He's coming to pick him up in 7 hours-advice pls

[eilmurf]

 My husband and I are separated- not legally,  (hes military). He has not seen our 3 year old in over 6 months (nothing to do with his position in the military but his inability to manage his finances. He will arrive today in 7 hours to pick up our 3 year old and will take him away to some hotel for the week-end. I said I thought it was best if he brought him back for the first night to sleep at home as he (the 3 yr old) has not seen him in over 6 months and may need to adjust (he's been around him very little since he's been born) and of course he's digging his heels in and determined to get his own way (no middle road here- of course!) its his way or no way and of course because its father day week-end its all about feeding his narcissistic needs (our original arrangement was for him to come on jury 4th he did this change without me knowing) . Right now I am not responding to any of his messages and don't know what to do! He will come here today and he will attempt to take him whether I like it or not. My 3 year old has a relationship with him on the phone but not in person I'm concerned what might happen when my child realizes he's not coming back or seeing us for the next few days. I keep telling myself to just let go... but because I know he's all about messing with little vulnerable minds (saw what he did to two other kids he has with someone else) I cant help but be worried. His other two kids are older now and got fed up with him and dont want to visit with him too much so now his focus is on our youngest. I have an older boy who is now 14 but was 7 when I married the uBPD and considers him "dad" who is completely ignored in all this and its very painful to watch him suffer this way. The very things the BPD person went through as a child (rejection, abandonment etc) is exactly what he is doing to my oldest. However he's older and I can at least talk things through with him and bring in the balance but with the little one its more challenging,,he hasnt a clue whats coming his way today... . and the uBPD is already playing the emotional head stuff with him I hear him at it on the phone- any advice would be appreciated!

[momtara]

Are you worried your son could be in physical danger?  Or kidnapped?  Or anything like that?

Do you have anyone helping you in this situation - a lawyer or close friend, or someone in his family?

It's hard to deal with these kinds of things alone.

If you're mostly worried about emotional problems, yeah, your kid may be sad or scared, but at least you know you'll get him back.  If your H is unstable, that's another matter.

Often, if a parent hasn't seen a kid in a while, a court can order supervised visitation as they get to know each other once again.  But it's a bit late for that as he's coming in a few hours.

You should have an idea of where they're going.  I wish I could help more with this - maybe someone else has a better idea.

Regarding preparing your 3 year old, you can tell him it's father's day and he'll be taking a little vacation with daddy and you'll be right here when they're done in a day.  Also make sure he knows his hometown and perhaps phone number if needed.

If you have a concern, you can always go talk to the police.  They  may not be able to do much except maybe show up and talk to your H and tell him to tell you where he is bringing your son.

If your only fear is that your son may be sad or confused emotionally, I understand, but it's just one weekend.  After that you can sort it out.  If you have greater fears, maybe talk to the cops.  Not sure... .

Hang in there.

[Matt]

Yeah, I think Momtara is right - it will be best to have a clear agreement as to what will happen, and you have every right to make sure the plan is one you're OK with.

If you decide that a few hours but not over night is best, maybe you can respond by e-mail or at least text - so there is a record - and say what you will agree to.  Don't argue, but if there is a small matter - if you say "Pick him up at 3:00 and return him by 7:00" and your husband says "I can't get there til 4:00 so I'll bring him back by 8:00" - you can be flexible about that.  But don't give in just to give in - let him know what is OK for you and stick to that.

Having it in writing, with both of your signatures, will mean you have something to show to the police if he doesn't bring the child home.  The police may not respect something that hasn't been approved by the court but it will be better than nothing.  You can write it down clearly and both sign and date it:

Father [his name] will pick up Child [Child's name] at about 3:00 p.m. on 6/13/14 and return Child to Mother's home [address] by about 7:00 p.m. the same day.

Tell him that if this goes well and he is still in town and wants to spend more time with your son tomorrow, you will be open to that too.  You're not trying to block him spending time with your son, you're just aiming to make it work out well for everyone.

[eilmurf]

I just got back from the drop off. After stressing about it a lot I just decided getting all worked up about what may happen will not do me or my son any good. So I was calm as could be at the drop off moment and just told him the little guy was really looking forward to hanging out... because its like dealing with a child really,,your trying to remain calm yourself but because they are so easily disregulated theres that tendency for me to try to keep him calm as well. I dunno what might happen as he likes to play little emotional games when the kids are this age (watched it all before) such as daddy really loves, misses, needs you etc on and on and on until the little guy gets upset with him. Hes trying to fill that big gaping hole he has inside of himself and I know he thinks when he tells our son these things over and over thats what he wants him to say to him so he feels loved, validated etc. His other two kids used to be a mess when he would drop them back to mom crying and hitting their mother as they felt sad guilty etc to be leaving dad, its not good or healthy and totally messes them over. Well I no sooner dropped our son off with him and the texts started coming,,"oh wish things were different between us" and "I can fix your phone tomorrow" and "we really should talk lets give it a day"... I know he hates to be on his own, having another child around does not help him. He wants this happy family thing to happen but well you know how it goes... .in a hot minute they can dump you and have the next victim on the conveyer belt ,,gotta laugh at this at times,,its all so pathetic!

[eilmurf]

Thank you both so much for your responses. Matt it seems whatever I say to try to negotiate anything that deviates from what he wants goes on deaf ears or he automatically sees it as me trying to control or manipulate the situation and will have none of it... . its his way totally or no way. So definitely the only way to deal with this should he take it a step further (legal) is to get an attorney and get a good plan going with guidelines boundaries and so on and be prepared to fight like heck as he is very devious and a big-time liar. I have already gotten a taste of how this can/will be as I am wife #3 (his mother btw is separated from husband #8, thats right married eight times). Momtart definitely agree about a tight plan in writing,,with BPD there is no other way, he is high functioning as well so a bit more challenging. He can fool the best of them,,goes to christian therapy then works on stupid stuff thats not even relevant. He told me the therapist told him he thought he was suffering from depression for the past 3 years (time we've been physically separated) every thing comes back to blaming me and round and round it goes.

[refusetosuccumb]

Ah the blame game. I know it all too well.  Did you know that Im actually able to have made my ex have an affair on me and do drugs because I didnt love him enough? I can shake my head now... . seperated 7 weeks together for 16 yrs.  A few weeks ago I couldnt do that.

Just know that I am living your life right now. Thank you for sharing and making me feel less alone.

[eilmurf]

I just found out yesterday by chance on his second day here with his son that instead of the 3 days he discussed he would be here for his visit  is now a week. When I told him I had no idea of this arrangement (email stated 13-16th) his response was who cares what difference does it make which upset me as I have things and plans etc going on which his visit will interfere with. After one night with our son in a hotel he said the next day he thought it was best that our son sleep in his own bed at home (due to his lack of getting much sleep). His moods are extreme up and downs and it seems he is getting worse as in more dysregulated and difficult- I thought BPDs got better normally as they aged-not this one! Now how to best handle this new time schedule? I dont want drama, I can see it right beneath the surface of the mask he wears he's about to go off (rage) but it seems with the disorder there's no way to avoid it at times. I have noticed bigtime that I'm overreacting to his behavior (walking on eggshells stuff, nervous, anticipating, stressing out etc) - I think my tolerance level of this carry on is gone to zero (cant stand this nonsense). Its taking a lot of energy to stay calm and focused around him. He seems to think he can make up the rules as he goes...

[livednlearned]

I'm sorry you have to go through this. It's an awful feeling to think about our kids being subjected to abuse, and feeling helpless to stop it from happening.

Would you be comfortable calling an attorney (many will allow you to do consultations for $50 to $100) to find out what you can do to protect your son without custody orders in place? If you can afford it, call two or three so you get a good spectrum of advice. Friends on the Family Law board can help you think about what kinds of questions to ask. Everyone knows how it feels -- the fear of triggering the spouse and the fear of something happening to our kids. People know exactly the tightrope you're walking.

A couple of times, my son's dad had some kind of psychotic episode. I was worried about my son spending time with him. When there is a custody order in place, you can always file what's called an ex parte suspension of visitation. That gives you some time to protect your son (several months depending on where you live), and then there's a hearing to determine whether the judge thinks the situation merits a change in visitation. I'm wondering if there is something like that you can do now, but only a lawyer can answer that.

Another thing that's good about talking to a lawyer -- you'll start to see the shape of a strategy if you do decide to divorce. Part of that strategy will be to document things your H does and says, which can go a long way in court.

Thank you both so much for your responses. Matt it seems whatever I say to try to negotiate anything that deviates from what he wants goes on deaf ears or he automatically sees it as me trying to control or manipulate the situation and will have none of it... . its his way totally or no way. So definitely the only way to deal with this should he take it a step further (legal) is to get an attorney and get a good plan going with guidelines boundaries and so on and be prepared to fight like heck as he is very devious and a big-time liar.

You have a lot going in your favor if you decide to file for custody/divorce. The status quo is that your son was spending most of the time with you, and courts care about that. If your H drops of S3 at night (for whatever reason), document it and keep any emails. It will show that he is not comfortable with overnights.

Have you read Splitting: Divorcing an NPD/BPD Spouse by Bill Eddy? That's a great place to start, and the Family Law board here is really helpful. Even just gathering information will help manage some of your stress so you know what the options are. Dealing with the courts is no picnic, but having official boundaries will make it easier for you to manage S3's dad. Not easy, but easier. Gathering information doesn't mean you have to do anything right away -- you can take your time.

[Matt]

So for these thirteen days what will happen?

Is your ex wanting to see your son every day?

He agrees that your son should always sleep at your place?

Could you make a schedule - Father picks him up at the same time every day and drops him off at the same time?

Or would it be better for you to do the picking up and dropping off, so you can make sure it's at the right times?

[momtara]

He may not really be able to take care of a child for that period of time.  He may have realized this now.  I know that for my exH, his eyes are bigger than his stomach.  Meaning, he is always asking for more parenting time, but when he has actually had it, he has gotten exhausted.  So hopefully when you do try to work out custody, he'll ask for very little.

[eilmurf]

wow got through the week just barely! He has just dropped the little guy off and will fly out tomorrow early. It went uneventful until yesterday. Uneventful in that there was no "major" drama. My son though would say things like mama ran away on me when  I would go  pick him up and when I asked who told him that he said daddy did and woke up the other morning crying saying mommy had left him (this is very unusual). Then yesterday I found out he had checked out of the hotel early morning and decided that he would spend the last two days at our home (sleep on the coach). I was in shock and didnt respond right away... then said (old caretaker, no boundaries  me) oh sure why not... then within a half hour started symptoms of PTSD (panic, high anxiety, getting emotionally strung out) so I called him and very calmly said that I needed him to please let me know ahead of time what the plan was (the entire trip it was changing not just daily but almost by the hour, almost drove me nuts) that I would need to know up front day, time etc with this he starting raging and would not stop so I  hang up on him.  He of course dragged up past stuff and how I was the one to change this and that (projection)... the usual story here. Within a short while after this (though he never apologized) he started sending scriptures and talked about getting in the flesh and what was needed was more self control to which I replied something about "application" as in applying these nice lessons was likely the next step . He tried to keep our son last night again to which I reminded him what he had said before about him sleeping in his own bed, he did not argue with this. He dropped him back off tonight (last time before leaving) and was a little too calm in my opinion... . He seemed very detached so I'm assuming something is coming down the line as this is not how he normally is. I could not imagine having a parenting plan with him as he would think it doesn't apply to him even when he makes his own rules. The crazy part is he is in the military and has to follow very stringent rules with higher ups telling him what to do all the time, he makes major decisions, is very disciplined and has to deal with all types of personalities and pressure etc. I thought to myself today the same way he makes things work in his "high stress" job why cant he apply the same principles or life skills to home and family life. He has to remain calm under stressful situations, follow the rules, manage time etc... . I just don't get it! He says we will talk when he gets back about what will be the step forward from here (by the way this is an all the time occurrence after he visits). So how should I address this,,I have in the past said things like what does that look like and what is his perception of the issue (he is very far off the mark btw). Where do I go with this? He says hes seeing a counselor (always short lived). He obviously doesn't seem to get much of what is going on at all. Ive in the past not tried to do or push much of anything. Im trying to get through school and on my feet and gain independence financially. Any suggestions!

[eilmurf]

Momtara- you got it right, he is not able, I know this but I dont say anything... I just wait and then I get the call. He does the same with his other two kids revs them up with all they will do on his visit with them and then always cuts it short and bails out early... it is very very sad.

[eilmurf]

Matt- this is the first time we have had to have a plan like this as in the past it wasnt an issue. He would just come home for a short visit and I would struggle through until his departure. I kept us all very very busy with events and family outings etc which worked in the past,,but the longer we've been apart the more I just don't want to live like this anymore and Im determined now to get up on my feet and fight for independence from him and for a more peaceful home for my kids. There was a plan for his visit but he kept changing it over and over. He thinks he can do more than what he can and when reality sets in its another story.

[eilmurf]

 Everyone knows how it feels -- the fear of triggering the spouse and the fear of something happening to our kids. People know exactly the tightrope you're walking.

Livednlearned- thank you for these words they brought so much needed prospective and comfort in my moments during this past week. It was a good reminder to me that I dont walk this path alone and many others are dealing with a similar situation as my own.

I will look into "ex parte suspension of visitation" for this state, hadn't heard of this before. I have over the years talked to many lawyers trying to get as much free info as I could and weighed it all up in the event of him filing I would have some idea what was going on. I have heard of Bill Eddys book but probably should purchase it as Im sure there is a lot of good info I could use. Trying to bide my time here and in a way drag this out (distance is very helpful indeed) as my main concern is for my youngest, my oldest child knows what he has and has learned what to not say to trigger. We talk it all through before he visits and after process things as well. I have told him once I found out what it was and now he is older he can see for himself. He is no longer fearful of my husband as my oldest is now bigger than he

[livednlearned]

Everyone knows how it feels -- the fear of triggering the spouse and the fear of something happening to our kids. People know exactly the tightrope you're walking.

Livednlearned- thank you for these words they brought so much needed prospective and comfort in my moments during this past week. It was a good reminder to me that I dont walk this path alone and many others are dealing with a similar situation as my own.

I will look into "ex parte suspension of visitation" for this state, hadn't heard of this before. I have over the years talked to many lawyers trying to get as much free info as I could and weighed it all up in the event of him filing I would have some idea what was going on. I have heard of Bill Eddys book but probably should purchase it as Im sure there is a lot of good info I could use. Trying to bide my time here and in a way drag this out (distance is very helpful indeed) as my main concern is for my youngest, my oldest child knows what he has and has learned what to not say to trigger. We talk it all through before he visits and after process things as well. I have told him once I found out what it was and now he is older he can see for himself. He is no longer fearful of my husband as my oldest is now bigger than he

You have a slightly different situation than many members here -- your H spends long periods of time away. A good question for the L is if custody orders would actually increase the amount of time your H rightfully had access to your S3. The benefit of custody orders is that you have the full weight of the court behind you if you need to enforce boundaries. The disadvantage is that your H can enforce those boundaries too. And everything gets expensive whenever lawyers get involved.

I planned my divorce over a 4-year period and I'm so glad I put that kind of effort and thought into it. Like you, I was trying to get myself into a better financial situation. Some days I regret not leaving sooner, but I'm also glad I spent time getting my ducks in a row. There were things I didn't realize until I started to do my homework. I also convinced my employer they needed to hire me full-time  . They did! That gave me benefits and enough income to afford an apartment in a safe neighborhood. The lawyer I talked to also told me to document everything, which was excellent advice. It's hard to carve out the time to do it consistently and keep it organized, especially when you're a busy parent with a job + school, but it matters -- if you go the divorce route, your H is going to make up all kinds of things, and you want a reliable record that you can pull out and share with people.

[Boss302]

Everyone knows how it feels -- the fear of triggering the spouse and the fear of something happening to our kids. People know exactly the tightrope you're walking.

Livednlearned- thank you for these words they brought so much needed prospective and comfort in my moments during this past week. It was a good reminder to me that I dont walk this path alone and many others are dealing with a similar situation as my own.

I will look into "ex parte suspension of visitation" for this state, hadn't heard of this before. I have over the years talked to many lawyers trying to get as much free info as I could and weighed it all up in the event of him filing I would have some idea what was going on. I have heard of Bill Eddys book but probably should purchase it as Im sure there is a lot of good info I could use. Trying to bide my time here and in a way drag this out (distance is very helpful indeed) as my main concern is for my youngest, my oldest child knows what he has and has learned what to not say to trigger. We talk it all through before he visits and after process things as well. I have told him once I found out what it was and now he is older he can see for himself. He is no longer fearful of my husband as my oldest is now bigger than he

It sounds like you've pretty much decided to end things with your husband, so keep that context in mind here.

BPDs typically aren't much for rules - not because they're sociopathic (though I think some are), but because their emotions are so chaotic that what seems like a good idea one moment can become anathema the next. That's why it's CRITICAL to have an actual parenting agreement in place, agreed to by both of you, and recorded as a court order. His military job might make that more difficult to set up, but it can be done. Ask your attorney about it.

Without solid court orders, you'll find each visitation is chaotic, which is no good for you, and worse for your three year old. Kids need structure in divorces - they need to know where they'll be, and who they'll be with, and this is even more important with an ex who has emotional instability issues.

Also, get used to the idea of "parallel parenting" versus "co-parenting". Co-parenting assumes that both parents are ready, willing and able to truly cooperate with parenting issues, and this just isn't feasible with most BPDs - their emotions are so chaotic that they are very difficult to work with. Parallel parenting means that mom has her set of responsibilities, Dad has his, and each person is responsible for doing his or her job without interference from the other. In my case, it played out like this: I got "decision making" on the most critical aspects of the kids' upbringing (educational matters, physical and dental health), and she became responsible for getting the kids to therapy, vision care, and gynecologist visits. We made each party responsible for transportation and expenses for activities during our individual parenting time (that way we didn't run into "I'm taking the kids to the amusement part - give me $50". This has greatly reduced the amount of conflict between us. The system hasn't worked 100% - she hasn't been able to effectively manage the kids' therapy - but if she continues to drop the ball, I can always go back to court and ask that this area of responsibility fall to me instead, and given the history of the case, I'm confident I'll win.

I highly recommend this approach to parenting with a BPDx... . for your sanity and the kids'.