Interesting talk with DSD17 AFTER court over...

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

DSD17 is hugely enmeshed with her BPD mom.  We have been through court for years, the GAL was buying everything BPD mom was saying.  Our attorney constantly was griping at the GAL for never getting our side of the story.  It was horrible... .but now it is over.  I am sorry to say that DSD was involved in some of the craziness... .even got to the point where she was calling the GAL and "telling" on us for stupid things where she was twisting things herself. 

This is our last summer month ever with DSD, and because BPD mom fought to keep her away, DH has less than standard visitation with her (the boys, who are younger, now have less than standard with their BPD mom, too, which is why we agreed to it).  DSD is probably going to regret telling the GAL all she told him eventually, and I am sure it is just now hitting her that she won't be seeing her siblings that much anymore because of what she said.

Anyway, I had an interesting talk with her the other day.  The general thing I did was to throw the GAL under the bus.  I did not talk about her mom at all.  I told her that I didn't think she was ready to hear the whole truth about all that had been happening, and she agreed that she did not want to know the truth (interesting, eh?)

First I told her about DH and I not feeling safe the last four years.  I talked about that throughout the conversation--how we have been falsely accused of all kinds of things. Forgive me for my rambling here--this is not in sequential order, I am sure.  I talked about how conversations have been twisted every which way, which is why DH always had a witness when talking with the kids and why every conversation was documented (told her we probably have 150 pages of documented conversations to discuss all of the accusations).  I talked about how the GAL did not do his job--he talked with DH about one hour total this entire case (FOUR YEARS LONG).  How the GAL would go to our attorney with crazy accusations all the time, and our attorney would scold him for not even bothering to ask DH's side.  I even told her about the time the GAL DID call DH, and how he told DH that if he didn't agree to pay all of this money (didn't tell her what, but he wanted DH to pay all of BPD mom's attorney's fees), that the GAL would make sure he lost the boys, too.    She seemed surprised by that.  I told her that I even got a call from an attorney once about a false accusation out there about me... .an attorney I didn't know making sure something was not true before he hired me.  I told her that people from facebook that DH didn't even know were messaging him letting him know about false allegations/rumors about him that they had heard and had offered to testify in his behalf if criminal charges were brought up because they knew the allegations were not true.   I told her that the GAL just believed everything he heard... .that he apparently thought that DH was dangerous to DSD or evil or something.  I let  her know that DH had asked for counseling with DSD within DAYS of that deposition where he found out DSD was not his, but the GAL didn't care.  I said that the GAL has even been blocking the counseling because he will do anything to protect DSD from her dad.

She talked about the termination suit being hurtful.  I agreed--told her that never in a million years did we think she would find out about it.  She started to try to defend how she accidentally found out, but I stopped her--just said, "I don't care how you found out--I just want you to understand that we never thought you would."  She said, "I probably would eventually," and I said, "Why?  We wouldn't tell you."  She seemed to understand it as being a "political maneuver" but thought it was a pretty terrible one. I agreed (I empathized more than I am indicating here).  She hinted that we were lying by not telling her about it again.  I asked if we were then lying by not telling her about all of these other political maneuvers that have been wagered against us that also involve her.  She said no, because she has chosen not to know about them. SOO I once again gave her the option of learning the truth, and she admitted she did not want to know the truth... .hmmmm... .

She was also upset about how DH took her recently (the papers at the time had said that he had primary).  I told her that I understood her being upset by it--that DH was doing what he thought was best for her.  I told her that he sees the clock ticking and how he has been asking for counseling for four years, and he knows she is almost 18.  I told her that DH has to look at himself in the mirror and know that he did everything he could do to try to save their relationship.  I told her that I stayed in my first marriage longer than most would have because I had to be able to tell my kids that I did everything I could to make sure they did not come from a broken home--I had to do that to be able to live with myself.  DH had to come get her and try to fix things to be able to live with himself and know that he did everything he could.  I told her that there is no way ten years down the road that she can ever accuse him of throwing her away when he has spent about $40k and two years just to get counseling with her--that is should not be that much of a fight to get counseling.  I told her that he may be grumbly, and he may not communicate well with her verbally, but his actions should speak loud and clear. 

I will say in general, DSD didn't seem surprised by most of this... .makes me think that she KNOWS her mom has been making false allegations... .maybe even enlisting her help knowingly.  Makes me even wonder if she KNOWS what the big accusation was in the first place (she said she didn't want to know, but maybe she already does?).

I think my DD16 had talked with her the day before and had kind of told her some of this--how we were being falsely accused of things constantly--so maybe that helped her be more open to it.  I was surprised that she was not defensive, to be honest.  She usually will defend her mom even if we aren't talking about her mom.  She made this bed for herself for the next year--she has to lie in it--maybe that is why she does not want to know entire truth of her mom telling people that DH sexually abused her.

[sanemom]

DSD17 is hugely enmeshed with her BPD mom.  We have been through court for years, the GAL was buying everything BPD mom was saying.  Our attorney constantly was griping at the GAL for never getting our side of the story.  It was horrible... .but now it is over.  I am sorry to say that DSD was involved in some of the craziness... .even got to the point where she was calling the GAL and "telling" on us for stupid things where she was twisting things herself. 

This is our last summer month ever with DSD, and because BPD mom fought to keep her away, DH has less than standard visitation with her (the boys, who are younger, now have less than standard with their BPD mom, too, which is why we agreed to it).  DSD is probably going to regret telling the GAL all she told him eventually, and I am sure it is just now hitting her that she won't be seeing her siblings that much anymore because of what she said.

Anyway, I had an interesting talk with her the other day.  The general thing I did was to throw the GAL under the bus.  I did not talk about her mom at all.  I told her that I didn't think she was ready to hear the whole truth about all that had been happening, and she agreed that she did not want to know the truth (interesting, eh?)

First I told her about DH and I not feeling safe the last four years.  I talked about that throughout the conversation--how we have been falsely accused of all kinds of things. Forgive me for my rambling here--this is not in sequential order, I am sure.  I talked about how conversations have been twisted every which way, which is why DH always had a witness when talking with the kids and why every conversation was documented (told her we probably have 150 pages of documented conversations to discuss all of the accusations).  I talked about how the GAL did not do his job--he talked with DH about one hour total this entire case (FOUR YEARS LONG).  How the GAL would go to our attorney with crazy accusations all the time, and our attorney would scold him for not even bothering to ask DH's side.  I even told her about the time the GAL DID call DH, and how he told DH that if he didn't agree to pay all of this money (didn't tell her what, but he wanted DH to pay all of BPD mom's attorney's fees), that the GAL would make sure he lost the boys, too.    She seemed surprised by that.  I told her that I even got a call from an attorney once about a false accusation out there about me... .an attorney I didn't know making sure something was not true before he hired me.  I told her that people from facebook that DH didn't even know were messaging him letting him know about false allegations/rumors about him that they had heard and had offered to testify in his behalf if criminal charges were brought up because they knew the allegations were not true.   I told her that the GAL just believed everything he heard... .that he apparently thought that DH was dangerous to DSD or evil or something.  I let  her know that DH had asked for counseling with DSD within DAYS of that deposition where he found out DSD was not his, but the GAL didn't care.  I said that the GAL has even been blocking the counseling because he will do anything to protect DSD from her dad.

She talked about the termination suit being hurtful.  I agreed--told her that never in a million years did we think she would find out about it.  She started to try to defend how she accidentally found out, but I stopped her--just said, "I don't care how you found out--I just want you to understand that we never thought you would."  She said, "I probably would eventually," and I said, "Why?  We wouldn't tell you."  She seemed to understand it as being a "political maneuver" but thought it was a pretty terrible one. I agreed (I empathized more than I am indicating here).  She hinted that we were lying by not telling her about it again.  I asked if we were then lying by not telling her about all of these other political maneuvers that have been wagered against us that also involve her.  She said no, because she has chosen not to know about them. SOO I once again gave her the option of learning the truth, and she admitted she did not want to know the truth... .hmmmm... .

She was also upset about how DH took her recently (the papers at the time had said that he had primary).  I told her that I understood her being upset by it--that DH was doing what he thought was best for her.  I told her that he sees the clock ticking and how he has been asking for counseling for four years, and he knows she is almost 18.  I told her that DH has to look at himself in the mirror and know that he did everything he could do to try to save their relationship.  I told her that I stayed in my first marriage longer than most would have because I had to be able to tell my kids that I did everything I could to make sure they did not come from a broken home--I had to do that to be able to live with myself.  DH had to come get her and try to fix things to be able to live with himself and know that he did everything he could.  I told her that there is no way ten years down the road that she can ever accuse him of throwing her away when he has spent about $40k and two years just to get counseling with her--that is should not be that much of a fight to get counseling.  I told her that he may be grumbly, and he may not communicate well with her verbally, but his actions should speak loud and clear. 

I will say in general, DSD didn't seem surprised by most of this... .makes me think that she KNOWS her mom has been making false allegations... .maybe even enlisting her help knowingly.  Makes me even wonder if she KNOWS what the big accusation was in the first place (she said she didn't want to know, but maybe she already does?).

I think my DD16 had talked with her the day before and had kind of told her some of this--how we were being falsely accused of things constantly--so maybe that helped her be more open to it.  I was surprised that she was not defensive, to be honest.  She usually will defend her mom even if we aren't talking about her mom.  She made this bed for herself for the next year--she has to lie in it--maybe that is why she does not want to know entire truth of her mom telling people that DH sexually abused her.

[DreamGirl]

Do you feel better after talking to her?

Do you think she does?

[sanemom]

I DO feel better... .it is the first talk I have had with her alone in well over a year for fear of how it will get twisted.  There is still a part of me wary of her possibly manipulating us, but I guess that is nothing that good boundaries can't help.

I am not sure if she feels better or not--I am sure part of her wants to live in denial of all the damage that has been done... .all the hurt that has been caused... .by the false allegations of her and her BPD mom.  I didn't say it, but she knows she was a part of the crazy allegations.  She loved to text the GAL and tell on DH with a cognitive distortion.  I didn't talk about who did it--just that it was hurtful. 

One thing I WILL say is that up until that talk, she was ignoring DH, saying she was mad at him for taking her back.  I think my explanation may have warmed her a bit as she has since started talking to him.  So maybe that part of her feels better... .the part that wants to pretend BPD mom has done nothing wrong is probably not feeling better.

[Matt]

Your attorney sounds weak and incompetent.

[sanemom]

Your attorney sounds weak and incompetent.

I don't think he was.  He tried to get the GAL to talk with DH to get his side of different accusations, but when he finally convinced the GAL to contact DH, the GAL didn't ask questions.  Rather, he threatened DH that if he didn't pay BPD mom's attorney bills, he would make sure that DH lost the boys as well.  DH wanted nothing to do with the GAL after that.  I think the bottom line is the GAL thought he was getting all of his information from DSD; what the GAL didn't understand AT ALL was that DSD would tell the GAL whatever BPD mom wanted her to tell him. 

The attorney managed to get a family therapist and another therapist court appointed to counter the GAL, but at the end of the day, the GAL plays golf with the judge, and the judge completely turned on us at the last minute and pretty much refused to hear our evidence.  It's a good ol' boy system.  I truly think that the judge was trying to save the GAL's $$ because he realized how badly he screwed up.  Other people (I am friends with one of the family judge's wife) believe that is what happened as well.  

The only good that has come from this disaster is greater awareness of high conflict people, and the GAL has gotten quite a bit of negative publicity as a result (therapists talk, especially female therapists, and there aren't a ton who actively do court work around here).  When all is said and done, I will be actively publicizing what happened to us in order to prevent this from happening to other children.