In front of my eyes. What can I do?

[DrJones]

Hello

I would like some help to know how to act in a wise way in order to keep on enduring. My wife has a cyber-lover (as I told in one of my posts). Now she is acting in a very curious way. After some talks she believes that it is a matter of the past. She doesn't speak about him and even put photos of we two on the website she uses to talk to him. I must say that she is not consciously lying, I know for sure.

On the other hand, she connects her phone to the Internet to chat to him as if I were blind. At home she wastes hours talking to him, but in the very same moment that she hasn't got Internet, she forgets about that person and becomes normal again. To be true I don't know whether saying that I know it all (which would imply a new "war" against me) or simply let it go (which implies a war within myself, since I feel stupid).

Please, I need some help. Thanks!

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Love Is Not Enough]

What you described is her issue with object constancy. When she is not talking to this guy he does not exist. It is common with pwBPD and they must struggle and work harder to maintain their most important relationships (real ones) when we are not around (even if it just being at work). Most likely he is just a diversion and she uses him to make you jealous. Which as you can see is working and she is getting what she wants. More attention from you. It is a hit to your self-esteem as it shows she does not respect you, but try not to take it too personally. It really has very little to do with you and more to do with her own insecurities and the disorder itself. As long as she does not meet up with this person it should be ok and will probably fizzle out on its own.

You have a couple of options. You can set a boundary about this behavior use SET to explain how it is damaging the rs. You can also step out of the drama by ignoring it and see if it fizzles out on its own. Either way I would set a very firm boundary about her meeting this person. If she decides to meet with him then you will not continue the rs. This is for your own protection and will show her that you are serious about the rs.

Either way read all the tools here and really focus on being the best you that you can be while stepping out of the drama. Take care of yourself and be confident. Confidence comes through working the tools. Keep reading and good luck.

[Stalwart]

My first concern and interest in a situation like this would be who is he? What do these online conversation have in them for him, his motivation and what is he seeking out of it?

It doesn't sound as though you've discussed this much with her. Do you have online conversations or correspondences with other females? Is it something that you consider within the boundaries of acceptable for your relationship?

I don't find ignoring a situation that's worrisome to you a good answer at all. Ignoring a problem can only lead to more. Have you thought about talking to her about this correspondance and setting out the fact that double standards aren't acceptable, that if she has online friends is it OK if you do. Remember though she may not consider that what she is doing is wrong in any sense so I'd tread carefully on assinging any kind of wrongdoing until I felt out the waters and even then I'd tread those waters carefully. Boundaries aren't easy to set or maintain but they're necessary if you're going to be able to be at all comfortable in the relationship and of course double-standards just aren't acceptable regardless of which party doesn't find harm in them. They aren't right.

I wish you luck with this, but for myself I'd pursuit the reasons and bring it into the focus of attention in order to solve it prior to it becoming a real problem. Be gentle and considerate not to berate or judge her actions harshly. she may not consider them wrong and on the other hand it doesn't surprize me at all that in his absence she has no thoughts of him at all. That's typical in some cases. It may not mean as much to her as you think and he may not either. One thing for certain she's getting something out the correspondance and so is he. What is that? That will determine what actions your really need to take.

Hope this helps and I hope you find your way through this.

[an0ught]

Hi DrJones,

your situation is a difficult one - dammed if you do and dammed if your don't.

Right now - what should you do? Educate yourself - play around with the tools - get a deeper understanding with a bit of trial and error and again educate yourself. Understanding the situation is by no means trivial and while your focus is on her it is worth devoting some of that attention to yourself and understanding yourself better. In the end you only control yourself and by that you influence others.

Your situation with the virtual affair is pretty unique but once you exchange virtual with emotional you will find plenty of postings on emotional affairs on this board (just a hint for your research). My personal opinion on these emotional affairs is that they are probably as damaging to us as physical affairs but lack the tangible evidence that allow us focus our anger. In some sense they make us even more helpless and isolated. 

Turning the situation around will take time and will involve risk and pain. There are different strategies imaginable. It is worth keeping in mind that you have not only to turn around the affair situation but also rebuild a satisfying relationship with your wife. In some sense opposing the affair may be the easy part when the other part is done.

At the risk of repeating myself - study the tools especially boundaries and validation. It matters a lot to have a solid understanding and practical experience.

A first step could protecting yourself from hurt. When she is communicating with blatant disregard for you - remove yourself. Use SET to explain once that you are feeling hurt and can't stand it. Don't expect telling her to change much though. Telling her is just providing some explanatory background on your action i.e. trying to minimize exposure to her disrespectful behavior. Telling her decreases the risk and magnitude of reactionary escalation from her side when you leave.

Other steps are boundaries to minimize abuse. At the moment you are subject to being split black while the affair is split white. Being able to navigate between the extremes is of course perfect to balance emotions but that particular set-up is leaving you short changed. See all the workshops of time-outs.

Last but not least plenty of validation. As you described your life it has been quite turbulent over the past years and is not in a good shape. Without judging and blaming spelling out negative truths and emotions when appropriate is very important (Validating positive emotions or simple facts of life is also important but at this time you likely lack much opportunities.). Validation connects, grounds, heals and counters the centrifugal and separating forces of boundaries.

Hang in there and keep posting  ,

a0

[formflier]

 

Dr Jones,

Hang in there.

You've got excellent advice... .

My only piece that I would add is that I would not be in a rush to start using the limit tools until you are well educated on them.

While I'm not a fan of ignoring the on-line affair.  Trying to set a limit on it... . and then backing down is WORSE than doing nothing. 

Others can explain why much better than I. 

So... . keep sucking in knowledge and asking questions.

[Fanie]

Somebody posted then following:

   Do NOT condone unacceptable behavior

     if you do, it becomes a norm

Setting boundaries are the answer - but practically difficult to implement

Good Luck

Stay with us

[DrJones]

Thank you all!

It is nice to feel for the first time in so many years that people understand me, that I was not such a kind of alien (well, at least not as much as my wife says  ). It is difficult to become a psychologist in such a short time, but believe me, your advice and support is already helping me. 

[Fanie]

Keep reading

Keep posting

Become a T 

Only then you will be able to make meaningful

decisions

We all learn from each other - daily

[an0ught]

Become a T  

I guess it is clear to most of us that this was said with tongue in check. Just for the record as newer members may not fully understand it:

1. Building up psychological knowledge is useful.

2. Even more important is to actually being able to put it into practice on a daily basis i.e. skills.

3. Knowing ourself is critical.

4. Understanding our partners can be important at times. At other times it is enough to know ourselves.

5. Not becoming the T of our partners is vital

Why do we not want to become Ts of our partners? Besides of ethical concerns there are important practical concerns: We are part of the system and also the problem. Trying to take more responsibility for our partner is coupling ourselves tighter when we actually should detach more from the drama. Being clear about our values, their priorities and boundaries helps us to use our knowledge responsibly and effectively.

The line at times is clear and at other times is not so clear. Drama intensely experienced up close and in many cases some degree of depression on our side twists our own perception. Our actions and words are inevitably affecting our partner. Posting on the board and feedback from our peers is keeping us a more objective and on the right side of the line.

[formflier]

Become a T  

Drama intensely experienced up close and in many cases some degree of depression on our side twists our own perception.

Well said!  I'm one of those guys that "knows" they are right... . and... . I usually am.  Those of you that have followed my story know that I have been recording lots of stuff. 

By and large they back up my remembered version.  However... . not always.  I've not come across any gross distortions... . but times that I remember "being calm" and not yelling or even raising my voice... . the recording didn't back me up.  Maybe I wasn't full on yelling... . but I was definitely triggered.

Why do  I bring this up... . ?  I've been thinking a lot about "being part of the problem".  Sure... . the BPD is a BIG problem... . but an "incorrect" response to that can be devastating as well. 

So... . "working on yourself" can be just as valuable as getting the pwBPD in some sort of T.

[DrJones]

Hello again.

Well, I have some news about my story and (if you don't mind), I need some extra-help.

Well, the cyber-affair of my wife is too complicated for me. She has written to that man several long and serious letters (I have read some although my wife doesn't know it) telling him to end the story. The following morning she becomes very happy and tells me that now it is over and that he will not write back. Nevertheless she doesn't block her email address and after just a couple of days... . "let's start at the very beginning... . " (as Julie Andrews sang).

In fact I feel more and more distant from my wife. I have currently the role of "2nd husband" (the 1st one is the computer) and she begs me not "to hurt the other"  with things such as telling the affair to his family or wife because he is weak and "everything has already finished among them" (BTW, I don't know any of that family and I have never been in his country, so it would be a little bit difficult).

I know that she wants to break up, and sometimes she believes that she has done it, but the reality is quite different. Often (like today) she cannot understand that I KNOW it (and she knows that I know it) and that I feel bad about it. She asks: why are you so blue? Why don't you speak?

Isn't it obvious? I wonder. We have discussed it 1,000,000 times in the last weeks!

Any idea?

[Fanie]

Dr Jones

We are in the same boat

My uBPDw is on her phone every night 2 hours around the house

talking on her cell to , who knows?

Its VERY disturbing to me, Very

(she speaks in her native language that I cant understand)

She had/has an affair up to a few weeks back, being out of the house over weekends

She is "back" but now the phone calls

Yeah, feels like the 2nd husband - and she seems to nat care one little bit

When I asked her who, she will give me a name of a lady friend of hers

I asked her if I should move out - she said no, we must just take it slow ?

Painful... .

[Fanie]

Slow  ... . whereto ... .

[DrJones]

Hi Fanie!

Terrible to see what happens but good to see that we are not the most stupid husbands on Earth.   The worse is that after being on the phone, chatting on the Internet they arrive and ask: "What's the matter? Are you sad? Why? Can I do something for you?"

... . just shocking

[DrJones]

Yesterday I had a big big battle with my BPDwife. I simply was not able to keep on pretending to be stupid and looking to the other side any time that her lover (or should I say her new magical-object-which-automaticaly-brings-happiness-to-her-terrible-life-despite-her-stupid-husband?) wrote to her.

It was the second time that I told her that "and" (he and I) is not an option. It must be "or". She wrote to that man to finish their cyber-relationship. She felt 'happy' about it. But he wrote again, as an octopus and my wife (obviously) fell again.

I decided to play hard at once. I couldn't stand it. I told her that I understand that she is working to be a good wife, to finish that madness with the other man, but... . I was fed up with him. I was ready to call his church (he is supposedly very religious) to tell it to its people. my wife begged me not to do it for not ruining his life (mine is not that important... . ). We wrote an email each to say what I had decided. Any other contact (letter, sms, etc.) with my wife and I'd go directly to his church. By now there is no answer (however, I believe that he will try again as soon as he thinks I do not pay attention).

Now my wife's hatred towards me has increased by a-lot% and she cannot understand why I behaved like that. She asks me again why I do not get divorced, because I have the right. When I say that I am not the one to run away and that she is free to get divorced too, she just keeps silence (as she has always done for years when I answer the very same sentence).

well, well... . More news later

[ziniztar]

A while ago I read somewhere that when someone is having an affair or looking attention elsewhere, they're obviously not getting it in the relationship.

Of course it's not realistic to give the amount of attention that a pwBPD can ask. But there are ways to make them feel desired, wanted, loved, understood, appreciated for who they are, without having to compromise your own needs.

I've really focused on validation and it has helped tremendously. If you can, find the time to watch Alan Fruzetti's video on validation in BPD families. Changed my outlook on validation, changed my relationship, changed my life.

[formflier]

Now my wife's hatred towards me has increased by a-lot% and she cannot understand why I behaved like that. She asks me again why I do not get divorced, because I have the right. When I say that I am not the one to run away and that she is free to get divorced too, she just keeps silence (as she has always done for years when I answer the very same sentence).

well, well... . More news later

Hang in there... . on the divorce piece... . I have had to play the very same... . maddening game.

She demands that I end the relationship... . and get "madder" that I don't want to or refuse.

I never once have mentioned divorce to her... . I never will.

I understand that I can't "hold" her in the relationship... . she can walk out the door if she wants... . but I refuse to let her "make me" kick her out... .  

Very odd and frustrating... . and illogical behavior.

But... . I do understand it now.

[ziniztar]

Now my wife's hatred towards me has increased by a-lot% and she cannot understand why I behaved like that. She asks me again why I do not get divorced, because I have the right. When I say that I am not the one to run away and that she is free to get divorced too, she just keeps silence (as she has always done for years when I answer the very same sentence).

That's good. You're standing up for yourself, your values. In a twisted way, when you weren't doing that, she probably thought lower of you as you were letting her get away with it. When boundaries are being enforced (like you did), it's normal to expect a so called exstinxtion burst (read about that in The Lessons). Keep up your values, and she will accept them after a while. Prepare to be tested - don't give in. The storm will calm.

[formflier]

I have weathered a few extinction bursts... . and made it through them ok.

However... . they were not any fun while in the middle of them.

[ydrys017]

Is there a link to an explanation of 'extinction burst'?

[DrJones]

Hi all!

Thank you so much about... . everything, really. As you predicted she is testing me, since right now she is very disregulated. She keeps on telling how bad I am for trying to hurt her lover (who, according to her words, is totally innocent). I have repeated 100 times that I will not do anything about this affair, but 20 minutes later... . same story again and again.

A few minutes ago I hanged a poster on the wall saying all what I think: "I don't hate your lover", "I don't care about him", "I don't want to hurt him", "If adultery is allowed according to his church... . go on", "He is not the centre of my world", "no divorce from my part", "You are free to leave me", "I have nothing to do with this affair, I have also a life (with no cheating)".

Let's see what happens when she arrives home... .

ydrys017, here you are the link: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=85479.0

[formflier]

Hi all!

Thank you so much about... . everything, really. As you predicted she is testing me, since right now she is very disregulated. She keeps on telling how bad I am for trying to hurt her lover (who, according to her words, is totally innocent). I have repeated 100 times that I will not do anything about this affair, but 20 minutes later... . same story again and again.

A few minutes ago I hanged a poster on the wall saying all what I think: "I don't hate your lover", "I don't care about him", "I don't want to hurt him", "If adultery is allowed according to his church... . go on", "He is not the centre of my world", "no divorce from my part", "You are free to leave me", "I have nothing to do with this affair, I have also a life (with no cheating)".

Let's see what happens when she arrives home... .

ydrys017, here you are the link: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=85479.0

I would recommend that you take the poster down! 

When you think about the theory of "dealing with BPD"... . there is very little theory that supports "arguing" with them... . "making them" see your point... that kind of thing.

Most of the theory revolves around validation... . and around reducing conflict.

I'm not seeing how this poster helps that.

Also... . I have tried things like this with my uBPDw... they NEVER worked  So... she would continue to have the same thinking... and she would be more upset. 

[ziniztar]

A few minutes ago I hanged a poster on the wall saying all what I think: "I don't hate your lover", "I don't care about him", "I don't want to hurt him", "If adultery is allowed according to his church... . go on", "He is not the centre of my world", "no divorce from my part", "You are free to leave me", "I have nothing to do with this affair, I have also a life (with no cheating)".

Let's see what happens when she arrives home... .

Errrrr I would agree with formflier. So what happened?

I can see how it can bring relief to write down what you think... I do that a lot as well in a diary. Yet keeping it to yourself is a valuable thing too .

[DrJones]

I'm finally writing after some days... .

I removed the poster, as some of you counselled to do. She just said sarcastically that I had taken the 10 Commandments off. Anyway, that was the week when everything started to change... . again.

During the 3 months of her affair, I had told her several times what her cyber-lover wanted: some fun, no ties. I think she believed it was my jealousy speaking, but sometimes she asked me about the meaning of some of the things that her lover had said (  ) that sounded "weird" to her, such as "now we can't chat, because my wife... . ", or "I love you so much, but we have to think of our families", or even "I love you, but I cannot hurt my wife". My answer was always the same: he is playing with you, as the married boss with his secretary (I guess it would obvious for anyone).

After not chatting for two or three days, she recovered the strength to start thinking and realised that... . he was playing! She started to tell me some more details (nothing surprising, just the classic script of the 'Secretary Affair' and to feel very angry with her lover: he doesn't want to hurt his wife, but feels free to hurt me, she said. Where was his love for his wife when he insisted in chatting? (she wrote to him several times to end their relationship)", said she. One day she received another email from him, saying that his wife had discovered some of the emails that he had sent to my wife and wanted the divorce. My wife for a while felt pity for him, but after treading on earth said: he deserved. He is not a good husband 

I know that THIS affair is over. Now she often asks why I was so patient, and she says that she would have left me. Today she told me that she had a dream in which I said that I didn't love her. She is still very sad about it.

Well, let's see what happens next. Ready for another adventure! 

[formflier]

Well, let's see what happens next. Ready for another adventure! 

Dr Jones,

I don't remember all you story... . but has your wife done any individual counseling, been evaluated, etc etc.

If not... . and if she is during a period of introspection about her life... . and your r/s... . there may be an opening there.

Congrats on weathering the storm.  Enjoy the relative calm and remember to take care of yourself.

[DrJones]

Well, let's see what happens next. Ready for another adventure! 

Dr Jones,

I don't remember all you story... . but has your wife done any individual counseling, been evaluated, etc etc.

If not... . and if she is during a period of introspection about her life... . and your r/s... . there may be an opening there.

Hello.

Well, she has not been 'officially diagnosed, however, we had been looking for answers for a long time. My wife knew that what happens to her is not 'normal'. It was she herself the one who realised that the answer was BPD, there is no doubt.

We live abroad and there is no possibility of treatment, thus we are doing our best... .

[formflier]

Well, let's see what happens next. Ready for another adventure! 

Dr Jones,

I don't remember all you story... . but has your wife done any individual counseling, been evaluated, etc etc.

If not... . and if she is during a period of introspection about her life... . and your r/s... . there may be an opening there.

Hello.

Well, she has not been 'officially diagnosed, however, we had been looking for answers for a long time. My wife knew that what happens to her is not 'normal'. It was she herself the one who realised that the answer was BPD, there is no doubt.

We live abroad and there is no possibility of treatment, thus we are doing our best... .

Can you expand on that some?  Why there is no chance of treatment? 

Also... . "high conflict couple" is a book based on DBT.  I have it but will admit I haven't read it.  You may be able to work through that without a T.

[DrJones]

Well, we live (work) in a third world country. Education here is just... . ridiculous. I can tell you some places where to buy University diplomas, I have talked to English translators who cannot make up even a single sentence in correct or even in not-so-correct English. The few local psychologists are not different. In fact, they are usually teachers with two specialities: a school subject and psychology! They are simply not reliable at all, but even if they were, my wife is not fluent in the local language... . I know it is also difficult to find a good psychologist in the "1st world", so imagine here.

We have ":)BT Skills" (Fulton State Hospital) and some other reliable books that she tries to follow as much as possible. To be true, except for this spring when she had her most terrible regression ever, I see that she feels much better now that, for example, 3 or 4 years ago. Anyway, it is still very difficult.