How to handle divorce threats during dysregulation?

[Moselle]

Hi all,

Separated uBPDw is going wild and threatening courts of law and divorce.

I apparently didn't show enough empathy yesterday when she phoned me about a druggie who jumped on her car and tried to get in. I was very busy at work and to be honest I wasn't that empathetic. I was having a very difficult time emotionally, and asked for some space for a few days. Well she blew her top.

It's hard not to take the divorce threats at face value, heck it might be the best thing for all.

But I have made a decision to try and work it out, and it hurts in a way that is debilitating.

I refused to fight and just repeated "I respect your choices" and tried to empathise with her, as she raged.

Some history - I set alot of boundaries last week about our individual rights as human beings. So she must be feeling threatened by the changes.

At my request for two days of emotional space.

Her response was: "That will not stand in a court of law. In fact that will count heavily against you. This is over"

My response "That's OK, I respect your choice, but I will send you a letter. Please read it before making a decision. I will need a few days to draft it

Any tips by others on how to handle the divorce threats?

Any advice of what to put in the letter?

I have wanted to write this letter for some time, but during the last 10 weeks of separation my understanding of the disease as grown exponentially. I am willing to work with her provided she accepts responsibility for recovery from the disease and her behaviour. I know this is the holy grail of BPD relationships, but how do they get there? I recognise that is completely their choice and I have no control over their choices, but how long should someone wait?

How do you make a stay or go decision?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[In_n_Out]

My non-professional opinions:

1. "I respect your choices" doesn't validate her emotions and comes off sounding condescending to her.  Try "this seems to have made you very <emotion: angry, sad, etc)>.  Can you tell me more about why this has made you <emotion>?".  Listen, ask questions about how/what/why she is feeling what she is, validate, show that you are engaged by leaning forward and nodding and giving verbal affirmation.

2. Boundaries for *her* are rules.  Boundaries for yourself are your own set limitations on how much you will take before extricating yourself from the current situation in order to regulate your own emotions and then readdress the issue at hand.  The tact for how you let her know that is a skillset in and of itself. Perhaps "I am becoming emotional about this discussion.  I would like to take some time to make some sound decisions.  I'm going to go <somewhere> but I am letting you know that I will be back to talk about this some more with you".

3. Long letters will go mostly unread so while it may be therapeutic for you, it won't be absorbed by her.  She'll start to read it and the very first thing that she perceives as being negative or invalidating, she will close her email or fold the letter and put it away.  And then she will withdraw/rage/dysregulate even more.  In my personal experience.  Face to face talks in short bursts with lots of emotional validation, hugging, hand holding, tear wiping works best.  You will only be able to get in so much of your "instructions" before she will begin to withdraw.  That's when you regroup, reach out to her, validate her emotions and reassure her that you want to listen to her thoughts about how she is feeling about things.

Just my $.02

[MissyM]

Hey, Aveyon.  I feel for you, as my dBPDh and I are in a similar situation.  I think In-n-out is correct on the short in person conversations.  I am out of town right now and my dBPDh is threatening constantly.  He is angry that we are separated but has broken his agreements in the therapeutic separation.  Now we have no plan for him moving home and he is angry and dysregulated.  It doesn't sound like you guys have a clear plan, either.  I think that not having a plan of action and living in limbo are very difficult for a BPD.  Somehow talking in person is usually less intense than phone, text or email with my dBPDh.  It is easier to read negative emotion into the words than when I physically reach out for him.  Of course, I have to be in a good emotional state for this to go well.  If I am sick or tired, I will react to his button pushing.  I hurt my back and reacted on the phone with him yesterday, lots of JADEing.  Just picking myself up and preparing for our next conversation, which will be full of more blame and anger at me.  Ugh!

So, maybe set a time to get together and talk.  Prepare ahead of time how you will respond to her typical dysregulation, this usually helps me. 

[Moselle]

Thanks guys.

Great advice. It really is

[Love Is Not Enough]

In_n_Out summed it up nicely. I agree about not sending a letter. Anything in writing is a bad idea because they will usually twist something and they will always have it to throw back in your face. They get so much information from your non verbal cues that it is really important to speak to them. Just be sure to be aware of all the non verbal cues you are putting out there.

With validation stick to "you" statements, not "I". In_n_Out gave you some good examples. Reread all the validation tools and really think about how to say things. My gf likes to fight by text and many times I end up writing things down that I would rather say in person. So I keep it very short and to the point using SET and I do not JADE. So far it has worked for me.

Think carefully about your boundaries. In_n_Out made a great point about them being for you, not rules for her. This is where the "I" comes into play. Validate HER and protect YOURSELF with boundaries.

Deciding to go comes down to her ultimately. Now that you are learning how to communicate with her give it some time. You are already separated which is a good thing in my opinion because it gives you both space to recharge. Now YOU have to work really hard and use all the tools to make communications better with her. If you know you are doing a better job communicating with her and she is still angry all of the time then you may have to consider ending it. Basically you have to provide the best environment possible for them to recover in while protecting yourself. Then it is their decision to improve themselves or go down in flames. They will work on it when they are self aware and ready to. My gf finally became self aware and saw how her actions were destroying her life and everyone close to her. She wanted to get better but our fights kept getting worse. After a really bad one I set some boundaries and worked hard on implementing the lessons. I also used the fight as leverage to get her into DBT. Ultimately though she was just at a point in her life that she wanted to move forward. She has been improving slowly the last 5 months.

Just take it one day at a time. Do the best that you can and take care of yourself. Hopefully she will come around and things will slowly improve.

[Grey Kitty]

Good advice already... . and I don't know enough of your history to know how applicable this is anyhow, but here is my take on dysregulated divorce threats:

Response at the time: (assuming you want to stay together / get back together) I do not want to divorce you. I want to make things work with you. If you choose to divorce me, I can't make you stay.

Afterwords, when she calms down... . I just don't bring up her prior threats--if she is feeling that way, she can bring it up (again).

Often there is no action and follow through.

Hang in there!

 GK

[SweetCharlotte]

I'm not saying that this is the way to go, but here is what happened with us:

My uBPDh threatened me with divorce frequently starting right after we were wed. At first I gave him Grey Kitty's response. Then I started saying, "No way; I'll fight you on it." That definitely made him do it more. Finally, I paid an attorney and had him served, had the papers drawn up and the case put on the docket. He asked to work it out. I lost a couple thousand dollars, but he has NEVER threatened divorce since.

[Moselle]

Thanks Sweet Charlotte

That was a great idea. It reminds me that its really what we do that counts, not what we say! Were you serious about the divorce papers? Would you have followed through?

I've spent 6 weeks, (for the first time in 14 years) empathising, sympathising and validating her. She is confused by it and saying stop being 'sickly sweet' to me. She says I'm trying to manipulate her, but she has also opened up in some ways. I'm staying consistent with that at the moment.

Could I serve her with divorce papers, and stay consistent with my new found skills of empathy and validation? Would it not undo the work I've done? It would be easy for me to do. One of my close friends is a divorce lawyer.

If she continues to infringe on my boundaries however, I will have no choice but to serve her as I'm not willing to continue a relationship where that is the norm.

My rights:

Peace

Self determination and autonomy.

Security of personal effects

Truth

Justice and fairness.

Freedom from cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment

Right to dignity

Right to be treated kindly and with respect

Security from violence and or threats

Right to privacy.

The right to leave, if persecuted.

The right to freedom of opinion and expression

The right to uninterrupted rest and leisure.

Within a relationship we have the right to understanding, tolerance and friendship.

We have the right to effective remedy for violation of these rights

[MissyM]

Averyon - I would NOT file for divorce as a manipulation tactic.  That will usually backfire. It would likely cause a huge escalation.  If you are thinking of divorcing, I would read the book Splitting.  Divorce from someone with a PD is a messy, chaotic, and sometimes dangerous thing.  My dBPDh and I divorced while he was on drugs, it was hell.  Fortunately, I have a lot more support and knowledge this time.  I will be much better prepared if that is what happens.  They accuse you of crazy things and wage war in a divorce.  When there are children involved, protecting them is the most important thing.

[Moselle]

Thanks for the warning Missy M.

I realised the danger in this a while back, and I've been documenting behaviors which I think she would not like publically aired.

1. A bogus insurance claim she made in my name for $20000. I had her sign an affidavit that she acted in her own capacity without my knowledge.

2. A credit card fraud where she absconded with  my credit card and went on a spree claiming she nothing about it, until I signed a fraud application at the bank saying neither I nor any member of the family used the card. When the banks came back with proof that she had done it, she confessed

3. A diagnosis of impulse control disorder and eating disorder.

By the way I needed these in the legal process to protect myself from the institutions involved.

Her parents have agreed that if it comes to that, that it should be done amicably so I think I have the downside risk covered. But I'm sure she will have some curveballs for me.

As I learn more and more about this disease (I am only a recent joiner) I get more and more fearful of the potential issues.

It truly is scary. She has my three children with her. It's almost like blackmail isn't it ? Do what I say or I'll unravel dragging you and the children with me.

Truly tragic. I'm only realizing now how bizarre it has been for 14 years. It's almost as though I was anaesthetised through it all.

[MissyM]

It truly is scary. She has my three children with her. It's almost like blackmail isn't it ? Do what I say or I'll unravel dragging you and the children with me.

Yes, and they will drag the kids.  Is there any way you could get them for the majority of the time?

[Moselle]

No MissyM, not a chance at all.

In her mind she's convinced I'm out to snatch the children from her. In her small world, I and everyone else is out to get her.

I have only recently realised how highly functioning she actually is. She seems to have reserves of energy for mischief I would not have thought possible. She has waged war with an ex business partner of mine, who stole money. I said it's not worth going after him. There is a Chinese proverb which says: "If you are looking for revenge, you better dig two graves" . She is still digging, LOL probably 15 graves for good measure.

I speak to the children twice daily and try to see them every two weeks. I now live I a ciity 2 hrs flight away, so it's difficult and I'm heart sore for them

[SweetCharlotte]

I do not recommend filing for divorce as a reverse-psychology tactic, even though it seems to have worked that way for me. I could not have predicted it. I was deadly serious about divorcing him at that point, and prepared to go through with it. I had reached the end of my rope over his threats, accusations, and lengthening episodes of silent treatment.

Good luck to you with your wife if you want to stay married.

[Moselle]

Yes, I agree. I would not do it unless I was 100% sure I wanted to divorce. And I'm no where near that now. It be taken out of my hands by her and her mother, but I am consistent in my newly developing empathetic and validating skills.

Thanks for taking the time to share your story with me

[Grey Kitty]

It sounds like you don't really want a divorce... . you want a marriage w/o the abuse and control. Boundary enforcement can give you most of what you want.

One more thought about asking for/filing for/threatening divorce:

A pwBPD may do it dozens of times, and back down each time. When you do it for the first time, it *IS* different. SweetCharlotte had a positive impact. My own experiences were that it raised the stakes for the pwBPD a LOT, and that wasn't really positive. I never took it as far as she did.

Just because she's making threats doesn't stop this from being a huge act of abandonment that *will* provoke a reaction.

I would also suggest that if you are even contemplating divorce, go over to the Legal board, post about your situation, and ask what to expect if you try to divorce. I've spent some time on that board, and there is a lot of nasty crap flying.

And I concur--don't make idle threats with a pwBPD. Nothing good will come of it.

[Moselle]

Thanks Grey Kitty,

That's great advice.

I have stayed away from that part of the website, but now that divorce is a distinct possibility I think I need deal with the reality of what it will look like if it happens.

All the best.

Moselle

[Grey Kitty]

If she continues to infringe on my boundaries however, I will have no choice but to serve her as I'm not willing to continue a relationship where that is the norm.

You may be left with no choice here... . but her infringing on your boundaries is something YOU can work on. What we recommend here is that you view boundaries as something that you enforce to protect yourself. If you do it this way, she cannot infringe upon them. Read our workshops on it if you haven't already.

BOUNDARIES: Upholding our values and independence

BOUNDARIES: Case studies

My rights:

Peace

Self determination and autonomy.

Security of personal effects

Truth

Justice and fairness.

Freedom from cruel, inhuman, or degrading treatment or punishment

Right to dignity

Right to be treated kindly and with respect

Security from violence and or threats

Right to privacy.

The right to leave, if persecuted.

The right to freedom of opinion and expression

The right to uninterrupted rest and leisure.

Within a relationship we have the right to understanding, tolerance and friendship.

We have the right to effective remedy for violation of these rights

You won't get the whole list this way... . but huge changes are possible... . and you can do it yourself; she doesn't have to agree to anything.

Here's a simple example, using verbal abuse:

If you tell (ask) her not to verbally abuse you, and then she does it, she infringes your boundary.

Instead, if she starts to verbally abuse you, YOU take the action. Remove yourself from the discussion. Do it as quietly and peacefully as you can, but simply end the discussion, and if she keeps talking, leave the room.

In this case, you are enforcing your own boundary. In this model, you have the power. In the other model, she has the power. I'm sure you have tried the first method already. If you haven't, try the second and see if it doesn't work better!

Hope this helps.

 GK

[Moselle]

Instead, if she starts to verbally abuse you, YOU take the action. Remove yourself from the discussion. Do it as quietly and peacefully as you can, but simply end the discussion, and if she keeps talking, leave the room.

In this case, you are enforcing your own boundary. In this model, you have the power. In the other model, she has the power. I'm sure you have tried the first method already. If you haven't, try the second and see if it doesn't work better!


 GK

Thanks GK. I am learning a whole new set of skills. It has really been a whirlwind few months. I only joined this site on 11 Feb and it seems like a lifetime has passed under the bridge since.

She dysregulated again last night and today, threatening all sorts of divorce and courts etc. I was able to hold my own by using In_N_Out's advice above (thanks In_N_Out!) I said "I can see you are very emotional and upset, sorry for that. I am taking some time to get my emotions under control. I'll be happy to message again at 15:00"

It gives me a few hours get all my work done, and also get myself ready emotionally.  I don't know how many times she can threaten this and have any reaction. Sometime it has to lose its power completely. Surely after 10 such events, she can't say "I really mean it this time"