What is wrong with ME.. not my BPD wife

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

hurthusband,

reading your posts and comments makes me want to point you to the following message board: PERSPECTIVES: Conflict dynamics / Karpman Triangle

it really helped me take responsibility for my own happiness

hang in there...  

[ziniztar]

hurthusband,

reading your posts and comments makes me want to point you to the following message board: PERSPECTIVES: Conflict dynamics / Karpman Triangle

it really helped me take responsibility for my own happiness

hang in there...  

[hurthusband]

Yea, I look at the triangle and certainly see it.

It just feels like at times we are multiple roles at the same time.

For instance, my wife is basically the persecutor to me AND the victim in the same argument.  With most everyone else in her life she is the rescuer though.

My default is certainly the rescuer.  Outwardly I am this role basically at all times.  Inside and not mentioned, I feel like the victim, but I cannot ask for help or receive help as that goes against my default role.  In fact, I feel that maybe I am actually the victim.  I just cannot accept that role. 

None of the roles are healthy, so how do you remove yourself from it all and handle it

Today I am certainly feeling victim .  I do not want to trouble anyone to save me, but Past month has been an onslaught of bills from medical. Completely drowning me on top of my wife complete dysregulation, and a family business which is hard to deal with when your boss is a parent who basically has no knowledge of computers and so has no clue what all you are in fact doing for them.

Tired of it all right now... I am tired of the drama of my wife and family... honestly I feel even the kids while they love me, have total disregard for me or willing to do anything to help.  Everything is about wanting more (they have computers, xbox1, ps4, ipads, etc) and completely destroying and breaking everything in the house then leaving it at the ages of 12 and 14.  A wife who is completely disheveled trying to figure what to do with her life and looking at me like I have the answers.  Meanwhile I am the sole money maker.  None of them properly take care of their teeth which explains $4k in dental work in past week alone for them.  $40k in medical bills for them all that have arrived so far for past 14 months. 

Work is an equal disaster as completely non appreciated and threatened

I just need a break... the ship is sinking.  Financially, emotionally, mentally, everything is falling apart and the only person who can keep the ship afloat is myself

[momtara]

I know that feeling.   No one has ever taken care of me.

"honestly I feel even the kids while they love me, have total disregard for me or willing to do anything to help."

Unfortunately, with a 12 and 14 year old, you can't really count on them.  They have little control of their lives and they just want to get along with people in school and not be miserable.  They can't look out for you, even if they care.  Standing up to their mom is harder for them than for you, and it's pretty hard for you.  My mom was nuts and my dad is rational and I still gave in to my mom a lot because it was just easier.  I kind of resented when my dad would try to drag me into their arguments.  Occasionally I would take his side when she was obviously lying about something, but kids don't want to be dragged in.  That doesn't mean they don't love you or care about you.

You deserve something for you.  A backrub.  A pat on the back.  The commenter up there who gets to do things on his own, that's a godsend. 

Just know that there are people here who understand and care!

Hurthusband, you are a GOOD person and a hard worker.  And even a good writer.  Hang in there. 

[waverider]

If you wife acts like she doesn't respect to your rights, and you don't act like you respect your rights, the kids will just follow suit, that is the role model they are following. This does not just affect how they are with you but probably set up a pattern as to how they will have relationships with others.

It really does come down to boundaries and a dose of tough love for everyone, including yourself. This may require a personality change, difficult though that may be. No one else is going to do it for you.

Stepping out of the triangle also means stepping out of the victim role.

[hurthusband]

I should point out that I do not want the kids to be a source of comfort or take care of me.  I feel that asking or relying on them for emotional support will lead them to learn a behavior of being a *fixer* role later in life which I do not want them to follow suit with me on

The frustrating part with them is such things as just getting them to brush their teeth, not leave food in their rooms or on the couch, or at least when they spill something on the couch trying to clean it up.  Do their homework... . not just sign up for things at school or elsewhere without asking...

I mean I understand kids at that age have no concept for money, but they have the ps4, the xbox 1, ipads, iphones, computers, tvs... etc... I know they are kids and will still be ungrateful and complain...

but not turning in homework?  I mean at least put wrong answers and turn it in.

spilling red gatorade on the couch?  at least soak it up

signing up for football without asking if its ok?  signing up for AP science when you are failing normal science?  volunteering me to take you to something and paying for the trip when you have not talked to me or know if I even work?

... . the biggest though... .   I have one that I just spent $800 in testing to find out that his whole problem is he is overly constipated... I been harping on him to eat right daily forever and that this would happen.  His real father does not care and when he goes over there is horrible.  So what happens... . he goes to his fathers and leaves the medicine he is supposed to take.  EVERY single dose of his medicine morning and night I have to get on him about and argue taking... ITS TO GET HIM WELL!  its just a pill and water!  but he can certainly go out there and destroy my router trying to get his video games set up

the other one... always harping on his to brush his teeth... every year its a new dental procedure... Ive spent $10k on medicine so far this year on crap that is preventable cause nobody will do their own responsibilities.  that is with insurance, and supposedly what qualifies as top teir according to our government.

I am not asking my kids to do anything for me, I am not asking them to even do a chore.  I am not asking my wife to do anything really.  I will carry them all up "the mountain" on my back.  I will give them all our provisions and food and take nothing while we do it.  The ONLY thing I ask is that while I pull them up the mountain is that they do not pelt me with rocks, throw anchors to slow me down, and spray oil as I try to grip the mountain...

but they are literally sabotaging my efforts to do what is nearly impossible...   Wife is worse because she is ungrateful for it

[Ulysses]

Wow, I can hear your frustration and agaony.  You are in a really painful situation.  I've been there (still am) and it's hard.  The health, cleanliness, and dental issues are things I am facing too.  I take my S10 to the dentist and am told by the dentist I must floss and brush his teeth at least once a day.  This since he was little.  I explain to my unofficially dNPD spouse that we must do this, and he ends up yelling at me in front of our son that he won't because our son is too old and it's ridiculous and demeaning.  Spouse also took our son out of therapy against the wishes of the therapist.  Spouse doesn't help teach children to clean up, e.g. even 5 minutes/night before they go to bed.  Took us into debt buying more and more for our son, and ignored me when I would say, gee, I think he has enough of xyz toy, or spouse told me, well he wants more and I like to collect things so I understand how he feels (our son was 3 at the time). 

After watching my husband and his mother, I think, and I'm not an expert, that there are parents who don't want to empower their children to take care of themselves, so that the parent can rescue the child, as well as at times condemn them for not being good enough.  It's really sick.  And it's also about control.  If the child can't function, they will have to come back to the parent for help, even as an adult, and the parent can control the adult child's life.  And then use the help they offer as one means to guilt them into being/feeling indebted to the parent. 

What has helped me is to work as hard as I can to not react to provocations.  It's really hard sometimes.  I've also started being able to speak more freely about emotions with my kids (10 and 5).  I talk to them about ownership of emotions and try to set an example.  When I mess up I talk to them about it if appropriate.  My daughter hears me cry.  I tell my kids what I'm doing to take care of myself (e.g. help from a therapist - "idea guy".  I've also mentally said forget their messy rooms right now, I can only do so much.  I try to be happy when I clean to set an example.  But I'm home with them so it's different for you, since you work.  Can you make lists and first entice them with money or other rewards?  Or take away electronics and they earn them back?  If not, maybe just start with not reacting, and finding a therapist to react with who will help you.  And take 5 minutes each evening to clean up, and invited them to join you.  Stay positive when you do it so you set an example that self-care is positive.  Maybe even act like you don't care if they don't join you in cleaning up.

You don't feel appreciated by your family and that is hard.  My spouse swings from telling me what a great parent I am to I'm too controlling.  So I've learned to just not react and do what I think is best.  It's hard though when H has affairs and threatens to leave and take the kids half the time.  As hard as it is to see, try and focus on you and how you want to be.

[waverider]

hurthusband  sounds like you have a whole lot of learned behavior going on there copied from your wife at best, and at worst case continuation of the disorder gene.

You are right teenagers can often get wrapped up in their own world and are not always thoughtful. The difference is most do at least realise they are wrong, they are simply just not mindful in the moment. The issue you have is a couldn't careless its not their problem attitude. Seeing their mum acting this way is just validating it as ok.

Being willing to carry them on your back, is only going to reinforce this.

I am not asking my kids to do anything for me, I am not asking them to even do a chore.  I am not asking my wife to do anything really.

Why not?

I will give them all our provisions and food and take nothing while we do it.

They are Ok with that so why would they change?

The ONLY thing I ask is that while I pull them up the mountain is that they do not pelt me with rocks, throw anchors to slow me down, and spray oil as I try to grip the mountain.

Requests and demand have no effect when dealing with needy people. Neediness is a Black Hole and will suck it all in and still want more, leaving you with nothing but resentment. There is no sating neediness by giving.

BOUNDARY: I will not pull people up the mountain while they are pelting rocks at me, throwing anchors and spraying oil.

Ask yourself, are you driven by a need to control or model these people in your image, and thereby creating rebellion or stubbornness as a backlash?

It is not what you give that is important to a needy person. It is the "process' of obtaining things or attention that is important to them.  It is one way, and continuouse.

You may need to introduce the concept of 'No", ":)o without", and "Suffer the consquences". It will go against the grain of what you believe is the right thing.

[momtara]

Unfortunately, after HH has been letting them get away with this for so long, suddenly changing that rule will only make them resentful.  And I don't think HH wants lifelong resentment when it isn't necessary.  Changing things now still won't change the situation as a whole.  I think he should set boundaries too, but I don't know about ripping up all the things he let go on in the past. 

[waverider]

Unfortunately, after HH has been letting them get away with this for so long, suddenly changing that rule will only make them resentful.  And I don't think HH wants lifelong resentment when it isn't necessary.  Changing things now still won't change the situation as a whole.  I think he should set boundaries too, but I don't know about ripping up all the things he let go on in the past. 

When the problem is attitude you can't be inconsistent and unbalanced in your approach to changes. Otherwise you get bogged down in justifying why this is allowed and something else is not.

HH is heading down the path of lifelong resentment in his own head if he does not regain control. You can only address your own resentment no one elses.

[yeeter]

Being willing to carry them on your back, is only going to reinforce this.

A wise soul here once developed this mantra, which I really liked:

"I refuse to care more about this than you do"

This was in response to a child that wasnt taking responsibility for their own behaviors/actions/consequences.  Once she stopped doing it all for them, they then adjusted and picked up more of it themselves.

And some of it they did not do, and she had to learn to step back and let them reap the consequences of what they sowed.

So when you start bailing everyone out, as yourself - are you caring more about it than they are?

(adult children its easier to draw these lines, but even with younger children they have to learn what it takes to get to where they want - whether its video games or homework)

[hurthusband]

Unfortunately, after HH has been letting them get away with this for so long, suddenly changing that rule will only make them resentful.  And I don't think HH wants lifelong resentment when it isn't necessary.  Changing things now still won't change the situation as a whole.  I think he should set boundaries too, but I don't know about ripping up all the things he let go on in the past. 

Yes, I do feel that I have let the behavior gone on so long that I have set this up.  It is a situation that changing now would just break everything and blow up in my face in a way that I am just not emotionally or mentally able to handle at this point.  I suppose an analogy is that an avalanche has fallen on me.  I am disoriented, disorganized, and my arm is trapped under a boulder.  I could cut my arm off and get loose, but I am still not all there.  I do not know if I can handle doing that.  Maybe its time to do it sooner than later, but cutting my arm off unpreped might kill me too...

HH is heading down the path of lifelong resentment in his own head if he does not regain control. You can only address your own resentment no one elses.

good point... I am certainly having some resentment of a wasted life

It is quite hard to get control on the kids.  I am not blood, so there is a bit of that grey area over walking across their real father's, mother's, or grandparent's rules.

For instance...

the oldest does have his father in his life.  He sees his father every Thursday night, and every other weekend from Thursday through Sunday.  The problem is when he goes to his father's, his father basically lets a total free for all.  He makes no effort to make him take his medication, brush his teeth, eat proper, sleep proper, do his homework, or anything at all.  In fact, he hangs out with his stepbrother who is a bit of a messed up kid.  2 years ago I found a video his stepbrother made where he played a torturer, torturing other kids.  I also have seen this kid bully handicapped kids (handicapped knocked his block off which served him right), and messes with animals.  So what do you do when he has been there for 4 days or in summer a month and comes back. 

I certainly do not feel it is right to degrade his father in front of him, but I really want to say "I know you can do that at your fathers, but your father is a bad parent.  He has a responsibility to hold you to your obligation, teach you, and reinforce good behaviors". 

The other's father is in prison and son has never known him so I have some more leeway on him, BUT...

there is their grandparents who are always meddling.  Picking them up for Boy Scouts which is a good help, but if they are failing a class, I do not think they should do Boy Scouts.  I will take away their electronics at home, but then their grandparents take them over there and let them play on the computer... .

I do not blame the kids to a degree.  Its adults undercutting everything I am trying to achieve.

I do punish the kids, I do try and incentivize things.  I explain that I do not want to be a bad guy, I do not like to punish them or want to take away things.  I want to see them happy, but that as a parent, I have to *teach* or essentially partake in behavior conditioning to act right.

The whole situation is just a network of morons.  My wife had no chance with parents like hers.  Its frustrating

[momtara]

Well, I'm not sure your wife supports you in these things, either.  It might help with the kids if she did.

I don't think it's worth it for you to suddenly enforce boundaries you haven't enforced in years.  Kids are kids.  THey have little control in their lives and they just want to be happy.  They don't have time to worry about your own life and whether your wife treats you fairly.  I know you'd like them to be grateful for all you have done raising them and sticking around, and someday they will be, and deep down they probably are, but they just can't be the ones to enforce anything. 

I think in terms of boundaries, you have to focus on setting boundaries with *new* things that happen.  And maybe subtle ones for old stuff, but definitely it probably isn't a good idea to suddenly change everything.

[waverider]

Setting boundaries is an evolution. It is too confronting to everyone including yourself to suddenly just draw a big list of everything that gets under your skin. So you have to start with the very basic core issues and work from there. You definitely dont get dragged into commenting on what they may, or may not, be doing at their fathers. Otherwise you set yourself up as opposition and they will become defensive. You can't control this anyway

A core issue would be simply that you will not be spoken to with disrespect, over anything. Your action would be simply to stop doing, helping, providing whatever until the attitude changes. Dont make initial boundaries issue specific. eg dont make a boundary specifically about picking up a plate, otherwise you you will end up with hundreds of minor boundaries and it will just become chaos.

Kids are adaptable, but they wont adapt if it feels hopeless.

You dont have to cut your arm off to get out under that boulder, you have tools to chip away the rock, you just have to learn to use them effectively, and it will take time.

Making some progress will make you feel far better about yourself. If you demand AND give respect, kids will see the benefits of this to them. Rebellion and boundary pushing is what teenage years are all about. If there are no boundaries to push against they have no point of reference and so become lost.

Doing these things will help you in your life regardless of what happens in this RS. Otherwise you may very well find yourself in this situation again. You need to fix YOU and your RS management skills for whatever the future holds

Well, I'm not sure your wife supports you in these things, either.  It might help with the kids if she did.

She has a disorder and this is a consequence of this disorder and you won't be able to change this. You will disable yourself by hoping otherwise.

[hurthusband]

Yea... I think that is the main heart of this all is boundaries.

I suppose I come to these forums not so much because "how do i fix my wife or what do I do to handle her"

It is more that there is something wrong with myself.  It is not destructive to others as say my wife's is, but I obviously have some issue with boundaries and taking care of myself.  These are issues that probably would not be as noticeable if I had a different wife, but would still be there.  They will hinder me in all relationships both professionally and personally.

I understand I cannot *fix* others and you can never truly change whats around you, even though we would love to, but I do have control over myself... . the thing is trying to fix myself is truly hard.  Probably as hard as it is to fix her.  It is just that my issue is something you can go through life with and live a pretty good life still, UNLESS you are with a BPD in which case it destroys you

[momtara]

Yes, the last sentence is true.  Of cousre, some would say we attract people or are attracted to people like our parents.  So maybe some of us codependent types are likely to end up with BPDs.

[waverider]

You are not unique, most people have weaknesses, but can get through life ok without being tested on them. pwBPD are hard task masters, and most people would fail. Learning to cope with BPD results in skills that can take you to above average people management skills, because we have to.

It is hard, and it is probably a task never fully accomplished, but knowing the nature of the issue reduces a large component of the hopelessness.

Making your life not dependent on others is a worthy goal. Normally we shirk this level of responsibility for ourselves. pwBPD will destroy you if you allow yourself to become codependent on them.

Think about all these tools and skills as something you are doing to improve you, not just to survive, and it reduces a lot of the resentment. Practice them with everybody you deal with.

[hurthusband]

The hard part is I make a plan, I say how I will deal with things.  I will use the tools, I will more importantly, not let her get to me and make me crazy... but like Mike Tyson once said

"Everyone has a plan until they get punched"

as soon as I get punched and beratted and belittled, the horrible feeling just rush on and because its spur of moment battle panic sets it.  I just am not sure how to stop it

[momtara]

Well, of course.  You are in a difficult position.  All of this is easier said and done.  You live with your wife every day, your decisions and your life are tied to her.  And it is VERY difficult to stand up to people with BPD.  It feels nicer to just give in.  I understand completely.  

Ultimately, it is very hard to live like this.  Set all the boundaries you want, but if they don't really have an impact on her behavior, and her therapist can't help you both, you're just going to keep suffering in one way or another.  Maybe suffering in the marriage is better than leaving and suffering.  

Perhaps you just have to suffer in the marriage until somehow, something comes to a head.  At least you'll know it wasn't your fault and you tried your best.

Seems like besides you, the sanest adult around his her therapist.  I guess he just can't change anything about her therapy or find some way to get her to change?

You know what?  Here's a thought.  What about her T makes a rule that both you and her do something separate one day a week, and you get X hours to do yours?  This will give you a time when you can be yourself, don't have to worry about doing the wrong thing in front of her, etc.  

Maybe he can also tell her that it's important that she not call you at work more than X times.

Of course, all of this means you'd have to talk to the T and convince him/her and give him/her these ideas.  I think maybe if he understands that your wife is pushing you away, and you're good for her, he may recommend that both of you have a bit of time to yourselves each week.  Just think, you could breathe!  And it would be coming from the therapist.  He could ask her if it's ok to call you, or he could ask her to bring you with her and deliver this news.

Maybe this will prevent some kind of explosion in the pressure cooker that's your home.

There's a woman who deals with verbal abuse, patricia evans, who has a book with a list of a contract that verbal abusers have to sign, listing all these phrases they should stop saying and things they should stop doing.  Perhaps unrealistic in many cases, but maybe if you can isolate 4-5 things that would improve your marriage, realistic tings (like, you get 4 hours a weekend when you get leisure time), or one date night a week with no accusations allowed, perhaps that may help.  Of course, these are couples counseling kind of things, not an individual T thing, but if you get to talk to him, maybe he can focus on some goals for her.  Maybe even things not to do - no accusations, no using certain phrases. 

[waverider]

You know what?  Here's a thought.  What about her T makes a rule that both you and her do something separate one day a week, and you get X hours to do yours?  This will give you a time when you can be yourself, don't have to worry about doing the wrong thing in front of her, etc.  

Maybe he can also tell her that it's important that she not call you at work more than X times.

This is important as it gives you time to recharge. Though it will take boundaries on your part to make it happen.  A T can only suggest it, but can't make it happen without you enforcing it.

Enforcing "my time" was one of the hardest fought boundaries of mine. Now it has been achieved it is one of my greatest rewards, couldn't do without it. The constant "dripping tap" of BPD neediness made all other appropriate responses difficult to maintain.

[hurthusband]

Past 3 weeks since she got back from the nightmare trip, things have as a whole been better.  I have been given some more time for myself.  There has been good days.  At same time, she has stopped going to her therapist, and stopped taking as much of her amphetamines.  She is still VERY depressed over her job prospects and what to do with her life.  We also have been a sickly household past few months which has exacerbated financial stressed with several thousand in medical bills.  About once a week there is a complete meltdown, that is up to the point of divorce, but mostly it has been better...

She seems to recognize that while she does not like a 9 to 5 regimented job (she is an artist), that routine is needed to help her.  Sleep problems still worry me though.  She goes from only able to sleep to 2 hours to a weird night like last night

Last night she went to bed about 15 minutes before me.  She was actually asleep when I came to bed which never happens.  She claims she slept great, but she was snoring VERY loud like she had problems breathing and literally thrashing about in her sleep alot.  Not from nightmare, but like she was having trouble breathing.  Arms flailing to the point that I was staying away to make sure she was safe, and to make sure I didnt get knocked in head.  Very strange.  She said she slept great though...

No telling what today has in store though

[momtara]

I'm glad things have improved since the trip.

Hope the day goes better. 

Hang in there.