Double binds - no way out

[Ritchie53]

... . split from the mirroring thread here

I will also add to this with a little warning. Be careful, very careful of the double binds. These are high in the arsenal of the BPD and during devaluation will be in heavy play and are very tricky to navigate.

An example:- Saying one hundred times they are not accompanying you to an event that you have to attend. Giving them a final chance to come along and eventually going on your own. They then tell you the following day they were all dressed up ready to go waiting for a phonecall from you. When you question them as to why they did not come along when asked, they will say you did not ask them properly, or you didnt understand what they were going through.

Double binds will come in many forms - in your case making a decision which, if she wants it to be, could be wrong.

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[an0ught]

Dealing with double binds can be emotionally extremely taxing.

For the discussion I've simplified and personalized here a paraphrased definition from Bateson (taken from Wikipedia):

1) Double binds originate persons who are our superiors: figures of authority (such as parents), whom we respect.

2) A primary injunction is given e.g. ":)o X, or I will punish you"

3) A "secondary injunction" is imposed on the subject, conflicting with the first at a higher and more abstract level. For example: "You must do X, but only do it because you want to". It is unnecessary for this injunction to be expressed verbally.

4) If necessary, a "tertiary injunction" is imposed on the subject to prevent them from escaping the dilemma.

"I must do it, but I can't do it" is a typical description of the double-bind experience.

Getting conflicting marching orders from our SO is not uncommon. It may range from clean this up but don't make any noise to life decisions.

Any experience with it? Struggling at the moment? How do we protect ourselves best?

[Ritchie53]

It is emotionally taxing and also I found it to be cleverly used as a prelude to a full blown rage. During devaluation it is an extremely simplistic technique and one that is heavily confusing for the non. Once understood most non's will recognise these not only in their own relationships but also from reading discussions through the various boards.

How do we protect ourselves?

I think if recognised early enough a boundary can be set in place. Very difficult as the boundary will be generic and double binds can pop up at any point during any conversation. Historical double binds will be used which occured through the idealisation phase and these will have a negative affect on your 'balance' - an example of this might occur through the first couple of weeks of honeymoon period, the non will be progressing into the relationship and not all of your past will be known to the BPD good or bad, as time develops and you talk more about past ambitions, achievements, friends etc, the BPD will indicate that you were never truthful with them at the start of the relationship, they however told you everything about their past - or at least the version that is their recollection of events. You have therefore been branded untrustworthy or a liar and now have to face the task of rebuilding trust when you thought you had been building trust.

Setting a boundary of branding double binds as emotional blackmail is a key step forward, however recognising the double bind and perhaps sidestepping it early on, if you see it coming, is also effective.

[FigureIt]

My experience is that I ask my uBPD SO to go to something... . (ex. Wedding, family function)  Many times there is hemming & hawing over it.  I ask again to be accompanied.  Sometimes I am told "I can never say NO, I am always giving in." But, I don't want to say no, I want to go.  If my SO attends, many times does not enjoy self, wants to leave early, etc.  If I go alone, then I'm cold and uncaring.  I have abandoned my SO.

Or if it is a function for my child and my ex will be there, somehow an excuse of me doing something wrong is used to blame me for why my SO refuses to attend.

[FigureIt]

It is emotionally taxing and also I found it to be cleverly used as a prelude to a full blown rage. During devaluation it is an extremely simplistic technique and one that is heavily confusing for the non. Once understood most non's will recognise these not only in their own relationships but also from reading discussions through the various boards.

How do we protect ourselves?

I think if recognised early enough a boundary can be set in place. Very difficult as the boundary will be generic and double binds can pop up at any point during any conversation. Historical double binds will be used which occured through the idealisation phase and these will have a negative affect on your 'balance' - an example of this might occur through the first couple of weeks of honeymoon period, the non will be progressing into the relationship and not all of your past will be known to the BPD good or bad, as time develops and you talk more about past ambitions, achievements, friends etc, the BPD will indicate that you were never truthful with them at the start of the relationship, they however told you everything about their past - or at least the version that is their recollection of events. You have therefore been branded untrustworthy or a liar and now have to face the task of rebuilding trust when you thought you had been building trust.

Setting a boundary of branding double binds as emotional blackmail is a key step forward, however recognising the double bind and perhaps sidestepping it early on, if you see it coming, is also effective.

The whole part of the relationship start... . and being "untrustworthy" is my life and is still used against me.  I feel like I opened myself up to someone I believed would love me unconditionally and I am always the loser in the boxing match.

[Ritchie53]

Exactly spot on FigureIt.

It appears that although the 'arsenal' a BPD possesses is standard for all of them, some use the double bind to a greater or lesser extent. It is mainly used during devaluation and a way that the BPD can start exhibiting and believing that you do not care as much as you once did (during idealisation), this is shown to others, the enablers, that you left them on their own to go and enjoy yourself and there they were, lonely, unloved - it is part of the case building against you that you are unsuitable and a prelude to the abandonement fear that resides inside.

Validation of their feelings is the way around that paricular instance. It is tough and frustrating but giving in to the double bind will multiply them - recognise them, stay strong, validate their feelings about the particular case and if necessary call them out on it but set the boundary. Also use other people to validate - 'Jane will be there, shes thinks your really cool' etc, etc.

[Ritchie53]

The whole part of the relationship start... . and being "untrustworthy" is my life and is still used against me.  I feel like I opened myself up to someone I believed would love me unconditionally and I am always the loser in the boxing match.

I feel 100% for you Figure 1, and heed the warning of that( I mean that in a non-threatening way from me )

The script set to play out will be that eventually you will have built the barriers and wall surrounding her heart by your 'lies' and 'untrustworthyness' and they will tell you this, and it turn it will break your heart. They will be already sourcing a new supply, perhaps an ex so they can once again feel the freedom of the honeymoon phase, they will cut you out, act like you never existed and change character - the person you knew will no longer be that person.

To get out of this situation? an0ught has some excellent techniques on how to get around these things. Also attempt to 'future project' more as well, the devaluation comes when their own sense of self loathing starts appearing again - it is merely a projection of their pain tranposed onto you. This will make you feel pain and become depressed thus bringing them down as they are still mirroring you. 'Future Projection' is a technique used to make a person feel about the future.

BPD relationships run the rule of Idealisation, Devaluation, Discard  - a true BPD will cycle through these as a guarantee. A genuine relationship runs through honeymoon, power struggle, eventual levelling out etc.

Try and project to the BPD that you are looking forward to the 'power struggle' phase ending and thats when the levelling out of the relationship starts, total unconditional love, together forever etc. - rages are only during the 'power struggle' phase and will eventually pass off. Its a long shot and a crack shot - read a little about it from the web before moving forward with this.

[FigureIt]

The script set to play out will be that eventually you will have built the barriers and wall surrounding her heart by your 'lies' and 'untrustworthyness' and they will tell you this, and it turn it will break your heart. They will be already sourcing a new supply, perhaps an ex so they can once again feel the freedom of the honeymoon phase, they will cut you out, act like you never existed and change character - the person you knew will no longer be that person.

BPD relationships run the rule of Idealisation, Devaluation, Discard  - a true BPD will cycle through these as a guarantee. A genuine relationship runs through honeymoon, power struggle, eventual levelling out etc.

Try and project to the BPD that you are looking forward to the 'power struggle' phase ending and thats when the levelling out of the relationship starts, total unconditional love, together forever etc. - rages are only during the 'power struggle' phase and will eventually pass off. Its a long shot and a crack shot - read a little about it from the web before moving forward with this.

That script has played many times.  And due to the "mistakes" I have made in my past and decisions I've made recently.  I am untrustworthy, a liar, and can be "persuaded to do anything."  I am currently dealing with a lot of resentment these days. 

My "power struggle" phase has been going on for 2 1/2years.  I am truly not allowed to have any identity.

[IsItHerOrIsItMe]

Setting a boundary of branding double binds as emotional blackmail is a key step forward, however recognizing the double bind and perhaps sidestepping it early on, if you see it coming, is also effective.

With something as generic as double binds, how would you go about setting a boundary? 

[hurthusband]

With something as generic as double binds, how would you go about setting a boundary? 

[Ritchie53]

With something as generic as double binds, how would you go about setting a boundary? 

An exceedingly difficult question to answer. Boundary setting is normally done during the intitial phases of a relationship, however most of us are entrenched in the idealisation phase and double binds only start really appearing during devaluation, and it is not something many of us have encountered before in relationships or otherwise. Deeper into devaluation the double binds will encrouch your own personlity and beliefs. The way I see there are a few possibilites:-

1. Call them out on their behaviour. Firmly state you are not being double bound, an example if they refuse to go to an event that you have to attend, you will tell them that is acceptable, you want them to go, you are going etc, but you will not tolerate being told tomorrow or the day after that you left them on their own etc. I have had slight success with this method, but was told once when I said it that I think so low of her that she would do that - its risky as it involves telling the mark you know they behave in a dyregulated manner. However you have set a boundary.

2. Validating the double bind - equally risky as you are enabling their behaviour so this will not stop the double binds, however they will feel in 'control', - care should be taken here as in idealisation you are the 'rescuer' however in devaluation you are the 'enabler'.

3. A tough call this one - and I know how hard this one is but extremely important in a BPD relationship - the ability to walk away, and tell the BPD why you are walking away that is until they learn that you are not interested in a relationship with someone who uses those types of methods. Risk Factor? Pass on that one, it all depends on your individual relationships with your BPD - and depends on your level of emotional committment, extremely tough as in devaluation the 'original' roles are reversed, we are now the ones that are clingy, desperate for love, always trying to prove our love etc, so our emotional input is high.

The double binds are so difficult as during this period we are also being gas lighted, projected and accussed so it starts becoming an emotional labyrinth complete with 'monsters' and 'dead ends' at every turn. Try to remain composed during these binds and not let your own emotions get the better of you. The more composed you are, the better the chance of seeing them off.

 

[rubyhammer]

I had an experience with this type of blackmail just this morning:

     This morning my wife informed me the the plastic splash guard on the front underside of the car had broken and was dragging on the ground.  She suggested I tie it up or fix it myself with some zip ties.  I said I could do that but I think I'll probably bring it to the shop and have it fixed. 

     Three times in about 20 minutes she suggested the same thing, to the point where she was being quite pushy about it.  Three times I calmly stated that I understood how she felt about it and that I had decided I wanted to do it differently.

(Keep in mind this is my car, which I have paid for all along.  My wife sold her car because she feels cars are wasteful).

The fourth time, as I was just heading out the door to work, she came to me and said, "Will you please just hear me out?"

I said, "Sure.  Hear you out about what?"

She said, *sigh*  "just hear me out."

I said, "Ok.  Hear you out about what?"

She said, *pause* *sigh* *closes eyes, looks down* "I don't like it when you don't listen to me, and I don't like to talk to you when you get defensive.  I'm not mad at you.  I just want you to listen to me."

Then she proceeded to re-tell me her suggestion about jury-rigging the car.  I said I understood and I was not going to do that.  She got mad, I left.

So the implied double-bind is that if I do it her way, she'll feel ok, but I'll be left feeling controlled and manipulated.  And if I do it my way, she'll be upset, even though she verbally said "I'm not mad at you" which I feel is just a cover up for what she's actually trying to accomplish.

What is she trying to accomplish?  She's trying to control something that's not her decision.

In the past I was not able to even recognize what was happening in these situations.  I just knew that no matter what I did I would feel shameful or guilty afterwards.  Now that I am better at seeing it, I can just disengage.  It's hard to do sometimes, but it works.

[Ritchie53]

In the past I was not able to even recognize what was happening in these situations.  I just knew that no matter what I did I would feel shameful or guilty afterwards.  Now that I am better at seeing it, I can just disengage.  It's hard to do sometimes, but it works.

Diengaging is certainly a key part. The further double bind to this situation would have been that you took her advice, it was the wrong choice but in the end it is your fault for purchasing the car or why did you make us get that stupid car etc when I said we should have got a different one etc.

These are the tough times with double binds.

[hurthusband]

my problem is that disengaging with mine is not an easy option.  If I disengage, that is viewed as a slap in the face and that I do not care.  Thus why I get chased.  Literally chased...

This morning at 3 am i get awoken to the "i am miserable with you".  Ok, so how can we change things...   she wants a plan on the future.  Reasonable enough.  I ask what she thinks would be a good plan... . she refuses to give a plan.  Nothing nada.  She then goes into we do not have the money to do the things around the house, I am not home enough from work to do them, and I need a different job.

Okay... so if i am home more, that means I make less money which means we do not get things done. If I work more to make more money, I am not home to fix things.  As far as a different job, there are not exactly alot of 6 figure jobs in my area that are 40 hour work weeks, and offer vacations etc which is what she wants me to get.  Particularly with my skillset as a small business owner.  What is never mentioned is what she could do such as get a job... .

Discussing this is impossible because she will not talk rationally about it.  She says she cannot plan her life unless she knows what I am doing with mine and I meet certain criteria.  Going back to sleep is not an option.  I go downstairs, she follows.  I go upstairs, she follows.  I finally leave the house after 1.5 hours of this and literally park down the street at a strip center to get some sleep before work.  She literally finds me in her car asking me to come home and that things will be calm.  As soon as I get home, she fires off at me again.  Cursing, etc

[gary seven]

I have the same thing happeneing on a daily basis.  A new Crisis happens, she calls and says " we need to talk."  Or texts.

When I do return the call, I get a small anecdote about the crisis, but what she really wants to discuss is why the house is a mess or why the kids still don't hang up their coats, or why is the lego strewn all over the house, and why don't I help more and why did you buy this house two years ago when you knew it didn't have a yard?"

So now I take a deep breath before returning the call.

I make sure I get to listen to a favorite song of mine on youtube before I pack up my briefcase and get into the drive "so we can talk not in front of kids to figure out what's going on."  Which is usually the same story over and over again.

Some days I just want to cry.  I look to do one meaningful thing for me each day.

Today I accomplished applying for an interlibrary loan for the book : the high conflict couple."  If I bought the book she would instantly trace it.  Plus I am broke.

[Ritchie53]

Both hurthusband and Gary Seven are in similar double binds that I encountered. Particularly the sleep deprivation, this is yet another little trick to keep you off guard, you must both hold your ground the best you can - SET techniques etc can help, but also stay composed, and iron clad. I also experienced similar work vs chores at home vs night time arguments - they throw you off your game completely. Also remember that the BPD is viewing the relationship in a different way to how you are viewing it, in short you are trying to build it and they are eroding it. Be also VERY mindful that the BPD can jump ship at any point to a new host and all of this will be projected onto you, you didn't work hard enough, lazy around the house, always arguing at bedtime etc, they can dump all their craziness onto you and walk off completely happy with a new life leaving the non the arduous task of processing all that pain alone. Don't lose faith in yourselves at this point and trust your instincts. It's tough but keep your head above water and start placing your value above theirs, but don't obviously show it and take note of how the BPD is acting and not too much about what they are saying.

[an0ught]

One of the reasons why double binds are so distressing is that they are perceived inescapable and are being imposed by

   1) Double binds originate persons who are our superiors: figures of authority (such as parents), whom we respect.

   a) how do we see our SO? As a human we certainly respect them. Are we putting SO's interests before ours? Are we putting SO's authority higher than ours?

   b) do these rules originate not only from within the relationship but from our environment or childhood?

   c) how do we deal with conflicting rules? How do we deal with rules in general?

[hurthusband]

One of the reasons why double binds are so distressing is that they are perceived inescapable and are being imposed by

   1) Double binds originate persons who are our superiors: figures of authority (such as parents), whom we respect.

   a) how do we see our SO? As a human we certainly respect them. Are we putting SO's interests before ours? Are we putting SO's authority higher than ours?

   b) do these rules originate not only from within the relationship but from our environment or childhood?

   c) how do we deal with conflicting rules? How do we deal with rules in general?

Yes, one thing that I notice here on these forums is that the BPD comes from a non-supportive family growing up and alot of us seem at least a bit co-dependent, but certainly very forgiving and loving.

I am guessing this is because we came from a very loving family, but at same time, at least in my case, there were problems.

so suddenly we have a relationship with somebody who has never seen what we have seen in a family and vice versa.  We have no reference points to understand each other, and we both have a little bit of damage in us at least so we put up and enable to a degree and they take and are skeptical of everything

The only person a BPD can live with is somebody like us, but at same time, we are the type that enables them the most and maybe even causes them to spiral in a worse/more abusive state while keeping them safe.  We are hurt, but while we can empathize we do not understand no matter what we do because their minds are so much different

Its a complete cycle of beat down.  We either learn to deal with it, and hope they deal with theirs better, we run away, or we get ran over

[FigureIt]

I've also experienced the double bind in that if I don't take my SO's advice then he won't go or do something. 

I have been told multiple times when not completely agreeing with my SO that I "don't listen"... . "I do whatever I want... "  "Anyone can persuade me... . "  The persuading is because I would take the advice of someone who may have more knowledge on a topic then me. 

My uBPD SO I believe truly thinks they are the end all be all in opinions and advice.

[Ritchie53]

Figure It - an expression always used to me was 'you can't have your cake and eat it' if I did something to initiate the double bind.

[Grey Kitty]

The way I see it is that you can't get out of the double bind by definition. And when I was in that sort of a state if I somehow did find a way out, something would change so I was at fault again.

My solution is to enforce boundaries about verbal abuse (berating or punishing me) and/or circular arguments.

Yes, I could be put in the double bind. No I can't "win" in that situation. I can however refuse to accept the punishment for losing. I can't convince anybody else that I don't deserve it.

Disengaging is hard... . convincing a pwBPD that you are right to disengage is impossible. All you need to do there is convince them that you have disengaged from the argument for now.

[hurthusband]

I have been told multiple times when not completely agreeing with my SO that I "don't listen"... . "I do whatever I want... "  "Anyone can persuade me... . "  The persuading is because I would take the advice of someone who may have more knowledge on a topic then me. 

I dont listen... wow have I heard that one a ton...

a. I do listen, but I cannot remember EVERYTHING

b. I find they manage to listen to me less than I listen to them.  I am scared not to listen

c. not listening apparantly also is a qualification for not doing exactly what they say

Anyone else get a situation where they ask you to do or say something that is not that serious and you do what they ask or say, but you do not do it word for word exact and you are a failure as a result?

[gary seven]

I dont listen... wow have I heard that one a ton...

a. I do listen, but I cannot remember EVERYTHING

b. I find they manage to listen to me less than I listen to them.  I am scared not to listen

c. not listening apparantly also is a qualification for not doing exactly what they say

Anyone else get a situation where they ask you to do or say something that is not that serious and you do what they ask or say, but you do not do it word for word exact and you are a failure as a result?

HH:

Yup, that strikes a chord.  We need to make space for an art desk for my daughter.  My response to the request:  put the designated item into the agreed upon space.  Her response to my response: "That will not work because we need three rooms rearranged before we can put the desk where it belongs. And she will never go there without me. "  So I say," OK, lets do the three rooms. " Her response:" No, it will never get done."

This weekend I am planning on putting the desk and a worklight to go with it.  I think my daughter will be thrilled.  Might take till late Sunday night, but it's a goal.

[an0ught]

HH:

Yup, that strikes a chord.  We need to make space for an art desk for my daughter.  My response to the request:  put the designated item into the agreed upon space.  Her response to my response: "That will not work because we need three rooms rearranged before we can put the desk where it belongs. And she will never go there without me. "  So I say," OK, lets do the three rooms. " Her response:" No, it will never get done."

This weekend I am planning on putting the desk and a worklight to go with it.  I think my daughter will be thrilled.  Might take till late Sunday night, but it's a goal.

There are some escapes. Double binds are imposed on us by figures of authority. It is worth questioning whether they are really an authority that should have power and even if in principle yes there are specific reason that well negates it in this case like imposing contradictory demands on us. In this case it was easy - it is daughters desk after all and daughters seem to rule the heart of dads  . Probably there still will be a price to be paid by having to listen to some remarks on how the desk upsets the 3 rooms and by that the whole house.

Some rules we find ourselves caught in are harder to overcome. We may have rules from our SO contradicting the way we were brought up or fixed ideas in our head how marriage should work. As co-dependents we may have a particularly strong tendency to comply with rules and may find it hard to break them in general. Breaking rules is crossing boundaries. When doing that it may be good to review the basics:

  - is it really a double bind or is some faulty thinking behind it: Ten Forms of Twisted Thinking provides a good checklist

  - what are the values behind the rules (boundaries should be anchored in values)

  - how do these values relate to each other? Is one higher than the other? If I don't know - is there a way I can make such a decision (belief, maslow's hierarchy of needs) ?

  - what are the consequence of the decision for myself and for others.

     - if other is a party that imposed the double bind - do I own the consequence?

     - can I mitigate consequences?

[gary seven]

There are some escapes. Double binds are imposed on us by figures of authority. It is worth questioning whether they are really an authority that should have power and even if in principle yes there are specific reason that well negates it in this case like imposing contradictory demands on us. In this case it was easy - it is daughters desk after all and daughters seem to rule the heart of dads  . Probably there still will be a price to be paid by having to listen to some remarks on how the desk upsets the 3 rooms and by that the whole house.

An0ught:

thanks for the reference.

My BPDw pretty much has imprinted to the world how our daughter is "a carbon copy of Mom (herself)." "She looks just like me," etc. etc ad nauseum.  "I don't even think you contributed any genetic material to her."  It goes on and on.  So it has been very hard to relate to my daughter because of the mantra my BPDw keeps chanting.

So this desk is my chance to do something Dad like for my little girl.  She's 7 and has a fascinating sense of art and color.  No doubt she got her abilities directly from her blue-yellow colorblind father!

And there will be a sh^#tstorm to follow as a result of a perceived disobedience, but since I can think clearly now about it, I will prepare to not engage.  May not get much sleep on Sunday night.  Oh well.  The couch is comfortable enough.

[maryy16]

I, too, also get the "You never listen to me".  This usually comes about when I ask him for advice, but I don't agree with his solution to the problem.

If I ask him for advice and don't take it, watch out! It is very difficult to ask advice from him, listen, but have to explain or point out reasons why his solution won't work.

That will completely throw him into a tailspin.  He'll get angry and say things like "why ask me, if you don't want my advice?", "you just talk for the sake of talking", or "why do you ask, if you don't want an answer".

He takes everything so personally and sees everything as an attack, plus he can be narcissistic, so he cannot believe that his solution will not work.  And, even if he did somehow realize that his solution was not right, he could never admit it. He will just get angry to cover up his true emotions.

[hurthusband]

Advice and decision making... o my... that is a trap

a. You do it your way.  If it works, they are upset that your way was better.  If it does not work... you will be blasted, blamed, and tortured forever for it

b. You do it their way.  If it works, great everything it good, but it reinforces their thoughts that its their way or the highway.  If it does not work... you are stuck with consequences and if they do admit they are wrong, they will find a way to deflect it onto something else or will completely breakdown that they are failures

I have been to the point that I just let her get her way.  If something goes wrong, it can really hurt, but problems tend to be logical and predictable from there on out.  That is much better than having to deal with her being pissed off and the unpredictable nature of at any moment, her berated you or melting down.  It could happen while you are at work, while you are sleeping, at any time.  You have no clue what form it might take.  Absolute fear... fear of the unknown and of being emotionally and possibly physically abused.

That is the hardest thing for me.  The complete fear at all times of being blindsided with no triggers.  Everything can go well, then bam... they think of something and blast you

That article is great... I had not seen it here. 

I certainly fall under the Personalization and Blame.  My wife is literally all of them

[Ritchie53]

I have been to the point that I just let her get her way.  If something goes wrong, it can really hurt, but problems tend to be logical and predictable from there on out.  That is much better than having to deal with her being pissed off and the unpredictable nature of at any moment, her berated you or melting down.  It could happen while you are at work, while you are sleeping, at any time.  You have no clue what form it might take.  Absolute fear... fear of the unknown and of being emotionally and possibly physically abused.

That is the hardest thing for me.  The complete fear at all times of being blindsided with no triggers.  Everything can go well, then bam... they think of something and blast you

That article is great... I had not seen it here.

I certainly fall under the Personalization and Blame.  My wife is literally all of them

Excellent piece from hurthusband, and herein lies the problem with the double binds, I also became very fearful due to these, this led on to me being branded a liar as I tried to pre-empt the double binds. Once the double bind is shown to have an affect on you they are then heavily in play and, as stated, you are not safe even at times such as work and sleep.

[hurthusband]

I have been to the point that I just let her get her way.  If something goes wrong, it can really hurt, but problems tend to be logical and predictable from there on out.  That is much better than having to deal with her being pissed off and the unpredictable nature of at any moment, her berated you or melting down.  It could happen while you are at work, while you are sleeping, at any time.  You have no clue what form it might take.  Absolute fear... fear of the unknown and of being emotionally and possibly physically abused.

That is the hardest thing for me.  The complete fear at all times of being blindsided with no triggers.  Everything can go well, then bam... they think of something and blast you

That article is great... I had not seen it here.

I certainly fall under the Personalization and Blame.  My wife is literally all of them

Excellent piece from hurthusband, and herein lies the problem with the double binds, I also became very fearful due to these, this led on to me being branded a liar as I tried to pre-empt the double binds. Once the double bind is shown to have an affect on you they are then heavily in play and, as stated, you are not safe even at times such as work and sleep.

yup... 4 am this morning came the daily emotional outburst.  This time it was intense crying on how I would be better off without her. Of course, I keep trying to be emotionally supportive... then comes the outburst of you do not care, you just want to go back to sleep.

Both are true

a. I do care and want to do whatever I can, but there is really not much I can do

b. I do want to go back to sleep, I am tired of this constant problem of being woken up at 4 am every morning for a tantrum or sadness.  If you are upset that you are hurting me, how about not waking me up at 4 am in the morning.  It is simple stuff

I am feeling a bit cold about the whole BPD thing today if you cannot tell.  Therapy for my wife is not working, meds are not working, each day is more and more worse.  Both for her and as a result me.  

The thing that sucks is it really is a leave somebody behind to die in misery to save yourself.  The problem is trying to live with doing that.  you love them, you see their good qualities, you empathize with them, but rationality with the illness is out the window

You basically get one shot at standing strong... you gotta stand strong against double blinds and all these sick tools.  As soon as you give in even one time, they have you and there is no turning back.  It is not cause they want to hurt you, but they are sick.  The result is that the illness is infectious.  BPD infects the SO but creates a different kind of craziness of self doubt, guilt, and emotionally abused

I am curious how many of us could actually qualify as having PSTD just from dealing with a BPD.  My first thought was that is insane, but if you read the symptoms of PSTD and you think of how you are thinking with your BPD... its not that crazy

[Ritchie53]

You basically get one shot at standing strong... you gotta stand strong against double blinds and all these sick tools.  As soon as you give in even one time, they have you and there is no turning back.  It is not cause they want to hurt you, but they are sick.  The result is that the illness is infectious.  BPD infects the SO but creates a different kind of craziness of self doubt, guilt, and emotionally abused

I am curious how many of us could actually qualify as having PSTD just from dealing with a BPD.  My first thought was that is insane, but if you read the symptoms of PSTD and you think of how you are thinking with your BPD... its not that crazy

Yes and yes. We do not see the double binds as many of us have never encountered them before in our lives. They are very insidious and go a step further than emotional blackmail and couple them with triangulation, circular conversations etc they become a formidable tool. PTSD is a very REAL factor in these situations, the double bind in particular, the constant being in the wrong whichever action you take really does lead into a state of learned helplessness. We end up slowly losing our soul,spirit and body from their behaviour and this is just taken as another sign that we do not care for or understand them.

[Louise7777]

To be honest, I didnt read the whole thread (yet), but something caught my eye:

"What is she trying to accomplish?  She's trying to control something that's not her decision."

Thats what I see with my uBPD/NPD relatives. Im not married to a PD, but anyway I wanted to join cause it will be helpful to me to see what solutions you guys find. Im going through the same with a "figure of authority" (in her head, at least). It has been going on for 3 years and I engaged, disengaged and now Im thinking of fighting back, because no matter how much I avoid her dramas and picking on me she finds new ones. I know it takes two to tango but this woman seems unstopable... . Its all about control of something thats not her business at all. I feel for you all, its not easy! Thank you for this thread.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[hurthusband]

I would not advise fighting back.  The reason being is that there is no rationality in them and there is no winning an argument with them.  All it really does is prolong the fight.  Any valid points you make will be distorted in their heads.

At least with me if i said "how would you feel being told you are a hitty lousy spouse who is incompetant and cannot provide".  They would not even acknowledge that that would feel bad, it would be brushed off and start a different attack

It is not fighting a losing battle, it is just a battle that never ends.  Like World War I or something... everyone draws their lines and then goes to fight cause this or that line is crossed, suddenly you have all out world war taking place forever and a day with the toll being even heavier than if you had just let the line be crossed

I cannot disengage myself, but it seems that you gotta set boundaries early, validate early, and learn to disengage to stay healthy with a BPD

I hate to say it, but the best advice is to stay away from them all together.

I cannot say that I have seen the "successful" people who stay on these boards say they have a "happy marriage".  They just manage to keep their sanity and some joy in their lives which alot of us would kill for.  Sad way to live really, but its love...