking and a step away from co dependent thinking. Now you can start putting your real needs as priority

[Lilibeth]

Powerful thought here, Waverider - 'This is the black and white thinking of someone has to be responsible, if you are defending then that means you are saying that you are not responsible, hence by inferral they are. Your defensive stance is then seen as an attack, hence triggering a counter defense in them.' I see that i have unconsciously been doing this when he attacks me with his words. For instance, while we are talking, he will say something negative about something - i respond - and he gets at me for wrong thinking - i refer, or try to refer to what he said - disaster. Now i know how i should think and go about it. It is independent thinking that i am striving to build up... . i know that this is the only solution.

[Surrender]

These are all very powerful lessons that I'm learning bit by bit how to apply. I'm not very good at it yet because I tend to be super defensive naturally which makes things so much worse. Like Lillibeth said as soon as I would go into defense mode or argue my stance then his rage turned instantly more severe and scathing. I'm still trying to figure out what is the best way to respond and I'd love it if people could offer some examples of real arguments or rather attacks experienced by their significant others and how you all applied these 'tools' so as to de-escalate them and minimize the rage.

[GN]

Same here... . sometimes I get defensive when "attacked" making things much worse... . But out of experience, just leaving without saying anything may make the person leave you alone, but it at the same time it leaves you in a severe frustrated state of mind... . So I guess it's really about keeping a balance... What I've noticed is if you change topic (to something light & funny), they get distracted which defuses the situation... .

[Lilibeth]

Surrender, there is no one way - every time it has to be different depending on the vibes you feel about which direction the 'conversation' is going. Sometimes it is best to leave the room, if you can, or start doing something with your hands (i take out my needlecraft). Since Saturday he has been on collision course - anything, but anything, he says and i respond to, no matter how mildly, or even agreeing with him, is ending in his dysfunction and tension. I have been trying disengaging, disassociation of thought, and just repeating comforting things to myself. Since it is only here that i started to realize that i was someone (and not just rubbish as he makes me out to be) thanks to DreamFlyer99, Turkish and Waverider, last evening i kept telling myself the things that they had said in connection with me... . I think, also, the first thing to keep repeating is that you are not a victim (which i have been doing since this morning) - and that you can handle this and come out of it on top... . this is another thing that has helped me too. What hurts me so much is his way of trashing me - but am learning that if i tell myself that i am someone, i have a Family (this one) and friends who care, i start feeling better after a bit. I enumerate the things i have done successfully, and what my daughter says, and that also lifts me up - enough to deal with keeping myself sane and ready to handle the next issue. My husband does not change track very easily, but sometimes that too helps as GN said - just make a little space around yourself till your mind feels calm and then say something else - something that interests him. My husband does not like anything light-hearted but he is heavily into language and what he reads etc - so i tell him something that i had read, just to change track - that does help... . sometimes... . It is painful, Surrender, and sometimes really gets one down... . i copy down various techniques from here and keep them handy... . maybe you could try that? Don't lose heart though - you are definitely not alone... .