Should I mention any of this to uBPDw

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

Although I am "staying" and therefore not actually co-parenting after the split, this seemed to be the most appropriate board for these questions.

I am wondering whether there is anything to gain by mentioning any of the following to my uBPDw.  The main possible gain that I can imagine is if the situation were to improve for our D3.  But I also worry that it could backfire and not help.

1.  D3 seems to be onto some of uBPDw's antics

I was about to take D3 out to do something I thought she would enjoy, when she suddenly spent what felt like a solid 5 minutes telling me she does not want to go, she wants to stay home, then changing her mind several times about wanting to go do something completely different (it was already too late in the day).  All the while being pretty argumentative, almost seeming to change her mind just to change what we had just discussed or agreed to, and complaining throughout.  And she kept walking away, making it hard to even talk with her.

I had been trying to validate her, and then I finally enforced a boundary, said I would not continue in this discussion, and that I would go do X, Y, and Z, and that I hope she will come with me.  Then she quickly switched to laughing and telling me she thought it was funny.  Apparently the last 5 minutes or so had been really good acting.  I said I'm glad she felt it was funny, I actually felt it was pretty annoying -- next time if she feels or wants something, just tell me directly and please stick around so that I can listen to her and we can discuss it.

I asked her where she got the idea to do that, thinking she might say she saw someone at preschool or maybe she saw it on some kids TV show that she had seen.  Her answer: "Mommy does that".  Frankly, she was pretty spot on with her reenactment.

It it worth mentioning this to my wife?  I was thinking "yes" because it might finally prompt her to get some help.  But the more I think about it, the more I'm thinking it is much more likely to backfire in any number of ways.


2.  uBPDw acting out at D3

When my wife accuses, invalidates, expresses severe anger, or shuts me out, I can now deal with it, after years of therapy and lots and lots of help from wonderful members here.  But when she does these things to our D3, they are formative and can be very detrimental.

My thoughts about bringing up specific incidents to my wife is in the hopes that she will finally open up to the fact that her actions can have a negative effect on our daughter, and choose to get help.

If I bring it up, I think I can pinpoint a recent event or two that may seem relatively minor to my wife, so as not to trigger her too much.  But for this one too, I am on the fence as to whether I should bring it up.  In the past, a few attempts were met with anger, denial, and/or attacks.  I think she may have actually made changes for at least 1 or 2, but that certainly has not been the norm.  Thoughts?


3.  D3 avoided a "mother" interaction

I was playing a preschool-appropriate Dora the Explorer computer game with D3.  We were exploring Dora's house -- you click on a room in the house, you go into it, and play games.  D3 had been very curious about each room so far.  Then we got into a room where Dora's mom was sitting in front of the computer.  There seemed to be other interesting things there.  As soon as I mentioned "Look, that must be Dora's mommy."  Immediately, D3 seemed to tense up and asked me to help her leave the room quickly.

This one is an easy one.  I see no reason to tell her.  But the fact that it happened on the same day as #1 and #2 made me wonder, and question, what I should bring up to my uBPDw.

What do you think?

[zaqsert]

Although I am "staying" and therefore not actually co-parenting after the split, this seemed to be the most appropriate board for these questions.

I am wondering whether there is anything to gain by mentioning any of the following to my uBPDw.  The main possible gain that I can imagine is if the situation were to improve for our D3.  But I also worry that it could backfire and not help.

1.  D3 seems to be onto some of uBPDw's antics

I was about to take D3 out to do something I thought she would enjoy, when she suddenly spent what felt like a solid 5 minutes telling me she does not want to go, she wants to stay home, then changing her mind several times about wanting to go do something completely different (it was already too late in the day).  All the while being pretty argumentative, almost seeming to change her mind just to change what we had just discussed or agreed to, and complaining throughout.  And she kept walking away, making it hard to even talk with her.

I had been trying to validate her, and then I finally enforced a boundary, said I would not continue in this discussion, and that I would go do X, Y, and Z, and that I hope she will come with me.  Then she quickly switched to laughing and telling me she thought it was funny.  Apparently the last 5 minutes or so had been really good acting.  I said I'm glad she felt it was funny, I actually felt it was pretty annoying -- next time if she feels or wants something, just tell me directly and please stick around so that I can listen to her and we can discuss it.

I asked her where she got the idea to do that, thinking she might say she saw someone at preschool or maybe she saw it on some kids TV show that she had seen.  Her answer: "Mommy does that".  Frankly, she was pretty spot on with her reenactment.

It it worth mentioning this to my wife?  I was thinking "yes" because it might finally prompt her to get some help.  But the more I think about it, the more I'm thinking it is much more likely to backfire in any number of ways.


2.  uBPDw acting out at D3

When my wife accuses, invalidates, expresses severe anger, or shuts me out, I can now deal with it, after years of therapy and lots and lots of help from wonderful members here.  But when she does these things to our D3, they are formative and can be very detrimental.

My thoughts about bringing up specific incidents to my wife is in the hopes that she will finally open up to the fact that her actions can have a negative effect on our daughter, and choose to get help.

If I bring it up, I think I can pinpoint a recent event or two that may seem relatively minor to my wife, so as not to trigger her too much.  But for this one too, I am on the fence as to whether I should bring it up.  In the past, a few attempts were met with anger, denial, and/or attacks.  I think she may have actually made changes for at least 1 or 2, but that certainly has not been the norm.  Thoughts?


3.  D3 avoided a "mother" interaction

I was playing a preschool-appropriate Dora the Explorer computer game with D3.  We were exploring Dora's house -- you click on a room in the house, you go into it, and play games.  D3 had been very curious about each room so far.  Then we got into a room where Dora's mom was sitting in front of the computer.  There seemed to be other interesting things there.  As soon as I mentioned "Look, that must be Dora's mommy."  Immediately, D3 seemed to tense up and asked me to help her leave the room quickly.

This one is an easy one.  I see no reason to tell her.  But the fact that it happened on the same day as #1 and #2 made me wonder, and question, what I should bring up to my uBPDw.

What do you think?

[OutOfEgypt]

Hi my friend.  I'm in the same boat with a lot of this.  My eldest daughter knows and tells me that/asks me about... .

-her mother is a "drama queen"

-her mother always needs to be the center of attention.

-why does mommy not get along with so many people, such as gramma?  Gramma is "Sweet".  What is mommy's problem?

-her mother is wrapped up completely into her new boyfriend... . but thought it was the boyfriend's fault since her mother basically told her it was.

-her mother dumps all parental responsibility on her when it comes to her younger sister and her cousins (her mom lives temporarily at her sister's house)

-her mother is constantly checked out.  She might do some things with my girls here or there, but my eldest daughter tells me that mommy basically works and parties and hangs out or talks to or talks about her boyfriend and sleeps all day, while pawning off the kids onto my eldest daughter or her own sister.  This is, incidentally, exactly what my ex did to me.  I did *everything* while she did anything she wanted and was completely checked out.

-her mother takes no responsibility -when you try to tell her, she has an answer for everything about how you are exaggerating or wrong.

I know my daughter is STILL upset about Mother's day.  My eldest daughter was with me from the night before, and her mom called in the morning, eager to have my eldest come over to see her for Mother's Day.  Well, after I dropped her off, she later told me that mommy dumped her little sister and the cousins on her and told her to take them to the park while mommy laid out "tanning" in the back yard.  That was how Mother's Day afternoon went -no mother-daughter time.  Mommy just needed a babysitter.  Pretty crappy thing to do, yet she does not see that she did anything wrong.  Of course, my ex made it sound like they were going to have a fun BBQ over there.  Guess not.

I've thought about telling my uBPDexw this stuff, and I have mentioned some things in the past, but I don't know if it is even worth it because it may just paint a target on my head and my daughter's head.  I'll be attacked.  She'll manipulate some situation to make me look bad or lie about me to people she wants to sink her hooks into more deeply.  And she'll gaslight my daughter even more or do things to guilt-trip her into ignoring her feelings.

I wish I knew what to do, my friend.  Or better... . I just wish these people would up and go away and let us live our lives in peace.

[Matt]

Focus on your daughter, not her mom.

Mentioning any of this to her mom probably won't work and might backfire in a big way.

Listen carefully to your daughter, and validate her perceptions and feelings.  "It sounds like you are feeling a little sad now." and "So when you saw that you were afraid?".

Kids who grow up in a home with an adult who has BPD often talk about how the other parent didn't listen to what they were going through or told them, "I'm sure your mom didn't say that." and "You shouldn't be mad at your mom!" - the opposite of validation.

[zaqsert]

OutOfEgypt -- It does sound familiar.  Sorry you've been going through that.  Although it seems great that your kids can talk about it with you.

Matt -- Thank you for the excellent advice.  After reading The Power of Validation, that all makes so much more sense to me now than it did before.  I will focus on my daughter and on validating her perceptions and feelings.  If her mom is ever going to do something about her own issues, I need to remind myself again that she is the only one who can do something about it, if she ever realizes and chooses to.  I can't make her, and it is so much more likely to backfire if I were even just to try.

Thanks again!

[Matt]

The first time I ever heard of BPD, it was our (fourth) marriage counselor who told me, talking just to me when my wife wasn't there.  She told me that it would be more likely that my wife would accept help if nobody labeled her "BPD", because the label would probably cause her to reject help.  And of everybody in the world, the one person she would be least receptive to, telling her "I think you might have BPD", was me.

It was super-tempting to tell her, "Ms. MC told me she thinks you have BPD.  So you should get therapy."  But looking back on it, I'm sure it wouldn't have worked, and would probably have made things worse for everybody.

[zaqsert]

Thanks, Matt.  It does seem to be good advice.  I tried to encourage my wife to get therapy in the past, before I really knew about BPD.  It was short-lived, and it seemed pretty evident that she didn't really get into it.

What I was considering was to bring up a single, specific event whenever it might be appropriate, while staying away from any labeling (BPD or anything else).  Ideally a "low impact" event that is less likely to trigger her.  For example, this weekend our D3 wanted something.  My wife said no.  It wasn't too bad a decision, so I supported it.  D3 cried.  I worked on validating her feelings.  Then my wife steps in and starts telling her to focus on the positive.  Now that I recognize that as invalidating, I went right back to validating D3.

After the fact, I could approach my wife privately and mention how that is a good time to validate.  And that what she said, while well-intentioned, ends up being invalidating.  I have recommended The Power of Validation to my wife several times.  She has yet to start reading it.  But at least she knows that I believe strongly in validation.

Like this, there are quite a few others.  This one feels like it could yield a conversation that might be ok.  If not, at least she might listen to it.  Others, I believe I should not get anywhere near, such as telling my wife not to act out in anger or not to storm off in anger, leaving D3 alone.

[Matt]

I never had any luck with anything like that, but when I was married, I didn't know much about how to do it well.

Have you read "Stop Walking On Eggshells"?  A lot of it is about how to communicate with someone who has BPD... .

[zaqsert]

Good point.  I have read it.  It was very helpful.  It has been more than a year though, so I will brush up on its recommendations as well as the communication lessons from the Staying board here.  Thanks, Matt!  Maybe a DEARMAN is is order.  I'll go brush up on the tools first.  Then if I try, I will be sure to keep it to something that she is likely to be aware enough about and more likely to be able to do something about.

[ForeverDad]

I've thought about telling my uBPDexw this stuff, and I have mentioned some things in the past, but I don't know if it is even worth it because it may just paint a target on my head and my daughter's head.  I'll be attacked.  She'll manipulate some situation to make me look bad or lie about me to people she wants to sink her hooks into more deeply.  And she'll gaslight my daughter even more or do things to guilt-trip her into ignoring her feelings.

I wish I knew what to do, my friend.  Or better... . I just wish these people would up and go away and let us live our lives in peace.

If you are dealing with a severe case of BPD or other acting-out PD, then trying to reason with her would be like waving a red flag in front of her, she would overreact and even counterattack since that is how it would feel to her.  If she is of the far more passive sort and not that oppositional or controlling, you might find good times now and then to bring the subject up.  But it still might be perceived as an attack or blaming which she may do anything not to face.  So use your judgment.

You mentioned you are 'staying' but she's not in therapy or improving her behaviors. Be aware then you you are probably only 'staying for now' because a typical pattern for many disordered people is to keep pushing at boundaries more and more over time.  Let's hope it doesn't happen in your case but if it does, then remember, you have a right and obligation to your child to review prior decisions periodically and determine if additional action is necessary.

If the conflict is relatively low key or no high conflict allegations are made, you may be able to keep a foot in both worlds and not topple off.  Maybe.  However, if it becomes unmanageable, you know what comes first... . the children.  Your spouse is an adult, yes a more imperfect one than most, but still an adult, she's responsible for herself.  But the children are minors, they need not just validation and protection but also good examples.  So if she sees you living as a tip-toeing appeaser or enabler of poor behaviors, then that aspect won't be a good example for her when she is grown and seeks out her own adult relationships.

[livednlearned]

When my wife accuses, invalidates, expresses severe anger, or shuts me out, I can now deal with it, after years of therapy and lots and lots of help from wonderful members here.  But when she does these things to our D3, they are formative and can be very detrimental.

It's wonderful that you have a copy of Power of Validation and can use it with your D so young! I didn't discover that book (and validation) until my son was 8, and it made a big difference. It was a complete life-changer for me too. After your wife expresses severe anger to you, how does D3 respond? Do you have any conversations with her about it after the fact?

I was playing a preschool-appropriate Dora the Explorer computer game with D3.  We were exploring Dora's house -- you click on a room in the house, you go into it, and play games.  D3 had been very curious about each room so far.  Then we got into a room where Dora's mom was sitting in front of the computer.  There seemed to be other interesting things there.  As soon as I mentioned "Look, that must be Dora's mommy."  Immediately, D3 seemed to tense up and asked me to help her leave the room quickly.

This one is an easy one.  I see no reason to tell her.  But the fact that it happened on the same day as #1 and #2 made me wonder, and question, what I should bring up to my uBPDw.

I agree with everyone else that it's best to focus on your D and helping her handle the behavior in healthy ways instead of trying to get your wife to change. It's difficult for parents -- BPD or not -- to accept criticism about our parenting. If your wife isn't following your lead, reading books you've recommended, or gone to therapy, it isn't likely she'll be open to feedback about her effects on D3, especially coming from you, and especially if you have a stronger bond with your D than she does.

In addition to validation, I found it was important to have age-appropriate conversatons about what my son was experiencing. He really needed to release some built-up pressure about his dad's behaviors. It can be pretty confounding for an adult to understand what's going on, and kids even more so. I don't know if you did this or not, but one example might be talking to your D about how she tensed when she saw the mom sitting in front of a computer. ":), I noticed that you were relaxed and happy when you were exploring all the other rooms, but then you saw this room with a mom looking at the computer. Then your body got tense and you didn't want to stay here anymore. Do you feel worried when your body tenses like that?"

Something to help her link her desire to retreat to her body language to what she is reacting to.

To help your D through these early formative years, it will really help if you show her how to put the pieces of the puzzle together. I don't know how common it is for kids with BPD parents to be highly somatic, and there are lots of variables that probably impact the ways kids develop (their own genetics, the coping skills of both the BPD parent and the non-BPD parent, counseling, severity and comorbidity of the symptoms, etc.), but it does seem like kids need help making sense of the whole picture in very explicit ways when they have a BPD parent.

It's probably benign that your D wanted to leave the room, but because she has a BPD parent, it's also possible that she is learning to stuff negative feelings. That's part of what we're doing when we validate -- to help her acknowledge that how she feels is real, to give her a stable sense of self. It's also important to help kids see what they do when they experience their feelings.

Let us know how things go with your D -- she's lucky to have you. 

[zaqsert]

Finally getting back to this... .   Thanks so much for your responses.

You mentioned you are 'staying' but she's not in therapy or improving her behaviors. Be aware then you you are probably only 'staying for now' because a typical pattern for many disordered people is to keep pushing at boundaries more and more over time.  Let's hope it doesn't happen in your case but if it does, then remember, you have a right and obligation to your child to review prior decisions periodically and determine if additional action is necessary.

I feel like this speaks to me pretty directly too.

After your wife expresses severe anger to you, how does D3 respond? Do you have any conversations with her about it after the fact?

Her response varies from curious ("What did mommy say?  Why did she say that?" to avoiding to acting really silly as if to distract us or herself.  I don't often have conversations about it after the fact.  Now I see that I should.

In addition to validation, I found it was important to have age-appropriate conversatons about what my son was experiencing. He really needed to release some built-up pressure about his dad's behaviors. It can be pretty confounding for an adult to understand what's going on, and kids even more so. I don't know if you did this or not, but one example might be talking to your D about how she tensed when she saw the mom sitting in front of a computer. ":), I noticed that you were relaxed and happy when you were exploring all the other rooms, but then you saw this room with a mom looking at the computer. Then your body got tense and you didn't want to stay here anymore. Do you feel worried when your body tenses like that?"

Something to help her link her desire to retreat to her body language to what she is reacting to.

To help your D through these early formative years, it will really help if you show her how to put the pieces of the puzzle together. I don't know how common it is for kids with BPD parents to be highly somatic, and there are lots of variables that probably impact the ways kids develop (their own genetics, the coping skills of both the BPD parent and the non-BPD parent, counseling, severity and comorbidity of the symptoms, etc.), but it does seem like kids need help making sense of the whole picture in very explicit ways when they have a BPD parent.

It's probably benign that your D wanted to leave the room, but because she has a BPD parent, it's also possible that she is learning to stuff negative feelings. That's part of what we're doing when we validate -- to help her acknowledge that how she feels is real, to give her a stable sense of self. It's also important to help kids see what they do when they experience their feelings.

These are some great points.  While I had been trying to validate her feelings, I wasn't really helping her to put the puzzle pieces together.  Now that I am more conscious about this, I hope I will be able to help her with it more often.  I started to try it on a few occasions over the past couple of weeks since you wrote this.

In the past week or so, I noticed our D getting really mad about a couple of things.  At first I worried that her angry rages (one silent rage and one all out rage) seemed way too much like her mother's.  Actually, I still do.  But then this evening it hit me that maybe she is letting it out around me because she feels safe and we have been discussing feelings openly.  In reality, who knows.  But it did strike me that although the first one took a little while to pass (eventually it did, and later on we were able to talk about her feelings and the reality of the situation), the second one passed pretty quickly.

Thanks again for a great set of suggestions!

Let us know how things go with your D -- she's lucky to have you. 

Thanks, livednlearned!  I'm really luck to have her!

[livednlearned]

In the past week or so, I noticed our D getting really mad about a couple of things.  At first I worried that her angry rages (one silent rage and one all out rage) seemed way too much like her mother's.  Actually, I still do.  But then this evening it hit me that maybe she is letting it out around me because she feels safe and we have been discussing feelings openly.  In reality, who knows.  But it did strike me that although the first one took a little while to pass (eventually it did, and later on we were able to talk about her feelings and the reality of the situation), the second one passed pretty quickly.

That sounds right -- you're the consistent, stable parent who isn't going to retaliate if D3 gets angry, and that feels safe. I do think it's important to make a distinction between anger and aggression, tho. If D is harming herself or you, she has to understand that it's ok to feel angry, we all feel that way from time to time, but aggression is not ok. It's also important that when she's in a silent rage, you don't reward her by becoming even more attentive. If she is steaming mad, let her be steaming mad. Most adults who get angry like that need a time out, not more attention. My son needed help with that when he was in his later elementary years when things really started to hit the fan. I didn't understand any of this when S12 was little and he had a really rough stretch in elementary school. He was either stuffing his feelings or being flooded by them, and that made it difficult for him to keep friendships.

One tricky thing about raising an emotionally healthy child is that your D's developing secure sense of self will probably begin to rattle your wife and may create more problems between them. Kids with two healthy parents have their healthy emotional responses and behaviors reinforced by both parents. Kids with a mentally ill parent are more likely to feel confused that one parent is safe and one isn't.

It might be worth talking to a therapist about this stuff -- I'm not sure what the age-appropriate response would be with a 3 year old, but being candid with S12 about his dad's behavior was critical to his healing. For example, if your wife is mean to D3 for asserting what she wants, and it hurts D3's feelings or makes her feel confused and scared, you might validate how she feels, ask her why she thinks her mom did that, and then support the truth: it was wrong for mommy to scream like that. This  last part -- stating the truth -- is what a therapist will be able to help you with.

A lot of parents also tend to say things like, "I know mommy did those things but she really does love you." Avoid saying that! It's super confusing for kids and really messes them up. They grow up thinking that mean behavior is loving. It's not. It also tells them to doubt what she's feeling. "It sure doesn't feel like mommy loves me when she's mean like that." Then an adult comes along and says, "No really, this is what love looks like. Mean and angry."

I'm still trying to sort this stuff out with my son. The earlier you get a handle on this, the better for both you and your D. You're going to be modeling the healthy behavior of two people, both mom AND dad, which is hard! Being healthy while coparenting with someone who is mentally ill can be extremely tough -- because healthy behavior (boundaries, being assertive, being vulnerable) creates all kinds of conflict.

Hang in there and be your great self   

[ForeverDad]

A lot of parents also tend to say things like, "I know mommy did those things but she really does love you." Avoid saying that! It's super confusing for kids and really messes them up. They grow up thinking that mean behavior is loving. It's not. It also tells them to doubt what she's feeling. "It sure doesn't feel like mommy loves me when she's mean like that." Then an adult comes along and says, "No really, this is what love looks like. Mean and angry."

This is called Validation of observations and of proper behaviors.  Of course, worlds better than uninformed or mistaken invalidation.

As much as divorce is a blow to the historical family arrangement, a side benefit (when the other parent's mental health issues are the trigger) is that you as the reasonably normal parent can establish a separate, stable, relatively normal home environment so the children have a good example of parenting and other relationships for a regular portion of their childhood, something that was not possible when the parents were together.

[Matt]

As much as divorce is a blow to the historical family arrangement, a side benefit (when the other parent's mental health issues are the trigger) is that you as the reasonably normal parent can establish a separate, stable, relatively normal home environment so the children have a good example of parenting and other relationships for a regular portion of their childhood, something that was not possible when the parents were together.

Yes, and for me this was a surprisingly positive experience.  I thought of it as the "new normal".

I was completely unprepared - we separately unexpectedly.  I decided I needed to establish a new home quickly, so things would be stable soon, and that the home should be close to our family home, where my stbX still lived, and that it should seem normal to the kids.

I found a place and took a little furniture from the family home - stuff that wasn't being used - and found other stuff at garage sales, etc.  Within a week or so it was pretty livable, and the kids had everything they were used to.  I focused on making it a quiet, pleasant, happy place, and that went very well - without my wife's rages, accusations, etc., life was good.

A ton of disruption for the shortest possible time, and then a stable "new normal"... .