How do you "argue" with your BPD?

[ArleighBurke]

I've read a lot of books, and I really try the "Sympathy, Empathy, Truth" mantra for listening/talking.

But some days I just shake my head in disbelief. She was hurt today because I "didn't consider her" in a decision I made. I responded with sorry, and empathy, then said the 4 specific things about her I actually did consider in my decision, but none of that mattered. I even pointed out that she made exactly the same type of decision yesterday without considering me - but she said that was different for some reason. When we argue, it doesn't matter what I say - in her mind it will ALWAYS be my fault.

(It doesn't help that I was grinning most of the conversation because I couldn't believe how effortlessly she was able to justify her own actions, and deflect).

On previous occaisions I've tried to tell her that I don't CAUSE her to feel hurt - that her feeling hurt is a combination of what I said, her current mood and her assumption of my motives - but she didn't accept that. So she blames all her moods on my actions (and it's never her fault).

How is it supposed to work? What is the point of "arguing" if all she wants is for me to take all the blame, and for me to feel sorry for causing her mood, and for me to have to suck up to her for 'repair'.

It doesn't feel like there's a point in argueing with her at all. But if I don't talk, if I just avoid the arguement, then she still gets annoyed because then I'm ignoring her feelings and being selfish.

Any suggestions?

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RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[sweetheart]

I no longer argue - arguing for me made everything 100 times worse. JADE saved our marriage. It has taken a while to establish, about six months of trial and error, it was hard for me to change as well I kept wanting to continue the conversation that rose quickly to argument and beyond. My dBPDh now realises that I won't carry on his argument anymore, even if I have to go for a walk. He returns to baseline a lot quicker now, and is learning to self-soothe, I kept trying to do that for him as well.

I don't know if you have looked at the lesson on JADE - it's not a quick fix nothing is but it does work. JADE was my starting point, it freed me up from the chaos and has allowed me to start looking a at my part in what is happening. That's where I am right now at the start of looking at me... . ,

I hope you find a way that works for you.

[an0ught]

Hi ArleighBurke,

sweetheart has sound advice. Avoiding getting drawn into senseless arguments is very important.

It doesn't feel like there's a point in argueing with her at all. But if I don't talk, if I just avoid the arguement, then she still gets annoyed because then I'm ignoring her feelings and being selfish.

You can't avoid arguing and expect her to be happy about being cheated out of a fight. It is natural for her to feel irritated and ignored. Nothing wrong in validating these emotions - she has every right to feel how she feels. It is still often even better to leave the scene physically so the feeling of being ignored does not fester (see workshops on boundaries and timeouts).

[ArleighBurke]

So, don't justify, argue, defend or the last one.

What does that leave?

A simple "I'm sorry you feel... . ", then "I did what I did because I thought it was right". She'd never be happy with that. She'd be annoyed and call me selfish and not caring for her emotions.

Is that a better outcome than trying to talk? (It always seems lose-lose. I just need to choose the least bad solution)

[ArleighBurke]

I understand that her feelings = facts. I understand she guinuinely feels hurt/pain/whatever. But that's got very little to do with what whatever I did.

A normal arguement is:

Her blaming me for something: "you did X which MADE me feel Y".

So I can be sympathetic - and validate: "I'm sorry you're feeling X. That must be horrible".

She'll normally respond with a "well YOU are uncaring/selfish/mean" etc.

Then I say?

It's such a hard thing to do - allowing her to feel that I CAUSED something bad in her. I want to reflect her emotion back to her - somehow MAKE her responsible for her own emotion. But I know I can't. At the same time if I am sorry and take the blame, then this keeps her view of me being the bad husband in her head, and she will never have respect for me. Frustrating.

[sweetheart]

Hi again ArleighBurke,

What also works for me if my husband really wants to return to a point over and over is I say, " I can hear what your saying and then validate the underlying emotion, but go on to say the way I feel about this is different from you, or that we both see the situation differently, and follow this up with saying that you are going to stop talking about it. And when I say stop talking about it then stop, even if that means you physically remove yourself.

You ask in your post, " what is the point of arguing... . ?" - for me there is absolutely no point arguing with a pwBPD, none whatsoever. It is you that has to break the behaviour pattern and change the dynamic between the two of you and not argue back. I am not suggesting this is easy, or an overnight solution, it's hard work, but if you want to stay with your partner and step out of the fights then you have to do things differently, and then bring your frustrations here and vent - changing what you do and say is to help you feel better about yourself in your relationship. It may or may not facilitate change in the pwBPD, but that's not what all this is about for me, it used to be, but not now.

Keep posting, find a therapist if you can and don't already have one, and have a good look at the lessons on here, over time they really can make a difference

[sweetheart]

Yes it is frustrating, it's great that you have been able to bring that frustration here, keep doing so. The rules are different for a pwBPD, there is no level playing feel and we as there partners very often have to hold a load of negative emotions because they can't and that is very difficult. ( sorry for the split post but you posted while I was writing )

[InSearchofMe]

I understand your frustration with this.  One thing that I have figured out is I need to find the middle ground (for myself) in these discussions.  That place between me taking responsibility for how my pwBPD feels and him taking responsibility for his feelings.  That place is called 'me not accepting responsibility for how he feels.' Getting to a place where I could let his blame-bombs just fall on the floor and not respond to them has been work.  And there have been a thousand moments where I felt very uncomfortable learning to not respond and allowing moments of silence in our discussions.

When my pwBPD tosses a blame-bomb (you are mean, you did this to me, etc.) I practice my attentive listening skills and don't say anything.  Just because he made a statement, does not mean I have to say something.  More often than not, after a moment of quiet, he will move onto the next thing. 

I apologize if this does not make much sense.  I am still stumbling through learning how to work on me in all of this and I am not always able to articulate well the actions I am taking that are different.

Keep posting and asking for help in navigating all of this.  I know it helps me make progress. 

[Wanda]

 for me i don't argue, i get involved with things for me i might go for a walk, a ride, do things for me.

i don't get in the drama of things because i think that whats he wants so he can argue.

and later after my walk never talked about again...

and i know when all he wants to do is argue he brings it up over and over.

[maxsterling]

Arguing with a pwBPD is completely futile.  In the best case scenario, you still feel worse afterwards.  Unless you happen to enjoy arguing, or get some kind of satisfaction from standing up for yourself over something pointless, then there is absolutely nothing to gain.

The chance of the pwBPD seeing your point of view and backing off is probably less than 0.00001%.  Seriously, it won't happen until long after the UFOs come to take over the Earth.

Most of the time they are trying to pin their emotions or alternate reality onto you.  If you defend yourself, they see it as evidence that their view is correct.  The more you defend, the more they fight and hurt back. 

Here are the steps as I understand it:

1) Calm yourself.  This is very difficult.

2) Speak deliberately, but be careful not to sound patronizing.  Again, very difficult to learn.

3) Validate that they are upset.

4) Validate that they have a right to be upset.

5) State the truth as you see it.

6) Prepare for crap to be flung back at you filled with curse words, small objects, and verbal abuse.   

7) Put your shoes on, grab your keys, and leave and take care of yourself someplace calm.  Announce that you are leaving, to where, and when you will be back.  Don't answer harassing text messages.

8) Prepare for the pwBPD to chase after you slamming doors as you leave.

[ArleighBurke]

Thanks to all. I am new to this. But I guess my biggest hurdle is I can't understand how this is supposed to work!

If I don't argue, or don't take blame, or if I just talk about her feelings without saying "my truth", then after she will continue on in her merry way BELIEVING that I am the bad guy, that I MADE her feel bad, that she is the VICTIM.

If it was me feeling those things about my partner - I'd be leaving the relationship. But she stays? Does that mean on some level she doesn't believe all that and she actually does feel love and/or respect for me? But she won't allow herself to acknowledge that... .

[empathic]

If it was me feeling those things about my partner - I'd be leaving the relationship. But she stays? Does that mean on some level she doesn't believe all that and she actually does feel love and/or respect for me? But she won't allow herself to acknowledge that... .

Good question! I've been pondering this also, and it's one thing where I'd expect her to see the fault in logic - if I'm as useless as she makes me out to be, why does she stay?

I think it's partly due to her inability to make her mind up about things, I see this all the time from small to big issues. I often have to help her make decisions. It's like she's terribly afraid of making the wrong choice (often in others' eyes). If I really had been a bad guy and her mother and her friends had told her so, I think she'd have been able to leave me.

[sweetheart]

My take on this is that if a pwBPD is looking to argue it is my experience because something you have said has inadvertently caused them to feel bad. If it is not you then something else will have triggered the bad feelings and this could be absolutely anything.

So because a pwBPD cannot tolerate any bad feelings they have to get rid of them on to you, the argument is not based on facts or what really happened it is based on how bad they are feeling. When I at last learnt to withdraw from an argument what I have found is that my dBPDh usually seethes for a bit maybe an hour or two sometimes longer and then all goes back to normal. If I don't mention anything afterwards then it's just like it never happened.

If my dBPDh keeps returning to an argument then something must be really bothering him and because i won't engage in the argument, and validation isn't working then he usually goes off out somewhere and calms down away from me. I text him just by way of keeping contact and once he is calm he comes home, I don't ask any questions about where he has been etc and usually that's the end of it.

Again in my experience once the pwBPD is feeling less upset they move on as though nothing has happened. They are not experiencing the world and their relationships in the same way as you or I, their emotional development is not 'adult' some of what goes on reminds me of my son who is 6 when he used to have tantrums, when they were over up he got and that was that he went off to play again.

When I listen to what my husband says when he is arguing or ranting, or really dysregulated it is usually about himself, or his past relationships, usually his parents it isn't really about me and that's what I hold on to. Not saying I'm  perfect mind

Great post maxsterling although I know it's coming from a difficult place at the moment

[ziniztar]

I understand that her feelings = facts. I understand she guinuinely feels hurt/pain/whatever. But that's got very little to do with what whatever I did.

A senior member has a tagline saying: “the truth is shared and open to debate, feelings are individual and real”. That helps me to accept (!) that my dBPDbf’s version of reality is real to him. It’s very important to realize that your SO’s perception of the truth is different than yours. Trying to explain (the E in JADE) what happened will not make it better – it will make them feel stupid (for not getting it) or unheard.