Unearthing the real issue at hand

[coasterhusband]

One of the biggest struggles of having a dBPDw is not the constantly getting yelled at or having her in a near constant state of delicate balance between (marginally) happy and sad. It's the energy it takes in trying to figure out what's really causing the issue at hand. Example:

This past weekend, my wife lost a stack of papers related to a free time hobby project she's working on. She lost it about how she doesn't have an office space in our house. She went off on how I have one and she doesn't and that she needs one for her business, etc. etc. When I tried to suggest that I was, as I've mentioned many times, willing to move my space to the finished garage, giving her my current office space, it become a huge thing. Fighting ensued. I kept asking why, after all the times I've talked to her about doing something different, about willingly giving her space, she continues to berate me for "not being willing to change". It turned into a big fight.

In the middle of this fight, she finally gets to a point where she tells me what I think was the real issue: her concerns about her current health problems.

How is any reasonable person supposed to suss out that she's yelling at me about office space because she's scared about her medical condition?

This happens all the time and I'm honestly not sure what I'm supposed to be doing here... .am I supposed to be on the constant search for true meaning? She's absolutely incapable of simply coming to me and saying "XYZ is on my mind", and it always comes out in the form of blame. Of course she's never going to hear me when I try to tell her that if she wants support for the medical stuff, she probably shouldn't attempt to get it by yelling at me about an unrelated issue.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[mace17]

It is hard to figure out the underlying issues sometimes.  Have you tried validating that she is upset and asking what is bothering her?  I know my H does this too, he had a huge blow-up over a simple question I asked once and was angry with me for 2 days, and I finally found out later that his checking account balance was not what he thought it should be and that was why he was really upset.  But what he yelled at me about was because I asked when we should give our son his birthday present and he accused me of ruining all the holidays by occasionally letting him have a present when it wasn't the actually special day.  Now how could I have ever made the connection between that and his checking account balance?  I realize how difficult it can be to find out the real underlying issues sometimes behind a pwBPD's anger.

[JohnLove]

Oh, coasterhusband, I so know what you mean. When you take valid steps to resolve or even resolve their "problem" they often want to keep fighting about it. How does that even make sense?. It doesn't.

To be confronted with "you are not willing to change" right at the time you are expressing these very changes to meet HER needs?. That is mental illness.

How is any reasonable person supposed to... .?. They aren't. You need to be really attuned to your pwBPD thoughts and feelings. You need to know what they're thinking. You need an awareness of all the little details that they've left out. Things they don't want you to know. You need to study the concept of validation. All it's levels. Then apply it. You will fall down. You will get back up. You will study some more. There will be advancements in technique or delivery. You will need to update your knowledge because even though you are doing everything you possibly can. It's not enough. You will master this stuff eventually if you just keep trying to perfect yourself... .

Sorry... .I was trying to be helpful... .but I think I just vented.

I am sorry for your wife's medical condition and her anxiety related to this. It is not uncommon for pwBPD emotional condition to also adversely affect their physical condition.

I have heard the mantra healthy body, healthy mind since I was a kid but in the case of BPD it seems healthy mind, healthy body.

Women in general skirt around their real needs hoping their partner will instinctively "know" what's wrong. Men are much more direct. Add in BPD and WOW... .(WOW is not an acronym for anything. It's just my way of expressing astonishment!.)

[flowerpath]

Yes, coasterhusband.  There truly is nothing like being the target of someone's anger when you didn't have anything to do with what the person is angry about and you have no idea what the source of the anger is.   The experience sometimes borders on bizarre and can definitely leave your head spinning.   Day to day life is hard enough as it is without trying to field what is going on in the mind of a mentally ill person.

I think there will always be times of being blindsided, but believe there is value in studying and recognizing the behaviors, then applying what we are learning through therapy and the lessons, articles, and suggestions here - and applying them again and again - to become stronger ourselves.     

[maxsterling]

The real issue?  She has BPD 

I mean that as a half-joke, and half serious.  Since she has BPD that means:

-90% of the time she is upset with something, it has nothing to do with you, despite her telling you that it has to do with you

-There is a 99.9% chance that once she is upset, there is nothing you can do to fix that.  So even if she claims she is steaming mad because the trash can is full, even if you take the trash out that won't solve her problem. 

-95% of the time she claims to be upset at you, there really was nothing you could have done differently to prevent it. 

In short, as you have discovered, she's upset about something, and you happened to be in the room.  The other week my fiancé was quite irritated.  I could sense it.  I can sense by her tone of voice, her nagging, her complaints of headaches.  She eventually blamed me for causing her distress, for trying to "control" her, for keeping her life and our relationship in limbo, etc.  And what was really bothering her?  She had been told she had gotten a job, and then did not hear back from the employer for a week with the details.  It was eating her up, and she felt her life was worthless.  And rather than tell me what was really bothering her, she blamed me for her life discomfort.  Other times thinks like this have happened, she will blame me for not asking her what's wrong.  Sorry, I come from the camp that says if something is bothering you and you want comfort or someone to talk to about it, don't make them guess.

My best suggestion here, is that pay attention to her moods.  And way before she gets a chance to blame you for anything, you probably notice her mood going south.  Say something like, "Honey, you seem stressed."  Then either ask if she wants to talk about anything, or make a guess about what you think is going on.  If she is receptive and opens up, be sure to validate the hell out of her emotions.  And if she seems agitated or says she doesn't want to talk, say "okay, I am here if you need me" then back away.

[waverider]

Ask questions and dont offer solutions. By offering solutions which generally have nothing to do with the underlying issue she is getting the message that you are not listening, or taking control.

Asking questions is often the best way of demonstrating that you are listening.

Often they dont even know what the underlying issue is, so if you ask questions you are often helping them work it out.

[Zon]

Ask questions and dont offer solutions. By offering solutions which generally have nothing to do with the underlying issue she is getting the message that you are not listening, or taking control.

Asking questions is often the best way of demonstrating that you are listening.

Often they dont even know what the underlying issue is, so if you ask questions you are often helping them work it out.

I have tried the route of just asking questions.  Actually, I would probably offer solutions in those cases but never get that far.  I would be just trying to understand what is agitating her.  It could start simply like:

Her:  The dishwasher is not working.

Me:  How is it not working right?  Note:  I have to ask because I heard it running but may have missed something.

Her:  It is just not working!  Why do you need to (second guess me, challenge me, etc.)?  Why can you just not accept what I am telling you?

Me (in my head):  Oh, goody!  I stepped into that bear trap.  Should I chew off my leg to make my escape? 

I have tried variations of how to phrase it too with similar "success".  I will say that this is only if her mood is like that.  Other times, she is quite rational and will tell/show me the problem.  Of course, to make sure that I lose anyway, she will say at some random time down the road that she told me about the problem, but I dismissed it.

Ironically, she got on my case weeks ago for not being careful with my choice of words like I normally am.  My "carelessness" created a nice argument from her.

These days, I am not trying to watch my words nearly as much with her.  I believe the weariness of walking on eggshells all these years have taken its toll.  I no longer have the energy to tread so lightly around her.

[thereishope]

When you take valid steps to resolve or even resolve their "problem" they often want to keep fighting about it. How does that even make sense?. It doesn't.

To be confronted with "you are not willing to change" right at the time you are expressing these very changes to meet HER needs?. That is mental illness.

Soo invalidating to be pouring your heart out... .willing to change/be/do just about anything with absolute authentic desire and 110% purpose... .and to be told... ."that's BULLSH... .T, you will NEVER change... .you WANT to be this way, and I'm gonna be STUCK with it forever... ."  ... .makes one want to rip their own eyeballs out of their head... .just saying... .:/

[coasterhusband]

Thanks, everyone. I really appreciate the perspectives.

[DreamFlyer99]

So frustrating, right? But the frustration lessens once you start seeing what's behind the incident in BPD.

I found the statements like "you will never change, you are unwilling to change" were more about what my husband was feeling or fearing in himself and not a true reflection of me. That's when I started learning not to take those things personally. If I took them personally then I felt attacked and reacted out of that, no help at all!

Often what sound like attacking phrases to us is projection on their part. The scariest bit was when we'd be riding along in the car and he'd be on some rant and i'd think, "boy, he's really hard to get along with" and then he'd turn to me and say "You are so hard to get along with!" I'd jump and think "did I say that out loud?" but no, he was actually feeling that about himself. So interesting!

Waverider said

Often they dont even know what the underlying issue is

It's like when we feel rattled about something and it affects everything, only BIGGER for someone with BPD. They already have self doubt written on their bones, so anything they might be having trouble with is magnified, and when something is magnified too much then it gets blurrier.

And Maxsterling said

90% of the time she is upset with something, it has nothing to do with you, despite her telling you that it has to do with you

So like I said before, try to take a deep breath and see that there's no need to take it personally.

It's so hard, I know, but does become easier with practice.

df

[formflier]

Her:  The dishwasher is not working.

Me:  How is it not working right?  Note:  I have to ask because I heard it running but may have missed something.

Her:  It is just not working!  Why do you need to (second guess me, challenge me, etc.)?  Why can you just not accept what I am telling you?

Me (in my head):  Oh, goody!  I stepped into that bear trap.  Should I chew off my leg to make my escape? 

I do this all the time!  This being fall into the tech trap.  I'm a pilot... .love dealing with mechanical tech things.  They break... .and if you can sort through what happened... .what button you pushed right before it went kablooey... .sometimes it's easier to fix.

Soo... .a million questions start coming out of my mouth and none of them are perceived as validating to her.

I haven't totally figured out the future on this one.  But... .most likely I am going to emotionally support her and allow her to deal with the repair man. 

I'm sure it will cost us some more money... .but most likely will keep the temp down in the r/s.

That way... .she can b___ and moan about the lousy repairman... .and I can hopefully stay out of the line of fire... .

[Zon]

Her:  The dishwasher is not working.

Me:  How is it not working right?  Note:  I have to ask because I heard it running but may have missed something.

Her:  It is just not working!  Why do you need to (second guess me, challenge me, etc.)?  Why can you just not accept what I am telling you?

Me (in my head):  Oh, goody!  I stepped into that bear trap.  Should I chew off my leg to make my escape? 

I do this all the time!  This being fall into the tech trap.  I'm a pilot... .love dealing with mechanical tech things.  They break... .and if you can sort through what happened... .what button you pushed right before it went kablooey... .sometimes it's easier to fix.

Soo... .a million questions start coming out of my mouth and none of them are perceived as validating to her.

I haven't totally figured out the future on this one.  But... .most likely I am going to emotionally support her and allow her to deal with the repair man. 

I'm sure it will cost us some more money... .but most likely will keep the temp down in the r/s.

That way... .she can b___ and moan about the lousy repairman... .and I can hopefully stay out of the line of fire... .

I fully understand your thinking as I am an engineer.  I want to track down the cause and avoid incorrect correlation.  Regarding the repair man, better him than me. 

More recently, I have been trying to not give into her issues.  My goal is to stand my ground for my own sanity.  A recent big fight over a minor thing (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=227341) really upset her, but I was happy later that I did not give in.  Since I acknowledged at the time that I had misunderstood the situation (admitted fault), I was not going to allow her to convince me that I was not listening to her words to cause the problem.  Rewriting history was just not going to happen.  When it was brought up in marriage counseling, she had to leave the room for awhile.  At the end of the session, the counselor looked concerned and made very sure there was another session this upcoming week.

[thereishope]

To be confronted with "you are not willing to change" right at the time you are expressing these very changes to meet HER needs?. That is mental illness.

Thank you for putting this into words. Definitely can relate.

[formflier]

Her:  The dishwasher is not working.

Me:  How is it not working right?  Note:  I have to ask because I heard it running but may have missed something.

Her:  It is just not working!  Why do you need to (second guess me, challenge me, etc.)?  Why can you just not accept what I am telling you?

Me (in my head):  Oh, goody!  I stepped into that bear trap.  Should I chew off my leg to make my escape? 

I do this all the time!  This being fall into the tech trap.  I'm a pilot... .love dealing with mechanical tech things.  They break... .and if you can sort through what happened... .what button you pushed right before it went kablooey... .sometimes it's easier to fix.

Soo... .a million questions start coming out of my mouth and none of them are perceived as validating to her.

I haven't totally figured out the future on this one.  But... .most likely I am going to emotionally support her and allow her to deal with the repair man. 

I'm sure it will cost us some more money... .but most likely will keep the temp down in the r/s.

That way... .she can b___ and moan about the lousy repairman... .and I can hopefully stay out of the line of fire... .

I fully understand your thinking as I am an engineer.  I want to track down the cause and avoid incorrect correlation.  Regarding the repair man, better him than me. 

More recently, I have been trying to not give into her issues.  My goal is to stand my ground for my own sanity.  A recent big fight over a minor thing (https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=227341) really upset her, but I was happy later that I did not give in.  Since I acknowledged at the time that I had misunderstood the situation (admitted fault), I was not going to allow her to convince me that I was not listening to her words to cause the problem.  Rewriting history was just not going to happen.  When it was brought up in marriage counseling, she had to leave the room for awhile.  At the end of the session, the counselor looked concerned and made very sure there was another session this upcoming week.

We should keep chatting about this.  Completely possible that you are me (not literally... but the way I behaved in counseling)... .about a year or two ago.

Also... being an engineer... .you live in a world of facts... .if you are in r/s with a pwBPD... .they live in a world of feelings... .their feelings.

They will twist the world to make things match up... .THEY DO NOT ALTER THEIR FEELINGS TO FIT THE WORLD!

Now... .not saying to agree that the laws of physics can be broken... .but I'm saying if you see your role as explaining to them that those laws can't be broken... .you are going to be in line of fire that you don't want to be in.  It ain't gonna work.  I used to think if I just explained it a little clearer... .

Anyway... .I'm going to go check out your other post.

And... .you are correct... .better the repairman get it... .than me!   

I laughed out loud when I saw that.

[waverider]

They will twist the world to make things match up... .THEY DO NOT ALTER THEIR FEELINGS TO FIT THE WORLD!

Thought I would just highlight this, as it is an important point and at the root cause of many of our communication issues.



As far as the washing machine example goes, inquiring about what it is about the washing machine thats not working is missing the point of what they are saying. They dont care that its not working per say. They are concerned that its not meeting their immediate needs.  If they didn't have an immediate need for it they would not care its not working.

They want you to say "I will fix it" (ie ensuring their needs are met). Talking about what is wrong with the washing machine is addressing the needs of the washing machine not her.

I had a similar issue with ours "Its not working we need a new one" It was just because she just dumped everything in their with no attention to stacking properly, so half of it didn't get washed. No amount of demonstrating made any difference. Her needs were not met, she wants someone to attend to did. Reasons are not her concern, and responsibility and effort to resolve are of no concern either

[pallavirajsinghani]

We are adults.  We listen to another person's "words".  Language is what we respond to.  Instead perhaps we should ONLY be listening to the emotion with which those words are spoken.

This is how I am handling my normal teenager's by the way.

So instead of listening to the words about lost papers and office space, just note that she is upset.  Why she is upset is none of your concern, unless and until it is an issue that is either self-destructive or destructive to someone else (for example, threat to harm self or someone else, threat to empty the bank account etc.).

After you have identified the emotion (Is she sad?  Is she worried?  Is she angry?), you only validate the emotion without offering the solutions.

Nor do you offer solutions.

Nor do you become defensive

Nor do you justify.

Nor do you apologise for things you have not done.

Any of the above means that their emotion has source outside of themselves and within you and because of their perception that they are angry/sad/worried/upset because of you, you are suddenly the bad person.  Afterall you are responsible for their happiness in their minds and if they are not happy, you have fallen short of your promise and therefore you are a bad person, an inadequate person.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Having said that, what is the best way to handle such emotional outbursts?  Only listen to the emotion of the words and then before more than a few sentences are spoken, say,  "I am sorry to see that you are upset... .well, think of a solution and let me know how I can be of help."  :)o not offer to help.  Wait till you are asked.  If you hear the accusation, "You never help me!"  Just say sweetly, "I am here for you.  Whenever you need me, just say so."

"You have a better office than I do."

"True.  I do.  What is your suggestion?"

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My 14 year constantly seeks attention to alleviate her minor anxieties or out of lonliness or just usual insecurities of being at that age.  So she continues to announce things like:,  "My arm hurts".  "My nose itches".  "I am cold." ... .so, what do I see in reality?  No injury on arm, no activity indulged in that would lead to a hurt... .

In the beginning I used to respond with solutions.  Are you cold?  go wear socks, take off shorts and wear pants, wear a sweater.  Well, she would say no to all these commonsense solutions.  Then I learnt slowly that this is not the real issue at all.  She is perfectly intelligent enough to know that one can get warm with socks, long pants and a sweater.  What she is coming to me for is a hug and maternal soothing.  So now, that's what I give her... .and that is THE ONLY THING I GIVE HER.  My husband instead, gives solutions, even makes those solutions possible (brings her the blanket/sweater etc.)... .and she gets more upset... tantrum ensues.  He cannot understand what just happened.  I do.  With less work and more understanding, I am able to defuse the simmering negativity in her totally... .we even begin to laugh.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am just giving an example.  Afterall, you are dealing with an individual who is not emotionally an adult.  So, deal with an emotion emotionally, not rationally.

You cannot defuse emotion with reason.  You can only defuse it with rational use of emotional tools.  Hope it makes sense.

[waverider]

Makes perfect sense and helps explain why the object of complaint changes even though the emotion is still there. eg I am hurt>>Its cold, my arm hurts, I dont like XYZ.

These complaints can shift because in reality they are not important, just different attempts to convey they same emotion. It is their way of re explaining in different words how they feel, almost like alternative analogies.

[formflier]

I had a similar issue with ours "Its not working we need a new one" It was just because she just dumped everything in their with no attention to stacking properly, so half of it didn't get washed. No amount of demonstrating made any difference. Her needs were not met, she wants someone to attend to did. Reasons are not her concern, and responsibility and effort to resolve are of no concern either

So... how did you or she "Solve" the issue above.

My hope would be for me... .if in a similar situation... that I could leave it up to her to figure out and solve... .because if I got involved and didn't do it quick enough... .or if it didn't work... then I'm the failure.

Very curious in the resolution of your washing issue! 

[waverider]

Ignored it, its a mind set I can't change it and in itself its not a big issue. It is what it is.

Little scenarios like this are repeated constantly. Its not about the issue its simply her been frustrated at not getting immediate needs met. In this case she wants the dishes clean but cant be bothered working out how to do it properly herself.

I just shrug and move on, it stops it heading off into sideshow conflict, which is what the old me used to do. She's not that fussed about having the dishes clean either, that was just another avenue to let some other unknown source of frustration out, so its soon forgotten.

[formflier]

Ignored it, its a mind set I can't change it and in itself its not a big issue. It is what it is.

Little scenarios like this are repeated constantly. Its not about the issue its simply her been frustrated at not getting immediate needs met. In this case she wants the dishes clean but cant be bothered working out how to do it properly herself.

I just shrug and move on, it stops it heading off into sideshow conflict, which is what the old me used to do. She's not that fussed about having the dishes clean either, that was just another avenue to let some other unknown source of frustration out, so its soon forgotten.

And then you are obviously fine with the dirty dishes and ignoring those until she gets around to it.

[waverider]

Ignored it, its a mind set I can't change it and in itself its not a big issue. It is what it is.

Little scenarios like this are repeated constantly. Its not about the issue its simply her been frustrated at not getting immediate needs met. In this case she wants the dishes clean but cant be bothered working out how to do it properly herself.

I just shrug and move on, it stops it heading off into sideshow conflict, which is what the old me used to do. She's not that fussed about having the dishes clean either, that was just another avenue to let some other unknown source of frustration out, so its soon forgotten.

And then you are obviously fine with the dirty dishes and ignoring those until she gets around to it.

Its normally a chore I do anyway in my own time. Her housekeeping ability all round is pretty bad, always has been, and unless i want to live in a complete slum housekeeping is not a battle I am likely to win for the effort involved. We fought over petty household chores for years and got nowhere.

Cant make a silk purse out of a cows ear. Its one of those 3rd tier acceptance issues I mentioned

[formflier]

 

Its normally a chore I do anyway in my own time. Her housekeeping ability all round is pretty bad, always has been, and unless i want to live in a complete slum housekeeping is not a battle I am likely to win for the effort involved. We fought over petty household chores for years and got nowhere.

Cant make a silk purse out of a cows ear. Its one of those 3rd tier acceptance issues I mentioned

Got it.  I'm seeing very similar problem solving coming about on my end.  Where I have to choose to handle it myself... .without complaint... .or just let it be and she deal with it... .or not.

As I continue to see and feel the benefits of conflict reduction... .I'm find with letting some things be.

[DreamFlyer99]

And it's GOOD for boys to know how to do dishes... .at least that's what I've been telling my son for years!

[waverider]

And it's GOOD for boys to know how to do dishes... .at least that's what I've been telling my son for years!

yeah, open the door, put them in, shut door, press button doesn't even need bad language...

Now fixing a car, that calls for lots of bad language and hissy fits 

[DreamFlyer99]

[thereishope]

We are adults.  We listen to another person's "words".  Language is what we respond to.  Instead perhaps we should ONLY be listening to the emotion with which those words are spoken.

This is how I am handling my normal teenager's by the way.

So instead of listening to the words about lost papers and office space, just note that she is upset.  Why she is upset is none of your concern, unless and until it is an issue that is either self-destructive or destructive to someone else (for example, threat to harm self or someone else, threat to empty the bank account etc.).

After you have identified the emotion (Is she sad?  Is she worried?  Is she angry?), you only validate the emotion without offering the solutions.

Nor do you offer solutions.

Nor do you become defensive

Nor do you justify.

Nor do you apologise for things you have not done.

Any of the above means that their emotion has source outside of themselves and within you and because of their perception that they are angry/sad/worried/upset because of you, you are suddenly the bad person.  Afterall you are responsible for their happiness in their minds and if they are not happy, you have fallen short of your promise and therefore you are a bad person, an inadequate person.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Having said that, what is the best way to handle such emotional outbursts?  Only listen to the emotion of the words and then before more than a few sentences are spoken, say,  "I am sorry to see that you are upset... .well, think of a solution and let me know how I can be of help."  :)o not offer to help.  Wait till you are asked.  If you hear the accusation, "You never help me!"  Just say sweetly, "I am here for you.  Whenever you need me, just say so."

"You have a better office than I do."

"True.  I do.  What is your suggestion?"

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

My 14 year constantly seeks attention to alleviate her minor anxieties or out of lonliness or just usual insecurities of being at that age.  So she continues to announce things like:,  "My arm hurts".  "My nose itches".  "I am cold." ... .so, what do I see in reality?  No injury on arm, no activity indulged in that would lead to a hurt... .

In the beginning I used to respond with solutions.  Are you cold?  go wear socks, take off shorts and wear pants, wear a sweater.  Well, she would say no to all these commonsense solutions.  Then I learnt slowly that this is not the real issue at all.  She is perfectly intelligent enough to know that one can get warm with socks, long pants and a sweater.  What she is coming to me for is a hug and maternal soothing.  So now, that's what I give her... .and that is THE ONLY THING I GIVE HER.  My husband instead, gives solutions, even makes those solutions possible (brings her the blanket/sweater etc.)... .and she gets more upset... tantrum ensues.  He cannot understand what just happened.  I do.  With less work and more understanding, I am able to defuse the simmering negativity in her totally... .we even begin to laugh.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am just giving an example.  Afterall, you are dealing with an individual who is not emotionally an adult.  So, deal with an emotion emotionally, not rationally.

You cannot defuse emotion with reason.  You can only defuse it with rational use of emotional tools.  Hope it makes sense.

I think this is brilliant. I am definitely going to use it.  THANK YOU FOR SHARING! 

[thereishope]

Ignored it, its a mind set I can't change it and in itself its not a big issue. It is what it is.

Little scenarios like this are repeated constantly. Its not about the issue its simply her been frustrated at not getting immediate needs met. In this case she wants the dishes clean but cant be bothered working out how to do it properly herself.

I just shrug and move on, it stops it heading off into sideshow conflict, which is what the old me used to do. She's not that fussed about having the dishes clean either, that was just another avenue to let some other unknown source of frustration out, so its soon forgotten.

I have been dealing with things this way too.