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Author Topic: Navigating their disregulation when you cant agree based on principle.  (Read 556 times)
reluctanthusband
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« on: July 08, 2014, 11:20:42 AM »

T help or experienced non's help please.  So yesterday we had a T session that my uBPDw stormed out of.  She got so disturbed because the T was telling me how I should react to her "Arguments"  the whole SET deal.  I understand how that is supposed to work, but what do you do when at the end of the argument she is looking for agreement on (Insert whatever issue is bothering her) and I can't agree with her?  She stormed out because she can't handle that I have no compassion that I don’t care and have no emotions!

She took off and I had to wait till she wanted to come back to the car and go home.  ON the way home I got an 'F' bomb laden rage fit thrown at me(Which I stayed calm for) where she said she was only coming home because I needed a caretaker for my kids(Our kids).  Also that I can have everything I wanted a new wife, the house to myself, a new car and that she has come to the realization that she has nothing that is hers(Im in the military and everything is in my name for discounts and because I have better credit).

I understand that in a regular relationship that is having issues the more mature one takes the first steps and the second usually follows(Love and respect book) but how do we as non's do that when leading just leads to more validation of bad behaviors.  Or when the pwBPD wants validation but you can't give them what they want for whatever reason(principle, religion, finances) I just feel so stuck and weary.  I know it's not about winning but when I set a boundary and hold it up I'm berated for being uncompassionate and un-caring.

So the question is how do we navigate our pwBPD's disregulation when they are seeking for you to agree with and go with whatever they are upset about.  Perfect example She is pissed at me for not painting someone black that I know for a fact loves our family.  I know this woman(Old enough to be my mother and Im friends with her husband) and her family is not the horrible person that my wife says she is and will not paint her black.  What do I do, how do you navigate that?

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« Reply #1 on: July 08, 2014, 03:11:25 PM »

T help or experienced non's help please.  So yesterday we had a T session that my uBPDw stormed out of.  She got so disturbed because the T was telling me how I should react to her "Arguments"  the whole SET deal.  I understand how that is supposed to work, but what do you do when at the end of the argument she is looking for agreement on (Insert whatever issue is bothering her) and I can't agree with her?  She stormed out because she can't handle that I have no compassion that I don’t care and have no emotions!

She took off and I had to wait till she wanted to come back to the car and go home.  ON the way home I got an 'F' bomb laden rage fit thrown at me(Which I stayed calm for) where she said she was only coming home because I needed a caretaker for my kids(Our kids).  Also that I can have everything I wanted a new wife, the house to myself, a new car and that she has come to the realization that she has nothing that is hers(Im in the military and everything is in my name for discounts and because I have better credit).

I understand that in a regular relationship that is having issues the more mature one takes the first steps and the second usually follows(Love and respect book) but how do we as non's do that when leading just leads to more validation of bad behaviors.  Or when the pwBPD wants validation but you can't give them what they want for whatever reason(principle, religion, finances) I just feel so stuck and weary.  I know it's not about winning but when I set a boundary and hold it up I'm berated for being uncompassionate and un-caring.

So the question is how do we navigate our pwBPD's disregulation when they are seeking for you to agree with and go with whatever they are upset about.  Perfect example She is pissed at me for not painting someone black that I know for a fact loves our family.  I know this woman(Old enough to be my mother and Im friends with her husband) and her family is not the horrible person that my wife says she is and will not paint her black.  What do I do, how do you navigate that?

You don't navigate it.

Your feelings about other people are your feelings.  That is a boundary she can't cross.  Same thing... .you can't cross hers.

You validate her frustration at the difference... .(maybe)...

But to me... .this is a perfect place for boundaries.

I feel for you on the car ride home... .



I've been there... .been cussed for an hour straight.  I live rural... .so rides to counseling can be long.

I just drove but I have often wondered if an appropriate boundary would be me stopping car and walking away for 5 minute break.  That I wouldn't drive car with pissed off cussing woman.

Any senior members with thoughts on this.

Luckily things are better and I've never had to try to enforce a boundary about "car cussing"... .but seriously... it's dangerous.

Thoughts?
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reluctanthusband
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« Reply #2 on: July 08, 2014, 03:31:45 PM »

Regarding boundaries last week I spent alot of time on the boards after an uncomfortable T session.  I basically said that because no one is supposed to be her emotional caretaker(100%) that everyone will fail her at one point or another.  I told her it is not my job to be her 100% emotional baby sitter and all the people she has painted black are staying away because they are exauseted in her emotional gymnastics.  I did tell her that I am supposed to be her emotional support, but that I cant do it for everything all the time.  Of course this turned into I don’t want to support her emotionally.  I literally came in the house after a full days work to have her start in on me yelling and cursing.  I raised my voice for maybe 3 words, stopped apologized and said im going to leave and left.  It felt great to leave to make her the only one freaking out kicking and screaming like a little kid.  Im just done with the fights.  Im tired of wasting my time and energy with them.  But how do we validate their feelings without invalidating our own.  Hey honey I see you are upset about the situation and I can understand how you can feel that way... .(Her)So you agree with me?   Boom that is how it always works I can't invalidate myself without crushing my soul so it just keeps going.  Or I leave and then it will be waiting for me another time.
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« Reply #3 on: July 08, 2014, 07:01:54 PM »

Not sure if this helps, BPDw and I have been going through a "re-alignment" of our relationship for the last few months. We have had a lot of the same issues though things seem to be improving. If she has an opinion about something or someone there is only one absolute truth for her and it used to rely annoy me for a long time. She felt like she was being invalidated and unsupported if I didn't agree 100% with her, my opinion didn't count. Thanks to this website and a few other things if this comes up now I try to use SET to a certain extent but then fairly quickly agree to disagree & walk away. BPDw sees this as me having "opinionated" which is still annoying. The way I see it I think she is the one who is more opinionated and outspoken than me. Because I tend to think things through a lot and consider all sides before forming opinions / positions on things I tend to only change my mind if new information comes to light, I don't see that as being opinionated. Whatever the case I'm happy the way I am in myself which is the key issue here and much less reliant on BPDw for my own validation (which is just as important).

On the car thing, BPDw and d15 often argue about nothing and anything in the car. BPDw hates it when I ask them to stop because this is "undermining her authority" , what she wants is for me to punish D15 for answering back whilst at the same time driving & navigating. Obviously, I find it very distracting and dangerous and if it gets too much I will now pull over and give them 5 mins to finish off.         
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« Reply #4 on: July 08, 2014, 11:40:35 PM »

Regarding boundaries last week I spent alot of time on the boards after an uncomfortable T session.  I basically said that because no one is supposed to be her emotional caretaker(100%) that everyone will fail her at one point or another.  I told her it is not my job to be her 100% emotional baby sitter and all the people she has painted black are staying away because they are exauseted in her emotional gymnastics.  I did tell her that I am supposed to be her emotional support, but that I cant do it for everything all the time.  Of course this turned into I don’t want to support her emotionally.  I literally came in the house after a full days work to have her start in on me yelling and cursing.  I raised my voice for maybe 3 words, stopped apologized and said im going to leave and left.  It felt great to leave to make her the only one freaking out kicking and screaming like a little kid.  Im just done with the fights.  Im tired of wasting my time and energy with them.  But how do we validate their feelings without invalidating our own.  Hey honey I see you are upset about the situation and I can understand how you can feel that way... .(Her)So you agree with me?   Boom that is how it always works I can't invalidate myself without crushing my soul so it just keeps going.  Or I leave and then it will be waiting for me another time.

Good for you for using a boundary about her pitching a fit.

Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

My opinion is that I'm better at boundaries and I still feel like a clutz trying to validate.  I think lots of people on these board express a similar sentiment.

I've read some books on validation and I'm trying to practice... .most people say it just takes time to get better at it.

So... .sounds like you did a good job.

What do you think you could have done better when enforcing that boundary where you left her kicking and screaming?

What do you think it is about what you could have done better... .that is better... .what is the theory behind that?

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« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2014, 01:56:35 AM »

Validation doesn't work for somebody in full-blown dysregulation / raging.

The best you can do at that point is go away until that blows over. (That and find a way not to be locked in a car with it!)

I've personally left, while trying not to slam the door saying "If I stay here any longer, I'll say something that I'll regret later." (and trying not to shout).

Validation may work well at the first hint of upset. It also works well when things are good. Consider it a long-term fix like turning the heat down on a pot which is boiling over--it won't put out the current fire... .but makes the chance of the next blowup less, or the time between them longer.
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« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2014, 03:14:55 AM »

First thing is to drop the use of the word "understand" as you dont. They can either find it invalidating that you think you understand when they believe you dont. If they get an "I understand" out of you they may take that as an "I approve" and as you have no doubt found out, they will throw that back at you later when it is obvious you dont.

Validating can be a minefield. I find it easier if I focus on not "invalidating" instead. otherwise you fall into the "try hard" category and trip up. By thinking of not invalidating, you tend to say less, rather than the wrong thing.

You will not always get to an "agree to disagree" situation.

You are entitled to state how you see things, if it is important enough (most of the time it isn't). Unfortunately we try to sell, or convince, them of our reality. We dont have the right to do that.

As far as their view on things dont try to agree or disagree, simply show that you are listening and interested in what they are saying. Even asking questions to clarify. Allow them to vent if that is what they need.

Steer the subject onto what they want to say rather than whether you agree or not.

Whatever the views they are entitled to it, you can even say that, without being sarcastic
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« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2014, 05:37:53 AM »

I've personally left, while trying not to slam the door saying "If I stay here any longer, I'll say something that I'll regret later." (and trying not to shout).

Excellent!  I'm going to stick that one in the "toolbox". 

Hopefully I never have to use it!   Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2014, 05:40:20 AM »

Steer the subject onto what they want to say rather than whether you agree or not.

Whatever the views they are entitled to it, you can even say that, without being sarcastic

More very good tools!  Thanks Waverider   Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2014, 11:12:01 AM »

Isn't it obvious... .

... .you agree to disagree

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« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2014, 05:11:15 PM »

My son has a phrase "that makes sense". He means that it is logical given a certain experience to have certain reactions.

I can remember one of the on-going discussions (arguments) that uBPDh and I had a few years ago that were basically about his 'painting black' a group in which I was one of the leaders. Since I didn't feel the same way as he did, he decided that I didn't love him. I think that was one of the clearer moments that something was askew in his thought processes. I knew enough to know that we both couldn't be emotionally unstable.

Before I put the BPD pieces together, I would try to bring him back to the facts of the situation without adding interpretations and conjecture. Sometimes, that would help him to get a little more stable temporarily.

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« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2014, 11:05:54 AM »

As far as their view on things dont try to agree or disagree, simply show that you are listening and interested in what they are saying. Even asking questions to clarify. Allow them to vent if that is what they need.

Steer the subject onto what they want to say rather than whether you agree or not.

Whatever the views they are entitled to it, you can even say that, without being sarcastic

I think this is the hardest part for me because of bad learned behaviors(due to her disregulation).  Our current T was saying just that "Repeat it back to her just so that she 'hears' that you are listening".  It is probably one of the most difficult things after putting up with so much BS for all of these years.  And the most difficult one to do and keep a calm sane demeanor.  "So you are saying I don’t love you and never loved you" to have to say that with a straight face back to her just wrecks my brain.  I understand the logic that fills that 'needed to be herd' part of their mind.  I have a hard time with the follow on part of "then why don’t you do (insert what ever complaint)"
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« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2014, 12:49:23 PM »

And the most difficult one to do and keep a calm sane demeanor.  "So you are saying I don’t love you and never loved you" to have to say that with a straight face back to her just wrecks my brain.  I understand the logic that fills that 'needed to be herd' part of their mind.  I have a hard time with the follow on part of "then why don’t you do (insert what ever complaint)"

she is very upset. If you stay very calm that may be invalidating. If you don't feel calm, she is not calm at  all and you try to project calm - what is going to happen? You are not a professional actor from what I gather.

So don't pretend to be one. That is not going to fly. You will be seen as a pretender and your message will fall on deaf ears.

Without owning up to your emotions your emotions will be harder to control and there is a risk you boil over.

It is not about hiding your emotions - it is all about controlling your emotions, being authentic and where possible acknowledge her emotions first (SET principle). Some emotional involvement by you is needed to put power behind your words.
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« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2014, 04:02:06 PM »

The truth part of SET is hard for me.  Im sorry you are upset(S) I can really see that this upsets you(E) ?truth? I have a different opinion but I still love you?  I love you and this issues is not going to change that?

I will say that I am a bit stoic when she gets going.  Part of being exposed to this alternate emotional reality and from military training.  I can't see where the truth part validates her when she dosent believe it.  Maybe I just need more examples.  Ill look at the SET post again to see if I can refresh myself.  I just felt that I was just parroting the same thing over and over and not getting nowhere.
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« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2014, 04:18:34 PM »

The T part is hard but S & E without T can inadvertently feed a neediness for support. If she wants pity she will just start creating dramas to get your attention and more S & E, so it gets worse. The T, no matter how unpalatable is necessary to put a check on that. It also stops you feeling like a doormat.

Think of T as the world through your eyes rather than telling her it is the way she should see it. You are not trying to convince her of anything, just clarifing what your interpretations of a situation are.
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« Reply #15 on: July 11, 2014, 11:09:12 AM »

Hi reluctanthusband,

The truth part of SET is hard for me.  Im sorry you are upset(S) I can really see that this upsets you(E) ?truth? I have a different opinion but I still love you?  I love you and this issues is not going to change that?

I will say that I am a bit stoic when she gets going.  Part of being exposed to this alternate emotional reality and from military training.  I can't see where the truth part validates her when she dosent believe it.  Maybe I just need more examples.  Ill look at the SET post again to see if I can refresh myself.  I just felt that I was just parroting the same thing over and over and not getting nowhere.

It is worth working through the details here.

S: This needs to be supportive. This needs to be disarming. This is all about being seen not as immediate threat. This is about getting the permission to speak at all.

S: <give attention> or <show open hands> or "It may give you a perspective" or "The following may be helpful to understand" or "Please give me 2 min to tell you something"

E: "That you are upset is understandable." or "You are truly angry." or "It seems totally hopeless." or "You are under time pressure and don't want to spend time listening right now."

T: "Money is tight. Spending it on X will leave us no way to spend it on Y in the near future." or "Neither you nor my sister like each other. You are important to me and so is she. I maintain relationships  and that is my business. You don't need to like it." or ... .

You are saying you are a rationale being. Maybe time to study a little communication. Most is body language and voice - not the words. We are emotional beings - pwBPD are just a little more so (minus good regulation). Emotions matter hugely in decision processes of all of us. We are usually not so much aware but this is a testable, provable fact. One way to wrap your head around it is looking at the emotions, taking them as facts and factoring them into your reasoning. Lt. Commander Spock would approve of such a strategy.
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« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2014, 11:27:35 AM »

Emotions matter hugely in decision processes of all of us. We are usually not so much aware but this is a testable, provable fact. One way to wrap your head around it is looking at the emotions, taking them as facts and factoring them into your reasoning. Lt. Commander Spock would approve of such a strategy.

I hear you.  Emotions for me are difficult I can for the most part turn them off. It is hard to turn them on even to be authentic(during disregulation).  I am not always stoic, but when she gets disregulated I have to cope and turn mine off.  It has been the only way to survive the disregulation Wich seems to only exaserbate her disregulation I am learning.

How has it played out for you all when you started getting into the rythym of doing it right.  Did it just push the events farther and farther apart? Give you some space to talk about things rationally and work things out like adults, or was there never resolution on a significant event and you just agreed to disagree?
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« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2014, 11:28:08 AM »

You are saying you are a rationale being. Maybe time to study a little communication. Most is body language and voice - not the words. We are emotional beings - pwBPD are just a little more so (minus good regulation). Emotions matter hugely in decision processes of all of us. We are usually not so much aware but this is a testable, provable fact. One way to wrap your head around it is looking at the emotions, taking them as facts and factoring them into your reasoning. Lt. Commander Spock would approve of such a strategy.

I will second this!  I kept demanding that uBPDw... just focus on my words because I had a well formed argument.

She should ignore my raised voice... .defensive body position... .etc etc.

So... .on the one hand she shouldn't be falsely accusing me of something.  On the other hand my "defensive" vice "emotionally understanding" reaction only added fuel to the flames she was feeling (very intensely) at that moment.

So... .in my head... .I still think it "shouldn't work that way"... .BUT IT DOES.  So it's up to me to get over that and change... .not uBPDw.

As a practical matter... .after I made some changes along these lines... .uBPDw did as well.  And the temperature is much lower.

THIS WAS A CRITICAL THING FOR ME TO LEARN AND ACTUALLY PRACTICE.  Not saying I'm perfect... .but it makes a difference.  She can see I'm trying.  I can see she is trying.

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« Reply #18 on: July 11, 2014, 12:09:01 PM »

If one studies the history of conflicts it can be amazing how important emotions are. We all think it is about fact but often it is about emotions and often one is respect (of boundaries). This is not saying that facts don't matter immensely as nobody has found so far a way to defy the laws of physics. What goes up generally comes down again unless you are NASA which plays by similar rules on a larger scale. But when it comes to decision making the neurons in our brain in combination with the b&w deciding amygdala are governed by priorities that discount longer term rationale aspects and are concerned with internal emotional state and immediacy.

Validation helps to regulate the emotional state and thus improves overall decision making by leaving more space for rationale thinking to have an impact. Fruzzetti says that validating to invalidating exchange ratio is a very good predictor of whether a couple stays together. In healthy relationship it is 5:1. He does not say how it is in unhealthy ones but I suspect it could be 1:5. The good news is that this ratio can be shifted through education and that this shift seems sticky. For members with partners receiving DBT this is excellent news - their partner is getting education on validation through DBT and the board supports the member on that front. For members where partners are not in therapy the progress they control is limited to

  1) avoiding invalidation (very important as 1 invalidation needs 5 validations to get to a healthy ratio. Also invalidation fuels conflict leading to more invalidation.)

  2) plenty of validation

which decreases conflict a lot. And when implemented consistently and sustained it can also happen

  3) partner learns to self validate to an extent.

  4) partner catches on through emulation, through some form of therapy or reading the High Conflict Couple etc... Validation is sense making so it makes sense to validate. There are tangible benefits for the person validating.

Progress is gradual although one may experience break throughs where thinking and doing come together. Progress manifests itself often as lower frequency of dysregulation, shorter duration of dysregulation, less severity of dysregulation and greater distress tolerance. As these events are often very random it is hard to see a pattern. Boundary introduction also brings in distress adding initially to the distress until they help to foster self regulation. The randomness makes it very hard to sustain a course for members here - there is a risk that one gets intermittent feedback. That it becomes a gamble. Walking on eggshells and not trying to crush one is such a gamble. It is addictive and a loosing strategy. For better or worse we are the more mature party here. We need to see the overall picture, work on our skills and march into a healthy direction. We can't control the other side but we can control ourselves.
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« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2014, 02:24:30 PM »

Progress is gradual although one may experience break throughs where thinking and doing come together. 

Exactly what just happened in my r/s.  I was offended that a plan (that we both made) was changed by her involving kids.  Nothing dangerous... I just wasn't thought of. 

I was able to maintain myself and not bring it up to MC.  After the event and before MC we had a couple good "dates".  Absolutely fabulous times together.

Well... one of her issues for me was the "immediacy" of me trying to correct a wrong against me.  She didn't like that and had brought it up in counseling several times.  She got a clear view that in this instance I changed (wasn't immediate) and brought it up appropriately.  This was huge for her... .she really appreciated it. 

She was able to see that my emotional reaction to the change in plans was a big deal to me.  Since then I have gotten numerous phone calls and texts letting me have input on changes.  I really appreciated that.

Follow that up with a good talk about finances... .and taking some action steps there.

Hoping to further validate things with a good weekend with kids and her doing fun things... .like going to pool.
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« Reply #20 on: July 11, 2014, 03:00:09 PM »

Excerpt
And the most difficult one to do and keep a calm sane demeanor.  "So you are saying I don’t love you and never loved you" to have to say that with a straight face back to her just wrecks my brain.

The trick here is that they 'feel like' you don't love them; it is their feelings rather than a statement of your reality. It can be really tempting to try to defend your love for them, but resisting that temptation and allowing them to express their emotions and feelings is different than stating that their feelings are what you actually feel/think.
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« Reply #21 on: July 11, 2014, 03:27:44 PM »

It can help us sometimes to qualify statements about hostile emotions with "Right now.". It allows us to be stronger and at the same time touch on the transitory aspect of emotions.

"Right now you totally hate me and can't understand how you can love me."
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waverider
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« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2014, 08:41:15 PM »

It can help us sometimes to qualify statements about hostile emotions with "Right now.". It allows us to be stronger and at the same time touch on the transitory aspect of emotions.

"Right now you totally hate me and can't understand how you can love me."

I have used methods along these lines before. My partner is aware of her BPD and we can discuss it openly. This means she is aware of the way she thinks that now is forever thought process. Reminding her of this cuts through a lot of drama. It can also be comforting for her too.
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« Reply #23 on: July 12, 2014, 09:37:54 PM »

My uBPDw absolutely HATES it when I bring it up(usually never) I get rage fueled hate storm if I bring it up.   If she was ok about it I think I would be in a different mindset.
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« Reply #24 on: July 13, 2014, 12:45:48 AM »

My uBPDw absolutely HATES it when I bring it up(usually never) I get rage fueled hate storm if I bring it up.   If she was ok about it I think I would be in a different mindset.

Took a long time before we were at that stage. it was stormy times getting there
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