Not sure what to do

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

So I'm a bit unsure of what to do about things.  I'm divorced from my uBPD ex wife.  We have two little girls together (one a teen and one a pre-teen).  We have joint custody with 50/50 parenting time.

The problem is that my girls experience many of the things that they experienced during our marriage that my wife did to me or did to all of us.

Namely... .

-Parentifying the teenage girl.  Basically, just as my ex wife dumped all responsibilities on me and using blameshifting and gaslighting to keep me quiet and following the status quo, she does the same to my eldest daughter.  She makes her take care of her younger sister and all her cousins, since my ex is living temporarily at her sister's house.  She isn't really "there" for the kids.  My daughter says her mom is always either working or out partying or hanging out with or talking to or talking about her friends or her new boyfriend... . or checked out by laying in bed and/or sleeping all day.  This really upsets my eldest daughter.  My eldest daughter knows that in general it is pointless to complain to her mother about it because her mother will guilt-trip her or tell her a list of all the things she's done for her lately, to try to show her how she is exaggerating or over-reacting.  These are the same things she did to me for years when we were married.

-Being obsessed with her new boyfriend.  My wife did this to me at first... . very quick, intense, all-consuming beginning to the relationship.  I knew she did it with the guy before me, and I got to witness her do it with at least 3 other men during our 13 year marriage.  Highly sexual, completely obsessed and consumed with them.  I remember in 2010 when she was having an affair for months, claiming that he was her "gay friend" and yellng at me and blaming me for her misery whenever I complained about it because I sensed she was lying.  It was awful.  I have phone records that show during one month that she talked on the phone with this guy, because he lived far away, over 14,000 minutes.  That's an average of over 8 hours a day for a 30 day month.

She's doing this again.  My daughter told me tonight, "I don't like [John]" (not his real name, but will do fort thid discussion.  I asked her why, and she said, "because he's stealing away mommy.  mommy said she didn't even want a relationship with him but he persisted."  It is ridiculous how her mother lies and dodges blame.  I gently tried to tell my daughter that it really has nothing to do with "John".  It is just how mommy is.  She gets all caught up in it.  I didn't explain how I knew that (I didn't spill the beans about mommy's multiple affairs during our marriage, but I sure wanted to!).  

Anyway, I don't really know what to do about it.  Part of me wants to rescue my girls from their mother's foolish and hurtful neglect and abuse.  Part of me wants to just remain a close ally and resource to my girls so that they can make their OWN decision (and hence, not incur their mothers wrath and manipulation and parental alienation).  And part of me thinks I should communicate to her mother what she has been telling me.  But I fear that would only put the crosshairs on my daughter and on me.  My ex would gaslight and confuse my daughter, or make her feel even more unheard.  And she would attack me in passive-aggressive ways, such as telling me that my daughter allegedly complains about me, too, and do things to undermine my relationship with my daughter.

Any thoughts on how to handle this kind of thing?  I document everything, in case I ever need to go after custody.  

[OutOfEgypt]

So I'm a bit unsure of what to do about things.  I'm divorced from my uBPD ex wife.  We have two little girls together (one a teen and one a pre-teen).  We have joint custody with 50/50 parenting time.

The problem is that my girls experience many of the things that they experienced during our marriage that my wife did to me or did to all of us.

Namely... .

-Parentifying the teenage girl.  Basically, just as my ex wife dumped all responsibilities on me and using blameshifting and gaslighting to keep me quiet and following the status quo, she does the same to my eldest daughter.  She makes her take care of her younger sister and all her cousins, since my ex is living temporarily at her sister's house.  She isn't really "there" for the kids.  My daughter says her mom is always either working or out partying or hanging out with or talking to or talking about her friends or her new boyfriend... . or checked out by laying in bed and/or sleeping all day.  This really upsets my eldest daughter.  My eldest daughter knows that in general it is pointless to complain to her mother about it because her mother will guilt-trip her or tell her a list of all the things she's done for her lately, to try to show her how she is exaggerating or over-reacting.  These are the same things she did to me for years when we were married.

-Being obsessed with her new boyfriend.  My wife did this to me at first... . very quick, intense, all-consuming beginning to the relationship.  I knew she did it with the guy before me, and I got to witness her do it with at least 3 other men during our 13 year marriage.  Highly sexual, completely obsessed and consumed with them.  I remember in 2010 when she was having an affair for months, claiming that he was her "gay friend" and yellng at me and blaming me for her misery whenever I complained about it because I sensed she was lying.  It was awful.  I have phone records that show during one month that she talked on the phone with this guy, because he lived far away, over 14,000 minutes.  That's an average of over 8 hours a day for a 30 day month.

She's doing this again.  My daughter told me tonight, "I don't like [John]" (not his real name, but will do fort thid discussion.  I asked her why, and she said, "because he's stealing away mommy.  mommy said she didn't even want a relationship with him but he persisted."  It is ridiculous how her mother lies and dodges blame.  I gently tried to tell my daughter that it really has nothing to do with "John".  It is just how mommy is.  She gets all caught up in it.  I didn't explain how I knew that (I didn't spill the beans about mommy's multiple affairs during our marriage, but I sure wanted to!).  

Anyway, I don't really know what to do about it.  Part of me wants to rescue my girls from their mother's foolish and hurtful neglect and abuse.  Part of me wants to just remain a close ally and resource to my girls so that they can make their OWN decision (and hence, not incur their mothers wrath and manipulation and parental alienation).  And part of me thinks I should communicate to her mother what she has been telling me.  But I fear that would only put the crosshairs on my daughter and on me.  My ex would gaslight and confuse my daughter, or make her feel even more unheard.  And she would attack me in passive-aggressive ways, such as telling me that my daughter allegedly complains about me, too, and do things to undermine my relationship with my daughter.

Any thoughts on how to handle this kind of thing?  I document everything, in case I ever need to go after custody.  

[OutOfEgypt]

Not related to my initial post here, but still bothering me... .

Yesterday was the baby shower for the ex-girlfriend of our son (technically my step-son).  He got her pregnant during their short relationship, and she is due in a few weeks.  She doesn't live in this town.  She lived with me (well, my ex wife, too, during the short time when my uBPD ex wife lived with me and we attempted to reconcile), so her mail was still coming here.

Well, I just sit and I watch... . this girl told me how she thought my ex was "crazy" and all this, and I really don't know how much of that was a bunch of crap to get me to like her or what.  I just know that I observe my ex wife spreading her tentacles into these people -she has them firmly wrapped around her son and always has, and I'm watching her wrap them around this girl and her new baby (our grandchild).  She has the girl's mail (which was formerly still coming to my address, because she lived here a year ago) forwarded over to where *she* is staying, now... . I mean, that is sorta arbitrary... . why not to where the girl lives?  And my ex wife makes sure that I know she talks to this girl all the time to find out the latest.  To make a long story short, she is doing what she does... . taking total control of this girl and the situation so that everybody has to go through her... . she does all the planning for her, makes sure all communication goes through her, etc.  And this girl who told me she thought my ex was "crazy" just sits there and lets her.

I realize there is nothing I can do about it -I cannot control it.  But I've already sorta "lost" my son to her... . I'm tired of losing people to her.  I realize it is MY choice to basically drop off any close relatoinship with this girl (or my son) because they have become my ex wife's minion -another person she can control in order to get all the attention and adoration and devotion she craves, but I really cannot get close to someone again that can't really be gotten close to because of their blind devotion to this woman.  It is too painful.  I can't trust people who are in her grips like this.  I can't get close to them emotionally because they aren't really there... . they are stuck under her grip.  And it really saddens me.  I will never be able to compete (nor do I want to compete) with my ex, but she will make sure she takes total control of this girl and our new grandchild.  So, I feel like I've lost her before she is even born.

I can't explain this to the girl (the mom) because I don't trust what she would tell my ex.  I can picture her telling my ex and them both laughing together about how "insecure" I am and how *I* am the one who "competes".  Just sorta venting, but I'm really sick of this woman spreading her selfish, self-adulating tentacles into all of these areas of life.  It's like the only way I can keep my sanity is to cut off relationships with all of these other people.


The most utterly depressing thing about ever knowing this woman is that even after 13 years of horrific marriage with neglect, blame, gaslighting, affairs, and the utter destruction of my self-esteem, which I have painfully worked through for the past 4 years with a therapist, it feels as though I will *never* really be free from her.  She will always have her hand in the mix, manipulating and controlling something (or someone) in order to try to take them all to herself.  And I will constantly be put in the position where I watch it and realize "well, there goes another one."  I am seriously depressed.  I realize it won't last.  Eventually it will blow up because my ex cannot sustain any serious, committed, close relationship with anybody.  It is all about the thrill and excitement of getting the adoration and control up front, and then she moves on to someone else or the relationship blows up.  But it is still painful to experience when it constantly happens to people who are in my family circle.

[momtara]

I know how frustrating and hurtful it must be to watch her manipulate people over to her side.  Hopefully they do sense that she's kinda nuts.  As for whether to tell your daughter, I don't think you should bite your tongue all the time, but nor can you disparage her mother.  Other people here may have more specific advice about what to say to her.

Maybe a counselor for the kids would help, or a counselor for you, where you can bring the kid(s) from time to time?  Then you're not the one making all these decisions about how to cope. 

Congrats on the 50/50 time.  Hopefully you will make a better home they are happier to be in than your ex's.

[OutOfEgypt]

Thank you.  I believe many people DO see that she is nuts.  Adults in general, though she is always capable of finding people who are emotionally inept themselves, or who just like drama, who will follow her around and tell her how nice she is.

Hopefully you will make a better home they are happier to be in than your ex's.

I believe I am already.  My daughter's are very close to me, and I often find myself balancing trying to suport their mother's desire to have them and my daughters' frustration with their mom and desire to be over here with me.  As for my step son, he's long gone.  He hangs out with his mother all the time.  That is hard.  Hurts quite a bit.

I do my best to be a "listener" with my daughters rather than actively talking about how messed up she is.  Sometimes, however, when my daughter is complaining about her mom, I chime in!  Hard not to, although I always keep it as neutral and diplomatic and factual as possible:  "I know honey, I'm sorry.  That is just how mommy is.  She was the same toward me.  Still is"

My daughter remarked on her mommy's seemingly innate ability to garner attention and surround herself with people who think she is wonderful. I think it actually makes my daughter feel terrible about herself, because she thinks as a woman she should be able to do that but can't.  She thinks that most people don't want to hear her and don't think anything she says is important.  Hmm... .

I see a therapist, but it is individual therapy.  I want to find a counselor for my daughter, but I will have a hard time affording it for sure, because I pay and arm and a leg to their selfish mother.

[Matt]

I agree with Momtara - the right counselor for the girls could make a huge difference.

Ideally someone who has the education and experience to deal with a parent who has BPD.  But don't view the counselor as someone to take your side against the girls' mom;  view her as a resource for the girls.  You can ask counselors if they have experience with parents who have BPD, and you can ask them for "war stories" about BPD, without actually saying, "The girls' mother has BPD." (unless she has been diagnosed).

Working with the counselor, you can learn ways to help the girls by dealing with them, not their mother.  For example, you can get into the habit of validating their perceptions and feelings - super important for kids who have a parent with a psychological disorder.

I'd suggest "Stop Walking On Eggshells", "Understanding The Borderline Mother", and ":)ivorce Poison".

[ForeverDad]

It is good that you have equal time with your daughters, many fathers live with less.  The advantage of having separate homes and separate lives is that the children can see the difference between the two homes, that you're living a reasonably normal life.  This will translate into a greater likelihood of them choosing, when adults, more healthy relationships than they would have if you had stayed as a target or appeaser with your ex.  Thanks to you they have a decent shot at making better relationship choices.