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Author Topic: 2 Young Children and Mom with BPD symptoms  (Read 457 times)
Norrin Radd

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« on: June 19, 2014, 12:37:57 PM »

Hello.

I have a topic in L1 Introductions here: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=225603.0

You can read this to get more background information.

I have titled this thread "2 Young Children Involved" because I want to keep my kids as the priority here.

Here is the basic introduction:

I have a SO (we will call her M) whom I believe has BPD. M was diagnosed with BPD when she was a teenager but was told she grew out of it. Today she has symptoms of BPD but has not been diagnosed. M has been diagnosed with Postpartum Depression (PPD) and is getting some medication for that which seems to be helping. We have two young children, 2 years and 5 months, we are raising together. It is a daily struggle for me to stay focused on solutions and to not slip into a mode of depression where I rely on distractions to cope with the pain.

M tells me she was sexually, violently and emotionally abused by her father when she was young and throughout her life. I think that I trigger her to be angry and violent. She has had numerous outbursts with screaming and violence. She also does self-harming. She punched herself in the head and I seriously think she gave herself a concussion before. My son is 2 and he has witnessed a few of these outbursts. I am at a point where I must learn to stop this cycle. I  have been seeing a counselor and she is seeing a therapist for PPD but not for BPD. I have learned through my counseling that I project some of the problems I have with my mother onto others, and I might be doing this with M sometimes.

Recently what has happened is child services (the government) has gotten involved after M's mom called the police on her, after M threatened to commit suicide and kill our baby too. So now she has been getting more help, but it is not enough.

I have a fear that the government will take our kids away. They might deem M unfit and have them removed and placed into foster care... . So I haven't been totally honest about the extent of the problems with the government agent. However the agent has reassured us that we have a very good support structure - One of the things we have done is to get my aunts to come over and help in the mornings. They did that every other day for the last 2 weeks but haven't done it this week, and now M has had another crisis situation. I told M I would get my aunts to come over tomorrow morning but, "The house is a mess I am embarrassed" is what she said about it. Last week when my aunt came over one morning M lost it on me and screamed at me for 5-10 minutes about something trivial like cleaning or organizing. My aunt told me that this is ridiculous and that she would support me if I was going to leave M. So that gives an idea of how unacceptable it is if my aunt would say that after hearing just one incident (and benign in comparison to some of the worse things M has done).

This morning M phoned me at work screaming from home about how she can't find some things she needs to get ready. She was trying to go a play-group appointment with our children. She was yelling and in a rage and I know my 2-year old was standing right there while she did it.

It is unacceptable to me... . Like, yes, I get it. I know why she is upset and can't deal. But with kids involved it is unacceptable. I think that I've lost sympathy now. I think this is me struggling with the "Step 4 - Embrace the realities of BPD" part of the Undecided process... . which is hard because I really don't want to live with those realities. I could have stayed up last night and got everything ready for her, engaged in an uncomfortable interview with her about what she needs to get ready during which she will get annoyed at me for asking her questions, but I wasn't motivated to do that. M calls me a Jerk a lot now. "Why are you such a jerk to me" she will say, because I have stopped validating her at every turn. I was doing it for a while, but now I will sometimes say, "Well you should have done something differently! You should have asked me to look for your wallet rather than those special boots you wanted" And of course this leads into more problems. I said, "This is why this keeps happening, because we can't communicate properly, because we are distant, because we don't connect anymore, and because I am afraid of you"... . it is the truth! But she is still in denial about most of it. When I said that today she got mad and it sounded like she might hurt herself, but she didn't, so maybe she is making progress. I have threatened to leave her many times, and to call the child services on her if she gets mad in front of the kids, and I almost threatened to again today but I didn't. She says that I am abusing her by doing that, and I guess it is only if I don't follow through with it.

But really, this isn't what I want. I can't take this role for the rest of my life, and progress isn't being made fast enough. I didn't find out about this reality until I was already too emotionally invested in the relationship... . in hindsight I should not have had kids with her without addressing that reality first.

This is my struggle. I am posting in L5 Staying because, well, I am staying right now. We are living together still. We have a couples counseling session planned for next week.

I have been trying to repair the relationship in subtle ways, initiating a back rub or complimenting her, but she rejects intimacy. She rejects sexuality now too. She says that just touching her makes her feel gross. We haven't been intimate for a year or more. I crave intimacy and connection. My counselor tells me she is surprised how much I yearn for that. It is because in my life I have never had it. My mother and father had huge issues, fights, yelling, violence, and I became isolated very early in my life from them and from my siblings, and have had big trouble making and keeping friends throughout my life. I never had a health relationship model and that is part of the reason I am in this mess to begin with.

So is it fair to me to keep struggling with this? Is it fair for me to keep trying at a relationship that might take years to come close to resembling the type of relationship that I want? A relationship that actually is isolating me further from the person that I want to be?

I don't know... . Do I stay for the kids?

So now my plan of action is to sit down and have a real talk with her tonight. After the kids are in bed it seems like we usually just ignore each other, or at most we will watch TV together. I have to start to establish more of a dialogue before our counseling session together. I want her to know where I stand, and that I want to establish these boundaries of "no yelling or violence in front of our kids, or even within earshot of them. In-fact, I don't want it in my life at all. I understand you get upset with me, but I don't deserve to be yelled at or threatened." (to this I know she will respond, "But you are terrible to me, you love sluts, you have tricked me, you are a jerk", etc... . ) I want to say that if these boundaries are violated that there will be consequences. I have already had assurances from my aunts and my dad that I can take the kids over to their house anytime I need to - but to do that I need to take M's car which has both the car seats in it. So really if I do that she might say I've stolen her car and phone the police on me. So really to make this kind of ultimatum I need to be able to back it up with action. It could be easy enough for me to leave by myself, and I might like that one day, but really if it is bad enough for me to leave it is probably bad enough to take my kids with me. And taking the kids with me would be such a more profound statement to her... .

This is some of what I've been thinking about lately.

Thank you so much everyone for your continued support and insight! I greatly value the perspective of others who may have experience with similar situations. I hope you can understand everything that is going on here.
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woodsposse
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« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2014, 01:53:22 PM »

 

Wow.  That is a lot to have to deal with! 

The "good part" is - I could have easily written what you wrote because it pretty much describes my life (well, described... . as things are much different for me these days).

I'm at work at the moment so don't have a lot of time to respond in depth, but just know you are in the right place and members here "get you".

Stay strong.   Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)
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DreamFlyer99
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« Reply #2 on: June 20, 2014, 12:48:17 AM »

Norrin--

When I read the sentence about you never having had a good role model having a lot to do with the mess you're in now, well, wow do I get that!

My mother was likely BPD/NPD and my father a functioning alcoholic, and life was either violent or dead silent. And now I seem to have been married to somebody with very similar traits to my mother's--for nearly 38 years. I thought the things that were happening were really what he said, stuff like that he was just "frustrated" not angry, even though he had been belittling me and calling me names. I didn't have the right filters to see that things were way crazy, and that not only his tantrums but my freaked out responses to his tantrums were affecting our children badly.

It's not unusual in one of these high-stress relationships to start losing your way, losing sight of who you are and what you value, since it's so easy to fall into a simply reactive state rather than a considered response state, if you know what I mean.

It takes a lot of work for someone with BPD to change their ways, and first they have to truly desire to change. And i'm pretty sure people don't just "grow out of" a personality disorder since they have very deeply held faulty beliefs about themselves and others.

What things do you value? Mutual respect? A desire to meet the other person's needs and have them care to meet yours? i'm like you in that I crave intimacy and connection, and that's been very sparse in my r/s. When the pwBPD is into something then you'll receive it, so same for me, physical affection was really hard to come by, as was emotional support, and sex became nonexistent when my H was no longer interested. When he was into any of those things then sure, i'd start thinking "maybe things are going to change!" but when he lost interest then the affection or the support were yanked out from under me.

For the pwBPD, things are generally about them (due to those faulty beliefs,) and without lots of therapy that's pretty specific to changing their faulty belief system we partners are going to be w a i t i n g for their desires to coincide with our needs. So we need to take all the knowledge and make an informed decision.

Of course, waiting to see if the PPD resolves is important, since that can be a huge factor in her behavior i'd imagine.

Your children really need stability and safety--i think both you and i know what the lack of those things can do to a kid and the adult that kid grows into. If you feel you can learn learn learn and then apply apply apply all of the really helpful tools here and are willing to set your own needs aside, you can definitely start making changes in your own behavior. One of those would probably be having better boundaries about how you'll be treated, right? And that can be a catalyst for change of some kind. But like you said, the kids growth is paramount in your decision, so be there for them, make their emotional well-being your goal, work as many of the tools as you can as see what happens.

Just don't let yourself be distracted away from those precious little ones. Smiling (click to insert in post)
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Norrin Radd

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« Reply #3 on: June 26, 2014, 12:41:56 PM »

So is it fair to me to keep struggling with this? Is it fair for me to keep trying at a relationship that might take years to come close to resembling the type of relationship that I want? A relationship that actually is isolating me further from the person that I want to be?

Update: I didn't make an ultimatum to her in so many words. I told her I am seriously considering taking the kids away from her "for a few days" so that she can have some personal development time.

We had our couples therapy, and I feel like she hijacked the session with her own problems about PPD and everything, which is fine for her to voice, but I didn't get to voice my serious concerns. She also accused me of being a root of the problem for her which is BS. We did a personality-type indicator test and discovered we are quite different people. Her inability to make a concrete plan and my need to make a concrete plan is causing continual conflict as without a plan I cannot be as productive.

Today she called me and yelled at me on the phone for the reason that she wasn't prepared to do what she had to do today. The reason is that there was no plan for her to get ready and she fell asleep early last night and slept-in this morning. She yelled and screamed at the top of her lungs with my 2 year old son around. I threatened to come and get the kids. I almost called the child services myself. I told her that because of the way she is acting that the kids probably should be taken away from her at this moment. It got worse. I just don't have the patience anymore. I have too much resentment from probably a dozen physical assaults over the past 4-5 years.. I think this is the fundamental problem for me. I can't forgive her for what she did to me, how she hurt me.  I think about it every day and I feel the pain inside me from that resentment. And she will not see this clearly, I cannot break through to her, as many people know a pwBPDs deeply held beliefs are almost impossible to challenge. She doesn't listen to logic. I feel like "taking it on the chin" is betraying my own self respect and hurting me more.

So basically, I am broken. I have always been broken because of abuse from my own mother. So now I want to heal, I have begun to, but I can't anymore because I am dealing with abuse from her (and she says I am abusing her too). So I want away from it. I really really do. I just can't handle anymore. I am breaking down, I am crying, I am having panic attacks... . I need to know how to confront her and how to make a real change in my life, but I am notoriously bad at confrontation... . I'm between a rock and a hard place... . tomorrow we have a meeting with child service agent in the morning. I don't know what will happen. Maybe me and her will break out into a fight in front of them (like we practically did at the couples counseling). Maybe she will start accusing me of doing things and in return I will tell the truth about her history of violence and how I am afraid of my childrens emotional well being because she is mentally unstable right now. And then I really don't know what will happen. It might be bad, but it might be good... .
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Love Is Not Enough
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« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2014, 02:47:54 PM »

First I wanted to say  Welcome

Whatever you do, please be sure to come back here for support and knowledge.

I have gone through something similar and I know how hard a RS can be with two small children. My SD3 and SD5 have witnessed their mother's deplorable behavior. SD5 has been handled roughly in the past, bordering on physical abuse. The emotional abuse is just as bad though. I have seen her reduced to a shaking, huddled, sobbing mass on the floor before. The worst part is that I have no legal rights to them and can not just take them with me when she is dysregulating. I know how heart breaking of a situation you are in.

I know you are struggling with accepting BPD and the long term reality of it. My situation has improved dramatically now that my gf is in DBT, but I have accepted now that the RS will never be anything approaching "normal". Daily life is much less chaotic now and the episodes are mild compared to before. Just this morning my gf dysregulated on SD3 because she wanted me to dress her for school and was not listening. My gf was very upset that the children seem to prefer her over me. She became angry and told me to take them to school. Eventually she calmed down enough to take them herself and even apologized to me a few minutes ago.

It can get better. Ultimately it comes down to you though. This is what worked for me.

Learn the tools on here and put them into practice asap. SET and radical acceptance are your best friends. Click the lessons link on the right and read, read, read.

You must learn how to control you own emotions. Period. You are in reality dealing with 3 small children that rely on you being the rock of the family. Stop taking everything she says personally and see her attacks for what they are, manipulative games. You have to step out of the drama for things to improve. You cannot argue with CRAZY! Just say what you have to (using the tools) to deescalate the situation and pick your battles carefully. Only bring up things that you feel are absolutely necessary.

Take care of YOU first! Set boundaries and do not take her abuse. Remove yourself from the situation. The first time my gf physically attacked me we separated until she agreed to do DBT. It has been 8 months since that incident and so far she has not done it again. You have to do things you enjoy to reduce the stress and keep yourself healthy. Especially for your children. They are depending on you.

I am personally not a big believer in couples counseling. It is my opinion that they have so many of their own issues that it is hard to work on anything relating to the RS. I was always too afraid to bring up anything ( and so was the T  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)) for fear of a nuclear meltdown that we never got anywhere. What I really wanted from the T was validation for the craziness I was experiencing and for him to tell her she was full of it. That of course never happened. Hopefully if she makes it far enough in her recovery we can continue down that path again one day.

Two babies would be very stressful for someone not dealing with a PD, much less an emotionally unstable pwBPD. You are in a tough situation. You have to do you best to relax and try to focus on you and the children. I know what it is to be broken and how hard the panic attacks are. I am dealing with severe burnout now from having them for so long. Try working the tools here first, but if things get too out of hand you may want to consider trying to separate and removing the children from her care. You can encourage her to go to counseling, but ultimately you cannot make her do anything. All you can do is control yourself and protect your children. Please keep us updated. My thoughts will be with you and your children.
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Norrin Radd

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« Reply #5 on: June 29, 2014, 10:39:41 AM »

I have trouble doing this. If I can't live with the reality of BPD then I can't stay... . Its that simple, no? She just exploded because she hates my bro and sis. She saw my sister messaged me and she got mad "why do you do this to me" and I was upset she will snoop through my messages. I live my whole life with a crazy woman, my mom, and I remember all the bs when M acts like this and I can't deal so I get upset and don't use the tools here like I should... .
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DreamFlyer99
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« Reply #6 on: July 01, 2014, 02:20:58 PM »

Ohhh... .I am feelin' HARD for you right now! I hated when I hit those points with my uBPDh of anxiety attacks and fear. 

You're right of course to be concerned for the safety of your little ones--if M has no trouble being physical with you it's possible for her to turn that on them, though it isn't something that's 100%. And living in a volatile environment definitely takes a toll on you mentally, emotionally, physically. You aren't imagining any of that. Plus I know how hard it is to remember to keep our cool in their moments of explosiveness.

It can't be comfortable for M either, i'd imagine, feeling so many emotions so hard, yunno? But she is going to need to decide that her life isn't working out the way she's doing it and decide to get help for herself. So you need to look at your own needs so you don't become unable to take care of your kids.

Do you live where you can take the kids and go to a coffee shop or shopping mall or somewhere when you feel the tension arising from M? Or to a friend's house or a family member's? Is there some kind of "tell" she has that clues you into the explosion that probably is coming next? If you can see that, or even if it goes to the point of the explosion, you can certainly take a "time out" and remove the kids and yourself from the home for whatever time you need for M to cool back off. Here's the link to info about that: How to take a time out

I also married someone who was "familiar" to me from my childhood though I of course didn't recognize that at the time. My mother could be very charming as long as things were going her way, but look out when they didn't! My uBPDh is the same way. It's a hard thing to finally realize that duh, I married my mother. 

This is a good visual for what happens when the pwBPD dysregulates (that word covers soo much): Arguing - don't engage

It's difficult when we've been in a r/s long term enough to have learned certain patterns of reacting to our loved one's acting out. (for my uBPDh it seems very much like a tantrum.) We have to RElearn to respond in our fully aware brain, and that takes some stepping back, some formulating of a plan for when they do act up again. Mine became something like: "Observe. Don't take it personally. Being pulled into this moment doesn't do either of us any good." I had spent so many years engaging in his one sided discussions and being pushed pushed pushed to think exactly like him when I didn't. So I had to totally change my own stance and teach myself to wait and watch, and remind myself it was about him really and not me.

The "stay for the kids" question is one only you can answer. Whichever way your r/s goes, I know you want to be involved with your children and help keep them emotionally and physically safe, right? What did the child service agent say?

Physical abuse is never okay, but emotional abuse is deeply damaging as well. What is M doing about the PPD? And is that what's causing this flare up or has she always been this volatile?

df99

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Norrin Radd

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« Reply #7 on: July 01, 2014, 02:48:10 PM »

Hey everyone. So it has not been so bad in the last day or so, I have been using the validation and SET and it is working.

Excerpt
Whatever you do, please be sure to come back here for support and knowledge.

Agreed

I'm accepting the reality a bit better... .but she is still dysregulating often. Today it was because she couldn't find the bug spray. It will always be something. HOWEVER: She is on medication now and I THINK it has helped! This is huge because just a small improvement is going to magnify as it will allow me more space to work on myself. I will find out what med she is on if that is helpful.

Excerpt
Do you live where you can take the kids and go to a coffee shop or shopping mall or somewhere when you feel the tension arising from M?

- Yes and I did that the other day. It really helped.

Thanks for those links.

Excerpt
The "stay for the kids" question is one only you can answer. Whichever way your r/s goes, I know you want to be involved with your children and help keep them emotionally and physically safe, right? What did the child service agent say?

I didn't talk to him about the BPD symptoms. The meeting went okay, except M totally dysregulated before he arrived, being mad at me for something. Luckilly I had two of my aunts arrive and M's mom came over. So they took my son out and helped as I retreated from M.

The CS agent brought a worker from another program that seemed to be pretty good to me. I am open to it and I would like to go to something they offer. They work with the parent and the child to foster a better relationship between them. It sounds interesting but you have to be under the thumb of child services to do it. M just wants to end our involvement with CS. The CS agent has the power to take your kids away at the stroke of a pen and even though he is really nice, because he has that power it is almost coercion, we feel obligated to do what he recommends, we don't want to raise any eyebrows, and it is extremely stressful on M to have that thought in her mind.

Excerpt
Physical abuse is never okay, but emotional abuse is deeply damaging as well. What is M doing about the PPD? And is that what's causing this flare up or has she always been this volatile?

She is seeing a PPD therapist and is joining a PPD mothers group in our area.

She has always been this volatile (after the first 8-10 months of our relationship anyway, it started slowly). The PPD makes it worse though.

I think that I do want to remove the children from her care, but I don't have the courage. I really want to be a full time care provider for them, that would be a dream, but of course I can't afford to... .I am really good with them and I want to give them the tools to succeed in life... .

But here is the rub; M is good with them too, when she isn't dysregulating. So I feel really bad for her because I know how much she loves them. It is really hard for me to reconcile and fully comprehend my responsibilities to my kids and to M and where they intersect. I know that removing them from M's care will damage them too because they love M (of course), and I know from experience that young kids don't understand the abuse or neglect they may be experiencing, they don't think rationally about it, not until they are older. However, they are in their formative years and it is so important to have them develop properly now... .

I think that when I really get down to it I don't have much choice. I therefore am forming three plans.

Plan A: Stay with M and utilize the tools and resources here.

- SET and Validation. Radical Acceptance.

- Make more solid plans and ensure M has proper support in getting ready.

-BIG DEAL FOR ME: Take care of myself first.

 -- Set Boundaries

 -- Do the things I enjoy (ummm... .having sex? Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) yeah that would involve cheating on M, I haven't decided to do that. This is a sticky wicket since I am afraid of having sex with M because it makes her feel dirty... .even though at times she might want to.) I really need to think about what some of these things might be. Being in a RS is supposed to get me that, because I really crave connection with someone, I need a partner who I can enjoy doing things with, that is really what I want in life. That is the big thing I really want that I can't have. So this is the torture of my life right now, totally craving connection with someone yet having nobody to connect with on that level. That might be why I am very "clingy"... .I think it will be to find a friend that really gets me. I have some friends that I haven't really hung out with in ages, maybe I will try to rekindle some of those friendships... .

Plan B: Give M an ultimatum (this I will need help on). Either go to intensive therapy or I will do plan C.

- M has to understand why I would say this, she has to realize why emotional abuse is just as bad as physical abuse. She has to see that I really care and am not abandoning her... .

Plan C: Leave M entirely and fight for custody if necessary (or some similar drastic measure).

- Problem is that M totally believes I am an idiot and incapable of doing this. (I might want to prove her wrong.) But the problem is that as an ultimatum she would laugh at it... .which really makes the ultimatum ineffective don't you think?

... .

Thanks guys: Love Is Not Enough, DreamFlyer99, woodsposse

Cheers!

Norin
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« Reply #8 on: July 01, 2014, 02:54:16 PM »

This was heartbreaking to read and I can hear from your words just how difficult this is for you 

Your priorities are sound Norrin Radd, you are concerned for you and your children's well being. What jumps out of your post are the issues around your children's safety. You said you withheld information from the Children's Dept for fear they would be removed, the problem with something like this is that they can only help more if they know how difficult things are for you, and things sound so very difficult for you all at the moment. DF99 is right coping with two small children is really really hard, but add in BPD and PND and many people would not be coping at all.

Can you contact Child Services again and ask for more help?

Is there anything you can do to make things easier for your wife to cope better with the children when you are not around? Sorting out clothes, baths, lunch boxes etc anything that will keep any emotional chaos away from the children.

Do you have any flexibility at work that might help your current situation?

If you wanted to leave for you and your children's safety do you have somewhere you could go?

Is it possible for family members to have the children stay over so they get some time away?

I'm sorry if this feels like it's heaping loads more to do on you, but in the short term your wife is clearly not managing at all and it may be that she wants more help but doesn't know how to ask for this.

Take good care of yourself and your children 

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Norrin Radd

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« Reply #9 on: July 01, 2014, 03:41:05 PM »

Excerpt
Can you contact Child Services again and ask for more help?



Yes I could, but M would equate this with betrayal or abandonment.

Excerpt
Is there anything you can do to make things easier for your wife to cope better with the children when you are not around? Sorting out clothes, baths, lunch boxes etc anything that will keep any emotional chaos away from the children.

Yes there is, and I have been trying. I need to communicate more with her but she doesn't want to very often.

Excerpt
Do you have any flexibility at work that might help your current situation?

Yes. If it wasn't for this I would have lost my job twice over.

Excerpt
If you wanted to leave for you and your children's safety do you have somewhere you could go?

Yes there are a couple places I could go. If I want to take the kids with me I can go to a neighbors if need be.

Excerpt
Is it possible for family members to have the children stay over so they get some time away?

My oldest has stayed one night away from mommy so far and he had a tough time with it, but we are working towards that. I think it is doable.

On a side-note, one thing that really bothered me was that the other day M was nagging at me, not really yelling but speaking harshly in a negative tone, I told her to "stop talking to me like that please" and I picked up my son and started to walk away and then my son started making angry word sounds and hit me a bunch of times... .like he was just doing what he saw mommy doing. I pointed that out to her and she said, "Yeah, whatever, that is what toddlers do"... .So really, I think she in denial here about how her behavior is affecting our kids and that is a major part of the problem why I feel like I can't make progress.
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« Reply #10 on: July 01, 2014, 04:37:02 PM »

Wow! You have done a lot of thinking and sorting things out and applying of tools in a short time! I bet that feels really good, knowing that you do indeed have control of some things, and those are all things only you can do. That's great, and so encouraging to hear. Smiling (click to insert in post)

While you're walking through this time of changing how you respond (rather than simply reacting to whatever's thrown out there) do keep coming and posting and reading. Support is really important when we are trying to make significant changes.

In so many of the things M is saying (even that you are too whatever--weak, stupid, whatever she comes up with) remind yourself that IT IS ABOUT HER. Those things can be where she is projecting how she feels about herself onto you.

It sounds like you lean toward the thoughts where you'd prefer to keep child services out of things, am I right? I get the feeling that you are feeling a bit more empowered, and that happens as we come out of the F.O.G.--fear, obligation, and guilt that are used on us. And i'm so glad that you did the time out! Removing yourself as the target helps not only you keep your cool but shows the pwBPD that your boundary is that you won't be screamed at, and you won't leave your children to deal with it either. And yes, those early years are massively important in their development.

I'm not so sure ultimatums work with anyone much--the straight up fact is that nobody likes being told what to do! Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) Here's an article on your thoughts of helping M get some sort of BPD specific help: Article 6: Helping a Loved-One with Borderline Personality Disorder Seek Treatment

In a healthy r/s each person is responsible for their own health, whether it's mental or physical. Not to say that we won't be supportive in their efforts, but the decision to do something about their health has to be their own. Our trying to lead them into change doesn't really work, it feels like we are coercing, and most people want to feel like their own separate person. I tried that "leading" thing of "why don't you try this?" and it was a big FAIL. This article speaks to our support of someone who is actively working to overcome their negative behavior: Article 5: Supporting a Loved-One with Borderline Personality Disorder

This is a conversation I think you'd find interesting: Staying/Leaving for the kids?

The healthiest thing you can do for everyone in your house is to take care of yourself and become as well informed and observant as you can. (and speaking of "things you want to do," don't even get me started on the 4 Year Sex Fast Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) )


df99

Good stuff from Sweetheart there!


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« Reply #11 on: July 05, 2014, 08:51:24 PM »

Hello,

I was raised with a father that is uNPD and a Stepfather with some from of attachment disorder most likely BPD.  My first wife also was sex assaulted by older brother, and other males after that. My current wife has BPD. I have two kids with each. From my history I would say you have a few other things to think about also. You didn't expand on the assault side of things but that has A SET OF IT OWN ISSUES also.

My Ex was sleeping with our S10 at time when her second H was at work. She would have the S8 take turns. the S's T asked her to stop after I point this out. Then they moved to a lot of cuddling on the couch. She still has the Boys jump up on her hip in public to get a hug. The boys are slowly curbing this behavior. She also has major issues being apart from them I have just got her this summer to move to a week on week off schedule. But that is not fully true she comes over and picks them up while I'm at work, they are now 14,12.

One thing about your statement brings back memorizes of how my first ended. You Said M tells me she was sexually, violently and emotionally abused by her father when she was young and throughout her life. I think that I trigger her to be angry and violent. She has had numerous outbursts with screaming and violence.

My ex did same thing and cut off all physical contact when the feeling started resurfacing. I read a book not exact title "ghost in the bedroom a partners guide". It said that many times a survivor will blame a future lover for the acts of the passed, not the true assaulter.  I was that person for her the first male to respect and love her. So you maybe dealing with this on top of the BPD, I would ask your T about it, and if you should bring it to the MC attention.

For the kids you have to look at How much you can keep the exposure to a minimum in my mind. I have been lucky this have with both Ws the kids have been kept out of it.  Only a few times have they seen it get ugly. I got to see it get ugly many times with my parents. I have to say it did teach me not to disagree with my first W. I would hold a lot in and come to find out later she was faking her personality for the same reason not wanting to lose the love. I had our boys in with a T and that has helped them a lot with the behaviors I would see with them have mostly stopped. So if you say start them with a T early 5 in fine in my mind. That way they have a safe person to talk to. My older son called it emptying the tank.  You will want to have a short one on one with T both of you, to express your concerns. This will allow you to address M mental state with out upsetting her hopefully.

I have a dBPDw that has been working on herself for eights years seriously. It's not a cake walk but I have seen many successes on her part. We maybe in a rough spot now but before it would have been very ugly if we made it to this point. She has been with T since about 6 months into our r/s.

Its a hard choice, continue your research and don't make any fast choices.

stay true to yourself and family
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« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2014, 05:18:02 PM »

Thank you everyone.

I have seen improvements, but they are far too few. 

The major problems still exist.

I used SET to good effect today, but by then a lot of the damage was done. Next time I will employ it immediately, but she is smart and I think she is catching on and adapting her tactics to get around it, the validation alone didn't work.

Today She called me at work again freaking out. She screamed at the top of her lungs and talked to me angrily and threatened suicide. She may have hit herself even. I don't know if my son and daughter saw this, but they definitely heard it. In retrospect I should have stayed home this morning and been late to work, or stayed up late last night to prepare for today, but I was totally exhausted. The kids didn't get to sleep until around midnight last night. This morning I slept in and was in a rush, the kitchen was a total disaster. I haven't had time to clean because yesterday I took my son to the park for 4 hours while M took our daughter with her to her friends. I got home and dealt with the kids the rest of the night, with a short break... .

I was on the verge of calling the CS agent but couldn't find his number. I ended up going there to help her get ready. She has threatened suicide constantly today and says she is waiting until our daughter is 6mo and doesn't need breast milk anymore. She went into a talk about what I should do when she is "gone", not to have any sluts, not to have my mom take care of the kids, Etc... .the usual diatribe. All of this she was saying over the phone with our kids in the background.

If another episode like this happens I will be forced to call CS. I am going to find that number. At that point I will have to tell them everything - come clean as it were - and put it into their hands. She may be deemed an unfit mother if I were to let them listen to some of my recordings of her explosions. It is getting worse it seems. This thing today was pretty bad, especially the threats of suicide today. I told her calmly with a SET that if I did think she was going to do that that I would have to call the police even if I was there with her, she backed down after that.
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« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2014, 12:00:57 AM »

Norrin--

It's so great to see you using the tools! Generally the instituting of new boundaries or change in the way you respond to the pwBPD will cause what is called an "extinction burst" where the other person has a flare-up of sorts in response--here's the link: https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=85479.0

I understand your concerns about her sounding unstable around the children, that would be worrying definitely, and they're the important one in this equation since they have no control over what happens around them. Have you talked to anyone on the Legal Board here to see if they have any suggestions? That can be found here: Leaving Board: Family law, divorce and custody. I know at this point you aren't talking about leaving, but perhaps someone there could give some input around this particular kind of issue.

Seeing improvements is great, the fact that you've put so much effort into trying to change the dynamics, but at the end of the day what you're looking for is what is best for your children and protecting them, right? This is really tough, and that's a fact. Plus it's a lot for you to keep dealing with the thought of "does she mean it this time when she threatens or not?" That has to be taking it out of you big time!

What are you able to do for yourself in the midst of all this? You need to be able to replenish yourself in order to keep things moving forward, so please do take care of yourself, whatever that looks like to you!

Who else can you talk to about the children and your wife's behavior and things she says? Is there any sort of counseling through your work or anything like that?

df99

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« Reply #14 on: September 24, 2014, 01:35:35 AM »

Thank you for that great reply. You are right.

I haven't been able to replenish... .It seems whatever I try I just get attacked over... .I started drinking apple cider, its delicious and there are lots of lnds out there, it gave me some enjoyment to go to the craft liquor store and get three different bottles to try over the weekend... .I was even rating and reviewing them with a friend online. But she would use it against me saying I am drinking too much like her dad, or that I get an extra luxury and its unfair. It is a similar story to playing video games online once in a while or going out with a friend for an hour.

So basically I got to the point where I couldn't play the validation and set game anymore... .In the end isn't this just walking on eggshells all over again? Well it seemed pike it because it wasggetting me nowhere.

So the next time she snapped at me for leaving crackers on the floor I stood my ground... I defended my actions using facts and logic... .Of course this led to an all out assault and before I knew it I was being choked. So I had a flashback to this time when I was a teenager and got choked unconscious and I made the decision never to let it happen again. So I punched her in the jaw... .Long story short she has a fractured jaw and my son saw the whole thing... .

So I should have made a police report but didn't. So I went back to validation and set for a bit... .But still it was worse... .There was a flash of it being ok but it quickly unraveled... .

This morning I called her and told her I was staying home from work. I had spent that morning listening to tape recordings of some of our fights and it was kind of surreal... .So I told her I wanted to talo, that I was waiting for her to get home and something needs to change. She insisted I go in to work but I put my foot down. Then I get a call from my work, she has dropped off my daughter and has left saying she is going to kill herself. So I phone the cops and the find her on the bridge. Luckily they stopped her and took her to the hospital. But they let her go and she came home. Right when she gets home she is yelling and screaming. I take the kids upstairs. She tells me to leave. She says she "asks" me to leave but I correct her saying no she is demanding it. She lunges at me almost hitting me. I call me dad to come get me. She freaks out more. Cops are called... .Now its midnight, they've taken her to the hospital, I'm home alone... .Mixed feelings. I feel so sorry for my children but I hope this is a turning point for the better... .Can't type anymore. Off to bed.
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« Reply #15 on: September 25, 2014, 09:07:13 PM »

Hi!

The issues of how to have boundaries around ways to do something for yourself would make a great question all on its own, so why don't you start a new topic with that? I think loads of people will be able to weigh in on that and give you some good ideas.

With the jaw-punching and bridge threat, it seems like things are maybe getting more out of control than they have been. If anything it seems it should be a sign that the family needs some professional intervention, right?

The validation tool is actually quite the opposite of walking on eggshells. When we're walking so carefully is generally when we're just plain afraid to say ANYthing for fear of setting the other person off. With validation we're listening to what they're saying and showing we understand where they are coming from, so it's an active communication. About the drinking apple ciders (my grown kids are into the indie brewing places too) validation could maybe be as simple as "Ah, I do see how it could worry you if I were to drink as much as your dad did," I think. It doesn't mean you agree that you ARE drinking too much, just that you understand where that fear comes from. There are lots of fears in a person suffering from BPD. It's a practice and consistency thing, like bowling or whatever skill we might want to improve.

What do you think you'd like to see happen next?
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« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2014, 05:16:20 AM »

Hi Norrin

You are getting involved in some areas here that can have on going legal ramifications for you.

Even though you are on the staying board it may be worth your while visiting the [L3] Family law, divorce, and custody Board   to further explore some of the potential legal ramifications of the unhealthy dynamics that are developing in your relationship.
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« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2014, 02:06:18 AM »

Good idea waverider. I was struggling with the idea of making a police report. She doesn't want me to the last time I asked.

Yes dreamflyer we do need professional intervention.

M has been admitted to the hospital and could be there over a month... .I have hit my low point earlier tonight but had my neighbors come over... .I am exhausted with D up around 2-4 am wanting to nurse and periodically afterwards due to teething mostly. I've got her using a bottle now. S usually sleeps through the night but if he does wake up he wants his mom. I guess its forced night weening for him and shouldnt last for too much longer.  I think they need a change of pace. Maybe hit up the zoo before we visit M tomorrow... .I need to find more time to be here on the forum. I'll do post more tomorrow
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« Reply #18 on: September 28, 2014, 05:41:09 AM »

Good idea waverider. I was struggling with the idea of making a police report. She doesn't want me to the last time I asked.

Yes dreamflyer we do need professional intervention.

M has been admitted to the hospital and could be there over a month... .I have hit my low point earlier tonight but had my neighbors come over... .I am exhausted with D up around 2-4 am wanting to nurse and periodically afterwards due to teething mostly. I've got her using a bottle now. S usually sleeps through the night but if he does wake up he wants his mom. I guess its forced night weening for him and shouldnt last for too much longer.  I think they need a change of pace. Maybe hit up the zoo before we visit M tomorrow... .I need to find more time to be here on the forum. I'll do post more tomorrow

Maybe this may provide the space you need so that you can look at the big picture more objectively.

At the moment you are probably living in an escalating cycle of action/reaction/counter reaction until reason goes out the window.

Knee jerk reactions can result in ramifications you would prefer not to be stuck with.
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« Reply #19 on: September 28, 2014, 11:30:25 AM »

N.R.

From what you post you must feel the weight all these issues bring. I have had similar,but not all, episodes with my uBPDh. Keep practicing "leaving it with them" & depersonalizing. That is so very hard when you see your M treating the kids the same way you have been treated, because you know how it makes you feel in the end and your instinct is to never want your kids to have to feel that way. Although you have the added unfortunate experience of growing up with someone who did the same, I did not.

Focus on the small amounts of progress you and M are making. When seeing the big picture becomes or makes me feel overwhelmed, I try to make my window smaller, dealing with one thing at a time, one day at a time.

My uBPDh just yesterday was changing brake pads on the car and when something didn't go right it was instantly my & our 18 yr old sons fault for "the way you two drive". I had to laugh in my head thinking, what? we should drive without using the brakes? I could tell then the deregulating was rearing it's ugly head, so I took a bike ride to the park.If I stayed there(our son was gone for the day) I would have continually became the target or trigger for what ever else may happen that day, and not just about the car. There always has to be blame for them,but  how we take that blame and what we do with it or how it affects us is totally up to us. It takes time,( I am not a patient person) and continued practice but things slowly do get better. Remember we can't change them, only ourselves, so take good car of yourself, for you and the kids:)
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« Reply #20 on: November 24, 2015, 11:05:35 PM »

I had to come back and give you all an update, in the hopes that my story can help others, and to say THANK YOU SO MUCH from the bottom of my heart! This forum helped me SOO much.

Here's what happened:

Child and Family Services told her she can't be alone with the kids. We developed a safety plan to slowly ween her back into the kids life. It hasn't really worked. She hasn't gotten any better. Now I've learned she is lying to me and she still has freak outs around the kids. She is dating another guy, she did so almost immediately after "she left me" and I'm almost sure he is now in the beginnings of the situation I was in. We didn't have any legal court order about how we share the kids. When CFS was involved she always went along with the plan, but now that they have closed the file she is being more difficult and she is hiding the truth. We have a court date next month, she filed for it, because she thinks she did such a good job at lying to me, she thinks she can get 50/50 custody. But she won't. I am finally going to get a court order against her, naming me as primary care giver, and it will blow her socks off. But it must happen, knowing what I know.

1) She lied to me about freaking out in front of the kids at her dads funeral. I found this out by talking to her family, who she ordered not to talk to me, and who were reluctant to do so but they know what is right.

2) She returned the kids to me and they reeked like marijuana. That is not cool. She tried to hide it. She lied and said no she wasn't smoking weed. I COULD SMELL IT ON THEIR HAIR AND SOCKS - so she had to admit it, but she lied, and there is no going back from that.

So just with these two pieces of information I have to conclude she is hiding more from me, and therefore, I cannot let this continue unabated.

ADVICE:

1) Do not let your partner do this around your kids. ALWAYS PUT YOUR KIDS FIRST. This means their emotional and physical well being is paramount. YOU MUST SEPARATE - for the kids well being!

2) Do not fear the government. I know its different from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, but seriously, the kids need intervention in a situation like mine. They can get over a temporary removal if that is required.

3) DOCUMENT THE ABUSE - GET A COURT ORDER! - this is so crucial. Once you get to the point where YOU ARE NOT HIDING THE FACTS ANY MORE (so much I think that people in my situation try to put on a facade that everything is okay when really it isn't), where you are awake to the danger to your children's psychology, you must act in legal terms also.

I just can't stress that enough: DO NOT BELIEVE THAT SET AND VALIDATION ARE ENOUGH> this is only a coping measure. The BPD sufferer needs serious intervention and serious therapy.

THE CHILDREN ARE MOST IMPORTANT - ALWAYS.

If you are in a relationship with someone with BPD the best thing you can do is seek professional help immediately and DO NOT hide any of the facts. It might seem like betrayal but trust me - the truth will set you free. It might be expensive, but maybe there is something you can do to help. In the end - it's not your responsibility to fix them. That is a co-dependency type of idea. It is your responsibility to take care of yourself and your children FIRST - and them second.


So that's it. That's the best advice I can give. I'm still not out of it yet, but if I had a court order in place it'd be so so so much easier. It's going to be about a month until I get that in place.
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