Should we put a stop to this?

[Nope]

In court a couple of weeks ago it came up that we were recording phone conversations between my dear fiance and the kid's BPD mom. It also came up that certain disturbing and upsetting things were overheard in phone conversation between BPD mom and kids when they've been with us.

We just got the kids for the summer and D11 is now suddenly taking the phone into the bathroom and turning on the water when she talks to BPD mom on the phone. I'm totally at a loss on this one. On one hand, the kid should be able to have private conversations with her mom. (Maybe?) On the other hand this is new behavior and certainly seems to reflect that she was told things she shouldn't have been. Do we address it? Do we put a stop to it and tell her she has to take calls in her room instead? Do we deny private phone contact all together because it's clear this little girl is being manipulated and PA is clearly a concern?

[ForeverDad]

She wouldn't think to do this if not for (probably) information about the court testimony and (almost certainly) instructions from her mother.

I don't know what to suggest if there hasn't been a decision issued yet.  The GAL probably hasn't been released from services by the court yet, inform the GAL and your lawyer and ask for advice.

With the GAL solidly on the side of father having majority time, it's unlikely the court will give the children much voice in asking to choose which parent to live with.  When they're older and are able to drive there's a risk they may vote with their feet but until then the professionals should be solidly on the children's side - which works out to be the father's side.

What my ex did in early allegations (when our son was 4-5 years old) was to allege "My son told me... . "  Apparently she couldn't bring herself to out and out lie at first.  Over time that consistently failed but it still triggered concern by his child therapist, hospital ER visits and even rose to the level of CPS investigation a few times.

[gherkins]

Are you in a one-party state?  Can you install an app on the phone to automatically record the phone calls so your daughter still gets her privacy during the call but you have documentation down the road?

[DreamGirl]

If it were me, I'd ask my stepdaughter "what's up with you going in the bathroom and turning on the water?"

It's a "right" for a kiddo to be able to have a conversation with the other parent in private. I think this is more about her feeling safe in being able to do that in your house.

Not allowing it might be considered your own form of PA. (We all tend to battle PA with our own PA)

 

[livednlearned]

If it were me, I'd ask my stepdaughter "what's up with you going in the bathroom and turning on the water?"

This would be my approach too -- to see if you can feel her out and gauge if this is something she wants to do, or if her mom is coaching her. Either way, it would be good to air this out. Something is going on around trust... .

[david]

I think finding a way to discuss this with her in a non threatening manner (in her eyes) is extremely important. Listening and asking questions helps you figure out what the issue is. Of course, you may get an emotional response because mom is coaching her. That would be a loyalty issue between her and mom and you need to figure out how to address that.

I have SS's from my xBPDw first marriage. When we first got together one of my ss's did a lot of things because he felt a loyalty to his dna dad. I didn't take it personally and addressed each incident in the way I thought best for him. Over time he began to trust me more and realized I wasn't trying to replace his father. We have a great relationship now.

Talking to the GAL is a good idea.

[Nope]

Update: We never spoke to her about it because it hasn't happened again. So we are just going to leave it alone for now. Yesterday I was the only one home with the kids and I asked her if she wanted to call her mom and tell her about her first day of camp. She was looking me in the eye very hard trying to figure out what the "right" answer was. I felt so bad for her about the emotional games her BPD mom plays. We only see the kids about eight weeks a year due to distance and their mom is horribly alienating about the phone. BPD mom tells the kids they should call their father as a loyalty test and makes it know she is happy with them when they refuse. SD10 was looking at me like she was trying to figure out if  was a loyalty test. I tried my best to get her to understand that I really did think it was a good idea for her to give her mom a call. But in the end she settled on sending a couple of texts.

At the time I chalked it up to her just being too tired to want to talk to anyone. They aren't used to spending full days running around like they did at camp. But then when their dad got home they couldn't wait to tell him everything about camp.

So I guess they are going to be more "loyal" to whoever they are with and it's going to be work to express to them that we don't require that from them. Either that, or she didn't want to call her because she didn't want to do the running water thing and didn't want to get in trouble with her mom for not doing it.

[david]

Our two boys were 4.5 and 8 when ex left. Ex used serious alienation tactics on them in the beginning. Listening, validating, and not reacting to what they did worked the best for me. Our oldest son started opening up around 9.5 years old. I knew the younger one was listening to see what would happen. It took a few months but our oldest one changed to a more relaxed demeanor when with me. He was able to talk to me about anything on his mind not fearing a negative reaction from me. It took another year before our youngest opened up. They are 15 and 11 now and talk to me about whatever is on their minds.

From listening to them I have learned they have little interaction with their mom when they are with her. We just went through a custody eval and the report came in last week. The evaluator said the same thing in his report. The boys were individually asked to describe a typical day with their mom and a typical day with their dad. Their description when with their mom did not include anything with her in it. Their description with me was a typical family day.

It takes time for the kids to learn how to "live" in two very different environments and feel safe.

[mywifecrazy]

I think the best course of action for you and the kids Father is to be the pest parent/step parents you can be. Don't put any focus on the kids BPD Mother. Even if they do the running water. Just let them know by your actions that Your Home is a safe and loving environment for them. You play right into the BPD Mothers hands when you are worried about what she is doing, besides her actions are out of your control. The only thing you can control is yourself. Make your words and actions a source of comfort and stability to the kids. That's what they need the most. Kids are resilient and smart, they WILL see the truth EVENTUALLY even in the midst of manipulation by their Mom.

These kids need you as a STABLE step Mom and their STABLE Father to be the safe people they can RELY on and your home as the SAFE PLACE they can relax and be themselves when they are with you.  Remember, their Moms house is probably full of drama and kids are smart and will get tired of it... . Hang in There!

[livednlearned]

I think the best course of action for you and the kids Father is to be the pest parent/step parents you can be. Don't put any focus on the kids BPD Mother. Even if they do the running water. Just let them know by your actions that Your Home is a safe and loving environment for them. You play right into the BPD Mothers hands when you are worried about what she is doing, besides her actions are out of your control. The only thing you can control is yourself. Make your words and actions a source of comfort and stability to the kids. That's what they need the most. Kids are resilient and smart, they WILL see the truth EVENTUALLY even in the midst of manipulation by their Mom.

These kids need you as a STABLE step Mom and their STABLE Father to be the safe people they can RELY on and your home as the SAFE PLACE they can relax and be themselves when they are with you.  Remember, their Moms house is probably full of drama and kids are smart and will get tired of it... . Hang in There!

I don't know MWC... . I mean, yes to everything you said. And Nope has good instincts, both parents do, from following a while, it seems to me they're doing everything you mentioned. But sometimes you need to get in your kids' heads and guide them proactively. The anxiety can be intense for them, and they can develop coping mechanisms that really mess them up. My son was on a troubling trajectory and I'm grateful my T helped me get inside his head. It was a huge correction and everyone in his life noticed a change in him. Before that, I was being way too passive, thinking that if I was stable and fair and loving and kind that everything would work out. Parenting with someone who has BPD is intensely nuanced... . things aren't always intuitive.

[mywifecrazy]

I think the best course of action for you and the kids Father is to be the pest parent/step parents you can be. Don't put any focus on the kids BPD Mother. Even if they do the running water. Just let them know by your actions that Your Home is a safe and loving environment for them. You play right into the BPD Mothers hands when you are worried about what she is doing, besides her actions are out of your control. The only thing you can control is yourself. Make your words and actions a source of comfort and stability to the kids. That's what they need the most. Kids are resilient and smart, they WILL see the truth EVENTUALLY even in the midst of manipulation by their Mom.

These kids need you as a STABLE step Mom and their STABLE Father to be the safe people they can RELY on and your home as the SAFE PLACE they can relax and be themselves when they are with you.  Remember, their Moms house is probably full of drama and kids are smart and will get tired of it... . Hang in There!

I don't know MWC... . I mean, yes to everything you said. And Nope has good instincts, both parents do, from following a while, it seems to me they're doing everything you mentioned. But sometimes you need to get in your kids' heads and guide them proactively. The anxiety can be intense for them, and they can develop coping mechanisms that really mess them up. My son was on a troubling trajectory and I'm grateful my T helped me get inside his head. It was a huge correction and everyone in his life noticed a change in him. Before that, I was being way too passive, thinking that if I was stable and fair and loving and kind that everything would work out. Parenting with someone who has BPD is intensely nuanced... . things aren't always intuitive.

I hear ya LnL and I agree with you too!  It's a fine line we walk as NON's parenting our kids to try to keep them from being manipulated by their BPD parent. I've also seen the direct approach backfire as well, especially if coming from the step parent. I am in no way advocating being passive but rather being AGGRESSIVE in a positive loving way. I just think it's better to be direct when the kids approach you about the X.  I guess I'm blessed as both my kids are NOT afraid to talk to me about anything whereas they don't approach their Mom much because she is being very selfish and putting her new r/s (victim) ahead of her own kids. There are times when I sit back and let them come to me with questions and other times when I have to initiate discussions with them because of my uBPDxw actions that are hurting them. 

The bottom line and what I've noticed is that they see who puts them first in their life and it's ME! They see that and I DONT have to sell,them on this fact. As a matter of fact my older son (14) has told me ":)ad, you don't need to tell us all the good things you do for us and all the screwed up things Mom does, we see it and we know" He also told me how it hurts him to be reminded of how screwed up,his Mom is and how she has abandoned him!

I also must admit that I'm blessed as I have primary custody of my sons so they are with me 90% of the time? That is Huge!

I'm sure it's more difficult for you Nope as you and the kids Father don't see the kids as much as their BPD mother does?  I feel for you!  Just don't let the BPD Mother change who you are!

Hang in there!

[ForeverDad]

The bottom line and what I've noticed is that they see who puts them first in their life and it's ME! They see that and I DONT have to sell them on this fact. As a matter of fact my older son (14) has told me ":)ad, you don't need to tell us all the good things you do for us and all the screwed up things Mom does, we see it and we know" He also told me how it hurts him to be reminded of how screwed up his Mom is and how she has abandoned him!

Children vary from one to the next.  Some are stronger than others.  Sadly, some are more engulfed and overwhelmed than others.  For Nope, at this point in the midst of an intense parenting case, she's dealing with a greatly influenced girl barely into her teens.  In the past, having half the summer to parent her let the kids relax into their stable parenting, then it was back to their mother for the next 46 weeks to be reprogrammed and overwhelmed.  I don't think they can count - yet - on the kids to be insightful enough to appreciate their normal, reasonable and loving parenting.

[Nope]

I don't know MWC... . I mean, yes to everything you said. And Nope has good instincts, both parents do, from following a while, it seems to me they're doing everything you mentioned. But sometimes you need to get in your kids' heads and guide them proactively. The anxiety can be intense for them, and they can develop coping mechanisms that really mess them up. My son was on a troubling trajectory and I'm grateful my T helped me get inside his head. It was a huge correction and everyone in his life noticed a change in him. Before that, I was being way too passive, thinking that if I was stable and fair and loving and kind that everything would work out. Parenting with someone who has BPD is intensely nuanced... . things aren't always intuitive.

That's exactly what we are dealing with for S9. He is the "all bad" child and unless we can get him into therapy and figure out how to get into his head he is on the path to becoming his mother. We can be as loving and as stable as possible, but that alone isn't going to stop what is happening in his head, even if he does start living here full time. Too much damage has been done and being passive with him won't undo it. He will literally stand there, eyes filling with tears, staring straight ahead and not moving at the slightest hint of perceived rejection. And no matter how many times you try to ask him what is going on for him he won't speak. He stays totally shut down and waits us out. His dad has taken to actually loudly saying to him, "Stop being so hard on yourself!" and "Stop telling yourself that you're a bad kid!" That seems to jar him out of it. Up until now nobody has ever just known what's going on in his head. Having someone just call him out on what is going on in his mind seems to be the first thing that's made him stop and think about what he's saying to himself. Not really traditional parenting. But it may be the first step to finding something that works for him until we can get him into a therapists office. (Assuming we get custody.)

And I owe this site<\b> for that insight into knowing that is what is going on for S9 so that I was able to tell his dad what his son was standing there doing to himself. The poor kid just stands there marinating in a pit of self loathing.   :'(

[quote author=ForeverDad link=topic=227776.msg12455377#msg12455377 date=1404268319]Children vary from one to the next.  Some are stronger than others.  Sadly, some are more engulfed and overwhelmed than others.  For Nope, at this point in the midst of an intense parenting case, she's dealing with a greatly influenced girl barely into her teens.  In the past, having half the summer to parent her let the kids relax into their stable parenting, then it was back to their mother for the next 46 weeks to be reprogrammed and overwhelmed.  I don't think they can count - yet - on the kids to be insightful enough to appreciate their normal, reasonable and loving parenting.[/quote]
Yes, by the time we get the kids enough settled in to actually start trusting us and maybe being willing to open up it's time to send them back for another full year of being raised by their queen/witch mother. No matter what we do the six weeks we get during the summer is viewed by them as more of a "vacation" than another way of life. When they go back to BPD mom's it is viewed as returning to "real life".

Thank you all so much for your insights. It makes me a little more hopeful to know that things can get better. Specifically, that kids who won't less us in now might do so in time. And that what we are seeing now isn't the final answer on how we can expect our lives with them to look. I've been so overwhelmed and frustrated and feeling helpless wondering if change is even possible.

[Nope]

I don't know MWC... . I mean, yes to everything you said. And Nope has good instincts, both parents do, from following a while, it seems to me they're doing everything you mentioned. But sometimes you need to get in your kids' heads and guide them proactively. The anxiety can be intense for them, and they can develop coping mechanisms that really mess them up. My son was on a troubling trajectory and I'm grateful my T helped me get inside his head. It was a huge correction and everyone in his life noticed a change in him. Before that, I was being way too passive, thinking that if I was stable and fair and loving and kind that everything would work out. Parenting with someone who has BPD is intensely nuanced... . things aren't always intuitive.

That's exactly what we are dealing with for S9. He is the "all bad" child and unless we can get him into therapy and figure out how to get into his head he is on the path to becoming his mother. We can be as loving and as stable as possible, but that alone isn't going to stop what is happening in his head, even if he does start living here full time. Too much damage has been done and being passive with him won't undo it. He will literally stand there, eyes filling with tears, staring straight ahead and not moving at the slightest hint of perceived rejection. And no matter how many times you try to ask him what is going on for him he won't speak. He stays totally shut down and waits us out. His dad has taken to actually loudly saying to him, "Stop being so hard on yourself!" and "Stop telling yourself that you're a bad kid!" That seems to jar him out of it. Up until now nobody has ever just known what's going on in his head. Having someone just call him out on what is going on in his mind seems to be the first thing that's made him stop and think about what he's saying to himself. Not really traditional parenting. But it may be the first step to finding something that works for him until we can get him into a therapists office. (Assuming we get custody.)

And I this site for that insight into knowing that is what is going on for S9 so that I was able to tell his dad what his son was standing there doing to himself. The poor kid just stands there marinating in a pit of self loathing.   :'(

Children vary from one to the next.  Some are stronger than others.  Sadly, some are more engulfed and overwhelmed than others.  For Nope, at this point in the midst of an intense parenting case, she's dealing with a greatly influenced girl barely into her teens.  In the past, having half the summer to parent her let the kids relax into their stable parenting, then it was back to their mother for the next 46 weeks to be reprogrammed and overwhelmed.  I don't think they can count - yet - on the kids to be insightful enough to appreciate their normal, reasonable and loving parenting.

Yes, by the time we get the kids enough settled in to actually start trusting us and maybe being willing to open up it's time to send them back for another full year of being raised by their queen/witch mother. No matter what we do the six weeks we get during the summer is viewed by them as more of a "vacation" than another way of life. When they go back to BPD mom's it is viewed as returning to "real life".

Thank you all so much for your insights. It makes me a little more hopeful to know that things can get better. Specifically, that kids who won't less us in now might do so in time. And that what we are seeing now isn't the final answer on how we can expect our lives with them to look. I've been so overwhelmed and frustrated and feeling helpless wondering if change is even possible.[/quote]

[david]

Ex enrolled our youngest in kindergarten years back. He was technically old enough but I didn't think he was developmentally ready. I though a preK program would have been best for him. I tried to reason (mistake) with ex but she had to be right no matter what. He went to kindergarten and struggled. His mom insisted he had a learning disabilty. I am sure he overheard her talking about it. The school decided with ex's push that he repeat kindergarten and that he be tested that second year. He was at the cusp of testing at his age but the school did it anyway. Ex had the school on her side at the time. The tests were inconclusive but they gave him a diagnosis of a learning disabilty. He did fine the second year of kindergarten. He had the same teacher and she commented that he was a different person the second time around. I stayed involved the entire time and told everyone at the school what I believed. They listened and said little. I also made sure I told him he was capable and that I thought he should have went to pre K instead. I explained, at his age level, why I thought he should have gone to pre K. I basically compared him to his brother that did go to a pre K program. I never blamed his mom or brought her into the conversation.

I picked him up his first day at first grade. He walked out of the buiklding and the first thing he said was that there were a few kids that were in his first year at kindergarten that were still in first grade. He went on and it became obvious that he thought he was stupid the last few years because of all that went on.

His first grade teacher and I had numerous conversations. His teacher did not see why he was diagnosed. He also had a teacher assistant because of the diagnosis and she didn't see it either.

He did fine. He went to second grade and by then I had a lot of counselors and staff finally listening to what I had to say. They indicated that they had enough of his mom. I had him retested and he did extremely well. They took his IEP away and put him in their accelerated program. His mom made a stink about it but by then I had enough people at the school listening to me since I was giving them things that they also were seeing.

It was tough getting inside his head but I stayed with it. He was afraid to make mistakes and when he did he believed it was because he was stupid. I actually would make mistakes on purpose in front of him and model for him how I handled it. That helped a lot. 

[Nope]

Thanks for that advise about making mistakes David. I'll talk to his dad about that. The more healthy behaviors his dad can model for him the better since he believes his dad is perfect and infallible and can do everything perfectly the first time he tries.

We are also dealing with kind of the same situation with school. His "all good" sister who is a year older than him got pre-k. He didn't. Instead he spent the year she was in kindergarten in front of a T.V. So she went through kindergarten just fine. He was held back the following year. He hasn't let it go obsesses over the fact that he should be going into fifth grade this year instead of 4th.

[david]

Our S15 always did well in school and his mom viewed him as the golden child. It wasn't until he turned around 10 and started to think for himself that he lost the golden child status. Our youngest, S11 now, has a competition going on in his own head with his older brother. When report cards come out he wants to know who did better. That started after he finished third grade and his IEP was gone for a year. He just finished fourth grade and his report card was very good. His confidence has been going up the last two years and it shows in his work. He takes more chances when he writes stories in school. He has a keen sense of humor in his stories and likes to share them with me. One story in particular had everyone in his class laughing including his teacher. I asked him what his mom thought about the story. He informed me that he didn't show his mom because she would not have liked the story and he would have gotten yelled at. I can see where he got that idea so I didn't pursue it any further. His mom has a preconceived notion of how children should behave/talk/think/etc. When they step outside of that notion she reacts in a negative way.

I am a school teacher and pre k is a mix of kindergarten and first grade compared to when I went to elementary school. The summer between his first andsecond year of kindergarten was a lot of work on my part. I was always forgetting my glasses and having him help me read something when we went out shopping or anywhere else. I also had him adding things for me because I couldn't see. He went right along with it and liked helping me.

[ForeverDad]

I think their dad should be careful about 'talking louder' to get son out of his detached or fugue state.  If his ex hears of it, and I think the kids are programmed to divulge all to her, then ex will start claiming dad is yelling, screaming and scaring the kids.  Hopefully a T or someone can help suggest or discover more effective methods?

[gherkins]

My husband's ex has a degree in psychology. She has had their daughter tested for ADHD :nope, but she is self-treating her with fish oil and hypnosis. She was also convinced the kiddo had a sensory processing disorder, and took her to an OT for a few sessions until she realized that treatment involved work on her end. The other end of the pendulum is that she leaves the kiddo alone in front of the tv or computer instead of spending time with her and her schoolwork. Will she send it to us? Heavens, no. It's better drama to have a learning disabled child with a distant father who refuses to help. Classic BPD?

[david]

When our oldest started school I was the one that always checked his homework and helped him. When our youingest started school we were already separated and ex had primary residency. Ex , in her mind, is the mother of all mothers. If our youngest did not do as well or better than our oldest ex would blame herself. The solution, find something wrong with him so ex could blame him for any failure.

Looking back she did the same thing with her son from her first marriage. I didn't see it then. He had nothing but troubles in and out of school. None of it made any sense until ex left. The fog lifted and I began to see things in a different light.

When I realized ex never took respondsibilty for anything and just projected by blaming everyone else I went to parallel parenting. Co parenting with someone that is always blame shifting only creates problems for the kids. I gave them a safe place to grow and be themselves. Ex gets tired of the daily "grind" of raising kids. I have a very different view than that. Our boys saw the difference and realized who was helping them.

[Nope]

FD, I'm not really worried about what BPD mom says to anyone. It's in the GAL report that she would call their dad to complain about S9's behavior and ask him to yell at S9. When their dad would just have a calm and loving conversation with him, She called that failure on his part to co-parent. She really believes in her heart that S9 deserves to be screamed at and if she thought it was happening she'd just feel vindicated.

I really do hope the kids figure it out. Still fighting a strange fight about the phone. Their dad has decided on a call schedule. According to the parenting plan, she is supposed to get at least one call a week on his time. We've picked three days a week for the kids to call her. We felt this is necessary because she's so badly trained the kids that asking to call the other parent is off limits. S9's reaction to the call schedule was, in a miserable tone, "Why don't we get a Wednesday call with daddy when we're at mommy's?" Poor kid. I asked D11 to leave her mom a message telling her to call the house phone. D11's response was, in an irritated tone, "When did somebody tell her about the house phone?"

I really wish the phone situation could be normal. This is such a simple thing made ridiculously difficult.

[whirlpoollife]

I really wish the phone situation could be normal. This is such a simple thing made ridiculously difficult.

X2bh gets to call kids three times a day ,  five min then two ten minutes each time, each kid. He goes over the minutes every time. So I have to time it like you would for a child. This got narrowed down from four times with unlimited minutes. 

Plus he texts in between. 

Limit how many calls and limit minutes of each time. Only what you can tolerate too.

[ennie]

Well, I just thought I would offer some sympathy and a longer term perspective.  We have dealt with the same issue. 

Initially, when the kids were young they would speak on speaker phone to mom. They would normally only call when mom was out of town. We could hear her saying, "Are they listening?  Hide!  You do not want them to hear us talking, they will try to take you away from me!"  This came up after the kids told us about things that happened at mommy's house and DH spoke with BPD mom about the issues. 

Initially, DH would not let the kids be alone, but things got more and more intense, including mom filing false allegations of abuse and all kinds of weird games with the phone thing. 

The long and short of it is that we just backed off.  Mom would say the kids were not allowed to call her, as they hardly ever called from our house, so then she would get a court order saying they had to call on sundays from the custodial parent's home... .so kids would always call from dad's, occasionally from mom's... .

This went on and on.  We stuck with time boundaries and did not let the calls be used by kids for power (no calls on transition days when kids were yelling saying, "But we never have to do homework at mommy's!  why do we have to do it here?". 

But other than that, they could call anytime, always private, always 15 minutes or less, and had to call on Sundays. 

Now, at 14, SD14 just makes the call in front of us sometimes.  SD10 just calls on speakerphone again.  When we hear mom saying, "Are you okay?  Is everyone treating you okay?  You sound upset. Is anyone listening?" then SD10 says, "Im fine, mom, Im just tired and do not really like talking on the phone." 

I am not sure that our way was the best.  But I think at some point, after two custody battles, we started focusing more on how we communicate with the kids, modeling what we wanted, and less on how mom does it.  Instead of recording mom, when SD14 would be mean to me and treat others poorly after getting off of the phone with mom's secretive, alienating mean talk, I would tell her that it was painful to me to hear her talking that way after getting off of the phone with her mom, and that I was not comfortable with her calling her mom when we were alone if that was what happened.  So dad and I had a rule that we both had to be there during the sunday calls.  At some point, SD14 really wanted to call mom, and so said, "Look, I know I am sometimes mean after I call my mom, I am not sure why, but I will stop." 

And when one of the kids would tell mom something negative (mom encouraged this for years, which was WHY the calls were private), and we would hear about it from the kids and mom, we would say, "You can say anything you want to to your mom--nothing in our home is a secret.  It is good to notice how you feel and what happens when you say mostly negative things, because focusing on the hard things at our house probably makes it less fun for you.  But if that is what you need to do to feel good with your mom, I get it." 

A lot of what we communicated over and over was, "I trust you to do your best with a hard situation, but we are not going to pretend it is not hard for you and for us to be secretive and harsh." 

I am not sure if what we did was right.  But court orders and talking to mom just did not seem to help that much. 

At this point, SD14 just got a phone and is calling and texting dad at her own initiative for the first time during BPD mom's parenting time. Based on SD10's and 14's pretty constant expressions of love for both their dad and I, I can say with pretty good confidence that the alienation has totally failed.  BPD mom tried hard, but what prevented it was that we never had less than 50/50 custody, we did not badmouth mom but nor did we engage in the kids' need to pretend she is a saint, and we made lots of space for the kids to work out how they wanted to love their mom. 

I think it is important to model non-divisive behavior, to insist on straightforward communication with the kids, and to let them communicate with mom in a way that feels comfortable to them.  When I am dealing with BPD mom's intense aggression, I realize WHY they want to do it her way, and that I just have to trust them and offer my perspective, not make them be different.  I am just a SM, but DH feels the same way.  I can't imagine modeling non-sneakiness by secretly recording calls.  I am not saying you should not do it, as there have been many times I have fantasized about hiring a PI and catching BPD mom driving drunk.  But for me, the important thing is that OUR home does not become a place where secrets fester, a battleground, and so forth.  As far as I am concerned, BPD mom's paranoia is silly, and anything we do to validate that perspective feels like a loss.