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Author Topic: Worst form of crazy making?  (Read 1125 times)
mssalty
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« on: March 14, 2014, 09:46:52 PM »

When I first discovered BPD, it was after feeling like my memory was shot and that my version of events had no bearing on what my SO was experiencing or telling me at happened.   I also had no concept of how anyone could lie about minor things that could come back on them.   They never left a door open, broke anything in the house, left something unlocked, spilled anything that wasn't cleaned up, moved the thing that you knew was someplace and disappeared (but you'd magically find somewhere you never would have put it.)    I can remember being accused of using something of my SO's and losing it and me insisting I hadn't.  When the item magically reappeared, I figured I'd be told that I put them back without my SO knowing, but NO, I was told that the item was not actually the same thing, but a totally different version that was inferior (this wasn't true). 

The conflicting events and the lies used to get to me until I realized my memory wasn't feeling and there was a reason for it (BPD). 

What just dawned on me is the most insidious form of crazy making, the inability to say sorry for the little things (or the big things).    For instance, if you're preoccupied, feeling stressed, or sad, and your BPD needs something, not only do they fail to recognize your feelings, but when they need something, they'll make sure you feel like garbage for expressing any frustration, sorrow, anger, or anything that normal people might feel occasionally.   Years of having my own feelings and right to them invalidated have really taken their toll.   It's as though your only importance is catering to their feelings, and any frustration directly or indirectly that impacts them is out of bounds in the relationship.  In situations where you might say, "I'm sorry, you seem upset", they'll say "what's your problem?   Don't take it out on me."

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« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2014, 10:31:28 PM »

I remember my uBPDxw telling me days after my Dad had died that "I wasn't any fun anymore" Talk about being self centered!  She couldn't even relate to the feeling that I was grieving a MAJOR loss in the death of my Father.  All she could see was that I wasn't meeting HER needs. The hell with the pain I was going through. She needed me to entertain her... . "What am I a Freaking clown? Am I hear to entertain You" ... . LMAO!
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« Reply #2 on: March 15, 2014, 05:41:46 AM »

they'll make sure you feel like garbage for expressing any frustration, sorrow, anger, or anything that normal people might feel occasionally.   

As you work on yourself and your own self believe, you will realize they can't make you feel like garbage, you can only make yourself feel like garbage for taking the words of an ill mind as true indications of your worth.

Yes you will still get annoyed and frustrated by it, but it wont make you feel like garbage. Sometimes it is a bit like the neighborhood dog that barks every night a few streets away, it plays on your mind but ultimately you know its not about you, and you cant stop it, so have to learn not let it get under your skin, as you have no option.
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« Reply #3 on: March 18, 2014, 08:10:16 AM »



This really hit home.  I remember a trip years back to my parents.  I only saw them once a year because of the travel distance, so parting was always bittersweet.  I was pre-occupied with processing these feelings as we started our drive home.  As I tried to express these feelings to my uBPDw, it was like a piece of lumber meeting a buzz saw.  After invalidating my feelings she launched into a long rant about her feelings and how no one cared about them, especially myself and my family.   This consumed the rest of the long drive home, she kept escalating and escalating.  Nothing would validate her feelings or get her to stop.  So to survive the learned behavior was to forget about my feelings and to constantly on watch for being sensitive to her feelings.
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Mike_confused
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« Reply #4 on: March 18, 2014, 08:55:09 AM »

Classic.  The situations described are text book.

Absolutely the same situation I am in and the same treatment I get.  my BPDw shows no regard or consideration for my feelings or needs whatsoever.   I hear about her stress and hurt feelings constantly.  I am actually to the point where I just don't listen or engage her.

A year ago she flipped out for no reason I can understand, other than that I was trying to explain how I felt about something.  She told me that "not everything is about you" (hell, with her nothing is about me except my salary).  As I pressed the issue she picked up a kitchen chair and hit me with it.  Yup.   Over the head.   Good thing I am tough  .

I packed my stuff and moved to my ancestral homestead about 30 miles away.  I did not speak to her for 4 months.   She during that time kept telling me she wanted a divorce.  She said we should just have it mediated.   Nothing happened so I contacted a mediator.  She suffered a full on melt down asking me what the rush was. (none of this should surprise any one with BPD experience).    The short version is that she swore that she would change.   She got into therapy.   Things were getting better.   Wait for it... .

Of course she is now on the downward part of the cycle again.  She tells me I don't feel anything and that I am not working on the marriage the way she is (i have stayed with her.  I pay all her bills.  although I do not live with her full time I am there 3 nights a week - pretty good considering the chair thing).  According to her, I am not working on the marriage properly - in other words, in her evangelical Christian way (a further failed effort to control me)

I attempted to explain my feelings.   She did not want to hear it because I am "disrespectful" toward her feelings.

The truth is that I want to hear her feelings.  I want to know.   However, she only needs to say it once, not rant for hours on end repetitively.   I walk away and do not tolerate being her captive audience.    Or i drive away.  It is exhausting.

She has no idea how far she has pushed me.  I am a step away from telling her to go to hell.  Again.
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« Reply #5 on: March 18, 2014, 05:38:48 PM »

The truth is that I want to hear her feelings.  I want to know.   However, she only needs to say it once, not rant for hours on end repetitively.   I walk away and do not tolerate being her captive audience.    Or i drive away.  It is exhausting.

This is the whole problem. It is not about you understanding (that would be about your need), it is they want to tell you (that is about their needs). They are often stuck in the process of needing to tell you stuff. This is neediness at work.

As you know neediness cannot be sated. Hence if you explicitly demonstrate you understand, this does not stop the complaining. If necessary it will just move to something else.

If the issue is coming from you that is blocking their own need to let drama out. In fact it can make it worse as it is like a backwash as they take on the emotion and own it for themselves. You then cop the blame for adding to their issues

Drama is about the need for drama as an outlet, it is rarely completely about the issue at hand, that was just the trigger.
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Mike_confused
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« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2014, 08:21:23 AM »

Waverider,

thank you.  you summed it up well: the BPD person is so needy that it never ends.  Once one need is satisfied it is on to the next.  It is exhausting, energy sucking, and debilitating. 

Whenever I have a personal need I am afraid to discuss it with my BPD wife.  She needs validation every second of the day.  I am getting to the point where I may need some too!

Talk about crazy making.   Does anyone else feel this way?
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« Reply #7 on: March 19, 2014, 02:27:18 PM »

Waverider,

thank you.  you summed it up well: the BPD person is so needy that it never ends.  Once one need is satisfied it is on to the next.  It is exhausting, energy sucking, and debilitating. 

Whenever I have a personal need I am afraid to discuss it with my BPD wife.  She needs validation every second of the day.  I am getting to the point where I may need some too!

Talk about crazy making.   :)oes anyone else feel this way?

Let's validate each other... . I am at a very similar point where I dared to express my feelings and I am being accused of being the bad guy.
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« Reply #8 on: March 19, 2014, 02:32:41 PM »

This analogy has always resonated for me:

Imagine walking into your backyard one day and discovering a deep hole in the ground--so deep you can't see the bottom.  The hole looks dark and menacing.  You really, really don't like this hole in your yard.  You decide the answer is to fill it up. 

So, you go into your garage and see an old bike.  You think, I used to like this old bike, but I don't mind losing it if it takes care of that hole.  So you throw your bike into the hole, where it vanishes without a trace.  But the hole is still there.  So, you go get all of your old favorite books from the house, and toss them in too.  They disappear, but the hole remains.  Soon, your DVD collection, computer games, musical instruments, and all the "frivolous" things in your house go down that hole, but nothing helps, the hole is as deep as ever.  Increasingly distressed, you can start to toss more important things down the hole too.  Work tools, money, foods, and, eventually, friends and family members, all vanish down that hole.

Eventually, all you have is an empty, lonely house with a big hole still in the back yard.

The day you decide to stop trying to fill that hole with important things from your life is the day you have decided to start taking care of yourself.   

My point is that giving up your hobbies, passions, work and relationships will not "change" your partner or fill the emotional hole in them. You really, really can't "make" them be happy or whole or anything else.
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« Reply #9 on: March 19, 2014, 05:13:00 PM »

Yeeter thats the exact same analogy I almost quoted... Smiling (click to insert in post)

I used to have a picture of a black hole as my desk top background just so I wouldn't forget. My partner once asked me why it was there, I almost replied I like to have a picture of you on my desk... Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #10 on: March 19, 2014, 05:39:34 PM »

Lol Bullet: comment directed to __ (click to insert in post) wave.


Good to see you managing through it.   Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

I need to give some updates, but that a different thread

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« Reply #11 on: March 19, 2014, 07:54:33 PM »

they'll make sure you feel like garbage for expressing any frustration, sorrow, anger, or anything that normal people might feel occasionally.   

As you work on yourself and your own self believe, you will realize they can't make you feel like garbage, you can only make yourself feel like garbage for taking the words of an ill mind as true indications of your worth.

Yes you will still get annoyed and frustrated by it, but it wont make you feel like garbage. Sometimes it is a bit like the neighborhood dog that barks every night a few streets away, it plays on your mind but ultimately you know its not about you, and you cant stop it, so have to learn not let it get under your skin, as you have no option.

I've gotten to the point in the first paragraph where I don't let my self esteem suffer due to the accusations, the lectures, the twisted psychoanalysis (often projection) by my BPDw.

But it is so.  Effing.  Annoying.  As it happens over and over.  It's still exhausting just to have to deal with it.
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« Reply #12 on: March 19, 2014, 08:04:11 PM »

I remember my uBPDxw telling me days after my Dad had died that "I wasn't any fun anymore" Talk about being self centered!  She couldn't even relate to the feeling that I was grieving a MAJOR loss in the death of my Father.  All she could see was that I wasn't meeting HER needs. The hell with the pain I was going through. She needed me to entertain her... . "What am I a Freaking clown? Am I hear to entertain You" ... . LMAO!

Sorry about your father.  I have a similar story about my father's battle with cancer.  He had a setback that we discussed over the phone and when I relayed the conversation to my BPDw, she started in about how she's having a really rough time, too (housework, kids).  I told her in soft, but incredulous tone, "My dad just shared something with me about how scared he is about his outlook which makes me scared, too.  I wanted to share that with you and instead you immediately go on about yourself."  At that she got livid and said loudly, "How come you have empathy for your dad, but none for me?"  By then I learned to disengage, but the night was lost.

P.S. My dad made it through the setback fine.
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« Reply #13 on: March 19, 2014, 08:34:42 PM »

Yeeter

I have talked to numerous doctors. I have degrees of my own in mental health. I have read books, hours and hours of research... . everything I could to understand this disorder. Not once has it been made as clear as that analogy. I just started bawling because there was just this overwhelming sense of relief and instant understanding. It is the hardest concept in the world to grasp completely. Nothing, absolutely nothing I do will ever make my husband ok. There is an odd sense of freedom in that... . thank you for posting that.
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« Reply #14 on: March 20, 2014, 06:54:48 AM »

Hugs Misneach

 

The original author is one of the old timers on here so thank the board as a whole, just another way in which this site is so very very helpful.

To me it is a turning point to realize that it is genuinely a black hole.  Infinitely deep.  Because after realizing that, you now make a CHOICE every time you choose to throw something down it.  This sense of choice is empowering, and one of the key steps to recovery and rebuilding yourself.

Take care of yourself.      Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #15 on: March 20, 2014, 08:47:57 AM »

The black hole analogy is perfect.  I have tried to fill it.  I have been chewed up in the process, including financially.  Nothing I do to help can help my BPDw.  The only thing that comes of my help is abuse in the form of wild accusations and general criticism.

I do not know where to go from here.
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« Reply #16 on: March 20, 2014, 09:27:29 AM »

here i get up on my hobbyhorse again ... .

As you work on yourself and your own self believe, you will realize they can't make you feel like garbage, you can only make yourself feel like garbage for taking the words of an ill mind as true indications of your worth.

there's proleptic reasoning in your post, waverider: you've got people already fully absorbing that the mind of their partner is mentally ill, while they are still in a relationship, which by definition is an interpersonal experience. full detachment = no vulnerability = no relationship.

i.imgur.com/CWFTYoV.png

only a statue can really come to feel no effect at all from the opinions of others, whatever the mental condition. if nobody can make you feel like garbage, they can't either make you feel loved, or included, or appreciated, or indeed anything. is that the best life?

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« Reply #17 on: March 20, 2014, 10:53:52 AM »

Excellent point.   You can't completely detach from your BPD spouse and still maintain a relationship.   I have tried with moderate success, but you can only go so far.
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HopefulDad
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« Reply #18 on: March 20, 2014, 11:01:41 AM »

here i get up on my hobbyhorse again ... .

As you work on yourself and your own self believe, you will realize they can't make you feel like garbage, you can only make yourself feel like garbage for taking the words of an ill mind as true indications of your worth.

there's proleptic reasoning in your post, waverider: you've got people already fully absorbing that the mind of their partner is mentally ill, while they are still in a relationship, which by definition is an interpersonal experience. full detachment = no vulnerability = no relationship.

i.imgur.com/CWFTYoV.png

only a statue can really come to feel no effect at all from the opinions of others, whatever the mental condition. if nobody can make you feel like garbage, they can't either make you feel loved, or included, or appreciated, or indeed anything. is that the best life?

It's not so much detachment as much as it is practicing a whole lot of mindfulness... . the exact thing we wish our pwBPD would do more.

Of course hearing the initial barbs from your pwBPD is going to sting, but that's when the mindfulness needs to kick in... . remind yourself the state of mind the person attacking you is in.  Remind yourself that you are not the garbage person that this person is painting you to be, that they are just lashing out.

The longer we're with them, hopefully the better we get at detecting their true colors vs. the BPD-masked ones.  It's when they show their true colors we can relax a bit on the mindfulness and just let ourselves feel the love, the inclusion, the appreciation or even the opposites (when not emotionally dysregulated).
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Mike_confused
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« Reply #19 on: March 20, 2014, 11:52:04 AM »

Why should or would any of us continue to essentially coddle these emotional children?  I know it is the disorder, but emotions aside my BPDw HAS to understand intellectually that she is miserable to be.  Do they NOT believe that any of us that are NON's WOULD NOT PULL THE PLUG ON THEM IF THEY PUSH US FAR AND HARD ENOUGH?
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« Reply #20 on: March 20, 2014, 12:07:35 PM »

Why should or would any of us continue to essentially coddle these emotional children?  I know it is the disorder, but emotions aside my BPDw HAS to understand intellectually that she is miserable to be.  Do they NOT believe that any of us that are NON's WOULD NOT PULL THE PLUG ON THEM IF THEY PUSH US FAR AND HARD ENOUGH?

Since this is the Staying board, I'm sure everyone here has their own answer to "why".

My wife has had very lucid moments where she has said, "I can imagine how difficult it must be for you to come home every night, wondering if you're facing 'loving wife' or 'angry wife'."  But those moments are drowned out by the anger, the rage, the judgments, the accusations that you horribly wronged them and their behavior is 100% justified.  This is how they see the world and viewing it through your eyes is something that doesn't come easy.

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yeeter
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« Reply #21 on: March 20, 2014, 02:26:59 PM »

And I dont really see it as 'coddling'. The concept I take to it is - I refuse to own her emotions.  She has to own and manage those, and Im not allowing them to be piled on me.  (she has never really learned to do this her whole life, always projects everything out on others)

Its more a 'tough love' concept in my mind than coddling.  Sure melt down.  Blow yourself up emotionally.  Throw a tantrum.  Whatever the flavor of the day is.  But those are YOUR issues and problems, I cant solve/fix it for you.  And some validation 'that it must be terrible to have to be dealing with all these emotions' (but again I cant fix it, sorry).

At first I felt I wasnt be thoughtful and loving and caring.  But in reality, simply being the dumping ground for her emotions isnt loving and caring to yourself nor her.
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« Reply #22 on: March 20, 2014, 08:27:45 PM »

Intellectually I suppose you are correct, but to avoid splitting hairs, it is coddling plain and simple.   It is OK to say, for some, that I am absolutely sick of it.
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« Reply #23 on: March 20, 2014, 08:30:48 PM »

Most of us stop becoming intellectual about the whole situation when we have simply had enough.  It is a disorder.      They cannot help it.   Nevertheless, there comes a point when many of us can or will no longer tolerate it - BPD behavior.   For those of us that get to that point,  it is CODDLING.
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« Reply #24 on: March 21, 2014, 02:47:43 PM »

Indeed, these are some of the choices we make.

One of my other favorite analogies:

A burning building

If we were healthy to begin with, we would have run away at the first sign of dysfunction and abuse. We would have seen that something big was wrong, and we would have politely excused ourselves from the relationship and not turned back.

Because we have our own mental health issues, instead, we run right into that burning building and hang around, complaining that its too hot, never considreing that we should leave the burning building or that we had control over entering in the first place. Instead, we want to stay inside and open an window to cool it off. We complain and blame the building for being on fire, and sometimes, to try to calm things down, we add little cups of gasoline of our own, just to keep it blazing! If only the building could understand that it isnt our fault it is on fire, then it might appreciate my presence and make it cooler in there.

Its just that crazy.

The relationships can become addictive, to our detriment.
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« Reply #25 on: March 22, 2014, 10:16:37 PM »

I could go on and on about behaviors of my UBPDH ( soon to be X). But, I can sum up 7 years with two scenario's... . Six weeks into our marriage, my father died very unexpectedly. On the way home from the funeral, about an hour and a half trip, he RAGED at me like a crazy person about how I spent too long talking to an ex boyfriend at my dads service! ( my dad was a teacher and ex BF was one if his students) So, instead if being allowed to grieve for dad I had to spent all my time and energy defending his relentless allegations!

Fast forward about six years... . My mom dies suddenly... . Day of her funeral he gets his feelings hurt, makes a suicide text/threat and won't answer my calls to check on him for 6 hours . Then when he does resurface ( he was fine, of course) he threatens to come over and break my door down and says I better not call the cops. So, once again he turns one of the worst days of my life into being about him.

So, after 7 years together... . I am done !     
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« Reply #26 on: March 23, 2014, 02:27:15 AM »

here i get up on my hobbyhorse again ... .

As you work on yourself and your own self believe, you will realize they can't make you feel like garbage, you can only make yourself feel like garbage for taking the words of an ill mind as true indications of your worth.

there's proleptic reasoning in your post, waverider: you've got people already fully absorbing that the mind of their partner is mentally ill, while they are still in a relationship, which by definition is an interpersonal experience. full detachment = no vulnerability = no relationship.

i.imgur.com/CWFTYoV.png

only a statue can really come to feel no effect at all from the opinions of others, whatever the mental condition. if nobody can make you feel like garbage, they can't either make you feel loved, or included, or appreciated, or indeed anything. is that the best life?

Correct you can't completely detach from either your partner or from people as a whole. You would be a dull cookie if you did. The important thing that sense confidence gives us is the strength to judge for ourselves the quality of others criticism of us. Even the insight to acknowledge when they actually have a point. We are not simply railroaded by others simply because they are forceful in the way they express their opinions (ie bullying).

Do we care what others think of us? Of course we do, thats part of human bonding, but we can't let that desire dictate who we believe we are.

We know "us" better than anyone else does, sometimes we just need a little "outside" advice to center ourselves, even if that advice is the devils advocate.

We are in charge of us, everyone else is just an adviser. Part of our job of being in charge is to evaluate the quality of the advise before taking it on board. To do that we need the confidence to believe we are up to the job of being in charge. Self doubt will lead us to give too much weight to unsound advise.
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