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Author Topic: Validating? I don't want to  (Read 466 times)
joshbjoshb
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« on: July 15, 2014, 09:46:40 AM »

It seems that although I spent a long time reading about the need in validating, I don't want to do it.

Why? Few possible reasons.

I am lazy.

I feel that validating will make her argument right, and they are so wrong.

I tried it. I guess I expected her to really open up and be honest about her situation, possibly leading to her going to see a therapist, but all it did was only to defuse the tension and nothing more.

Yes, I know it's also a good thing. Today, I try to defuse the tension by boundaries only.

If she yells - "I don't like how you talk to me. Please don't yell."

If she accuses "It's not true." Or "I never did that" or "if you insist that this is what happened you can continue to insist. I don't think it's true."

To a degree, I feel like wanting her to own up. I feel that validating is enabling (is it possible that some BPD will take anything as enabling?) and I don't want to do that. What's wrong is wrong is wrong.

Another example. I don't know if this is a major BPD trait, but she always judges everyone. No one is good. Everyone is bad. Not only in regard to her ("she is not nice to me" etc.) but it's almost a mix of jealousy and judgmental outlook. Rarely if ever will she compliment anyone or any venue she participated in etc.

[BTW, is this common?]

But then, she will do the exact same things that she accused others of doing. When she criticize others for things she will do herself I just can't stand it and don't want to validate it.

So, what do you guys think?   
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Triptoes
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« Reply #1 on: July 15, 2014, 11:15:18 AM »

I think humans in general, not just BPDs, are ofter quick to judge in others those things we cannot accept in ourselves. So your partner judging others about things she does herself is not abnormal — I think people who are prone to black and white thinking and having very strong judgements about others just tend to do this a lot. My spouse does this too.

The way I like to look at it, is by trying to see that he is mad about those things because of his own insecurities and shortcomings. I try to empathize through compassion, not by agreeing what he is saying about someone is true in my opinion.

Validating is very difficult in the beginning. I think the hardest part about it is that you can't fake it. Or at least I can't. It seems you are trying to validate your spouse but only really in order for her to own up to her problems and start changing. Sadly, this will not work. The hardest thing for me is to accept, and to keep maintaining that acceptance, that my partners words, feelings or actions are not at all my responsibility. They are out of my control. I can only control myself and what I do, and so I have to keep reminding myself that trying to "make him see" something or "get him to understand" will not work at all. Validating him can then become a tool that helps both him and me: helps him to feel heard, and helps me to see that I can hear him out without agreeing with the irrationalities.

I can only choose what I do, how I speak to him, how I allow him to speak to me, what I can do in order for us to have a calm, loving relationship. A person has to do that in any relationship, but it is many more times harder with a BPD person I believe. Because they will not step up to the plate and accept blame very often. They will not defuse an argument and go: "You know what, I am acting irrationally, I am sorry, let's start over." They are insecure and afraid of losing us so badly that they will attack us at any sign they think they are seeing of us not being loving, not being loyal, not being there for them in each and every moment.

This is very, very hard. Probably everyone on this forum agrees.

Boundaries are important, but at least in my relationship, it has seemed like it is useless for me to put up strong boundaries without sincere validation. Strong boundaries without validation will only be seen as threatening by my spouse, so I only do that when I really need to (if I feel like I am actually being emotionally abused or feel threatened by him). Often I don't even have to enforce my boundaries if I manage to sincerely validate his feelings and express my own in a non-threatening way.

Hope some of this makes sense to you?
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maxsterling
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« Reply #2 on: July 15, 2014, 11:56:42 AM »

It seems that although I spent a long time reading about the need in validating, I don't want to do it.  

Well, none of us do at first.  It's extra effort.  We feel like we are validating the absurd.  We feel like we are training ourselves to be customer service reps instead of honest partners (I'm so sorry sir for your problem).  It seems CONSTANT and RELENTLESS.  

I feel that validating will make her argument right, and they are so wrong.

That's a tricky one.  This is where you need to make sure you validate the underlying emotion rather than their thoughts or reactions about the emotion.  The pwBPD may be really angry and upset over something that you may think is no big deal.  Validate that they are upset, but make sure you aren't validating their reaction to the emotion.  "Yeah, crowded stores are really aggravating sometimes.  I do xyz to keep myself from getting too upset, or try to go when it is less crowded."  But I won't validate that it was okay for her to scream and curse at a woman in the parking lot who took her parking space. [/quote]
I tried it. I guess I expected her to really open up and be honest about her situation, possibly leading to her going to see a therapist, but all it did was only to defuse the tension and nothing more.

Defusing the tension is the goal of validation, to calm their racing emotions and keep mild irritation and anger from becoming outright violent rage.  Getting them to open up, be honest, or seek therapy is a completely separate issue that is beyond your control.  Sometimes after I validate and her emotions calm, I can ask follow up questions regarding the triggering incident, and she will open up and humble herself.  The frustrating thing for me is that it always happens again in short time.  

To a degree, I feel like wanting her to own up. I feel that validating is enabling (is it possible that some BPD will take anything as enabling?) and I don't want to do that. What's wrong is wrong is wrong.

I hear ya on this one.  What's wrong is wrong.  Screaming and cursing at someone is wrong. Lying is wrong.  And I think the pwBPD know this deep inside.  But if you are needing someone else to own up, BPD or not, it's an unhealthy relationship, because your happiness is dependent on their apology.  pwBPD, in my experience, almost NEVER own up.  There is always someone else to blame, at least in part, or some excuse.  You really have to accept this is the way they are and have strength and thick skin to be in a r/s with a pwBPD.  

Another example. I don't know if this is a major BPD trait, but she always judges everyone. No one is good. Everyone is bad. Not only in regard to her ("she is not nice to me" etc.) but it's almost a mix of jealousy and judgmental outlook. Rarely if ever will she compliment anyone or any venue she participated in etc.

 

Yes, this is a major BPD trait.  "Mix of jealousy and judgment al outlook" - EXACTLY.  This relates to black and white thinking and internal shame.  My dBPD fiancé doesn't like people who are happy or have their lives together.  She's jealous of them, but also points out to her how crappy her life is, or how she screwed up her own life.  

But then, she will do the exact same things that she accused others of doing. When she criticize others for things she will do herself I just can't stand it and don't want to validate it.

This is pure projection by her, projecting her emotions onto others.  Another common BPD trait that again deals with black/white thinking and internal shame.  :)on't validate her criticisms of others, but validate her emotion of being frustrated with others.  Somehow, deep down I think she knows she is doing the same thing others do, and that is why what others do bothers her so much, because it makes her feel bad about herself.  That's what I notice about my fiancé, at least.  What seems to trigger her most are the things that others do that she does herself.  
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LilHurt420
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« Reply #3 on: July 15, 2014, 12:35:12 PM »

I have a problem with validating also.  I hate doing it because it seems to make my uBPDh think he's always right when he's always wrong.  It's humiliating to validate his outrageous "feelings"

I've learned to stay quiet when he goes on his rants now.  Staying quiet is hard for me, but seems to be the way to defuse things.
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JohnLove
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« Reply #4 on: July 16, 2014, 08:37:54 PM »

I have a problem with validating also.  I hate doing it because it seems to make my uBPDh think he's always right when he's always wrong.  It's humiliating to validate his outrageous "feelings"

I've learned to stay quiet when he goes on his rants now.  Staying quiet is hard for me, but seems to be the way to defuse things.

I hear you LilHurt420. I struggle with accessing the "underlying feelings" buried beneath all the BS.

That's not validation. That's time out... .but sometimes that in itself is validating.
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joshbjoshb
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« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2014, 12:54:27 PM »

I want to thank you guys for hitting me hard Smiling (click to insert in post) and reminding me more about why it's important. I do understand that the point is validation is to get the situation under control, but I am asking: wouldn't the same end result happen when you simply enforce a very real boundary?

For example:

Wife comes home, upset about something, blaming me for all that is wrong in her life. I say calmly that I don't like to be spoken to this way, and that it's not true that I am the source of her problems. I don't blame her as much as stating clearly that your accusations are not true.

She repeat, I repeat until she sees that her efforts in making me upset don't work, she gives up.

What's wrong with that picture? And wouldn't such a reaction make sure that she won't do it again?

In other words, if she is like a child, and with my 3 years old I would take no tantrum as a way of communication, why wouldn't I apply it here as well?
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123Phoebe
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« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2014, 01:24:11 PM »

I do understand that the point is validation is to get the situation under control, but I am asking: wouldn't the same end result happen when you simply enforce a very real boundary?

For example:

Wife comes home, upset about something, blaming me for all that is wrong in her life. I say calmly that I don't like to be spoken to this way, and that it's not true that I am the source of her problems. I don't blame her as much as stating clearly that your accusations are not true.



She repeat, I repeat until she sees that her efforts in making me upset don't work, she gives up.

What's wrong with that picture? And wouldn't such a reaction make sure that she won't do it again?

In other words, if she is like a child, and with my 3 years old I would take no tantrum as a way of communication, why wouldn't I apply it here as well?

This could be expanded upon to add, "Wow, I can see that you're really upset... Did something happen at work (or wherever, whatever)?"

Wife- "You you you you you, blame!"

"Okay, I don't like being spoken to this way.  I am all ears if we can direct this away from blaming me.  What's going on?"

Wife- "Blah you!"

Boundary!  Smiling (click to insert in post)

"I really do care, Sweetie.  I won't be the brunt of the blame here though.  Can't picture solving anything when we're both upset, so I'm going for a walk (out to the garage, somewhere... ); I'll be back in half an hour."

Or something to that effect.  Avoid making things worse by removing yourself from the line of fire.

As far as making sure she won't do something again... .  You won't be affected if you're not there to listen to it.  She will do what she will do, or she might change when she's not getting the extra adrenaline rush.

We eventually find a new functional normal.



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joshbjoshb
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« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2014, 01:41:35 PM »

Yeah, that makes total sense, and this is what I try to do - i.e. not come across as cold and not caring, but to acknowledge that she is hurt or sad... .but did I validate? I don't think so. 
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joshbjoshb
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« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2014, 01:43:12 PM »

Maybe the underling issue that I have is that validating, even without validating the invalid, will still cause her to do it constantly while setting a boundary means that after few times she will learn that this is not how you speak to me, period. So she will have to start talking in a proper way.
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123Phoebe
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« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2014, 01:45:05 PM »

Yeah, that makes total sense, and this is what I try to do - i.e. not come across as cold and not caring, but to acknowledge that she is hurt or sad... .but did I validate? I don't think so.  

Um, what do you mean?

We don't want to validate the invalid either.  So... . 

Maybe the underling issue that I have is that validating, even without validating the invalid, will still cause her to do it constantly while setting a boundary means that after few times she will learn that this is not how you speak to me, period. So she will have to start talking in a proper way.

A little validation goes a long way.  If it's an issue that keeps coming up, then definitely have a boundary about it.

It's not so much about teaching her a lesson, more about what you will allow yourself to be subjected to.

I've tried staying far away from playing therapist or parent with him.  There's just something really unromantic about it or something.  Feelings are intimate.

Noticing that she's upset, while not accepting the blame shows strength.  It's good for the relationship, it nourishes it.
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joshbjoshb
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« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2014, 02:53:25 PM »

What you said "it's not about teaching her a lesson it's about what you let yourself be subjected to" was really an eye-opening. My therapist told me the same thing but I never really figured it out. It was when I asked him what is not acceptable and he said "it depends what you decide is not acceptable".

So if I decide that I want to be spoken to with respect, and I won't allow someone talking to me with disrespect, is that okay? Because I won't validate anything that comes as disrespect to me, rather just acknowledge.
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123Phoebe
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« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2014, 03:40:33 PM »

So if I decide that I want to be spoken to with respect, and I won't allow someone talking to me with disrespect, is that okay? Because I won't validate anything that comes as disrespect to me, rather just acknowledge.

Yea, that's more than okay, it also keeps the relationship respectful.  Just have to be careful to not be controlling about it.  It's letting her know where your boundary-line is.  The first couple of times can be a little hairy and awkward.  It would frustrate me to no end having to let him know that certain things were not okay with me.  I just figured he "should" know that already.  Now if he gets a little pesky I shoot him a look, the look of "Hmmf" Laugh out loud (click to insert in post)

You're taking a little time to understand where she's coming from (validation).  If she doesn't respect that, then hmmf, ya know?
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« Reply #12 on: July 26, 2014, 04:05:44 PM »

Validation makes things a lot clearer especially who feels what. This is important for your own well being. Let me explain.

The way BPD affects us nons is through invalidation. Once the honeymoon phase is over and some negative emotions show up the way a pwBPD can force validation is by invalidating us. When we are invalidated we tend to invalidate back and boom the unrelated negative emotions have a concrete manufactured cause - us.

The invalidation of us happens often through projected emotions. Validation stops this game playing by clarifying what emotions are in play. Voicing emotions on the other side and at times sharing own emotions/self validation through SET (T=own emotions) stops the vicious invalidation->invalidation circle.

There are a lot of toxic emotions thrown at us. We can stonewall and they are dumped right at our border. We can throw mud back and escalate the conflict. Or we can package the stuff and ship it nicely back. Return to sender - deal with it yourself.
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joshbjoshb
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« Reply #13 on: August 06, 2014, 08:27:01 PM »

Let's take an example and see what you say can be applied.

My wife today yelled at me during dinner not to talk on the phone. It's prob. the first time in over a year that I picked up the phone during dinner. She said it was "rude of me" and "why do you have to talk now you can call him later." It wasn't that important but I didn't want to finish it right there and then, so I told her "I believe it's perfectly okay to be on the phone during dinner once a year."

Later she started lecturing me again why it's not good to be on the phone, and I simply said again that it was a one time thing, and I don't appreciate her comments. If it would be a recurring thing is one thing, but for one time a year I am not interested in comments.

Now, I know I could have handled it way better. I simply wasn't not in the mood of more criticism since this is what I eat for breakfast lunch and dinner. I was a bit fed up so this is why I reacted this way.

Was I wrong? I clearly could have validated "I see you are upset I am on the phone" or "you feel that I don't pay attention to you while being on the phone", but honestly I was much more in the mood of setting a boundry. Heck, I think I didn't do anything wrong, if you do go knock yourself out.

I spent some time thinking of this thread, and came to a conclusion that perhaps my biggest issue is that I don't want to be her emotional caretaker. It's taxing. I want the ability to be angry at times, she doesn't need to provide support but I can't continue to be this people pleaser that I was, and constantly be the nice guy that comforts his wife... .she needs help, and I can be part of the solution - not the main part of it.
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