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Author Topic: What To Say When The Kid Doesn't Want To Spend Time With CP  (Read 391 times)
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« on: April 18, 2014, 07:23:49 PM »

Mine's been ok with the kids. Last week, however, DS4 told his mom that he wanted to call me in the middle of the day, so they did. Another time, I had seen them around 4:30PM, so I told her that I wouldn't do the nightly call (7-9). Around 9, they called me because our son asked her to. They have yet to ask to call her, though I've let go of my anger over her object constancy issues, and think it's ok if she calls on a weekend in the middle of the day. I'll pick up if we're available. She's an ok parent, not a horror story like many I see here. I can see the emotional distance from the kids, of course. She's focused on her love object (which keeps her happy for now, to my benefit: no fighting over custody or child support yet, she's about to be served by mail, and I told her yesterday. She is ready.)

Today was technically her day. I had the day off, however, so I asked if it was ok to go hang with the kids. She said to have them back to her mom's (our babysitter) by 4PM. Then said if I wanted to bring them later let me know. I had a T appointment, so I dropped them off, then tried to go back to take them to Good Friday noon service. My battery suddenly acted up, so I got a jump start from a nice lady in the parking lot, then came back and said I'd just hang out with them for an hour or so. We had lunch, I had both of them sprawled over me (not fighting each other for daddy space for once), but I had to go to the dealership to get my battery installed and alternator checked just in case it wasn't the battery. Then to work for a few hours in the evening.

Our son didn't like me leaving. He clung to me and said, "I don't want you to go to work!" I'm sorry, son, but daddy has to, I will see you Sunday morning when mommy brings you to church. Mommy will come by and pick you up in a few hours and you can hang with mommy tonight and tomorrow. "I don't want you to go, I don't want to hang out with mommy! I want to hang out with you!" Here I invalidated him and said, don't say that, buddy, mommy loves you and so do I I gave him a big hug and kiss goodbye and rushed out the door. After I got to the car, I realize I had invalidated his feelings, but I've been thinking for a few hours how I could have said it better.

The first two months of joint custody have been ok, but the kids' attachment to me in increasing. I've only spent perhaps 5-10% more time with them so far. I know she loves them, and is good with them when she is good, but perhaps it's that I'm the more emotionally available parent? yesterday at DS4's soccer practice, I was the one running around and entertaining DD2, kicking the ball around with her outside of the big kid indoor field (cage). Our daughter did go up to and hug her mom for a bit, but I walked down the hall for a minute to call my boss back and she started crying and following me, even though her mom was there, and she was watching her brother play soccer. I came back after a few minutes and DD clung to me for a while and I hugged her tight and soothed her. The one other mother there said, "she just wanted a hug from dad!" If only they knew.

I've seen this pattern for a while, perhaps not noticing it when we were together. uBPDx has a subtle, and sometimes not so subtle, social anxiety, worried about what others think of her. Hence she sat there most of the time on the bench not wanting to play with her daughter. When we first walked in---uBPDx had brought the kids last week for the first practice--- she had mentioned the coach was a nice young lady, and as we walked up, she said that she didn't know her name because she hadn't introduced herself. Our son ran into the cage (about the size of a large basketball court), so I came in after him and of course walked right up to the nice young lady and introduced myself. uBPDx hung back, so I motioned and told the coach the kids' mom's name. Twomonths ago at DS4's birthday, I was the one playing with the kids in the jumper and running around with them while their mom, while interacting with them, mostly sat and talked to some friends and relatives. I'm almost 11 years older than her, in my 40s, a big kid  Smiling (click to insert in post)

It's odd to me, because uBPDx is so good at the operational aspects of life for the most part (going and signing our son up for the class, passing on clear instructions to me for when I bring him), but when it comes to the parts of life where one should just be one's self? Well, she is herself, and the BPD traits peek through.
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« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2014, 04:49:06 PM »

Clingyness goes both ways, switching suddenly in the D4, but with the S11 I get consistent gentle preference to be with me, but calmly cooperative.

I'd leave it up to custody orders.  If reasons are given, investigate thoroughly, without reasons or evidence they are just feelings. I am calmly stern regarding handoffs, your approach seems fine to me.  I won't pay much attention to a child's preference statements, they can be pandering or genuine, in the interest of not playing their minds, I am robotically predictable during that time.

You share a church with BPD?  I tried that, things went bad quick.  The matter was more stressful than life, now the matter is more enjoyable and meaningful since we parted churches.  Something to think about.  I reasoned, eventually she/I will remarry, with rocky conduct at her end. While that is not now, I see that going to different churches early was the right matter, I digress... .
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« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2014, 05:15:37 PM »

Clingyness goes both ways, switching suddenly in the D4, but with the S11 I get consistent gentle preference to be with me, but calmly cooperative.

I'd leave it up to custody orders.  If reasons are given, investigate thoroughly, without reasons or evidence they are just feelings. I am calmly stern regarding handoffs, your approach seems fine to me.  I won't pay much attention to a child's preference statements, they can be pandering or genuine, in the interest of not playing their minds, I am robotically predictable during that time.

Yes. I talked to him later on the phone and he was fine. I think it was just a moment. I'll keep an eye on it and watch how I say things in the future.

Excerpt
You share a church with BPD?  I tried that, things went bad quick.  The matter was more stressful than life, now the matter is more enjoyable and meaningful since we parted churches.  Something to think about.  I reasoned, eventually she/I will remarry, with rocky conduct at her end. While that is not now, I see that going to different churches early was the right matter, I digress... .

I went there first with the kids for 5 months before she was able to leave our home. She started showing up with the kids on her weekends, something I didn't think she would follow through on, and didn't even ask her to do. She did that the first week she moved out. In fact, I subtly discouraged it, because she wanted me to take them even for a few hours on her Sundays. I said, "no one splits weekends. If you want to take them on you weekends, that's fine. If you want to do anything else with them, that's fine, too. It's not going to kill them to miss church/Sunday school every other week." I've already made friends there, and know several people I talk to each week. uBPDx, due to her social anxiety, has a hard time making friends. Not so deep down, she doesn't trust people either (except for honey-lipped, man-boy narcs, apparently). I don't think she'll ever be that "involved" there, even if she keeps going most every other Sunday. It was still odd to see her take communion last weekend. Praying, sincere. Hearing, but not really hearing, if you know what I mean. I get it, but I also don't.

A few things with this: as a friend of mine said who's known her for a few years, "she's a seeker." The second is that she is sincere in that she sees the socialization for the kids is good. The third is that being that BPD is an attachment disorder, she wants to see me more often than I want to see her. Due to the hand offs being at her mom's house (nothing in the orders about that, it's just convenient), I could go weeks without seeing her. That would be fine with me, actually. A couple of times after church, she's asked me to go out with them for breakfast or lunch. I did it once when she was only three weeks out to see if I could stand it. I barely did (it was nothing she was doing or saying, it was my emotions). I've declined after that. She is finally getting it. The last thing is that her boy toy, the kid she cheated on me with and is with now in full blown idealization phase, seems hyper religious, going around quoting bible verses (I once pointed out to her that Satan did too, , that means nothing). After years of being apathetic about the church (she was raised Catholic, but rejected it), now she is seemingly involved in this evangelical thing (we're non denominational, evangelical). So in a way, I think this is some weird mirroring going on. I think the guy is a complete fake and is manipulating her, but that's not my business anymore, though at some point this will affect the kids. Can't fight the future, only plan for it.

I thought about switching, but the common thing is the kids. She has yet to show up on one of my weekends with them there. That tells me a few things. She knows I don't like to spend time with her, though I am getting better. It is indeed some kind of mirroring, since if she were sincere, she would show up. It's a medium sized church. I have repeatedly told her that I would never limit her access to the kids (I won't do faux family outings like she wanted to do with me in the beginning, which I think is sick and dysfunctional at this point... . in the future, probably I would be ok with something like that occasionally). All in all, she's walking on eggshells around me now. I have a few theories why, but it's oddly unsettling to have our roles reversed after over 5 years of me WoE.
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« Reply #3 on: April 19, 2014, 07:48:09 PM »

Wow, your case is a bit like mine, imagine that, interesting reading.  For entertainment value take a peek at Acts 16:17.  The issue is WE marry these types, and we don't get the nice exorcism that was recorded in scripture    BPD is hypocrisy, and is inconsistent with scripture; in my many musings whether BPD is a sin or biological, I conclude both are true.  In our relationship I had a calm, gentle biblically loaded mind. A lot more fruit bearer than fruit inspector.  She had passion and vigor with no knowledge, no genuineness of logic or faith to support her often brittle views. It was a bear, and I was forbidden from reading (fear I'd get more eloquent in my arguments).  Ahh regimes end, God continues.  Ignorance and judgmentalism make bad companions.

On a more serious note. I think that having a BPDx in the group may become a place for distortion campaigns, etc.  Mine got heavy into that at the older smaller (us=together) church.  At my new church (measures taken to make sure it is not discovered by her or disclosed my kids), it is a congregation of 450, middle age, bright.  Doctrinally similar, but when I peer into the periscope called future, I can see finding a good wife here easy, got religion squared away, next... .   Basically one can observe from afar for a while and ID those flakes and those candidates from an ideal position in a large church. I'm definitely not a Cassanova there, but keep the mind open.  Obviously it is working OK for you, and if your congr. is over 300 then maybe taking different seats would be OK, but I live in the present and look intensely into the future.  How exactly do churches forbid an ex from attending your wedding when the time comes, and she is a regular there? How about that raise your hand if there is an objection?  The future is only far away until it hits us.

Excerpt
she wants to see me more often than I want to see her.

  Mine was like that, then one day filed for a not yet lawful divorce suddenly. I was happier unleashed than leashed.  Hope you get similar freedom.

Excerpt
  I think the guy is a complete fake and is manipulating her,

  I have found that in more cultic, fundamentalist settings this is prevalent. In more moderate, literate religious settings this becomes less common. I know a few firebrand men who claim God up one side and down the other, and are abusers.  Thankfully in my current setting people are more legit.  At least if the guy is a jerk he is reaping what he sows.  Him getting a BPD'er interested is not difficult, should not require manipulation, getting rid of one might 

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« Reply #4 on: April 19, 2014, 08:29:49 PM »

Wow, your case is a bit like mine, imagine that, interesting reading.  For entertainment value take a peek at Acts 16:17.  The issue is WE marry these types, and we don't get the nice exorcism that was recorded in scripture    BPD is hypocrisy, and is inconsistent with scripture; in my many musings whether BPD is a sin or biological, I conclude both are true.  In our relationship I had a calm, gentle biblically loaded mind. A lot more fruit bearer than fruit inspector.  She had passion and vigor with no knowledge, no genuineness of logic or faith to support her often brittle views. It was a bear, and I was forbidden from reading (fear I'd get more eloquent in my arguments).  Ahh regimes end, God continues.  Ignorance and judgmentalism make bad companions.

First, I admit to never marrying her. It was a permanent engagement due to her pathological fear of marriage (commitment) due to witnessing the abuse wrought upon her mom when she was younger. I made the mistake of unequally yoking myself, selling out my principles, and being with her because of my desire to have a family (in a way, she did this on the flip side). In a way, I am spiritually leading my family now, apart from her, and she is along for the ride, so to speak. I accept that this is the inevitable outcome, and due to our beautiful kids, perhaps this is the best of all possible worlds given her, and given me. I won't make this mistake again. My Christian T (one referred to us by uBPDx's counselor) said, "find a woman who is humble before God." That is humbling.

Excerpt
On a more serious note. I think that having a BPDx in the group may become a place for distortion campaigns, etc.  Mine got heavy into that at the older smaller (us=together) church.  At my new church (measures taken to make sure it is not discovered by her or disclosed my kids), it is a congregation of 450, middle age, bright.  :)octrinally similar, but when I peer into the periscope called future, I can see finding a good wife here easy, got religion squared away, next... .  Basically one can observe from afar for a while and ID those flakes and those candidates from an ideal position in a large church. I'm definitely not a Cassanova there, but keep the mind open.  Obviously it is working OK for you, and if your congr. is over 300 then maybe taking different seats would be OK, but I live in the present and look intensely into the future.  How exactly do churches forbid an ex from attending your wedding when the time comes, and she is a regular there? How about that raise your hand if there is an objection?  The future is only far away until it hits us.

The church is probably 400-600. Possibly more. I'll take a quick estimate the next week (Easter will have more filling the pews). It's very involved in the community, family-centric, with a K-8 school as well. A lot of children there. I like that. And the older children are pretty respectful to adults and to my children. I like that. I'm not changing.

She showed up on her weekend two weeks ago to pick up the kids (she had a work function, and I volunteered to watch them for a few hours, take them to church). She didn't approach me (kids were in SS), as she usually would with the kids, but texted. I met her outside of the sanctuary and took her to show her DD2 finally was able to stay in her 2 year olds' class without me (it's been hard... . her object constancy issues at that age). We went back to finish the service and I went in one section, she sat at the opposite side. I think she gets it. Still odd to see her taking communion (I warned her against this once long ago, but having gone through Catholic confirmation, she thinks it is ok. Don't want to get this totally off track, but I think you know what I mean). She was dabbling in Buddhism for the past year.

Still, like you, finding a mature woman is in the back of my mind. Not to say churches are all good, as the letters to the churches in the NT are full of the apostles chastising bad behaviors of congregants, but overall, it's a better fit. I met my Ex volunteering for at risk youth. My heart was in the right place, until I realized that it attracts people with   PD traits. And I obviously had some as well, to go down the path I did despite so many red flags being waved in my face from week 1.


Excerpt
 I think the guy is a complete fake and is manipulating her,

 
Excerpt
I have found that in more cultic, fundamentalist settings this is prevalent. In more moderate, literate religious settings this becomes less common. I know a few firebrand men who claim God up one side and down the other, and are abusers.  Thankfully in my current setting people are more legit.  At least if the guy is a jerk he is reaping what he sows.  Him getting a BPD'er interested is not difficult, should not require manipulation, getting rid of one might  

I don't think he even counts himself a believer. If I ever have to meet him, I will ask him point blank, in front of witnesses. It would probably be the last thing he would expect, but I am confidant in myself enough to do this. I highly doubt it, based upon the religious things people tell me he posts. The Gospel message seems to be lacking. He actually looks like a BPD Casanova type from what I could tell, and what she told me about him long ago. Picked her up because he was a bouncer at a local gay club? She told me long ago that straight guys have infiltrated these clubs, because it;s a good place to pick up women. I made the mistake of letting her go out to support her gay cousins and have fun now and then. I didn't judge them or her (how could I?). One of many mistakes I made... . but here we are and it is what it is. It bothers me that this young guy is around my kids, but I count myself very strong, and my kids, I see, have more of me in them than their mom. I'm focused like a laser on them now (though not to the point of being a helicopter parent, I mean emotionally).
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« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2014, 08:22:35 PM »

After I got to the car, I realize I had invalidated his feelings, but I've been thinking for a few hours how I could have said it better.

You can always have a do-over.

"When you told me you didn't want me to go, I said xyz. I thought about it when I left, and it made me feel like I let you down. You didn't want me to go, and if I could do it over, I would've done abc."

Something like that. I had to do this a lot. Actually, I still do it a lot, tho my son is hitting the teens and he's turtling up a bit so there are fewer opportunities to discuss this kind of thing. Mostly, I'm grateful to hear anything after him being such an open, available kid for the first decade of his life. 

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« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2014, 08:32:25 PM »

After I got to the car, I realize I had invalidated his feelings, but I've been thinking for a few hours how I could have said it better.

You can always have a do-over.

"When you told me you didn't want me to go, I said xyz. I thought about it when I left, and it made me feel like I let you down. You didn't want me to go, and if I could do it over, I would've done abc."

Something like that. I had to do this a lot. Actually, I still do it a lot, tho my son is hitting the teens and he's turtling up a bit so there are fewer opportunities to discuss this kind of thing. Mostly, I'm grateful to hear anything after him being such an open, available kid for the first decade of his life.  

Thanks, L&L. That makes sense. I think it was just "of the moment." I think the kids are slightly more bonded to me, but I don't alienate, since I realizes that hurts the kids.

That incident was Friday. Today, I get the evening call from their mom. She asked me if our son said that, all worried. I said that yes, he did say that, and I explained the circumstances. She was worried why he would say that. I told her I thought that it was just a momentary thing and that I handled it slightly wrong, but to not be worried about it. Though her mom doesn't speak English, uBPDx's brothers were there and related what he said to their mom. It must have been a conversation today, because she said her mom made a big deal out of it. I calmed uBPDx down (she wasn't really upset, just worried). She asked me to tell her if the kids say stuff like that.

I didn't mention, of course, that her family is still upset with her, to say the least, and that of course they are worried for the kids, adding to the fact that their mom is a c/d worrier anyway. Her narc traits blind her to a lot of things, as she is so sure she has done and is doing the right thing.

My question here for you, or anyone, is if I am obligated to tell her something like that? My take on it is that she has undertaken a juvenile relationship with young, narcissistic "kid" and it irks me that she gave him access to our children right away (he was saying how much he wanted to meet our son back in August, she told me, only two weeks after she told me we were "done.". I said  Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post), and she kind of considered it, but obviously fell in love with the guy so it made no difference. I don't query the kids about what happens there. When he mentions the guy, which has been infrequent, I just nod and go "ok" and listen. I think I have a right as their father to listen for anything odd and aren't under obligation to tell her, though I can't say that I wouldn't ever not tell her something I found odd. She's attached as a pwBPD does, and mature judgement has kind of flown out the window.
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« Reply #7 on: April 23, 2014, 08:44:16 AM »

My question here for you, or anyone, is if I am obligated to tell her something like that? My take on it is that she has undertaken a juvenile relationship with young, narcissistic "kid" and it irks me that she gave him access to our children right away (he was saying how much he wanted to meet our son back in August, she told me, only two weeks after she told me we were "done.". I said  Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post), and she kind of considered it, but obviously fell in love with the guy so it made no difference. I don't query the kids about what happens there. When he mentions the guy, which has been infrequent, I just nod and go "ok" and listen. I think I have a right as their father to listen for anything odd and aren't under obligation to tell her, though I can't say that I wouldn't ever not tell her something I found odd. She's attached as a pwBPD does, and mature judgement has kind of flown out the window.

My take is that you should focus on building trust with your son. If he tells you something, and it's between the two of you, honor that. If you tell your ex things that son says, and she twists it or uses it to confuse him, you get implicated. If your son tells you something he discovered over there, the best response is to ask him how that makes him feel. I kinda blew it in the early days when I got agitated about things that N/BPDx would tell S12, who was 9 at the time. I would "correct" the fallacy, and S12 could feel me being upset. So he did what any smart kid would do, he stopped telling me things his dad said. Then N/BPDx had a psychotic episode, and things opened up again, and by then I learned to focus on how S12 felt about things. For the last two years, he felt pretty comfortable telling me anything, knowing that I was strong enough to focus on him, no matter what it was about. It helps to be detached from the relationship -- makes it much easier to not get triggered.
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« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2014, 11:11:01 AM »

My question here for you, or anyone, is if I am obligated to tell her something like that? My take on it is that she has undertaken a juvenile relationship with young, narcissistic "kid" and it irks me that she gave him access to our children right away (he was saying how much he wanted to meet our son back in August, she told me, only two weeks after she told me we were "done.". I said  Red flag/bad  (click to insert in post), and she kind of considered it, but obviously fell in love with the guy so it made no difference. I don't query the kids about what happens there. When he mentions the guy, which has been infrequent, I just nod and go "ok" and listen. I think I have a right as their father to listen for anything odd and aren't under obligation to tell her, though I can't say that I wouldn't ever not tell her something I found odd. She's attached as a pwBPD does, and mature judgement has kind of flown out the window.

My take is that you should focus on building trust with your son. If he tells you something, and it's between the two of you, honor that. If you tell your ex things that son says, and she twists it or uses it to confuse him, you get implicated. If your son tells you something he discovered over there, the best response is to ask him how that makes him feel. I kinda blew it in the early days when I got agitated about things that N/BPDx would tell S12, who was 9 at the time. I would "correct" the fallacy, and S12 could feel me being upset. So he did what any smart kid would do, he stopped telling me things his dad said. Then N/BPDx had a psychotic episode, and things opened up again, and by then I learned to focus on how S12 felt about things. For the last two years, he felt pretty comfortable telling me anything, knowing that I was strong enough to focus on him, no matter what it was about. It helps to be detached from the relationship -- makes it much easier to not get triggered.

That is good advice.

I pulled into her mom's driveway this morning and he asked me, "why are we at grandma's?" I told him it was a normal day and I was going to work and he'd spend two days with mommy, after which we'd spend the whole weekend together. He said he didn't want to go with mommy. I asked him why, and he wouldn't answer. He was ok when we got into the door. Funny, because he was throwing several short tantrums last evening, and I was kind of hard on him (verbally), or I guess "firm" is the way to put it. He's in this PA mode where he says he wants something, I say no, then I say, "ok, then we'll do this" and he gets more upset at the alternative. Oh joy! You would think that he would want to go with his mom where he might have it easier... . though i know she can be firm with him as well (and who knows how much of that BPD temper she metes out upon him).

It was ok. He peed his bed last night, so I took him and put him with me around 4AM after making sure he didn't feel ashamed he peed the bed. He was upset, I wasn't. I don't know what it is, maybe that he's more bonded with me, I guess, as is becoming apparent. I'm not taking advantage of it. I think I'll put in an "off-line" call to my T to ask how I should handle this, since I won't see him for another 3 weeks. I could move the appointment up, but I imagine I'll have more stories to tell and want to get my money's worth out of the session. It's pretty much focused on parenting and the affect towards the kids now, since he's also a family and child therapist.
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