Does she really mean this?

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

Monday is her birthday (fiance's ex... . uBPD) and apparently she wanted to spend Sunday afternoon with the kids (it's our weekend) but didn't mention it until today. We had assumed she would get them Monday on her actual birthday (like normal) and made plans Sunday. Well, when she found out she couldn't have the kids Sunday as requested, she completely flipped her lid. Mean, nasty, name-calling texts to my fiance, followed by a screaming, raving lunatic-type phone call, followed by more mean, nasty texts.

Turns out SD12 was around during all this and actually in the car with her during the phone call. Several F-bombs were dropped in front of her, which are becoming a more frequent occurrence as she spirals farther and farther down. When they got back to her apartment, bioMom left to go workout and SD12 called her dad, in tears, fearing for her safety and wanting to leave.

This week with their Mom has been rough. The past few months really. As I said, she is really spiraling and life with her is becoming harder and harder for them, especially SD12. For the first time, they are really expressing a desire to not be with her and just how miserable they are. But they feel stuck, like they can't say anything to her about it because she will just get angry (er) and blame their Dad and I for "making" them like us more and want to be with us instead of her.

So... . apparently tonight while she was in the car with SD12 and so upset, she said something like "Maybe sometime when I'm alone in the car I'll just drive off the road in the ditch and I'll be dead." She also said things like "Nobody cares about me anyway" and she frequently tries to lay these guilt trips on the kids and tell them they don't love her or they would rather be with us.

My fiance is beside himself and doesn't know what to do. He is concerned for their safety at this point. Their mother is clearly unstable, but if he tries to go get them or take them away, and she hurts herself or worse, then they will blame him forever.

So, did she mean it? What do we do?

[ShannonRT]

Monday is her birthday (fiance's ex... . uBPD) and apparently she wanted to spend Sunday afternoon with the kids (it's our weekend) but didn't mention it until today. We had assumed she would get them Monday on her actual birthday (like normal) and made plans Sunday. Well, when she found out she couldn't have the kids Sunday as requested, she completely flipped her lid. Mean, nasty, name-calling texts to my fiance, followed by a screaming, raving lunatic-type phone call, followed by more mean, nasty texts.

Turns out SD12 was around during all this and actually in the car with her during the phone call. Several F-bombs were dropped in front of her, which are becoming a more frequent occurrence as she spirals farther and farther down. When they got back to her apartment, bioMom left to go workout and SD12 called her dad, in tears, fearing for her safety and wanting to leave.

This week with their Mom has been rough. The past few months really. As I said, she is really spiraling and life with her is becoming harder and harder for them, especially SD12. For the first time, they are really expressing a desire to not be with her and just how miserable they are. But they feel stuck, like they can't say anything to her about it because she will just get angry (er) and blame their Dad and I for "making" them like us more and want to be with us instead of her.

So... . apparently tonight while she was in the car with SD12 and so upset, she said something like "Maybe sometime when I'm alone in the car I'll just drive off the road in the ditch and I'll be dead." She also said things like "Nobody cares about me anyway" and she frequently tries to lay these guilt trips on the kids and tell them they don't love her or they would rather be with us.

My fiance is beside himself and doesn't know what to do. He is concerned for their safety at this point. Their mother is clearly unstable, but if he tries to go get them or take them away, and she hurts herself or worse, then they will blame him forever.

So, did she mean it? What do we do?

[Matt]

What is the legal custody situation?

[Nope]

Unfortunately, your fiance needs to decide how far he is willing to go over these behaviors.  It's disturbing that the child is calling for fear for her own safety. Does this fear have any basis? Has he BPD mom done anything physically harmful in the past? Or is she just screaming and cursing? Also, does she have any history of self harm?  I guess I'd want as much information as possible before making the decision to bring this to the attention of the court. (Because that is the only way you are going to be able to change a situation like that.)

I am deeply worried for my fiance's children. They are absolutely suffering with the current parenting arrangement. We are doing everything we can to change it. And frankly, I don't care if they hate me forever as long as they are safe. But, having said that, as much as D11 says she wants to stay with her mom, I feel like she will be secretly relieved the knowledge that the choice is totally out of her hands. We don't ask the kids what they want. If BPD mom wants to be made, she can be mad at us because we will do what we are going to do regardless of the children's stated wishes. This means less pressure on the kids about what they will or won't say.

[ShannonRT]

50/50 every other week.

He went over there last night and defused the situation. They fought and argued (away from the kids) and ultimately, he got her calmed down and she acknowledged that her behavior was unacceptable and she apologized to the kids. We got them back today for the week and she changed her plans so she could have them Monday night on her birthday. She's still being passive/aggressive and rude, but at least the immediate crisis seems to have passed.

He is calling their counselor to try and have a phone consultation and get some advice about the situation.

[Matt]

Well, when she found out she couldn't have the kids Sunday as requested, she completely flipped her lid. Mean, nasty, name-calling texts to my fiance, followed by a screaming, raving lunatic-type phone call, followed by more mean, nasty texts.

You may have to do what has worked for many of us:  limit communication to e-mail only, except in emergencies, and only respond to e-mails that have something constructive in them.

For example, if she e-mailed you to request, in appropriate language, that you change the schedule so she could have the kids on Sunday, you could answer, "I'm sorry but we already made plans for Sunday.  We'll drop them off at noon Monday as we previously agreed."  Then don't respond to anything else on this subject, but keep any inappropriate e-mails she might send, in case you might need them later.

Don't respond to texts.  Let phone calls go to voice mail.  No face-to-face meetings without a non-family adult third party present.

I would also suggest getting the kids a counselor - someone each of them can talk with in confidence - not as a weapon against their mom, but as a resource that will help each of them cope with her behavior.

As to whether she meant what she said - whether she has suicidal thoughts or might even be a danger to the kids - there's no way to know.  She may have meant it at the moment, but felt fine ten minutes later.

People with BPD commit (not attempt) suicide many times more often than most people.  People with BPD can also be violent toward others.  A parent with BPD may not always distinguish between her kids and herself in a normal way;  she may see the kids as part of her, and being separated from them, even for a short time, as something to be avoided at any cost.

It may also be worth talking to an attorney who has experience with BPD (if you can find one).  Depending how things work where you live - I'm not an attorney and nobody here can give you legal advice - it might be possible to file a motion for a Custody Evaluator to be appointed, who can administer objective psych evals to both parents.  That might get her mental health onto the table in an objective, fair way, which could lead to treatment and/or a change in custody to protect the kids.

Good things to read:  "Stop Walking On Eggshells", "Understanding The Borderline Mother", "Splitting" by William A. Eddy (and Eddy's web site, www.HighConflictInstitute.com), and ":)ivorce Poison".

[ShannonRT]

BPD mom has never done any physical harm, only emotional. She also doesn't have any history of self-harm... . yet.

We don't want to take her to court, but we are getting closer and closer to that reality.

The kids have a counselor. He called him this morning.

[Matt]

If she has an attorney, another option may be for your lawyer to talk to hers, and lay out the concerns, and see if there is a way to make things better without going to court.  The other lawyer will know - because it's your lawyer making the approach - that if something can't be worked out, you might go to court over this.

Let me give you an example... .

About a year ago my ex took the kids to get their school physicals, but she took them to a different doctor than I usually take them to.  This doctor gave them questionnaires, and S(then)14 answered some of the questions in a way that caused her concern.  The doctor concluded that he may be severely depressed or even suicidal.

I talked with the doctor and we agreed to get him into counseling.  I did not share the doctor's concerns, but thought it could only be a good thing for him.  Meanwhile, I talked with S14 and D(then)16, and concluded that when they were with their mom, there was a lot of stress, and that might be difficult for S14 to handle.

So I wrote an e-mail to their mom, stating that I believed it would be best for S14 to live with me full-time for the rest of the school year.  He could see his mom whenever he wanted on weekends - even stay overnight with her - he could work that out with her.

His mom said OK.  I think she loves the kids but doesn't really want them around a lot, and she was probably also concerned - she put more weight in the doctor's concerns than I did (which I think means she doesn't know S14 very well).

It wasn't "You're a bad mother so S14 should live with me!".  It was more like, "Let's try it another way for a while and see if that helps."  If she had fought me on the issue, she knows I might have lawyered up and not in a gentle way - if we ever go to court I will go to win and she will very bad.  That fear may have contributed to her agreement.

It worked out pretty well - S14 is doing great - the counselor saw him several times and said she had no concerns about him.

My point is, if you know where you stand legally, and what your options are - Custody Evaluator for example - then it might be possible to work out a change that will make things better for the kids, and maybe less stressful for their mom too.

[ShannonRT]

Mini-update:

We got the kids back Friday and had a great weekend... . pretty uneventful as far as bioMom goes. She was hateful and grouchy, especially about the plans we had on Sunday that interfered with her birthday today, but nothing really too dramatic.

Well, last night SD12 had a panic attack. Tears, nausea, stomach hurting, almost hyperventilating at times. She struggles with anxiety at times and apparently had some stomach problems immediately after the divorce, but I've never seen her like this. Thing is... . nothing had happened to spur it.

We had been to a local water park with another family, she'd had a great day with her best friend... . she hadn't even talked to her Mom since that morning and it was only very brief then. She went upstairs to bed and a few minutes later came back down complaining of nausea and not feeling good and it just snowballed into this panic attack from there. It took DF an hour to get her calmed down and she finally fell asleep on the couch and went to bed when we got up to go to bed, but ended up in our bed in the middle of the night sometime. She is definitely a daddy's girl and wants him when she's upset or not feeling well.

I don't know what's up. She was definitely over-tired, but there hadn't been any Mom stress yesterday. I guess everything that's been going on for some time though, could just be adding up. And even though nothing had happened THAT day, her bucket is full and running over.

[Matt]

I'm sorry - I don't remember - does SD12 have a counselor?

Mine were 8 and 10 when we separated, and stepkids 17 and 29.  All four acted out in big ways.  S8 threw huge fits.  D10 cried.  SD17 got caught smoking weed in the bathroom, and admitted she did it to get our attention.  SS29 was in rehab at the time and lashed out at one of his counselors, verbally - obviously a reaction to what was going on at home.  (The counselor handled it well.)

I started with the school counselor, and I was glad to learn that she knew the kids very well, and she offered to look out for them.  She suggested a counselor in private practice, and I called her, and met her, and took the kids to see her regularly for a couple of years.  My wife's lawyer tried to make an issue of it, but because I got the referral, I couldn't be accused of shopping for someone to take my side, and the judge said it was fine, and even made my wife pay part of the cost.

Maybe there are other ways to minimize SD12's stress - reading rather than TV, sitting quietly together, music, whatever seems to mellow her out.  When she talks, listening very well and responding, so she knows she is heard.

[ShannonRT]

Yes, they both have a counselor. DF has been trying to get a phone consultation with him this week and is on the waiting list for appointments.

Last night she was STILL arguing with him about her birthday and how we intentionally made plans Sunday to go to the water park so she couldn't have the kids (even though her birthday was Monday and she didn't ask to get them). And we should've cancelled our plans once we found out she did want them!

It's amazing how once they feel like they have been wronged, no matter how unrealistic or unreasonable, they latch on to it and just WON'T LET IT GO. It becomes a week-long (or longer) argument. She told DF last night she will NEVER forgive him for this and she's being so rude and hateful to the kids 

[Matt]

You guys seriously need to disengage.  She can only argue if she has someone to argue with.

In the last years of our marriage, when I traveled on business, my wife used to call me in the evening, when I was tired and wanted to go to bed, and start in on whatever was on her mind - accusations that I was cheating on her, complaints about how everything was my fault, whatever.

I finally decided to set a boundary, but I decided not to tell her about it, because then it would be one more thing to argue about.

So the next time she started in, I put down the phone and went about my business.  In a few minutes I picked the phone up, and she was still ranting, so I put it down again.  After a while it went quiet so I hung it up.

I did this a few times, and then did it the right way - hung up on her whenever she started in.

It didn't take her long to figure out that any time she spoke to me inappropriately, I was going to hang up the phone, so she quit doing that.

Now I wonder what took me so long.  And that was while we were married.

If my ex calls me with something about the kids, I make time for her if I can, and we both keep it brief.  I do her that courtesy too - I don't call her to chat, only to give her some important information, and I keep it short.  If she ever starts in on me again, she knows I'll just hang up the phone.  If we were face-to-face, I would turn and walk away.  I won't listen even a little of that baloney - no arguments, no accusations, no complaints.  Just a brief conversation with information about the kids.

And of course if you use e-mail it's even easier - just ignore anything irrelevant and only respond to what is appropriate.

[ennie]

I really agree with Matt that you need to disengage.  It is my experience with the BPD ex of my husband that conflict is her way of connecting, so she is not creating drama and conflict because she wants something, but because she wants the conflict itself.  It seems like it is about the birthday, or her anger, or something, but it is not, at least for us it really seems to be about the need to connect.  And for DH and me, that way of connecting is terribly stressful and miserable; we just cannot sustain the energy. 

Witnessing parental conflict is also terribly painful and anxiety producing for kids.  This stress can lead to all kinds of problems, including tummy aches and longer term challenges. 

For us, DH let BPD mom know that he wanted to communicate in writing.  It took a few weeks of not answering calls--this was more challenging because she is a bit of a technophobe--but then she stopped calling entirely.  This means that whether the kids are at mom's or dads when the conflict is brewing, they do not have to hear it.  In our family, it was also great for DH to become aware he had this power, because during his marriage to BPDmom, he never felt like he could set boundaries. 

The other thing that I think is that it is really important to shift the power balance so that the parents who are sane have more power.  This usually means a custody order that spells out things that are the subject of argument, that requires communication to be in writing, and that limits conflict by making clear agreements.  The process for getting a good order/plan is one of the worst possible experiences, really, so should only be undertaken if needed and with a good base of support, counselors, peace of mind, before commencing!

My personal suggestion is that you and DH could first do what you can with the power you have, which is to stop engaging in the conflict, period.  Do it in writing.  For about 4 years, DH had a strict policy of absolutely no last minute changes in the parenting schedule, period, and a couple of times had to text her that if she changed the plan, he would call the police (never did have to, though!). 

It may take some time, but my experience has been that without that constant drama in both homes, the kids calm down a bit.  Way less stress.  Though mom still creates that in her own life, the kids are not caught between their folks by her stress.  At our house, we worked on creating good-feeling experiences, out door adventures, alone time with each of us (my SDs are close to me and like alone time with me, too).  They both had a counselor, and they went every other week for awhile. 

Then, when things calm down a bit with the kids and BPD mom (when the tummy aches stop, etc.), and after your DH has seen an attorney, then you can (if advised) pursue a better parenting plan using the courts.  But if just disengaging changes the dynamic enough, great, maybe you do not need legal action. 

Just to give you a little sense of how it went for us:  DH and his ex split up 8 years ago; she left him and filed for divorce a year later.  At that time, I started dating DH.  There was a huge amount of drama and suicide threats and all of that for the first 3 years after their divorce.  That died down, particularly with DH communicating in writing.  Then there was huge parental alienation and lots of one-sided rage.  DH had to engage in a custody battle though he had 50/50 as BPDmom wanted to leave the state.  After two horrible years of that, DH had secured a decent plan.  Mom was still very intense for a year and a half, but the kids were MUCH less affected by it.  Two years after the litigation, we had our first period of mostly friendliness with no real drama directed at us during the past 8 months.  Recently, BPF mom has been drinking a lot and has been aggressive with us again, but for the first time the kids seem more peaceful about it.  Mom has not made a suicide threat to the kids in about 3 or 4 years, at least that we know of.  It used to be a weekly if not daily occurrence.  So things are FAR less stressful for the kids, although mom is still extremely erratic and her life is full of chaos and drama, the kids are able to have a half time break from that kind of drama (we specialize in the way-too-much-to-do, stressed-out-parents kind of drama, no threat of death or dismemberment!). 

So things really do get better, but the more stable folks have to be willing to disengage, and focus on creating a healthy and stable alternative so the kids' nervous systems get a change to recover. 

[ShannonRT]

I totally agree about the disengagement and nothing would make me happier. I've felt all along that this would make life better for all of us. And we've tried that a few times, but it never lasts more than a day or two. She always seems to wiggle her way back in... . beginning with something about the kids, but then pushing all the right buttons to get DF fired up and soon enough, things are right back the way they were with the arguing and fighting.

We've also found that when DF ignores her or tries to disengage, she is just that more awful to the kids. If he tries to set a boundary or ignores her calls or texts, she just starts in on them, with hateful, passive/aggressive, guilt-ridden texts and calls to them, that she normally would be sending him. So he feels like he is deflecting some of her crap away from them by accepting her abuse. A few times, he has intentionally picked a fight with her to get her to leave them alone.

She's very co-dependent with her kids and feels the need to talk to them multiple times a day. There are no boundaries there. She calls them constantly when they are with us, gets upset if they don't answer, asks them what they eat for every meal and asks about every little thing we do. Of course, when we do fun things, we are always trying to "out-do" her and make her look bad and she says nasty things to them... . "I hope you're having FUN with your new FAMILY while I'm sitting at home ALONE."

We are getting married at the beach at the end of July. I've already told DF she WILL NOT be talking to the kids, or him, on our wedding day. Their phones will be turned off and put away. And on the other days, once in the morning and once at bedtime, AT MOST.

So, how do we disengage under these circumstances? How do we protect the kids and keep her from taking her anger out on them?

[Matt]

It is my experience with the BPD ex of my husband that conflict is her way of connecting, so she is not creating drama and conflict because she wants something, but because she wants the conflict itself.  It seems like it is about the birthday, or her anger, or something, but it is not, at least for us it really seems to be about the need to connect.

I think this is the key (at least in my relationship with a person with BPD, like Shannon's.)

And I think this implies something else... . while my ex needed the conflict - it was an important part of her life and she was reluctant to give it up - I was getting something out of it too.

I was getting drama - adrenaline - a feeling of being "in the right" and "saving" my kids.  It wasn't good for me, but at times, it felt good, and it distracted me from other mundane things like work and mowing the grass.

I think when we continue in a pattern that isn't good for anyone, it's because we're getting something out of it, and we may need to step back, and ask what is the long-term cost of that short-term fix... .

[ennie]

Of course, you and your mate know the most about your situation, and we here are only extrapolating based on our experience of what you write in in our different situations.  :)o you and your mate have a counselor with whom you could brainstorm, for yourselves?  My DH and I negotiated our current boundaries and parenting plan with the help of a number of professionals and friends.  

My suggestion is to set boundaries in a positive way using "I" language:  "I want to communicate in writing, as it is less stressful for me."  

Then, be consistent.  The BPD person in our life is like a kid.  You have to do it 20 times before she catches on.  And, any negative boundaries will incite her rebellion.  ":)o not call me" would never work.  

So here are the first three times on his part:  

DH (in writing):  I want to communicate in writing, as it is less stressful for me.  Is text or email better for you?

BPD mom calls, he does not answer.  

DH (in writing):  I totally understand that you want to talk about this.  I am happy to do it in a written form, where I can maintain perspective and keep my heart open.  

BPD mom calls, he does not answer.  

DH in writing:  I am willing to talk with you with a third party present so that you can understand why I am needing to communicate in a way that helps me to be reasonable and really hear you.  But if you want to discuss the vacation plan, I am ready to do that now in writing.  Please text me your idea and I will think about it and respond.  


Someone on this board mentioned the concept of "extinction bursts"--you know, what a plant does when it is about to die and makes lots of flowers, as in when you do not water it.  Or how a behavior intensifies after you stop rewarding it.  The hardest part for us about stopping this dynamic with BPD mom was that she then went to the kids... . but the truth was that she also went to the kids when DH rewarded it by engaging.  One of our worst nights was when BPD mom called and called until one of the kids picked up, she yelled at her, asked her to hand the phone to dad.  He took the phone, and all went to heck at our house, kids yelling, dad crying, me angry.  He agreed after that not to do it again... . because it worked, she tried, and he would tell his daughter, "Honey, I want to talk to mommy later."  Or would take the phone and say, "I am happy to communicate in writing."  And hang up.  

But now, she rarely goes through the kids in the way she used to.  For the first time, she went through a very upset negotiation with DH without actually telling the kids what was happening.  

And even when she does use the kids now, she has much less venom as she has not yelled at daddy for 2 hours before telling the kids.  

Your BPD person is different than mine, and neither of us know in which ways!

But I realized at one point that DH and I were bending over backwards to avoid upsetting her because we had bought into her story that we were upsetting her... . and when we stopped, there was no real change.  

And, there has been a REAL change in how much mom rants and raves to the kids now that she can write to him and get a response.  When she would call, or confront him in public, she never heard the response.  And the process of writing is calming to her, whereas venting increases her agitation.  So how mom acts with the kids is better and better.  

I think it is easy to fear the worst, then try for a little while, and when the result is bad, to quit.  Then, BPD mom has the message that if she just escalates, you guys will give in.  Intermittent rewards result in behavior persisting a lot longer than consistent rewards terminated entirely... . according to BF Skinner, anyway.  So if you are going to stop rewarding the drama, go cold turkey.  

And make sure that the kids know what is going on, in a kid way, and have support from a counselor, etc.  "I am going to start talking to mommy in writing, to help us get along better.  That might be hard on your mom at first. But I think it will help us to yell less."  

These are my two cents.  I really do not think that setting boundaries with BPD person results in the kids getting all of the negative stuff over the long term.  And then, if the kids come to you, you can work with them on that, you can both help them process it.  If they hear it and never speak to you about it, you do not get to help them.  We spent a few years talking with kids who came to us constantly about how hard DH was being on mom, how they wanted more time with mom, to live with mom, etc.  :)H was able to say, "I love you, and want time with you too.  And that is my and mommy's decision, one you do not have to worry about."  I would say, "You know, that is totally out of my hands, I am powerless too, but I trust that your mommy and daddy love you and will work that stuff out, even if they do not agree, and that by working together they will come up with the best solution, probably better than one you or I would suggest.  Let's just trust them to figure it out, and keep our distance!"  

Also, lots of validation:  

Child:  Why don't you let mommy take us on your weekend?  It is not fair!  Kids need their mommys!

Dad: I hear you, sweetie.  Sounds like it is hard for you that mom is upset about us having time together when she really wants to be with you.

Child:  No!  I am the one who wants to be with her!  She is not upset! (my SDs whitewash for mom, she is never upset, drunk, angry, bad in any way... . but now she is saying her feelings).

Dad:  That must be hard to not be with your mom when you want.  That is one of the hardest things about being a kid, to not have control over where you live or when you get to be with moms and dads... . they are at work when you need them, then in your room when you want them to go away!  You really can't do a thing with 'em!  

Child:  Yeah!  I mean, I love being with you, too, daddy, but I wish I could choose whenever I want.  

Dad:  I hear you.  There is so much stuff I wish I could choose that is out of my control!  But I really love you, and really want to have time with you, too.  

Once the feelings are coming from the child, you can work on validating, supporting their self-expression, helping them to own their part and their feelings rather than just defending mom, and then helping them to learn that it is okay to experience painful things and that we can work through them together.  We communicate often that we love the kids no matter how they feel, and that it is okay for them to be angry at us, to miss their mom, to not like how things are sometimes.  That they do not have a choice over where they live, that is mom and dad's choice and mom and dad put a lot of effort into making an agreement and that Dad is going to stick with that agreement until he and mom agree to a new one.  That they do not have a say in that, but that there are other areas where they have power.  

So having the kids come to you with things mommy says allows ways of helping them learn how to process that kind of intense feeling.  So it is not all bad.  And in our case, they were hearing it anyway, just before they were told to keep it all secret.  

[ForeverDad]

Are the parents' birthdays written into the orders the same as the children's birthdays?  In my county only the children's birthdays appear on the official holiday list.  I'm thinking that if the parents' birthdays are included then it makes it easy for the disordered parent to make it All About Himself/Herself.  It almost enables self-entitlement, not the intention but that's the effect as seen here.

I've found with my ex that every exception to the normal schedule can become an excuse for triggering, guilting and flaming out.  When I was in court late last year seeking majority time, no settlement was reached so we had hearings and I played recordings of ex trying to sabotage exchanges.  Almost every incident was connected to a holiday or other exception.  I got majority time (during the school year only, I presented issues about school) and little was said about me and much about mother disparaging father in the presence or hearing of our child.  The magistrate was peeved about that, though not peeved enough to end equal time during the summer.  I've concluded I'm the wrong gender to get favored treatment.

[ShannonRT]

I don't think their birthdays are included in the divorce agreement, but if she didn't throw a fit about this, she would just find something else to throw a fit about. If she can't find a "new" reason to start an argument, she finds a way to recycle an old one... . sometimes from 10 years ago