Did not see this one coming; had to leave and it's my uBPDh's birthday

[Cat21]

I am proud of myself for sticking to my boundary, though it feels particularly bad, since today is my uBPDh's birthday. It's been over a month since I've had to leave due to his dysregulation, and I certainly did not expect him to be dysregulating on his own birthday. It started when I came home from work; I smelled something burning in the apartment. He told me that when he came home from running errands, the burning smell was coming from the dryer. Apparently, some lint was burning. He said that his initial reaction was to text me, and blame me for not emptying the lint drawer. However, he thought about my response (according to him, I would've been really mad that he blamed me for that), and he decided to wait until I got home to talk to me about it. This is good! I would have been mad at him for blaming me for that, as it was not my fault. I did empty the lint drawer. Sometimes these things just happen.

We cooked dinner together, and sat down to enjoy a nice meal to celebrate his birthday. Then he told me that the pasta sauce I made didn't have enough salt in it. When I disagreed with him, that's when things started. He told me that I can't take any criticism when it comes to my cooking, and that I just needed to admit the sauce needed more salt. I told him that I disagreed with him, once again, but that he is certainly entitled to his own opinion, just as I am entitled to mine. After we finished eating, I was washing the dishes, and he insisted that I wasn't washing them properly. This is always a source of criticism in our house. So, I let him finish washing the dishes, as to avoid an argument, and I walked away. When I came back in the kitchen, he started explaining to me how I need to learn how to listen and take his criticisms so that I can be a better person. One of my boundaries is to leave when personal attacks begin, so I told him that I thought it was best for us to leave this conversation for later, as it was not doing either of us any good. He continued to scream at me, claiming that I "need to learn how to take it "and stop arguing with him, insisting that it was my fault our apartment nearly burned down. He said that he did not believe me when I told him I emptied the lint drawer. I got my purse and left. He opened the door and yelled down the hall to me, "you need to learn how to take it!"

Surprisingly, I don't feel nearly as upset as I have in the past. I am guessing this because I enforce the boundaries, and I really tried not to JADE. Admittedly, I am a little bit nervous about going home. He is drinking, and I'm sure he will still be really angry with me for leaving. I'm considering this a win for me, but I do feel bad that this happened on his birthday.

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Cat21]

... .an update... .

I wasn't gone long, so I came back to the apt. and said to him, "I left because things were too heated here and I won't tolerate screaming and yelling. If you want to have a conversation, I'm game, but I won't be verbally abused." He was clearly not cooled down, as he continued to yell at me, telling me how irresponsible I am and how he worries about how I'll handle future issues that are actually life and death. (is this about not salt in pasta sauce or washing a pan?) I said, "Well, that requires trust on your part. You're clearly upset about the dryer, and that's understandable. Once again, it's not my fault and it's not yours- it just happened." I turned to leave so I could take a shower, and he started yelling at me saying things like, "you always leave because you can't admit that I'm right! You HAVE to learn that I'm not superior- I'm just trying to help you!" And then came the zinger that broke this non-JADEr's stride: "When we have kids, you can make NO mistakes. NONE. Ever!"

I lost it, albeit calmly. I said, "if you really think that, then we are clearly not having kids. There is no such things as no mistakes in ANYTHING in life. So, if that's really the way you feel, then I'll go back on the pill." I didn't hear what else he screamed because I was in the shower.

My question, now, is this- is it possible to tell if dysregulated talk is the truth? There have been many times when he has said things in a dysregulated state that he later admits are not true. This clearly is a sensitive subject, as we have JUST decided to start a family. I've been very hesitant for many reasons, but now this gives me even more pause. I know that many things said in these states are par for the course and there is probably no guarantee. Anyone else experienced something similar?

[ForeverDad]

Birthdays, weddings, funerals, virtually any event can be triggers.  I think that no matter how much you tiptoed on eggshells today, he would have found something to blame on you.  Maybe he wouldn't have dysregulated if the dryer hadn't singed the lint, but now you'll never know.  Possibly it wasn't so much a question of IF, it was a matter of when and what.

Well, I'm probably not one to talk in depth about Staying but I saw your post... .  In a way I did Stay (for 15 years of marriage and one child) but eventually Staying failed me, she started becoming Paranoid Mother and overly critical of others then after she drove away my family and all friends but a few of hers, she started focusing on me as the problem person and worse.  I could see where it was heading - me wearing an orange jumpsuit due to false allegations or not ever seeing my son - and since she refused therapy my marriage ended and I've been in and out of family court for the last several years.  So, from my perspective, if he's not in meaningful therapy and/or making substantive progress, it's unlikely to get better and so I would term your situation as "Staying For Now".

As much as children are blessings, having children won't fix a troubled relationship.  Rather than making things smoother, it is likely to add additional triggers and make life for you and any children that much more complicated.  And if the relationship fails, then immensely more complicated and distressing.  Without children, it's mostly just about material and financial assets and debts.  With children, you throw in intense custody and parenting time conflicts for up to 18 years as well.

[formflier]

 

Please read my story as well as Forever Dad... .and others.

At the moment... .I am hopeful that things are on the right path for my family.

But... .the decisions that I have had to make to protect my kids and preserve the option to have an intact family have not been pleasant.

Please think long and hard about bringing a child into an unstable/untreated r/s.

[Cat21]

I certainly agree that having a child does not fix anything; it's one reason why I've been hesitant! At this point, I'm getting to be the age that if I don't have a child in the next few years, it might not be possible... .

It's both eye-opening and disparaging to read of others' experiences, especially about children. At this point, my husband is high functioning... .is that something that can change over time?

He did apologize to me a few minutes ago about his behavior and this whole ordeal. When I questioned him about his assertion that we are to make NO mistakes in parenting, he said, "Well, you might make mistakes, but you should always strive for perfection!" Big sigh.

I have asked him about seeing a therapist, and of course he has refused. Is there any "good" way to try and get an undiagnosed pwBPD to get help? Right now, I'm concentrating on working on myself and learning the tools of the trade... .

[Jacq189]

Cat21, I can definitely relate! Special occasions and events are always a trigger for my uBPDgf.

To your question about whether dysregulated talk can be truth I would answer- yes it can be truth and it is likely that there will be some teeny tiny grain of something that is real (and that is the part you need to validate) BUT the trouble is they may not have even vocalised the real part and if it is in there at all it is usually going to be smothered with untruths. So the more pertinent questions becomes- Can you decipher what is truth when they are dysregulated? Once the personal attacks start I would say absolutely NOT! Don't even try and pay no attention to anything that is said. At that point you just need to walk away and stick your fingers in your ears.

Once they have calmed down and maybe you have had a chance to think about what could have possibly upset them or been the grain of truth then approach him about it and ask. ":)id you really mean what you said?"

As the comment your partner made about parenting was at the climax of your confrontation I would say it is very unlikely that there was any truth in it. It was just the next level he could take it to. If there is truth in it I would guess that he is projecting. He could be nervous about having children if life already feels chaotic to him and it is easier to put that on you and say its something that you need to fix.

But never think too much into what is said when they dysregulate and try to not hold onto those negative personal comments because it will only do you harm.

[ForeverDad]

If your relationship with him is difficult for you to manage, even with the coping and communication skills you've gained here, do you think it would be different for any children?

[formflier]

If your relationship with him is difficult for you to manage, even with the coping and communication skills you've gained here, do you think it would be different for any children?

I would submit that anything you are experiencing now as an "issue"... .will be magnified.  Exponentially.

And I will also say that it is very likely that having a child would affect your coping skills.  You would have to direct more energy into taking care of a child... .there is only so much energy to go around... .so less for self care.

Finally... .when problems come up... .and they will... .you know that you will be working at them from different perspectives if you are both "untreated".

Is this an impossible task... .NO.

Is it a wise thing to do?  I'll let that question hang out there.

[formflier]

I have asked him about seeing a therapist, and of course he has refused. Is there any "good" way to try and get an undiagnosed pwBPD to get help? Right now, I'm concentrating on working on myself and learning the tools of the trade... .

What seems to have worked... .or is in the process of working for me is going at it from a "family systems" point of view.  So... this particular round of counseling was started "for the kids".  The T sized up the situation with kids is a result of r/s issues with me and uBPDw.  uBPDw and I have both been doing individual work with the same guy for a while now. 

We are going to start bringing kids back into the picture fairly soon.

That's my story... .don't see much of a pathway to translate that into your situation.

Maybe (long shot)... .it can be done as part of preparing for a baby. 

However... .if that work is just MC (couples)... .i wouldn't think that would do much good. 

The hope would be that you could get in a situation where the same T worked individually with both of you for a while. 

That way the strategies that he is teaching both of you... .are more focused.

Last thing:  When you ask him to go to T... .what is the reason he gives to not go?  You might come back at him with a "striving for perfection" argument.  !   

[ForeverDad]

Last thing:  When you ask him to go to T... .what is the reason he gives to not go?  You might come back at him with a "striving for perfection" argument.  !   

Logic works only intermittently and then only briefly with someone who has BPD traits and avoids therapy.  The extreme moods of the moment, the skewed cognition, the blame-shifting, the "my rules apply to you and not me" and the emotional baggage of the relationship all get in the way.

[Cat21]

[/quote]
Last thing:  When you ask him to go to T... .what is the reason he gives to not go?  You might come back at him with a "striving for perfection" argument.  !   [/quote]
The reason he has given is something along the lines of, "Therapy is for people who need help figuring out how to deal with things- I already know what to do to help myself." Total denial that there is any issue. We did manage to see a couples T before we got married (one session was all he would attend), and the T spent the entire session focusing on me and my relationship with my mother. We both felt it was a total waste of time, but for different reasons.

Funny, just yesterday he got into an argument with his sister over the phone (whom I suspect also has BPD and is probably the main reason my husband is how he is!), and he was very logical, rational, and calm throughout the entire thing. He was using the same language with her as I use with him! I was floored.

I actually thought that T in prep. for starting a family would be a good way to get him in the door, but as you pointed out, that would most likely me marriage counseling, and I'm not sure that would address the BPD. Several months ago, when we had a serious talk about trying to start a family, I told him that I think it's a good idea for us to see a therapist who helps first-time parents prioritize, etc. for baby. He didn't baulk at the suggestion, but he didn't seem jazzed either. If I were to go ahead and make an appointment for a "pre-baby discussion", what type of therapist would you suggest?

[stuckgirl]

I am proud of myself for sticking to my boundary, though it feels particularly bad, since today is my uBPDh's birthday. It's been over a month since I've had to leave due to his dysregulation, and I certainly did not expect him to be dysregulating on his own birthday. It started when I came home from work; I smelled something burning in the apartment. He told me that when he came home from running errands, the burning smell was coming from the dryer. Apparently, some lint was burning. He said that his initial reaction was to text me, and blame me for not emptying the lint drawer. However, he thought about my response (according to him, I would've been really mad that he blamed me for that), and he decided to wait until I got home to talk to me about it. This is good! I would have been mad at him for blaming me for that, as it was not my fault. I did empty the lint drawer. Sometimes these things just happen.

We cooked dinner together, and sat down to enjoy a nice meal to celebrate his birthday. Then he told me that the pasta sauce I made didn't have enough salt in it. When I disagreed with him, that's when things started. He told me that I can't take any criticism when it comes to my cooking, and that I just needed to admit the sauce needed more salt. I told him that I disagreed with him, once again, but that he is certainly entitled to his own opinion, just as I am entitled to mine. After we finished eating, I was washing the dishes, and he insisted that I wasn't washing them properly. This is always a source of criticism in our house. So, I let him finish washing the dishes, as to avoid an argument, and I walked away. When I came back in the kitchen, he started explaining to me how I need to learn how to listen and take his criticisms so that I can be a better person. One of my boundaries is to leave when personal attacks begin, so I told him that I thought it was best for us to leave this conversation for later, as it was not doing either of us any good. He continued to scream at me, claiming that I "need to learn how to take it "and stop arguing with him, insisting that it was my fault our apartment nearly burned down. He said that he did not believe me when I told him I emptied the lint drawer. I got my purse and left. He opened the door and yelled down the hall to me, "you need to learn how to take it!"

Surprisingly, I don't feel nearly as upset as I have in the past. I am guessing this because I enforce the boundaries, and I really tried not to JADE. Admittedly, I am a little bit nervous about going home. He is drinking, and I'm sure he will still be really angry with me for leaving. I'm considering this a win for me, but I do feel bad that this happened on his birthday.

my boyfriend also dysregulates a lot on occasions,he was almost about to on his own birthday,we had people invited over,i did the math with that and cranky boyfriend,did not like the results,apologized and gave him a big smile when he arrived.i figured it was his birthday after all too.

i dont have children but i believe if i married him and had a child,i would have to fight for both our sanities everyday.

[ForeverDad]

I'm getting the feeling he may be NPD (narcissistic) as well.  I've heard that N is an even tougher nut to crack than B.  If he refuses therapy or even lesser marriage counseling sessions, if he won't listen to you (you're too close for him to get past the relationship's baggage and emotional triggers) after years of marriage and knowing you for a decade, then it's quite possible he may never change.  If he continues refusing to change or improve, how would that affect your parenting plans/hopes?  Just... .bpdfamily.com.

i dont have children but i believe if i married him and had a child,i would have to fight for both our sanities everyday.

Almost cross posted when this post came in.  This is what I mean - can you "fight for both our sanities everyday"?

[Love Is Not Enough]

If your relationship with him is difficult for you to manage, even with the coping and communication skills you've gained here, do you think it would be different for any children?

I would submit that anything you are experiencing now as an "issue"... .will be magnified.  Exponentially.

And I will also say that it is very likely that having a child would affect your coping skills.  You would have to direct more energy into taking care of a child... .there is only so much energy to go around... .so less for self care.

Finally... .when problems come up... .and they will... .you know that you will be working at them from different perspectives if you are both "untreated".

Is this an impossible task... .NO.

Is it a wise thing to do?  I'll let that question hang out there.

I'll answer it. Absolutely not. Being raised by an NPD father and watching my BPDgf raise her children has taught me that not bringing and innocent person into a nightmare is the best thing to do. It is very stressful on my gf and I watch her struggle everyday with the stress of motherhood. She is doing better, but I can see her playing mind games with SD3 and SD5 sometimes or just flat out raging at them. She has been a lot better since starting DBT, but I am really worried about when these girls are older and start standing up to her. I can only hope my gf has made great strides by then. Then I wonder if I have any idea what I am doing. I do not have anything good to model from my FOO but I am doing my best to figure it all out.

I would beg you to please wait until he makes some progress and really commits to therapy. As stated previously also find out he is more B than N. From my experience with my father I have a lot of doubts about the usefulness of therapy for a pwNPD. My father did not even crack the door on opening up until he was on his deathbed. My sister found out several things that explained why he was the way he was. Then he passed away a week later without ever being able to work on any of those issues. A tough nut to crack indeed.

[Cat21]

I thank you all for your thoughts and sharing your experiences- it really does help. Of course, we all have shared experiences with the pwBPD in our lives, but all have our own unique situations as well. I am digesting the advice I receive and and honestly say that I will not hastily make any decisions regarding a future family; I haven't thus far and I won't in the future.

That being said, I must say that even though I have only recently learned about BPD (in the last few months), I have known for 5 years, which is how long I have lived with by husband, that something wasn't "right". In that time, he has made progress, as have I. During our first year living together, we argued weekly, sometimes several times per week. The fights were ugly and I considered calling off the marriage. I had no idea how to handle his dysregulations and had to basically figure out what worked on my own. Since that time, the frequency of arguments has diminished, along with the severity of the dysregulations. Sometimes it's 3-4 months without any arguments. I know this disorder changes over time, so I have no idea what the future holds. For now, I'm trying to learn how best to control myself and my reactions, with the hope that will lead to more stability.

[formflier]

I thank you all for your thoughts and sharing your experiences- it really does help. Of course, we all have shared experiences with the pwBPD in our lives, but all have our own unique situations as well. I am digesting the advice I receive and and honestly say that I will not hastily make any decisions regarding a future family; I haven't thus far and I won't in the future.

That being said, I must say that even though I have only recently learned about BPD (in the last few months), I have known for 5 years, which is how long I have lived with by husband, that something wasn't "right". In that time, he has made progress, as have I. During our first year living together, we argued weekly, sometimes several times per week. The fights were ugly and I considered calling off the marriage. I had no idea how to handle his dysregulations and had to basically figure out what worked on my own. Since that time, the frequency of arguments has diminished, along with the severity of the dysregulations. Sometimes it's 3-4 months without any arguments. I know this disorder changes over time, so I have no idea what the future holds. For now, I'm trying to learn how best to control myself and my reactions, with the hope that will lead to more stability.

I think going over my story may give you some help... .or perspective.  I didn't "get it" that something wasn't right until approx year 14 or 15 of marriage.  After a natural disaster kept us out of our home for many months.  Lots of stress there.

I've known about BPD (had a MC tell me) in December/January time frame. 

Now that I look back on early years... .I think I was similar to you in that we could go months without an issue.  I was military so there were lots of "breaks" in the r/s to ease the pressure.

To be clear... .uBPDw is still "u"... .but hoping to get something concrete soon.

Anyway... .the point of my story is that a major stress in our life... .our r/s has put things on a more or less constant state of decline for 5 years. 

Having a baby with him may be a similar stress... .or it may not be. 

Now... .for the good news.  Where are you different than me.  You are on this board and have some knowledge about BPD.  If I had know this years ago... .wow... .I think things could be a lot different.

Have you been to a T?  I think I would look for something that does DBT... .and treats BPD... and have a session or two to see if there is a fit.

Then you can bring in hubby for "family counseling".

for the T to best prepare the family they will need 1 on 1 time with each to get to know you.  Even better if the T does some assessment tools, MMPI or other tests like this.

Make sure you get these done as well.

This will take time... .

Deciding to have a child with a pwBPD is not something that I would figure out with "just" the help of a board like this.

I would definitely say a good r/s with a T is essential.  If you are religious... .talk with your pastor.

Hang in there... .hope this helps.

[Not normal]

Hi yah Cat

I felt to share some thoughts as my hb is a high functioning one and we have a s4.

He blames me for everything that fails around the house including our relationship as I can't take critism.

I remember those days of screaming at each other on our 1st year anniversary while our 9 month old cried himself to sleep... that was before I knew about BPD ... .All arguments ended up with him leaving the house and leaving me with the son as it's easier for him to exit than me.

Every birthday will be his hateful words to me to make me cry. I dread having celebrations or birthdays... that includes my son's.

As my son got older, and the fights don't stop... .late at night or early in the morning seems to be his favorite choice of time... .ended up waking son up and son hugging my leg while he lashed out... .I ll try to walk to other rooms but he wouldn't stop shouting... .I had to be the stronger one to speak with son in a calm way , explaining to son that daddy s not well. Son says he hates him and wants to hit him to help mommy... .

In the past he would use divorce threats every few months as it was my fear then... having a small son and no job... .I wanted the happy family anyway... .When I went to work... .felt my confidence getting back and did speak with lawyers to find out about my rights... .those threats went away as he was making false accusations ... .

When those threats lost their power, he started to insist to throw son and me out of the house as a form of scare tactic to false me into submission.

I packed an left to my mom's for 2 months ... and he kept talking about changing and working things out that I gave him a chance and moved back with s4. This was earlier this year.

After 2 weeks of 'happiness' he became the same person and finally blew at me when I had a stressful 2 weeks of work... perfect timing... .

Threw us out and I've been at my mom's for the past 1 month.

Son in a mess... .I was in a mess too but now ok.

I live in Asia so no laws to protect the throwing out bit.

He says he wants to work things out but not on my terms.

We went to a therapist twice and he was upset that she lashed out on him and said that he was cruel and emotionless... .

Now he refuses therapy and I said that that's the only way I see it working ... Intense therapy. ... .

He's saying he ll think about it... .trying to show me power... .but I not letting that get to me... .I need to remember the facts... .and I was the one wanting out... .it's non negotiable... .so he is away on business trip and will talk after a week... .of course... .this is his control tactic. ...

Hope you see what I'm getting at... .Please fix it with therapy before considering bringing an innocent life into this when you have the choice... .it's ok for adults to be using the tools on a loved one... .the child is heavily manipulated by the borderline ... .Instead of having a happy childhood, he/she needs to learn how to be'smart' around daddy... which creates problems... .

Something I can't tolerate is lack of respect for me... .I hate it for my son to learn the ropes from his dad and treat other women in the same way when he is older...

If you want a child desperately... .you can... just be prepared just in case single motherhood is the way out... .and have money reserves... .we are speculating on a expensive divorce with trips to family court... .

Really sorry to sound so negative... .I felt that I had to say something.

PS: when I was full time mom for 2 years and in those years i was accused of poisoning my family... .not being a good mom and not giving in to his sexual advances... not closing the curtain with care... not cleaning the filthy kitchen... .not ironing his shirt correctly... .etc. He was jealous that I gave the baby more attention ...

I brought my son up alone as he was never home and even if he was home... he's glued to his laptop... .