Blatant abuse and manipulation

[Cmjo]

The timing of his getting the lawyers letter wasnt perfect, it was on day 1 of his three day Monday to Weds stint with the kids D12 and S 10.  On Monday ringing me and launching into an attack. I put the phone down. Seconds later my daughter rang, under orders from him, with hm contining to attack in the background. Day two I rang my daughter and heard him say "ask her how much money she wants?" She said No.

On the Weds I start sending Sms to say can I collect children this evening. In term time, I would always pick them up from school on Thursday and from then till Monday they are with me. No rules now its holiday, and he refuses to speak to me to make any rules.

On Thurs am I expexted them to come to me in the morning. I ring and D12 says she wants to come to me. I hear exBPDbf shouting at her, angry that she wants to come to me. Predictably she insists so he brings her, but not S10.

All day Thurs I ring him but no reply. I leave three messages, that I will pick up S10 from karate. No reply. I go to karate and see exBPDbf outside the gym, looking smug. I drive home to avoid confrontation.

I send message saying  i saw him at gym, asking him to bring S10 to me after karate. I decide to go to his house. It breaks my heart to see S10 in the garden with the three kids of a friend of mine. They had been invited round for an impromptu dinner earlier on, I presumed as a shield. They hadnt been to our house for a year.it felt odd. My son stares at me with cold eyes that I recognise from his Dad. He is disappointed as he wants to play, he says to come back after dinner. My son is wearing a thick silver chain round his neck, like one his Dad wears,  makes him look like a criminal, when he takes on this persons its almost like his Dad is deliberately moulding him into a thug and a bully. Then I see the look and the vulnerability and the soft childish side of my 10 year old son.its so confusing him to know whether or not to put a wall up. This is subtle psychological abuse and its really disturbing to me. You have to be living it to really get how awful it is.

I ring my friend, the mother of the kids. She is shocked when I say Exbf is playing a sick game. She rings me when she goes to collect them so I can "turn up", she also arranges for her husband to turn up on a motorbike. No drama, S 10 comes home with me, my exBPDbf doesnt even dare to come out of the house. So relieved finally when we can go to sleep again under the same roof, I can breathe again till Monday comes round and decide what I should do.

He did say recently he wants me to disappear from his life and take the kids with me. Then he uses them as pawns like this. By Friday I am a wreck.

[Boss302]

The timing of his getting the lawyers letter wasnt perfect, it was on day 1 of his three day Monday to Weds stint with the kids D12 and S 10.  On Monday ringing me and launching into an attack. I put the phone down. Seconds later my daughter rang, under orders from him, with hm contining to attack in the background. Day two I rang my daughter and heard him say "ask her how much money she wants?" She said No.

On the Weds I start sending Sms to say can I collect children this evening. In term time, I would always pick them up from school on Thursday and from then till Monday they are with me. No rules now its holiday, and he refuses to speak to me to make any rules.

On Thurs am I expexted them to come to me in the morning. I ring and D12 says she wants to come to me. I hear exBPDbf shouting at her, angry that she wants to come to me. Predictably she insists so he brings her, but not S10.

All day Thurs I ring him but no reply. I leave three messages, that I will pick up S10 from karate. No reply. I go to karate and see exBPDbf outside the gym, looking smug. I drive home to avoid confrontation.

I send message saying  i saw him at gym, asking him to bring S10 to me after karate. I decide to go to his house. It breaks my heart to see S10 in the garden with the three kids of a friend of mine. They had been invited round for an impromptu dinner earlier on, I presumed as a shield. They hadnt been to our house for a year.it felt odd. My son stares at me with cold eyes that I recognise from his Dad. He is disappointed as he wants to play, he says to come back after dinner. My son is wearing a thick silver chain round his neck, like one his Dad wears,  makes him look like a criminal, when he takes on this persons its almost like his Dad is deliberately moulding him into a thug and a bully. Then I see the look and the vulnerability and the soft childish side of my 10 year old son.its so confusing him to know whether or not to put a wall up. This is subtle psychological abuse and its really disturbing to me. You have to be living it to really get how awful it is.

I ring my friend, the mother of the kids. She is shocked when I say Exbf is playing a sick game. She rings me when she goes to collect them so I can "turn up", she also arranges for her husband to turn up on a motorbike. No drama, S 10 comes home with me, my exBPDbf doesnt even dare to come out of the house. So relieved finally when we can go to sleep again under the same roof, I can breathe again till Monday comes round and decide what I should do.

He did say recently he wants me to disappear from his life and take the kids with me. Then he uses them as pawns like this. By Friday I am a wreck.

I feel for you. I see so much here that reminds me of my own experience. My BPDx used my kids against me like a battleaxe. She knew that of all the things I was proudest of, being a good dad was #1 on the list. So she used that against me. She kept our D17 out of school her entire freshman year of high school so she could be "homeschooled", and told me repeatedly that she didn't want to see me. I practically beat my head bloody against a wall trying to get this kid back into school (even tried to get the truancy court involved), but it was all thwarted repeated by dear old mom, who had temporary custody. This all ended when I got temporary (and then permanent) full time custody in February 2011, but by that time, the damage was done - for all intents and purposes, D17 lost her first year and a half of high school, and I forced her back into school, often having to drag her there myself versus having her take the bus.

Meanwhile, dear old mom had D13 spy on me, and go through my closet looking for things to incriminate me with (apparently the rumor was that I had a Playboy magazine in my closet... . the horror!). She had them make up stories about me to her attorney, who then used that against me in court. There was constant manipulation and alienation attempts.

And it HURT... . it hurt so damn badly. What hurt worst was my kids making up things about me to use in court. That was a betrayal - these aren't little kids, and they knew exactly what the consequences of their actions might have been (no visitation at all with me), and it took me a LONG time to get over it. I don't know if I'm 100% over it, three years after it happened.

Meanwhile, my attorney had me under strict orders to never speak my mind about their dear old mommy in their presence. Probably good legal advice, but it didn't help our relationships much - I ended up stuffing everything. I've only recently been able to say things to them like, "you know, when your mom does XYZ, it upsets me."

I was also blamed for all of dear old mom's problems, which included a filthy, disgusting house, and three evictions, all caused by her failure to pay. And for the first two, she was collecting $2100 a month in support from me - more than enough to find a small apartment. The second time, D13 came home to her mom's house to find all her stuff dumped on the front lawn, and dear old mommy off to the hospital because she'd done a bogus suicide threat to the cops in an attempt to stave off the eviction (didn't work). D13 proceeded to pummel my chest with her fists, telling me this was my fault and that she hated me. That was just great fun.

One thing to keep in mind is that a lot of what your kids are going through is actually typical in divorces - they're angry with you, and to an extent, they have a right. Make sure that you validate their anger and take it - don't explain your side of the story, or start blaming dad - just listen and take the anger. Make sure they know they're safe expressing it to you. If daddy is BPD, they're not safe expressing it to him - he'll paint them black, just like he does with you. And that is DEVASTATING to a child.  

You should also stop focusing on what he's doing, and be the best parent YOU can be. You can't do that when you're preoccupied with what he's doing with them, or to you. Obviously, true abuse needs to be confronted, but unfortunately, there's little you can do about the manipulation and the alienation campaign. Be the stable parent they need. If you are, then you'll probably end up with the bulk of custody, and that's what these kids probably need.

I would also HIGHLY suggest rock-solid court orders on custody and visitation times - this is an area that leads to constant conflict, particularly with BPDs. Make sure the kids know the COURT is saying that they need to be with you and dad at so-and-so time. It's the law, kids - we need to follow it. That'll take a lot of the wind out of your BPDx's sails when it comes to him doing drama scenes over when the kids are and aren't with him. He gets the kids when he gets them, and you get them when you get them. End of story.

The good news is that your kids are old enough to understand that dad's behavior isn't quite normal. My kids came to realize this, and also realized that her problems weren't really my fault.

And other good stuff happened - a month ago, when D17 graduated from high school on time (miraculously, after missing all that time). She barely cracked a 2.0 (and she's an honors-level student), but by God, she did it. She's starting college this fall.

Meanwhile, the day of her graduation, dear old mommy was up to her usual tricks (like berating the folks at my apartment complex for not giving her something that had been shipped to me for D17, then blaming me for it), and D13 looked me dead in the eyes and said, "I know why you divorced her - she's bat___ crazy."

Hard to describe how good that felt... . not just because of the vindication, but because D13 finally gets it - her mom is someone she should love, but she needs boundaries. And I've been able to help her with that by relating some of my experiences with her mother, and explaining how I handle her.

So... . in three years, she went from making up stuff about me to understanding why I left. Wow. This DOES get better. You CAN do this.

Hang in there and let us know how you're doing, OK?

[livednlearned]

You've mentioned in other posts that you're worried about your son. I just went through a similar concern with my own son, who is about to turn 13. He kept telling me that he didn't feel empathy anymore, which worried me for obvious reasons. A lot of people said it was normal for boys to go through something like this, and I read some things that made me think it was to be expected because of divorce etc.

But I finally went to see my therapist, and she validated my alarm. With her help, I wrote down what to say to S12. It was in keeping with what Richard Warshak says in Divorce Poison about being assertive with the truth. I have had a strong bond with S12 and spent majority time with him. He's also been in counseling. So a lot of important pieces were in place to talk to him candidly about his dad's behavior. Ignoring it would've been a disaster. During the last conversation with S12, he actually cried -- and even said he was relieved that he could feel like that.

Lundy Bancroft wrote a book called "When Dad Hurts Mom" that might also help. Your ex has probably modeled behaviors that your son associates with manhood, and even if your son hated the way his dad made him feel, or treated you, that's a really powerful role model to resist. If you allow him to treat you abusively, he will think this is how it works.

In my experience, letting it slide doesn't make it better.

[Cmjo]

I am reading and studying about how to deal with this, and I so agree the kids need to be able to talk about how they feel, I dont talk badly of their Daddy to them, but I do try to correct the untruths, like the lawyers letter isnt about money, its about when they should be with me and him, how they are going to spend the three month holidays, how we are going to divide up the major expenses, even in thenfuture when they want to learn to drive or go to university.

But, this is a big but, neither of them want to talk. If I ask a question or try to discuss somethng that happened, they both clam up. Al,ost like they have made a pact with each other. Or maybe with their dad. Part of why i left was my ex giving D12 the silent treatment for a week, apart from calling her a spy because she rang me crying that he was raging at her. They know Im available to talk and will keep trying to talk, will this get through eventually. I dont want to comment, I just want to validate and listen. Dont want them to bottle it up, but I think the reality is they lived for years with this raging conflict with me and their Dad and when I was in the relationship I was so busy trying to survive it myself I didnt spend enough time trying to talk to them about dealing with it. Because I didnt know how to, I had to remove myself from it to understand that.

Therapy is not a real solution, its not so much part of the culture here, and I know they would refuse to go, and would find it traumatic.

Their emotions are roller coasters, yesterday when I pciked S 10 up from his friends he was at first cold and angry, then over the course of the evening got playful and riotous with his sister and we had fun, then ended up that they both wanted to sleep in my bed, D12 put her headphones on to go to sleep with her music, S10 kept saying he wanted mummy and I cuddled him to sleep.

[livednlearned]

neither of them want to talk. If I ask a question or try to discuss somethng that happened, they both clam up. Al,ost like they have made a pact with each other. Or maybe with their dad. Part of why i left was my ex giving D12 the silent treatment for a week, apart from calling her a spy because she rang me crying that he was raging at her. They know Im available to talk and will keep trying to talk, will this get through eventually. I dont want to comment, I just want to validate and listen. Dont want them to bottle it up, but I think the reality is they lived for years with this raging conflict with me and their Dad and when I was in the relationship I was so busy trying to survive it myself I didnt spend enough time trying to talk to them about dealing with it. Because I didnt know how to, I had to remove myself from it to understand that.

I understand -- my son was the same way. He didn't want to talk about anything. I don't know if this is helpful -- our kids, our situations, our BPD partners (the severity, the types of symptoms) are all so different. So I'll just relate some things that happened in my situation with S12, and maybe it's useful for your circumstance.

I took S12 to a fun outing at church (he hates to go). It was a massive reverse game of hide and seek, and every single kid there had a blast. They got to take over the church, there was junk food, and everyone was being inclusive. S12 sat in a room and pouted the entire time. I was so irritated with him, and told him he needed to figure out how to get himself to a place where he could join the other kids. We weren't going home.

When we finally left after the event was over, we were both steaming mad in the car. I lost my temper -- which takes a lot, and when I lose it, I'm still very contained -- and said that he never learned how to socialize like men do because his father never left the house with us. S12 got furious and yelled at me to never say anything bad about his father. That hit me right in the chest, but I was still mad, and said, "I'm not going to pretend that bad things haven't happened. I'm not going to pretend your dad was involved in our lives. It had an impact on me too, not just you." Not the greatest thing to say, but whatever.

When I talked to my therapist about it, she said, "It's good that he got angry about that -- you made him look at something he doesn't want to look at. He tried to deflect it with anger. There is a nest of complicated feelings there that he doesn't know how to process, that's why he got angry at you. He knows what you're saying is true but is afraid of how painful it feels."

I'm sharing this because sometimes we conflict-avoidant types tiptoe around anger because: BPD. We have it in our lives and it's the last thing we want to stir up. But with kids who don't want to talk, sometimes their anger is the outer layer of their deeper feelings.

The hard part is helping them through that anger in a way that doesn't push them away. It didn't take much for me to get S12 angry. He also didn't know what to do with me when he felt that way (we were in the car, so he could only stare out the window). It took me a few days to circle back with him because I didn't see my therapist for another day or so. She said it is never too late for a do-over, so I waited until we were in the car again and had a long conversation with him about his dad. Captive audience -- it's how it has to be with S12 otherwise he will walk away or go straight to his room.

In the car, I talked about his dad. Your situation might be different, but for me, it was long overdue to tell S12 that there was something seriously wrong with his dad. I told him some people get sickness like cancer or they break a bone, and we can see it and treat it with medicine. His dad had a sickness that made him the way he is, and that it wasn't just that he drank too much, although that was pretty serious in its own way. S12 was hanging onto every word, but he didn't say much. Eventually we got home and before we got out of the car, I said, "I know you don't like to talk about this stuff, but I'm going to keep doing it. We can't pretend there isn't something going on." He went up to his room, but came back down 10 minutes later and talked for an hour. A lot of it was him venting and getting things off his chest. He was mad about a lot of things, but mostly he looked like a sad and scared kid. I told him that we needed to let some steam off the feelings we have, that holding them in just makes us angry, and I don't want to feel that way.

I also did something risky that ended up working out ok. I brought up something his dad told me -- I figured it was a lie. It was just something innocuous. His dad had said in court that S12 didn't want to come home, and that one night he clung to N/BPDx's neck and didn't want him to go make dinner. He wanted to stay with his dad -- N/BPDx said he was alarmed because S12 wasn't usually like this. So they sat and he held S12 and comforted him until he was ready to leave and come back to me. That just isn't S12. At all.

So I told S12 that, and he was furious. My therapist told me it was exactly what needed to happen. S12 now understands how it feels when N/BPDx tells lies about me. Our kids don't react to the lies about us like they do when the lie is about them.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that lots of us tiptoe around feelings and the truth because we're careful, cautious, and conflict-avoidant people. Sometimes, though, we create these stony-faced looks on our kids' faces just as much as the BPD parent does.

I never thought of it this way until working with my therapist, but I was teaching my son that we don't talk about his dad. That's exactly what we need to talk about with them. The key -- and this is critically important -- is to make sure at all times that the goal is to help our kids with their feelings. It isn't about slamming the other parent. It's also not about taking care of ourselves. My son has an incredible radar for when I emotionally shift the conversation to me when we talk.

I also learned that when I'm in these dicey conversations, if I feel confused or don't know what to say, the best thing is to either say that, or ask S12 a question so I can clarify what he might be feeling or thinking.

Your son is at an age when he is trying on manhood to see how it works. I think the ages between 10-13 are critical for boys, so you're catching this at a good time. Don't be afraid if he gets angry at you. And don't be afraid if he shuts you out -- he's listening, even if he doesn't know the best way to respond. And if he hurts your feelings, you can tell him. If his dad does something mean and throws you under the bus, don't let it slide. Tell him that when his dad is mean like that, it makes you feel bad, and it looks like the kids feel bad too. Why do they think he does that? Does he understand that when he's mean or angry like that, people feel scared and don't want to be around him?

You're going to make mistakes, and that's ok. You can think about it overnight and realize you didn't handle it ok. The next day, tell the kids, "I don't feel good about how I handled things yesterday. You said you were angry, and I tried to make you feel better. But it's ok to feel angry. It's not ok to be mean, but anger is ok. It took me a long time to forgive your dad and it's not right that I expect you to feel that way." Or whatever the issue is.

For a lot of us, we come from families where it wasn't ok to feel vulnerable. If your kids can't be vulnerable at their dads, they have to be able to feel that way with you. Otherwise they aren't getting it. And that's the key to emotional health -- to be vulnerable. We're not perfect, we hurt, we feel sad, we want to be loved, and held, and comforted. We don't know how to do everything! Model that for your kids. "I'm trying to figure out the right thing to do. Sometimes I make mistakes, but it's ok to make mistakes. And it's important to talk to people we love about those mistakes, like I'm doing with you right now."

Sorry for the long response! I'm working through the same issues and starting to see how I've been conditioned to tip-toe around everyone's feelings, including my son's.

[Cmjo]

Hello and thank you. Thats just the sprt of advice and encouragement I need. I agree talking in the  car is the best way!

Yes I realise I am a conflict avoider. So I give off the vibe that Im not quite comfortable talking about it all. I grew up in  a house of conflict and tension where from age 11 through to 18 my mum was also battling cancer, she lost the battle. Noone asked me how I felt. I retreated into my shell and am still in there. I was moody all the time.

I have double the problem as both my son and daughter need to talk, so I have to get each alone and work out the right thing to say to each of them. My D 12 has the added problem of being on the end of worse emotional abuse from my ex. As they are with me about 4 days a week I also have to let them chill out and have fun with me, its always hard to fine the right moment... .

I have said that their dad isnt well, but my son responds, as my ex used to do, that IT IS ME that is mentally ill and I need to be hospitalized. Plus there is no diagnosis, other than his current terapist hinting at the fear of abandonment and the need for cognitive therapy, noone i  this country has ever mentioned the BPD word. He went once to a personality disorder clinic I found, but then said it was too expensive so his enabling Dad found a nice lady therapist who wouldnt be too tough on him. I think  hes going to give it up now he realises nothing is going to make me go back to him... . !

[livednlearned]

I have said that their dad isnt well, but my son responds, as my ex used to do, that IT IS ME that is mentally ill and I need to be hospitalized.

If this happens again, what if you say, "What about my behavior makes you think I have a mental illness?"

He is probably parroting his father, who is projecting. Asking him to think about why he believes you have a mental illness will help him see where this comes from. "Have you ever gotten angry at someone when you make a mistake? Instead of thinking, Wow, I made a mistake. I'll try next time to figure out how to do things different. You think, I made a mistake and I'm embarrassed, so I'm going to blame someone else. I think that is what people do when they feel ashamed. I'm not sure why people who have a mental illness feel ashamed though."

Or, "If I had a mental illness, I would go see a doctor and get treatment, because then I would feel better. There are a lot of very intelligent, very capable people with a mental illness (he might be surprised if you name famous people, or sports stars, etc.) and I'm not sure why people treat them as though they aren't people. Maybe if people weren't mean, more people would get help, just like when someone breaks a bone they get help."

Another response could be, "You seem angry when you say that. What makes you angry?"

It gets easier the more you do it. Every time he says something that stops you in your track -- maybe makes you feel guilty, or stumped, or angry, or frustrated -- think of a question that gets him to reflect on why he is asking or saying or doing whatever it is he does.

He needs you to redirect his behavior back to him, so he can reflect on it. If he gives you an opening, you swoop in and provide a healthy counter point to whatever it is he's learning from his dad.

I think kids spend a huge amount of time trying to figure out who is the more powerful parent. Anger and cruelty seems more powerful, but it isn't. It's just bullying. Your task is to counter any display of bullying behavior with sensible emotional healthiness. Asking questions and validation is an excellent place to start, and getting your kids to focus on their behavior, figuring out for themselves what is true -- that's gold.

I like Bill Eddy's ":)on't Alienate the Kids" because it gave me a huge  aha moment about how I could offset N/BPDx's behavior by being the person that modeled flexible thinking, moderate behavior, and managed emotions. Let N/BPD be his turbulent self, but me, I was going to be this other person and S12 could choose which way worked best. It's not very effective to be a bully -- it's lonely and you can't ever let your guard down. The alternate way is more vulnerable, but more connected. It's a much truer form of power.

[Boss302]

But, this is a big but, neither of them want to talk. If I ask a question or try to discuss somethng that happened, they both clam up. Al,ost like they have made a pact with each other. Or maybe with their dad. Part of why i left was my ex giving D12 the silent treatment for a week, apart from calling her a spy because she rang me crying that he was raging at her. They know Im available to talk and will keep trying to talk, will this get through eventually. I dont want to comment, I just want to validate and listen. Dont want them to bottle it up, but I think the reality is they lived for years with this raging conflict with me and their Dad and when I was in the relationship I was so busy trying to survive it myself I didnt spend enough time trying to talk to them about dealing with it. Because I didnt know how to, I had to remove myself from it to understand that.

Therapy is not a real solution, its not so much part of the culture here, and I know they would refuse to go, and would find it traumatic.

Same thing happened with my kids - they "clammed up" too. And not all of that is due to their disordered dad - even the most amicable split-ups are traumatic to kids. In a way, you've betrayed them by leaving their dad, even if you did it for all the right reasons and with the best  intentions. You desperately want your kids to know you weren't trying to hurt them, but they hurt anyway. That's going to take time to heal.

I think you need to focus on their feelings, not "setting the record straight" about untruths. Perhaps say, "this is hard for all of us, and hard for your dad too, and in situations like this, sometimes people say and do things they don't really mean." This validates their feelings, and makes it more likely that at some point, they will open up to you.

Eventually, they'll "get" what's going on with dad. Four years after I left my BPDx, the kids are starting to want to listen to "my side of the story," which I have begun telling them. And, dear God, they're going through all the same things I went through with her. And they've opened up to me about what's happening at their mom's house (particularly D13). It helped that I never mentioned any of this to my BPDx at all, so the purpose of the communication isn't to cause a fight or align the kids with me, but to simply understand and validate what they're going through.

That's a HUGE change from four years ago. But it took a lot of time and pain to get to where we are now. Both kids were also in therapy during this time, so they learned lots of coping and communications skills. I know you're saying therapy isn't an option, but I'd definitely recommend it for their sake.

I think you just need to focus like a damn laser on validating their feelings and building an environment where they know they can trust you to simply listen, for listening's sake. They'll "get" what's up with their dad before too long.

[livednlearned]

But, this is a big but, neither of them want to talk. If I ask a question or try to discuss somethng that happened, they both clam up. Al,ost like they have made a pact with each other. Or maybe with their dad. Part of why i left was my ex giving D12 the silent treatment for a week, apart from calling her a spy because she rang me crying that he was raging at her. They know Im available to talk and will keep trying to talk, will this get through eventually. I dont want to comment, I just want to validate and listen. Dont want them to bottle it up, but I think the reality is they lived for years with this raging conflict with me and their Dad and when I was in the relationship I was so busy trying to survive it myself I didnt spend enough time trying to talk to them about dealing with it. Because I didnt know how to, I had to remove myself from it to understand that.

Therapy is not a real solution, its not so much part of the culture here, and I know they would refuse to go, and would find it traumatic.

I think you need to focus on their feelings, not "setting the record straight" about untruths. Perhaps say, "this is hard for all of us, and hard for your dad too, and in situations like this, sometimes people say and do things they don't really mean." This validates their feelings, and makes it more likely that at some point, they will open up to you.

Eventually, they'll "get" what's going on with dad.

Setting the record straight about untruths is about more than correcting what the other parent said. It's also about shining the light on what the kids feel -- that's the most true thing for them. That's why it's good to ask them why they feel that way, or why they think that.

If there is something flat out not true being said, and the kids are parroting it or asking about it, I don't think it's ever too early to correct it. Calm, objective, to the point, no explanation.

They need to learn to do the same when someone accuses them of bs.

[Cmjo]

Thanks again, maybe sharing with all of you helped me to have the ground-breaking conversation with S10 that happened today. We managed to talk for the first time in a year. It started as he was angry about something like the TV, I asked what was making him so angry, to stop shouting and me and acting rude and vulgar. I said he should respect me. He said the only lerson he respects is his father. He went and flopped on the sofa and I went over and sat near him. He suddenly said you thought it was going to all get better didnt you, by leaving, look how wrong you were, its just worse... .

I told him again I felt I had to leave, I was sad and tired of Daddy being angry and shouting. I said there were things that had happened that made me so hurt, like when we were on holiday in the UK WITH MY FAMILY AND AFTER A BLAZING ROW HE GOT ON A PLANE AND WENT HOME, After that, when we got back I tried to talk about it ,but he got angry and shouted. I probablybgave hum a few more details about bad incidents than ever before. I cried and said its not true that it was all my fault. I reminded him of another time Daddy had got angry and walked out himself, for four days I didnt know where he was, then he had come back and pretended nothing happened.

As predicted, when I tried to play the "he's not well line" it was thrown back at me, and so I said what makes you think I have problems? He couldnt answer. And I feel he is too young and hurting too much for me to announce his father is definitely mentally ill, when there in fact is no diagnosis. So we moved on.

He said I had asked Daddy for maintenance and want to take his money. I said that was the standard letter a lawyer wrote. He said Mummy there is another thing  i have to say that you just cant comment on... . I had taken money from him and not paid him back. i said I am going to pay it back, when I have sold my apartment which is going through now.

Maybe the lawyer would help us agree on that. I said the lawyer needs to help us work out when you will be with me and when with Daddy. He said that is already agreed on I said not for the school holidays, and that I had tried to pick him up several times on Thursday but Daddy hadnt let me. He said maybe he hadnt received the messages.

He said Daddy believed  i have a new boyfriend. Daddy had told them all about finding me on a dating website last year, said  i wss looking for a new Dad. I said maybe mummy and Daddy would have new Partners one day. I dont have a new boyfriend but have been on dates, but did not find anyone like  i had loved Daddy, to have a serious relationship with. (Note to self... . if that comes up again I will say if I do have a new boyfriend who I really like, I will tell him and not hide it).

. I hope he finds a girlfriend one day he can have a good partnership with. I said many couple separate, while others are together forever. I said I couldnt stay in a relationship where I wss sad because I wssnt being treated right.

So I was thinking of you all as we spoke, so glad stuff was finally coming out, I gave him a hug and he held me too, he seemed sad for a few hours afterwards, processing it all. I hope it helped us take a step forward, I guess the important thing is we do talk. I said to him I had never had a conversation like that with Daddy! Daddy would blow a fuse a few seconds in. I only eealised after a couple of years of meeting him, at first he was quiet and fentle and caring, I think now he was quiet because he was desperately holding it all in so I didnt notice what was bubbling underneath!

This afternoon we went to the pool, his Dad rang, his Dad asked to speak to me! And asked if he could help look after the kids in the next few days! Progress ... .

[livednlearned]

I agree -- the fact that he is talking to you is a good sign. I had a lot of conversations that I then had to talk to my therapist about, and she would listen and give me feedback. These conversations don't ever go perfectly, so this isn't criticism, just feedback channeled through similar experiences I had with my T when she listened to me retell conversations with S12.

We managed to talk for the first time in a year. It started as he was angry about something like the TV, I asked what was making him so angry, to stop shouting and me and acting rude and vulgar. I said he should respect me. He said the only lerson he respects is his father. He went and flopped on the sofa and I went over and sat near him. He suddenly said you thought it was going to all get better didnt you, by leaving, look how wrong you were, its just worse... .

He might be talking about himself here. This is what my therapist helped me with -- kids care about themselves, and kids with disordered parents are starved for someone to recognize how they feel. It's not a mistake to assume he is talking about you, but when these conversations happen, keep decoding what your son is saying. Address both if you aren't sure -- "Are you saying that it's worse for you?" Let him say if it is.

Or, if he means it's worse for you, "It is not worse for me. It is different, and I am adjusting, but I know this was the right decision. I won't let people be mean to me. Your dad could not stop shouting and yelling and being mean to me. Now I have my own place where I can spend time with you and your sister, and that is better." This tells him that you are learning to stand up to people who are mean. It's a powerful message to your kid.

As predicted, when I tried to play the "he's not well line" it was thrown back at me, and so I said what makes you think I have problems? He couldnt answer. And I feel he is too young and hurting too much for me to announce his father is definitely mentally ill, when there in fact is no diagnosis. So we moved on.

I think your son knew that the conversation had become about you -- you cried, and that can scare young kids. He might've felt angry because someone should be taking care of you and your sad feelings, but he's young and doesn't know what to do, and it should be the opposite way. Whenever these conversations put our kids in the position of being young judges (is mom ill, or is dad ill... . ) they are going to feel incompetent and for some kids, afraid. Your son doesn't like to feel sad or afraid, so he gets angry. Anger is almost always a secondary emotion, so he's stuffing much more difficult feelings for him. Our job in these situations is to figure out what the primary feelings are, and to help our kids manage them. He doesn't even know how to do that for himself, so seeing you cry just makes him angry -- underneath, I bet he's scared.

One thing that also took me a while to learn -- it isn't that someone is ill that's the problem. It's the fact that they won't get help. That's the message we want our kids to understand, especially if they become ill. "I believe there is something seriously wrong with the way daddy is angry, and left us for days at a time. But the reason I left isn't because he is ill, it's because he won't take responsibility for his behavior." Kids don't need details. This person was mean to you, and you left. They will be much better off in their own primary relationships later in life if you model that message for them.

He said I had asked Daddy for maintenance and want to take his money. I said that was the standard letter a lawyer wrote. He said Mummy there is another thing  i have to say that you just cant comment on... . I had taken money from him and not paid him back. i said I am going to pay it back, when I have sold my apartment which is going through now.

In situations where kids get involved in the money and legal business, it's a good idea to just ask them how they felt when their dad said that. Your ex is dragging them into the details, and then the kids are dragging you deeper. The issue is that this is really upsetting for the kids to be talking about -- the boundaries are blown, and they feel it. Keep redirecting things back to them -- "That must make you feel upset when daddy says that. I'm trying to imagine how I would feel if someone said that to me. Maybe you can tell me what you feel worried about."

He said Daddy believed  i have a new boyfriend. Daddy had told them all about finding me on a dating website last year, said  i wss looking for a new Dad. I said maybe mummy and Daddy would have new Partners one day. I dont have a new boyfriend but have been on dates, but did not find anyone like  i had loved Daddy, to have a serious relationship with. (Note to self... . if that comes up again I will say if I do have a new boyfriend who I really like, I will tell him and not hide it).

Again, ask S10 how he feels when his dad says those things. This one is almost definitely about S10. Whether he realizes it or not, he feels he has to be the man in the family when his dad isn't there. He's going to handle things ok until a man shows up to try and displace him.

My ex pounded hard on this topic -- it came up a lot for me. I did what you did, and tried to deflect and set the record straight. But it's ultimately about how our son's feel. "How do you feel when daddy says that? Are you worried that I might not be here for you if I date someone?"  If you have strong values about when you date, and how you plan to introduce them, then say so. It will comfort your S10. Another thing he is probably thinking about -- when mom dates, dad gets angry and S10 has to deal with that anger. So you dating and talking about it openly might not reassure him. He probably doesn't want you to date (threat to his role, which he barely understands) and might feel worried about how his dad is going to behave, which trickles down to S10. You can tell him that you are doing to date, because that's what grown ups do, but unless you meet someone special, the person is not going to be involved in the kids lives. When and if that happens, you will sit down with the kids and talk about it as a family. Or whatever it is you think is best.

I do think we mess our kids up if we date too quickly -- they need to work through the roller coaster of feelings they're dealing with, and a new person accelerates things and can stir up lots of emotional chaos. If you don't feel steady in helping them through the emotional storm, then they'll have no one to help them process. I waited 2 years, and then dated someone for a year before introducing him to S12. I didn't hide him for the year we dated (he would stop by to walk dogs, so S12 saw him), but I didn't invite him into the house to meet S12 and have dinner with us until after a year.

It's never too late to revisit these conversations, so don't ever feel that you blew it. Like you said, if the kids are talking, that's an excellent sign. Afterward, ask yourself if the conversation was about you, or if it was about how the kids felt. It's super easy to think it's about us (after all, the kids are talking about us), but more often than not, it isn't. They're trying to sort out messy feelings without even knowing that's what they're doing. We have to be the ones that listen between the lines.  

Our job is to validate them, and the reason for that is that we want them to learn what they feel, and to feel heard by someone who loves them, and to trust that those feelings are whole and appropriate and real. It's more powerful for them to feel that their feelings are real -- more powerful than bullying and being mean. This is what you're teaching them. How to deal with negative feelings in healthy ways.

I've had to revisit every conversation I've had with S12. Usually I tell him I was thinking about our conversation and realized that I made a big mistake. I realized I thought I knew what he was thinking or feeling, but didn't. When he said xyz, what did that mean? Almost always, S12 has been willing to open things back up and set things straight. These do-overs aren't often long conversations. And they teach S12 that this stuff isn't perfect, and that I make mistakes, and it's ok to make mistakes with people who love each other.

When all else fails, keep asking questions. That's my motto