Teen kids in conflict at Mom's house.

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

My S15 is with me almost all the time now.  He sees his mom from time to time - she calls and asks him to dinner or church and he usually goes.  I never interfere with that.  And sometimes (but not always) he stays with her when I travel on business.

(I am usually out of town one or two nights a week.)

D17 manages her own schedule, and splits her time about equally between our homes, which are a few miles apart.  She has a car and spends a lot of time with friends and at the gym, so even when she's at my place she's not home a lot.  And both kids have lots of homework so they spent a lot of time in their rooms doing that.

When they are both with me things are usually fine.  They argue once in a while but usually get along great and they both help around the house.  D17 gives S15 a ride to and from school, which saves me a little time.  Both of them make dinner once a week, take out the garbage, etc.

But when they both stay with their mom, things go bad fast.

Last night I was traveling - the first night I've been gone in a couple weeks - and I got a text from D17:  "You need to call S15 and explain to him why he needs to stop acting like a complete jerk to his sister.  I asked him to sleep at Mom's so I could have a sleepover at your house and he refused.  So I'm going to sleep at Friend's house."  Basically if they're together at their mom's house they fight so much it just won't work - D17 will go to my house or a friend's house to sleep rather than stay there.

I wish I had a camera or at least audio in their mom's house so I could sort out what's going on, but I think I have a fair understanding of it.  Somehow they are both on edge when they are with their mom, and either one of them, can manage it OK, but when they are all there together it gets worse - I think their mom has subtle ways of pushing their buttons and doesn't know how to get them to stop bothering each other - and pretty soon it's unsustainable.

When they're with me, and they get on each others' nerves, I either tell them to go to their rooms for a while, or I just tell them to stop it and put them to work - ":)17, you do the dishes.  S15, make a shopping list - you're making dinner."  Then they argue with me a little but I insist they get those jobs done and that ends the fight.  But usually I don't need to do that very often - they get along fine most of the time.

About a year ago I changed S15's schedule from 50/50 (which really meant about 75/25) to "with me all the school nights" (which has worked out to almost all the time) and that has helped, because they are rarely both at their mom's house at the same time.

It's only another 15 months or so til D17 goes to college.  She may choose the one in our town but more likely she'll go somewhere else and this issue will fade away.  (But that's also when SS35 gets out of prison - he'll probably live with me and I think that will work well, but time will tell.)

My thinking is to continue to try to coach them both on this, but that hasn't worked very well up til now.  I've spoken openly with both of them about what I think is probably happening, and I've pointed out that they do OK at my place but not at their mom's, hoping they can try to make it work the same there too.  I'm very reluctant to talk to their mom about it, because I don't like to talk to her and because I don't really know what to tell her - "Quit being passive-aggressive and start setting a better example for them." probably won't work.  I doubt that she is doing it consciously;  I just think it's who she is.  She was always like that when we were married - great with very small kids but not with bigger kids.

Sometimes S15 stays at my house when I'm gone, and that works fine - he likes it - Hot Pockets for dinner and breakfast and lots of TV!  But I'm not sure that's the healthiest answer either... .

[Matt]

My S15 is with me almost all the time now.  He sees his mom from time to time - she calls and asks him to dinner or church and he usually goes.  I never interfere with that.  And sometimes (but not always) he stays with her when I travel on business.

(I am usually out of town one or two nights a week.)

D17 manages her own schedule, and splits her time about equally between our homes, which are a few miles apart.  She has a car and spends a lot of time with friends and at the gym, so even when she's at my place she's not home a lot.  And both kids have lots of homework so they spent a lot of time in their rooms doing that.

When they are both with me things are usually fine.  They argue once in a while but usually get along great and they both help around the house.  D17 gives S15 a ride to and from school, which saves me a little time.  Both of them make dinner once a week, take out the garbage, etc.

But when they both stay with their mom, things go bad fast.

Last night I was traveling - the first night I've been gone in a couple weeks - and I got a text from D17:  "You need to call S15 and explain to him why he needs to stop acting like a complete jerk to his sister.  I asked him to sleep at Mom's so I could have a sleepover at your house and he refused.  So I'm going to sleep at Friend's house."  Basically if they're together at their mom's house they fight so much it just won't work - D17 will go to my house or a friend's house to sleep rather than stay there.

I wish I had a camera or at least audio in their mom's house so I could sort out what's going on, but I think I have a fair understanding of it.  Somehow they are both on edge when they are with their mom, and either one of them, can manage it OK, but when they are all there together it gets worse - I think their mom has subtle ways of pushing their buttons and doesn't know how to get them to stop bothering each other - and pretty soon it's unsustainable.

When they're with me, and they get on each others' nerves, I either tell them to go to their rooms for a while, or I just tell them to stop it and put them to work - ":)17, you do the dishes.  S15, make a shopping list - you're making dinner."  Then they argue with me a little but I insist they get those jobs done and that ends the fight.  But usually I don't need to do that very often - they get along fine most of the time.

About a year ago I changed S15's schedule from 50/50 (which really meant about 75/25) to "with me all the school nights" (which has worked out to almost all the time) and that has helped, because they are rarely both at their mom's house at the same time.

It's only another 15 months or so til D17 goes to college.  She may choose the one in our town but more likely she'll go somewhere else and this issue will fade away.  (But that's also when SS35 gets out of prison - he'll probably live with me and I think that will work well, but time will tell.)

My thinking is to continue to try to coach them both on this, but that hasn't worked very well up til now.  I've spoken openly with both of them about what I think is probably happening, and I've pointed out that they do OK at my place but not at their mom's, hoping they can try to make it work the same there too.  I'm very reluctant to talk to their mom about it, because I don't like to talk to her and because I don't really know what to tell her - "Quit being passive-aggressive and start setting a better example for them." probably won't work.  I doubt that she is doing it consciously;  I just think it's who she is.  She was always like that when we were married - great with very small kids but not with bigger kids.

Sometimes S15 stays at my house when I'm gone, and that works fine - he likes it - Hot Pockets for dinner and breakfast and lots of TV!  But I'm not sure that's the healthiest answer either... .

[livednlearned]

My thinking is to continue to try to coach them both on this, but that hasn't worked very well up til now.  I've spoken openly with both of them about what I think is probably happening, and I've pointed out that they do OK at my place but not at their mom's, hoping they can try to make it work the same there too.  I'm very reluctant to talk to their mom about it, because I don't like to talk to her and because I don't really know what to tell her.

How do they respond when you coach them? Do they have any thoughts about why things devolve at their moms?

It sounds like you provide good structures for them when conflict starts to escalate, whereas maybe their mom doesn't do that. It's not that unusual for siblings to push each other's buttons, in my experience. But if they're in an environment where someone is paying attention and providing structure, then it's easier to curb that behavior. My brother and I had a very different relationship when my dad was around -- he was the patriarch of the house, no one argued with him. When it was just my mom, all hell broke loose. My brother didn't respect her, and she wasn't good at setting boundaries or being consistent. When she became overwhelmed, she would shut herself in her room and cry, which did nothing to stop the conflict.

[Matt]

My thinking is to continue to try to coach them both on this, but that hasn't worked very well up til now.  I've spoken openly with both of them about what I think is probably happening, and I've pointed out that they do OK at my place but not at their mom's, hoping they can try to make it work the same there too.  I'm very reluctant to talk to their mom about it, because I don't like to talk to her and because I don't really know what to tell her.

How do they respond when you coach them? Do they have any thoughts about why things devolve at their moms?

It sounds like you provide good structures for them when conflict starts to escalate, whereas maybe their mom doesn't do that. It's not that unusual for siblings to push each other's buttons, in my experience. But if they're in an environment where someone is paying attention and providing structure, then it's easier to curb that behavior. My brother and I had a very different relationship when my dad was around -- he was the patriarch of the house, no one argued with him. When it was just my mom, all hell broke loose. My brother didn't respect her, and she wasn't good at setting boundaries or being consistent. When she became overwhelmed, she would shut herself in her room and cry, which did nothing to stop the conflict.

Well interestingly enough, when they're both at my house and I'm not home, things go pretty well.  I think structure is a big part of it, and the structure I try to provide may help even when I'm not there, because they know when I get home if they have fought there will be consequences.  But the fights tend to happen, not when they are alone at my house, or when they are alone at their mom's house, but when all three of them are at her house.  So I'm pretty sure she's contributing to it, probably by some pretty subtle passive-aggressive methods.

When we lived together, she could make everybody, including me, tense up, just by walking in the room.  You just knew that if you said or did the wrong thing - or didn't do or say what she wanted you to - she could create chaos and ruin everybody's day.  My guess is, that's how it is over there at times, and the kids don't quite realize it, and are on edge.

They both listen to the coaching and I think they get it, but when they talk about what happens at their mom's house it's always about what the other kid did that justified what they did:  "Yes I hit him but it's his fault because he was doing such-and-such" - logic that won't fly with me and hasn't since they were little.  The other child is always the problem - never "I was in a bad mood and I pushed her - I shouldn't have done that." and never "Mom was in my face and I let her get under my skin and then took it out on S15."  Always ":)17 started it!" or "S15 started it!" - super-immature stuff, from kids who are pretty mature most of the time.

Neither of them have problems with other kids they are around.

[livednlearned]

They both listen to the coaching and I think they get it, but when they talk about what happens at their mom's house it's always about what the other kid did that justified what they did:  "Yes I hit him but it's his fault because he was doing such-and-such" - logic that won't fly with me and hasn't since they were little.  The other child is always the problem - never "I was in a bad mood and I pushed her - I shouldn't have done that." and never "Mom was in my face and I let her get under my skin and then took it out on S15."  Always ":)17 started it!" or "S15 started it!" - super-immature stuff, from kids who are pretty mature most of the time.

That's hard.

Do you think that asking them when they're together makes it harder for them to reflect on what's going on? They would have to have a ton of self-awareness to see that their mood made them do xyz, which caused a chain reaction, and that might be hard to reflect on when the perpetrator is standing right there, looking defiant or accusatory or whatever.

[Matt]

They both listen to the coaching and I think they get it, but when they talk about what happens at their mom's house it's always about what the other kid did that justified what they did:  "Yes I hit him but it's his fault because he was doing such-and-such" - logic that won't fly with me and hasn't since they were little.  The other child is always the problem - never "I was in a bad mood and I pushed her - I shouldn't have done that." and never "Mom was in my face and I let her get under my skin and then took it out on S15."  Always ":)17 started it!" or "S15 started it!" - super-immature stuff, from kids who are pretty mature most of the time.

That's hard.

Do you think that asking them when they're together makes it harder for them to reflect on what's going on? They would have to have a ton of self-awareness to see that their mood made them do xyz, which caused a chain reaction, and that might be hard to reflect on when the perpetrator is standing right there, looking defiant or accusatory or whatever.

I've usually talked with them about it individually, for just that reason.  That way, I can say to each kid, "I'm not talking with you about what the other kid did, I'm talking with you about what you did."

I think both of them understand what I'm telling them, but neither of them seem to be able to stand outside the situation, when it's happening, and see it for what it is.  And I know from experience that can be very hard to do... .

[bpbreakout]

BPDw and I are still together but your experience seems similar. s12 and d15 often fight when BPDw is around and they are a lot more relaxed otherwise. There are any number of reasons that I think BPDw subtlely contributes to the kids fighting. Table manners are a favorite conversation topic at family meals which always puts everyone on edge, BPDw is often doing things in a rush and expects kids to drop everything immediately to help with housework, there is a lot of inconsistency and little follow through and s12 is "golden" and d15 a "scapegoat". Must be difficult seeing what goes on if you are not living under the same roof. Personally I do encourage both kids to value their relationship and I'm open about the difficult family situation making things difficult between them and it's not all their fault. I'm also open with them one on one about how I think it's difficult for thr other one as they both have very different experiences. d15 sees counsellor instigated by me to help her deal with all these issues. Even if they don't appear to listen (what teenager does ?) I would definately keep up the coaching, you are obviously trying to get it through to them that it's them who are indivually responsible for how they behave whatever the provocation and no one else. If your ex is anythimg like my BPDw they will get the opposite message when they are at hers.

[Matt]

Thanks LnL and Breakout.

They were both with me the last week or so, and things started out badly - when I got home after being out of town they were fighting - but after that died down things went fine - they got along very well.

Now I'm traveling, and D17 is staying with her mom, but S15 is staying at my place - I made sure there is plenty of food, and he can walk to school or get a ride from D17.  I'll be home tomorrow.  Things work out OK this way - they're not both with their mom at the same time - but it's a little sad that S15 is alone.  (But he doesn't mind it at all.)

[livednlearned]

There are any number of reasons that I think BPDw subtlely contributes to the kids fighting. Table manners are a favorite conversation topic at family meals which always puts everyone on edge, BPDw is often doing things in a rush and expects kids to drop everything immediately to help with housework, there is a lot of inconsistency and little follow through and s12 is "golden" and d15 a "scapegoat". Must be difficult seeing what goes on if you are not living under the same roof.

Matt, you and your kids seem open to talking about BPDmom's behavior. When you talk to them individually, what would happen if you ask them to describe the level of tension in the house. Where it might be coming from, how it makes them feel.

I understand coaching them to focus on what they are responsible for -- their actions, reactions. But maybe asking them to reflect on the tension level will nudge them to make connections for themselves. Pretty hard stuff for adults to do, so I imagine it would be challenging for teens to do.

I'm not living with another adult, I don't have this in my own home, and S12 isn't seeing his dad right now, and has no siblings. So I'm out on a limb here 

But this is stuff that happens in my office. Boss goes on tilt because of abc that has nothing to do with my work. But she wants the whole office to drop everything to fix the problem, even though there is nothing any of us can do. Gets all my colleagues very keyed up, then later, two coworkers have tense interaction about something unrelated. Independent of each other, they come into my office to unload about the other one. I visualize Karpman Drama Triangle  and don't get engaged, but think about how boss stepped on everyone's anxiety pedals, and point out that there was tension in office, so maybe they felt safer to release pressure with colleague instead of boss.

Understanding how contagious anxiety and tension is, how people look to release it when it builds up, often picking someone not too threatening -- that's a good thing to be aware of.

[Matt]

Yeah, I think you're right - it's about the tension level - I lived with their mom for more than ten years and it was often very tense, for no clear reason.

The way their big brother describes it - he and their mom lived together for twelve years before she had another child - "One day she would be very loving.  The next day she would treat me like dirt.  Then the rest of the week she might ignore me completely."  Nothing to do with the child's behavior - or mine - all about what was going on with her.

And as you say, it might be possible for an adult to see that, but impossible for a young child to recognize that it has nothing to do with him.  So their big brother was drinking regularly by 12... .

I think S15 and D17 are both mature enough to get that, if I can find the right time and place to bring it up.  When they're in the midst of a fight, or shortly after, it's hard to get them out of "He started it!" mode... .

[livednlearned]

I think S15 and D17 are both mature enough to get that, if I can find the right time and place to bring it up.  When they're in the midst of a fight, or shortly after, it's hard to get them out of "He started it!" mode... .

I think that's true for most of us. I'm curious what would happen if you brought it up after -- like now. And said something about how anxiety and tension is contagious, and we tend to pick fights with easy targets, just to release the tension. Then reference what it's like when they're at their moms and they fight. If you talk to them, I hope you let us know how it goes.

[Matt]

I had that talk with S15 this morning, and he listened, and said he understood, and I think he probably did, but he didn't talk much.  I suggested that he try to see situations objectively, like a fly on the wall, and not just from his own point of view when things are tense.  Time will tell whether he can apply that under stress.

I'll talk with D17 again when I have the chance, and I'm sure she'll understand it too.

Thanks!

[ennie]

Just thought I would pitch my two cents in.  I have not read all of this thread, so I may be redundant here. 

We experience much the same thing with my SD14 and SD10.  They get along pretty well here, though less so as SD14 has entered the teenage hormonal storm.  But at moms and when they see or hear from mom, and on transition days, they fight very intensely. 

What I can perceive about why this is involves several factors.  First, at mom's, SD14 is clearly the favorite.  She is very enmeshed, and is supported in being unfair to SD10 who is not enmeshed so much with mom, and says she loves all the parents the same (even me, SM, which is clearly a trigger for mom).  Second, SD14's challenging behaviors are more like mom's.  She is more emotional and blaming, particularly as a teen, which is how mom is, whereas SD10 tends to become introverted when challenged.  So mom can identify more with SD14's behavior and defends it.  The other issue is just the general stress at mom's--I can imagine that is the case with your kids as well, particularly if SD15 and SD17 have a different schedule with mom, so they are dealing with adjusting to each others' presence or absence often, and the effects on mom's attention and focus on each of them.  Finally, my SD's mom models really harsh ways of dealing with conflict and fear often.  She is often badmouthing someone, often us, and also the kids.  She is very loving when she is in public or in front of us, but when the kids accidentally have her on speaker phone, she is full of rage and put downs for everyone in her life.  I notice that when I hear that, I am likely to pass that style of communication on to someone else, particularly if it is directed at me.  I hear blame, I want to blame.  I imagine this is more so if it is your own mom who is dishing it out. 

The only advice I have is: 1) really working on modeling good communication for conflict--I recommend the Love and Logic approach if you are familiar with this.  Sounds like you already use this style, but really helping the kids to use it.  I do a lot of helping them to negotiate conflicts, teaching them these skills; 2) really helping to right any power imbalances in your home; and 3) if you get a sense of who has more power in mom's home, appealing to their sense of compassion for their sibling.  With my SD's, SD14 has much more power than does SD10 in their mom's home.  I just had a talk with her about how SD10 is feeling really hurt by how SD14 is treating her.  She started of defensive, but when she saw I was not "getting her in trouble" or saying she was doing something wrong, but just wanted her to understand that she has the power to profoundly impact her sister's well being and self-esteem, she really got it and promised to try to do it differently, to be less intense. 

I think your kids are in therapy, if I remember correctly?  If so, I would mention it the the T.  With my SDs, I have also found general self-awareness raising to be useful, and in particular, personality typing tests/modalities can be really useful for teens, at least teen girls.  For SD14, we used the Eniagram.  Just answering the questions (as to whether she like this or that, had this or that challenge) generated more self-awareness, and when she read the description, it was spot on.  One of the points was that while she is very loving and wants to help, she is often intrusive and difficult for others who are close to her.  She really thought this was true, and it helped her to be more self-aware. 

I would say that my overall perspective is that the ways the girls in my home engage in conflict is heavily influenced by their mom's conflict style, and that my goal is to help them to be self-aware so that they have choice in their relationships as they grow up as to how they address conflicts and close relationships.  I express this to them overtly, particularly when I see it or when they treat me that way, which as you pointed out, is much less than in their other home.  So I take every opportunity. It may sound harsh, but I let them get away with NO disrespect whatsoever.  And I explain that I prefer them to just tell me how it is rather than using sarcasm or rudeness, even when upset.  I explain that I want this partly because it is less painful to me, and partly because I want them to have tools for dealing with conflict that will help them maintain close relationships in the future, and that treating people unkindly has an impact, even if it is "just" your sister or stepmom, and that I really care about how they feel and how supported they will be as adults. 

I think that has been the most effective.  The result is that SD14 tells me often that she is really working on this stuff, that she knows she can be mean but really tries not to be, because she wants to be a loving person.  With my SD's, appealing to their own sense of values and morals, from a loving place in myself, has probably been the most effective at helping them to internalize the idea that being kind and working through conflict is important, no matter where they are. 

But, it is still much harder at moms.  Good luck with all of this.  I sure understand how challenging it can be to see the kids you love being hurtful to each other, and how powerless it feels to not really be able to change this. 

[Matt]

Ennie,

Thanks - lots of good thoughts!

I don't know much about "Love and Logic" - maybe that's what I should focus on next.  Is there a good place to learn that, or do I need to sign up for a course or get a book?

The kids haven't been in counseling since we moved almost four years ago.  I'm sure they would benefit from it but I had hoped to avoid the expense.  D17 will probably be going away to school in 15 months... .

What I see the most clearly is how their mom's ways of coping with stress have been learned by the kids.  When she is upset, she throws a fit just like a child's - says unfair things, makes accusations, and occasionally even throws things.  (She once threw an iron at me - missed me but ruined the iron and left a dent in the wall.)  Nothing I've ever figured out can calm her down;  it just runs its course, and then she usually goes to bed, even if it's the middle of the day.

She also blames a lot.  When something goes wrong, her immediate instinct - which she gives in to - is to blame somebody.  Sometimes it's actually funny - she says things that make no sense - but you have to have some perspective to see the humor, and of course that's hard for the kids.  (It was hard for me too when we were together.)  The kids tell me these stories and we can all see how ridiculous it is, but when it happens it upsets the kids and they get defensive, and sometimes deflect the blame onto the other kid.

So they have learned these behaviors - fits, blaming, accusations, threats - as ways to deal with stress and problems.  Much worse when they were young - S15 used to throw pretty amazing fits up til 12 or so.  When they're with me, I see those behaviors at times, but not often, and usually I can point out what's happening and they both can lift themselves up out of the destructive behaviors and into problem-solving behaviors.

"Power imbalances" - I hadn't thought about that and I don't really know the answer.  D17 has a car, and lots of friends, and has worked the last couple of summers so she has a little money, so she has a lot of power right now;  she can even say, "I'm going to the gym." and leave the situation, which I know from experience is a very helpful option to have.  S15 has his own room to go to, but nothing there - by which I mean, no TV or computer - so it's almost like hiding under the bed.  He doesn't have as many friends or any way to be with them away from school - his mom doesn't live near the school and none of the kids' friends live where she does.

I did have a good talk with S15 this week.  He didn't say much, but I think he listened, and I'm hoping it might help.  I'll get a chance to talk with D17 one of these days too, and I'm sure she'll hear me.  Time will tell whether they can put things into practice when they are stressed... .

[ennie]

Matt:

You can google "Love and Logic" and Foster Cline and you will find their site.  They have mp3s that are short and you can listen to right away, as well as videos and books you can order. 

The kids, particularly my 14 year old step daughter, have been having more conflict at our house than is usual, so we have been able to work on this more.  A couple things I like about the "Love and Logic" approach--one is that they suggest not warning kids a lot, but setting limits before you are irritated about something.  I have been doing this more with SD14 and it really works--asking her to be polite when she is just a little rude before it is a conflict with her sister.  She is much better at controlling her irritation then, and so I can give her the immediate positive feedback of how much I like it when she asks in a polite way or treats her sister well even if she is annoyed. 

Another thing I learned from the love and logic folks is to try to keep the kids and myself operating in the frontal lobes--the idea is that when people are angry or upset, it results in others responding more from a brain-stem part of the brain, which is better at black and white thinking and not as good at reason.  When you feel more safe and peaceful, you can use reason and are more open to creative solutions to conflict.  That helps to explain why the kids fight more in the more stressful environment at mom's house. 


Good luck with all of this.  On a hopeful note, I remember an adult friend telling me that what he really liked about being the child of divorced parents is that he got to see different ways of doing things.  He tried them all, but as an adult, he says he feels more free than his peers to act in ways he feels good about because he knows there are options.  I love to think of that when I am worried about the kids behavior or how their relationships with others will be as adults.  Makes me feel like my job is just to give them options, not to do it right all the time. 

[Matt]

Thanks - this helps.

I think you're right - kids with two homes, and parents who do things very differently, can surely learn from that.

I think it's probably no accident that both Lincoln and Churchill came from homes with big problems - one parent with serious mental illness.  Not what I wanted for my kids but potentially a source of strength if they make it through these years OK.

My stepson, now 35, didn't.  He was raised by his mom, who has BPD, and was drinking by 12.  I married her when he was 18, and he was doing other drugs by then.  Years of daily drug use, and all the problems associated with addiction, and how he's clean and sober more than five years, but in prison til next summer - he'll be 36 when he gets out, and his life will be tough.

My stepdaughter is now 24, and on the surface doing very well - a degree from an Ivy League school, now going for her Ph.D., very smart and capable.  But she is in deep denial about her mom's problems, and very distant from all of us - she is always polite and respectful, but very entitled and rarely talks with any of us.  I think she has some serious issues but they haven't caused big obvious problems so I don't know if she will ever feel the need to deal with them.

So... . I have very clear motivation to help my younger kids, and I think they are generally doing very well - happy and healthy and doing well in school.  This one area - big conflicts over little things - needs to improve.

I'm out of town this week, and my trip got extended, so I suggested to S15 last night that he go over and stay with his mom after school today, til I get home tomorrow - 1 night alone in my house is OK but 2 seems too much.  He said OK.  D17 is already over there with her mom.  So we'll see how they do... .

Thanks!

Matt

[Matt]

Yesterday I called S15 and told him I probably wouldn't be home until late Saturday, so maybe he should go over to his mom's house today (Friday) to have dinner and spend the night.  He said OK.

But I got done earlier and came home this evening... . and he was here.  He got his mom to pick him up after work - he was at an extracurricular activity - and bring him home to my place.  I had left some stuff for dinner, so he fed himself and did his homework.  It worked out fine... . but he chose to spend two nights alone at my place rather than with his mom and D17.

I didn't scold him.  No harm no foul.  His homework got done and the house was pretty clean... .

[ennie]

You are probably great at this, but just wanted to ask if you tell them you love them often and well?  I was reminded of how important this is recently... . my good friend (who is a stepmom) and her mate were having all kinds of problems with her 16 year old stepson... . vandalism, thefts, breaking in... . she drug him to a counselor who suggested telling him they love him.  Dad started doing that, and the behavior issues cleared right up.  6 months now, and all is suddenly well.  Sometimes, it can be so simple to make a huge difference in someone's life. 

[Matt]

You are probably great at this, but just wanted to ask if you tell them you love them often and well?  I was reminded of how important this is recently... . my good friend (who is a stepmom) and her mate were having all kinds of problems with her 16 year old stepson... . vandalism, thefts, breaking in... . she drug him to a counselor who suggested telling him they love him.  Dad started doing that, and the behavior issues cleared right up.  6 months now, and all is suddenly well.  Sometimes, it can be so simple to make a huge difference in someone's life. 

That's a really good point, and I'm not sure how to grade myself on this.

I come from the Midwest - grew up on a farm - and I don't think I ever heard my father say "I love you" to anyone, but I never doubted that both my parents loved me.  My mother spoke kind words every day, and my father showed his love through actions - mostly by working hard and putting food on the table, but in other ways too.

I think I'm mostly the same - a little of both of them.  I work hard to support them, and I do lots of stuff for them and with them, and I know they know I love them.  Both kids say "Love you!" to me fairly often - sometimes meaning "Bye!" at the end of a conversation - and I say it back.  And we have lots of talks about lots of stuff, and I'm sure they recognize that as caring.

This weekend D17 started her new job and worked Saturday and Sunday evenings.  The kids and I usually watch a movie during and after dinner, but S15 wanted to play board games - we haven't done that in years - so Saturday we played Risk and last night Monopoly.  He really got into it - we played long games and he wanted to keep playing - and I'm sure he appreciated that I did that - really good father/son time which many parents find difficult at these ages - some kids don't want to spend time with their parents.

So I think the love is there, and they both know it, but if I had to count the times I've said "I love you", it wouldn't be that many.  I'm not sure if this is an issue or not.

The conflict between them hasn't happened again in a few weeks, but they haven't spent time together at their mom's house.  Yesterday they took her to brunch and a movie - I took S15 to get her flowers and gave D17 money for a gift - they were gone several hours and it went OK, but later D17 told me "S15 was being kind of a jerk so I'm not going to take him to school this week."  Not a big fight but not getting along well either, and the problems don't happen when I'm around to see them, so it's hard to say who's "at fault" or exactly what's going on... .

[Matt]

PS - to Ennie's point about telling them I love them... .

This morning I took S15 to school, and when we got there, he didn't get out of the car right away - he kind of hesitated, and then said, in a lighthearted way, "Just gotta tell you I love you Dad." and gave me a kind of half-serious bro kind of hug, like guys do, but still a hug, and it was his idea.  I said "I love you too!" and he got out - not a deep moment - he's a joker 99% of the time and a jerk 1% of the time, and rarely talks about his feelings - like me and lots of guys - so for him this was a pretty touching gesture.

Maybe I need to learn from him and make a few more gestures from time to time, for both of the kids... .

[ennie]

I notice with my stepdaughters that they really like to know we love them, but also WHAT we love about them.  That we are grateful for their particular qualities, want to spend time with them, and miss them when they are off at mom's.  For SD10, who is not the "favorite" of BPD mom (why do so many BPD parents need to pick favorites?), it is especially important to her to hear what I like and love about her.  I tell her how much I appreciate how helpful she is, that I love her cheerful temperament, and her honesty.  Mom is very critical of her, and while nothing can replace the love and approval of a mom, at least she has words to put to who she is that are not mean-spirited. 

I think that is a lot of what those words do.  Everyone has a different way of expressing love, and words alone do so little!  But in terms of how we see ourselves and our self-esteem, knowing that we are valuable, lovable, and having specific examples of our strengths is really useful.  So while words do not equal love, they often do have a lot to do with how we see ourselves.  I notice that with my SD14, because she has a bigger personality and likes to have conflict, both DH and I spend more time connecting with her, often starting with conflict but almost always ending with a deeper connection.  SD10 is so helpful and non-confrontational that we have few challenges, but it is also harder to remember to pay her a compliment.  Lately, she has been saying that mom and SD14 do not include her or believe her, and that SD14 is being mean, and it is so painful for her.  She says she often feels left out because her sister gets so much attention. 

At any rate, I just try to take care to tell SD10 how I see her, which is that she is an amazing little girl, very helpful and loving and wise, and that I love her.  This does not fix the pain of sister and mom NOT getting her, but it gives her a bigger context to see from, a way through the hard stuff. 

[Matt]

Thanks Ennie - some pretty close parallels... .

Here's a little update:

On Sunday I talked with SS35, and he had a good insight.  D17 writes to him fairly often, and talks with him by phone once in a while, and uses him as her way to vent - she tells him how she's doing and everything in her life.  He told me one of her big issues now is that S15 is always at my place - he rarely stays with their mom - so she gets no alone time with me.  When S15 is around, she is so unhappy with him she usually prefers to stay with her mom, or stays in her room or hangs out with friends.

SS's suggestion was to make S15 stay with him mom more, so D17 can have more alone time with me.  I'm very reluctant to do that, because I think when S15 is alone with his mom, that doesn't work, and when he and D17 are both with their mom, that's even worse.  We went to our current schedule - S15 with me almost all the time - for a good reason, and it's working (for S15).

The good news is, this week S15 is gone - he is on an academic team that earned the right to go to the world finals in another state.  He got on a plane early Tuesday and will be back Sunday - a big deal for him.

So D17 is with me this week and we have had more time together and just quiet time without S15 around.  It doesn't bother me when he's around - he can be a jerk but I can manage that - but I think SS's observation is a good one - D17 deserves some time with me... .

So this week we've had a little more time to talk about her future and stuff.

Not sure how this can play out in the future;  this is an unusual week since S15 is gone.  He's looking for work this summer but will presumably be around the house most of the time.

I think both kids know very well that I love them and why, though it can't hurt to say it more and better.  I definitely tend to show it not say it - that's how my parents were.  D17 definitely thinks I give S15 too much slack, and she may be right, but I'm reluctant to let her opinion influence my parenting too much - I think I'm doing pretty well with S15 and need to be steady in the way I deal with him, and I think she is too sensitive at times - to quick to make some small annoying thing he does into a big deal rather than shrugging it off or handling it more gracefully.

Interestingly, both kids tend to lump me in with their mom:  "You guys let S15 get away with anything!", as if we coordinate our approaches, which is the furthest thing from the truth.  Once in a while we consult with each other, but rarely, and my approach is usually very different from their mom's.  It seems like maybe they want us to be working as a team - they're projecting that on us, rather than dealing with each of us individually... .

[PinkieV]

After remarrying this last year, DD18 and I started a regular "date night" to have dinner and talk.  It did our relationship a world of good, and I miss it now that she's working.  Maybe you could do something like that with your daughter?

[Matt]

After remarrying this last year, DD18 and I started a regular "date night" to have dinner and talk.  It did our relationship a world of good, and I miss it now that she's working.  Maybe you could do something like that with your daughter?

Yeah, I think I could.  (If it meant leaving S15 at home, that would be fine - he would like that.)

Thanks!

[GaGrl]

Great idea!  My sister and I were very different personalities, and my dad made sure we both had "focus" time with him.  I still love my one-on-one time with my dad, and he's 92 years old!

[Deb]

My husband's niece used to have a weekly date with her three youngest (they were the only ones still at home". This could be a walk to the store for ice cream, a trip to the park, or whatever. It was the child's choice and lasted 1 to 3 hours. It worked very well for them.

[Matt]

I think you're right - a little time is probably plenty.  The key is that I'm available without the other kid interrupting.

At the same time... . I guess as I think about it, I'm a little disappointed that D17 is having this problem, because she hasn't done what would have been effective.  She hasn't just asked me to spend some time with her:  ":)ad, can you and I go out to breakfast on Sunday so we can talk about my college stuff?".  Or she could just come and talk with me, any time, when S15 is in his room studying or whatever.  Not rocket science.

So part of this may be for her to grow up and take responsibility for asking for what she needs and wants.  I don't mind at all - I'm glad to spend time with her - but she can't depend on others to figure out what she needs and come up with ways to help - she needs to ask for what she needs (and I think generally she's very good about that).

She has a good relationship with SS35, and she trusts him not to tell me stuff she tells him confidentially, but in this case I'm sure she won't be mad that he told me about this issue.  Either she said she wouldn't mind, or she'll trust his judgment - she'll know that he told me to be helpful.  She may be consciously or not-quite-consciously using him as a filter - a way to communicate with me but not directly.  OK for now but not really the best way to communicate with someone you live with.

(The irony is, SS35 is in prison, a few hours from our home, and communication with him is limited.  So if she chose to communicate through him, rather than directly with me, that's pretty bizarre, but maybe a nice comment on their relationship, and mine with SS35 too.)

[ennie]

Matt, it is just so great how aware you are and how committed to seeing what is happening with your kids and working on your relationship with them.  What great modeling that is. 

Sounds like you have figured it out.  Because we have dad and me (SM) in the house, we can each take a kid, and they both like time with each of us.  But sometimes when we both want time alone with one kid, or when one kids wants that, we just arrange a sleepover for the other one.

Good luck!  I think a big parenting realization for me is that there is so much room for things to be rough, and in fact, that having problems, poor communication, not knowing how to do it for both the kids and adults is what creates the opportunity to figure it out together, which creates a strong bond.  That the hard things are what creates depth and love and a sense of safety.  So it is too bad your daughter did not just say she wanted more time with you, but by her not telling you, it creates an opportunity to talk about it in a way that bring more connection. 

Anyway, sounds like you have a great thing going, great kids. 

Have fun this weekend!

[Matt]

Thanks.

I guess one hidden benefit of this is that it is keeping SS35 involved in our lives, and he is playing a valuable role, which I think is very important to him right now.  When you're in prison you're treated like dirt and it's not good for your self-esteem.  I think he is very eager to be helpful to us in some way.

S15 gets back tomorrow.  D17 told me this morning, "I think I'll go over to Mom's house tomorrow."  Not what I would prefer but that's where we are for now... .