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Author Topic: How to validate without enabling ... so hard  (Read 372 times)
takingandsending
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« on: July 12, 2014, 06:15:19 PM »

I just spent the last 30 minutes with my uBPDw in a car unsuccessfully discussing whether or not she is in agreement with letting our oldest son, 9 years old, watch his first Star Wars movie. So angry how there are no safe conversations with her. In the past year or so, I have been parenting solo when she is not around, because everything around our oldest son is so charged for her. She has made him into her abuser and blames him for her unhappiness (me as well).

When I asked if she was open to discussing my son watching this movie, she said she couldn't go there. It was a vague answer, so I said that I saw she was distressed and asked if she could express her concerns, asked if there was anything that would alleviate them. She got angry, felt put on the spot, blaming me for not respecting her. I tried to validate that she was frustrated, that it was hard to communicate about this, and noted that I had explored with a question not out of desire for getting a specific answer but to try to understand her better. She complained that she had no foundation for responding. I didn't really no what that meant, but acknowledged her continued distress and advised we discuss it at another time.

Somehow, despite continually attempting to validate the valid, not invalidate the valid, not validate the valid, I could make no progress to ameliorating her upset. At some point, it became about me wanting to do stuff with my son that would leave her out in the cold (bingo - abandonment) and then it was about her fear of giving our son anything that he is passionate about for fear that it would drive him further apart from him. At this point, I was at a pretty heightened emotional arousal myself and just hanging on for dear life to not yell back. I continued to acknowledge that she was suffering, told her it was frustrating for me too not to be able to communicate clearly and easily.

As soon as the we got home, I told her a cooling off period was necessary for me. I have no idea how to come back together. There are times where I think I can understand what is going on for her, but it just feels like everyone in my house has to dance to her tune, and she makes no sense! I wish I could just tell her she has an illness and to go get help. Feeling like I failed this time out. I know I will try again. Just hard to understand how to self heal in this environment.
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an0ught
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« Reply #1 on: July 13, 2014, 12:45:05 PM »

Hi takingandsending,

sounds like you are getting it. There are limits what one can achieve with validation. It is important to be clear what validation is about and what it is not about. Validation is about

- deeper understanding for us

- knowing emotions on the other side so it becomes clearer to us that these are no ours. Validation stops a lot of projection in its tracks.

- loving support of self understanding on the other side which helps to regulate

Validation is not about

- controlling emotions on the other side. Yeah, it's tempting to think about it this way but that path is fraught with disappointment. If use this angle to measure success we get hit and miss and are on our way to play games.

When you get the feeling that validation is pointless and just enables her to rage at you then it is time for boundaries. You still may to validate that you two don't agree, have a conflict you can't resolve right now and you feel exhausted and will take a break.

When kids become teenagers pwBPD often struggle more. Teens are prone to cause conflicts - unregulated emotions in combination with not structured boundary setting tends to do that. PwBPD add their own dimension to this growing up drama.

It is worth thinking where you two need to be in agreement and where not. Your conflict was in part caused by you seeking agreement with her. She was not able to do that for whatever deeply held belief. It may have been better to take the position that S.F. movies are a male thing and you think he is ready and you will go with him. She may be upset with the decision and action but that is ok. Your son is growing up, has an own position now and it will be even harder to get everyone on one page. And not everything deserves this level of unity. If you need unanimous consent for everything you are going to end up with lowest common denominator education for your son. You are a family but you are also all individuals who disagree at times.

Let's turn it around for a second: Your wife does a lot of things you don't like and make you upset. Would it be easier for you if she would force you to agree to the nonsense beforehand?

Sometimes one has to act unilateral. Sometimes this means stepping over a boundary of our partners. Our partners are very sensitive and have plenty of boundaries around them. Some make sense (like not agreeing to something she does not feel is right), some make no sense and some are just strongly held believes. Star Wars not being good is a belief to which she is entitled to. Considering the stuff youth is exposed these days it makes however sense to let your son also have a say what media to consume - your ability to control that is going to go quickly in any case. Both invalidating her belief or crossing boundaries are going to come with a price. The latter is more problematic as mutual respect is vital in our relationships. In that light I would go with son to the movie but won't play games / hide it as that would violate the trust in the relationship.
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takingandsending
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« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2014, 01:21:31 AM »

Thanks, an0ught. I later read on one of the posts here that validation isn't meant to help a dysregulated partner come back down to regulated thinking/behavior. I don't believe that I have ever been terribly good with setting boundaries, and while this marriage has been great for giving me the incentive to practice, anyone's boundaries other than her's don't get much respect. I did have some success over the 4th of July with maintaining space and not being pulled into multiple personal attacks. It feels so damned exhausting though ... .too much cortisol is not good for human bodies.

Regarding media, my son attends a Waldorf school. We have no television in our house, and we try to be limited in phone/computer time ourselves around our young children. That said, we had agreed that my oldest son could see one movie a month - a commitment that we have not kept to him because of uBPDw's unwillingness to discuss it whenever he asks or I ask about it. I fear that I am teaching my son the agree at all costs approach, but I am trying to unlearn my own self destructive behaviors for both of my kids' sake.

I think, though, that your sentiments are very close to what she may have been feeling. She doesn't relate to SF. Rather than that being the end of the story, it gets amplified into shame and increased discomfort. My mistake was thinking that asking questions with sincerity could lead to dialog. I am not at the point of learning SET, but that likely would have been the best thing for me to do at that point. I will just advise of what I am doing with my son so that she does not have the hurt of me going behind her back.

Admission: I am going to NAMI meetings every other week, but haven't been 100% honest about that with her for two reasons: 1) I really need to connect with people and get help for myself and I don't want to fight to have to do it; 2) I don't want to stigmatize her. Any suggestions there? I initially came up with a lame invention of going to a hiking/climbing meeting. I couldn't lie when she inquired, though. I admitted that I was going to a self-help group which she filled in as a Dad's parenting group. I didn't disabuse her of that notion.

But it seems so limiting, though, to assume her reaction. I really don't know how she would respond, but our T, who diagnosed her to me privately, recommended that I not talk to her openly about this out of concern that it would stigmatize her/drive her further into isolation. But her hypersensitivity and intuition already led her to conclude last night that I think she has a mental illness. I am very aware that I carry the thought of my wife as the problem, the cause, etc. of my experience of unhappiness. I know, deep down, it is my own tape/filters that are the cause of my unhappiness, regardless of her behaviors. It's one thing knowing it but another to be steeped in the experience of that knowledge. I am committed to healing my own distorted views so that I can teach my children. I just wish I could work through my hurt/ambivalence toward continuing a RS with my wife. I don't want to rush , but I am longing for ground under my feet. We are both longing for an RS that is not so fraught with clashing, distance and lack of support. Agonizing right now. I guess that's what this forum and family are for. I sure would appreciate some kind thought right about now.  :'(

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rl669
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« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2014, 10:46:21 AM »

I can tell you that, if your conversation with your wife about Star Wars is representative of the relationship in general, then our partners are quite similar in terms of how the disorder manifests.

I have found validation useful really only as a way of potentially defusing an explosive situation, but for me it only works on occasion. My wife is very alert to being "handled", and reacts badly, frequently accusing me of patronizing her. Partly because I guess that validation can come across as somewhat patronizing, and partly because (I believe) expressing crazy opinions and insisting that I go along with them, is on some level an attempt to create conflict. Which is frequently what my wife really wants. So if I try to talk her down thru validation, it thwarts her objective.

She's not interested in dialog. She's not interested in trying to improve our understanding of each other. For me, it's all about finding spurious excuses to express her anger.

What interested me when we did MC was, firstly, that my wife - in spite of manifesting latent or overt hostility towards me most of the time - was actually not particularly keen to discuss our relationship in any great detail with the counsellor. I did almost all the talking and my wife would only respond to questions addressed specifically to her.

The conclusion I drew from that was that she isn't really interested in improving our relationship through better communication and understanding. She didn't want to discuss issues around different outlooks and belief systems, or specific things that she didn't like about me. And she bailed on the sessions as soon as she respectably could, i.e. when we'd done about 10 sessions and she could reasonably say she'd given it a try and it didn't work.

So my take on it now is, I will stick with the relationship for the time being, while the children are growing up, and I am working on being more assertive. I am concerned that I have been teaching my children that the way to handle bullies is to give into them, however outrageous the demand.

So now, I am trying to work on emotional distance where differences of opinion happen. I try to firmly tell my wife that I disagree with her on that specific issue, and although I respect her opinion, I'm going to go my own way on that one. As I say, I'm trying this approach more for the children than anything else.

BTW, I have a track record of 17 years of abject failure, so please don't take this as advice. I'm just sharing as I recognise some of my scenario in yours.

Best of luck!


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IsItHerOrIsItMe
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« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2014, 12:06:53 PM »

She's not interested in dialog. She's not interested in trying to improve our understanding of each other. For me, it's all about finding spurious excuses to express her anger.

I can't count the number of times my uBPDw said she's bringing up the same conversation yet again because she "want's to understand my view". 

I finally realized she has no desire to understand me... .it ain't that hard.

She's bringing it up yet again so that finally I might give in and say she's right.  I'm sure there's a part that just wants to express her anger, but if she actually convinced me one of her odd theories was correct then I'm sure we wouldn't have to rehash it 5 times a week.
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takingandsending
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« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2014, 03:07:22 PM »

Hi rl669.

You are correct. The conversation I shared is on par for anything that my wife does not like or relate to. And I have to agree that the course that you propose is exactly what I was thinking when I learned from our T that my wife is BPD. That said, I tried emotional distance and stonewalling as a coping method for the last 5 years. I am just now starting to look at my part in our sad dance. My concern is that, while it has afforded me some protection from the verbal abuse, it has exacerbated my wife's sensitivity and reactivity, making it worse for my children and me. After joining this site and board, I am rethinking my approach and trying to see that if I can defuse my own part, my defensiveness and reactions, I might (no certainty) reduce the tension in our house.

I completely respect your approach and truly appreciate your letting me know that I am not alone in this. Can I ask a question? Have things improved for your children since you adopted more distance and more assertive boundaries? I absolutely need to work on my boundaries and asserting them. I, too, don't want to model passivity, indifference, hiding, etc. for my boys. I also don't want to harm them, though, by being afraid to look at my own part in this, and in doing so, igniting the rage attacks that they have already experienced. I appreciate your thoughts. Thank you.
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rl669
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« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2014, 05:03:07 AM »

Hi rl669.

You are correct. The conversation I shared is on par for anything that my wife does not like or relate to. And I have to agree that the course that you propose is exactly what I was thinking when I learned from our T that my wife is BPD. That said, I tried emotional distance and stonewalling as a coping method for the last 5 years. I am just now starting to look at my part in our sad dance. My concern is that, while it has afforded me some protection from the verbal abuse, it has exacerbated my wife's sensitivity and reactivity, making it worse for my children and me. After joining this site and board, I am rethinking my approach and trying to see that if I can defuse my own part, my defensiveness and reactions, I might (no certainty) reduce the tension in our house.

I completely respect your approach and truly appreciate your letting me know that I am not alone in this. Can I ask a question? Have things improved for your children since you adopted more distance and more assertive boundaries? I absolutely need to work on my boundaries and asserting them. I, too, don't want to model passivity, indifference, hiding, etc. for my boys. I also don't want to harm them, though, by being afraid to look at my own part in this, and in doing so, igniting the rage attacks that they have already experienced. I appreciate your thoughts. Thank you.

It's still early days for me with the new strategy.

I'm interested to hear that you believe the emotional distance and stonewalling exacerbated your wife's sensitivity and reactivity. Are you sure about that? Do you think you could be working on a false premise that there must be a "normal" human being lurking there somewhere who wants equanimity and peace?

The reason I ask is that I have over the years tried many different techniques to improve my relationship with my wife, and none has really had much positive effect. It seems to me that my wife's mood and emotional lability is cyclical, and there isn't much I can do to affect it. My wife's resistence to trying to work on our relationship herself, or indeed to try doing anything differently herself, suggests that on some level she feels comfortable with the status quo. I can't make her change.

My T (who I continued seeing after my wife quit MC) suggested that I leave my wife because she would never change. She said that people need an incentive to change, and that for my wife, there is an active disincentive. My wife's internal dialogue tells her to keep fighting to get her own way, whatever the cost. Any change in the dynamic of our relationship is likely to mean accepting that either we make decisions together, or that sometimes, I win. So, my T theorized, my wife is likely to proactively fight any attempt to "improve" our relationship.

So far, her analysis seems plausible.

Instead of trying to "fix" my wife, that's why I've decided to focus simply on trying to be a better model for my children. I feel that this is a more realistic goal. I am going to continue to try to treat my wife kindly. When I mention emotional distance, what I mean is I am trying to be more Zen about the crazy conflicts we have. In the past, I have on occasion found the bait irresistible and have reacted angrily. Now, through my understanding that there is no silver bullet solution to this, I am (so far) less inclined to react to any provocation. There's no point in trying to remonstrate and show her that she's got it wrong. And understanding that has been helpful to me. My priorities have changed so I'm no longer trying to molify her, or set her straight. I am now trying to keep myself calm, and show the children that you react to provocation by staying calm and reasonable, but that if compromise isn't possible and you believe you're right, you calmly hold your ground.

Sounds easy. No doubt I will screw up.

You asked if things had improved for my children. I have two children, D10 and S6. My son is pretty oblivious to all this. My daughter definitely considers me to be the anchor of the family. I have up to a point confided in her that we have to treat mommy especially respectfully and kindly, without exactly spelling out why, but she gets it.

So that's my 2 cents' worth. Please keep sharing your experiences, because I am not the guru here, and I'd like to know how you get on.
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joshbjoshb
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« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2014, 09:18:16 AM »

I am not an emotional person by nature, but this last post for some reason really touched my heart. Because you expressed so well what I am going through. When you described how you had to hint to your daughter I wanted to cry. I have a daughter similar age, she is very mature and understanding, and I feel so sad for her because of the fact her mother is basically not emotionally available.

And when I see how my wife turned out because her mother was not emotionally available, I get really worried.
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takingandsending
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« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2014, 10:10:20 AM »

joshjoshb and rl669,

Thank you so much both for taking the time to reply. I was also touched by your relationship with your daughter in these difficult circumstances. I am the safe harbor for my S9 and S3, as well, and I am coming to accept that my wife will likely never be an emotionally safe person for either of the boys. Which is heartbreaking.

I can only relate my own experience, which is that the tension in my household has only gone up these past 5 years, where I began to emotionally detach and tune out my wife during her attacks. I reasoned that it was harming me to extend love when it was not being extended to me. Reasonable enough. I now believe, though, that it was harming me to not extend love because that is my true nature. In the same way, it is incredibly harmful to my BPDw as she has disallowed herself to love out of whatever thought pattern is playing out within her. I don't know that I believe there is a "normal" person hiding in there, but I do believe that we all have a buddha nature within us. That is my practice, so I know that it may not resonate with everyone. I think what I am seeing is that I need to embrace this pain that I am feeling and get to some level of acceptance before I can truly move on. I so want to move on right now, but I am pretty certain that I would end up repeating the same emotional mistakes again. I am looking at my history and realize that I grew up with an uBPDm, and I have, on some levels, recreated the environment of uncertainty, fear and holding everything within me. I no longer feel responsible for uBPDw's suffering or hurts, but like you, I want to do what's best for my children. I completely agree that not provoking a fight, not engaging in attempts to be provoked and holding ground when in disagreement are the way to model behavior for my kids. I just want to let them see, too, that it might be possible to maintain an open heart while doing so. I think you are doing a great job, guru or otherwise, and I appreciate the difficulty of the path you are walking and your integrity. Thank you.
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