Let's practice Radical Acceptance together?

[ziniztar]

As I know many of us struggle with the issue of radical acceptance, and I'm on the verge of diving into the topic, I decided to share my journey with you. I hope other will join in practicing radical acceptance as it does not come very natural to us.

In Tools: Radical Acceptance it states:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=89910.0

When faced with a painful situation, you really have only 4 options:

1 Solve the problem.

2 Change how you feel about the problem.

3 Accept it.

4 Stay miserable; continue to be a victim.

I've had numerous fights the last weeks with my dBPDbf, and a big allmost breakup talk yesterday. He's in therapy and becoming aware of the inequality of our relationship and feeling miserable for it. He wishes someone else for me (I hate it when guys do that). He mentioned: "I think we're destroying each other by staying together."

And he's right. It's been ugly. In the first few months of a relationship you're fine with whatever the other does. Everything is fantastic. Then you start to see the parts you don't like and accept them for what they are. But in a BPD relationship, things won't get normal. Accepting takes a lot more work. I've noticed I've been consumed in option number 1, 2 and 4. I started out with 1 and 2, but if the problem wasn't fixed or he kept poking long enough and I couldn't keep my altered view of the problem, I would switch to 4 again.  

What about you? What is your reaction to painful events? 1, 2, 3 or 4?

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[123Phoebe]

When faced with a painful situation, you really have only 4 options:

1 Solve the problem.

2 Change how you feel about the problem.

3 Accept it.

4 Stay miserable; continue to be a victim.


What is your reaction to painful events? 1, 2, 3 or 4?

This is good, ziniztar

I use all of the above when faced with a   (what the ... .?) event.  This is basically how it goes for me:

Starts out with #4 -  I am thrown for a loop.  Something just came out of left field that I wasn't expecting.  It is when I do my best venting with a friend who experiences similar.  I get validation that what has happened is whack.  It is very short term.  My own mini-AAAARGH!

2- Change how you feel about the problem. 

If it's not a deal-breaker then I have options.  I can do a, b, c, d etc... .  Respond according to my values.  Don't sugarcoat, nor pile on.  If it makes him feel uncomfortable, so be it.

3-  Solve problem

The problem gets solved by living my values.  He has the freedom and the right to live his life however he chooses to live it.  Same here   We're equals.

4- Acceptance

He is who he is and does what he does.  Trust myself that I will act in my own best interest, with respect for him and the relationship.

 

[Triptoes]

Great topic! And something I really need to work on right now. Let's see.

When faced with a painful situation, you really have only 4 options:

1 Solve the problem.

2 Change how you feel about the problem.

3 Accept it.

4 Stay miserable; continue to be a victim.

What is your reaction to painful events? 1, 2, 3 or 4?

My default option is none of the above, but option number 5 - try to sweep the problem under the rug and throw yourself down to keep it there for good or my version of option number 4 - which for me entails some heavy, heavy defensiveness and side-stepping in (futile) hopes that someone or something else will fix the problem.

Needless to say, these strategies don't really work for me all that well.

When I deal with things succesfully, first step is what is stated here as number 3 - acceptance. Accepting that there is a problem, that it exists and I need to address it in some way or form. Sometimes this is obvious, but with some things I still need to make this a more concious effort - to be fully aware of my feelings and when something is happening that is not in line with my values. Only then I can move on.

I guess after that to me comes number 2 - changing the way I view the problem: from impossible to managable. From "I can't deal with this!" to "okay, let's see what I/we can do now". In the case of our relationship problems, from "he is doing/talking/acting all wrong!" to "we are two uniquely different people with different ideas, feelings and expectations - I need to communicate mine and listen to his". And in terms of general life-direction issues, from "I am doomed" to "I write my own story, I will choose which path I want to choose".

And after that there is time for trying to find a solution. Maybe we find one, maybe we don't. Maybe choosing the right thing will be difficult. Maybe the solution is a compromise that annoys the hell out of me. Maybe the solution will be just to accept my partner as he is. Maybe the solution is to focus on what I need. Maybe through calm discussion we find middle ground and can genuinly both be satisfied with the result. Maybe - and this is also an important option! - I feel too unsure to choose between two difficult options, so I choose to live with the discomfort longer, until I know for sure.

Working on this process every day lately. Sometimes doing better, sometimes worse. But I'm proud of myself already for trying.

[Rapt Reader]

Good information, ziniztar  

Radical Acceptance is probably the very first thing I go to in my head when things get hurtful or confusing to me regarding my BPD loved ones. I try to click over to that tool when I feel myself getting confused, hurt or forlorn for the relationship, and remind myself that this is how my loved one feels and thinks. It is what it is. And that relationship is not going to be exactly what I'd always hoped it would--or this person's life will never be what I'd hoped it would. I can choose love, if I decide to work with them and see what I can do to keep the relationship healthy.

So, to that end, I guess my go-to strategy tends to be:

1. Solve the problem (for me, anyway, by taking my feelings out of it if possible)

2. Change how I feel about the problem.

3. Accept it. Radically.

And, yeah... .I've been where everyone else has been at one time or another (at Triptoes' option #5   ) when things seemed too huge to tackle (all that was prior to my finding this site and learning what I've learned here). I've also found, like 123Phoebe, that "the problem gets solved by living my values. He has the freedom and the right to live his life however he chooses to live it. Same here... .we're equals... ."

[waverider]

The thing I keep in mind is that these options are fluid. But you need to start with one of them or you just default to 4.

2 & 3 are often counterintuitive and not always easy to come at, and areas where it is all too easy to throw up you arms feeling like a failure or a fraud. To get past this you have to accept that these options are not natural, that you will fail and in fact will say and go through the motions before any of it becomes ingrained.

Choosing a path, no matter what it is, is important, as choice is empowering and default thinking is our undoing.

Good provoking thread Zinzitar

[Emelie Emelie]

I'm on the leaving board (sadly) but popped over here to see how you all are doing.  My only option is #3.  I can't solve the problem, I can't seem to change how I feel about it (heartbroken), but I refuse to stay miserable, become a victim.  (It's going to take me a long time to get past miserable however). 

[Panda39]

When faced with a painful situation, you really have only 4 options:

1 Solve the problem.

2 Change how you feel about the problem.

3 Accept it.

4 Stay miserable; continue to be a victim.

I think I pick different combinations of the 4 approaches above depending on the situation.  Something like an edict from on high at work that I don't like might be a simple 4 then 3.

Right now I am working on some issues regarding my SO's daughters I have done 4 then 3 then 4 again now I'm working on 1 but might have to go to 2 to be successful at 1 and if not successful with 1 I go back to 3... .I feel like I'm inventing some strange dance step!

[ziniztar]

Thanks for the thumbs up   I'm hoping it will insipire more of us to look at this tool. When I first got onto the site and read about it I found it a little vague, and kind of an open door. Now I'm a bit further down the path I see how me not accepting his behaviour is hindering progress for the both of us.

A few bits out of the replies that inspired me:

Trust myself that I will act in my own best interest, with respect for him and the relationship.

choice is empowering and default thinking is our undoing.

Triptoes, I have to commend you for your honesty and self-awareness. I chuckled a little bit when you described #5. What I do think is that acceptance always comes last. If you start with 1, 2 or 4, and the problem isn't solved, changing the way you feel about the problem doesn't help, or you feel yourself victimized... in the end the situation will only get better if you accept it. Kind of like Rapt Reader proposes.

EmelieEmelie, I'm sorry to read you left the staying board. Is it you who decided to leave? I think there is a distinct difference between feeling miserable and feeling & acting like a victim. I believe that people that take responsiblity for their own lives feel miserable but accept it is part of the path they have chosen themselves. It makes it easier to grieve if you're realizing that even though it feels bad now, you know it's the right choice and you are taking good care of yourself. I wish you all the best  .

I've decided to start practicing small. When I was trying to learn to say no (always saying yes got me into issues at work  ) I didn't practice on my boss immediately. I started saying no to people asking me in the streets to buy their news paper. I said it to people asking me for directions as I live in quite a touristy city. Even though I didn't know these people it was quite the excersize to overcome the guilt I already felt towards them. Slowly I started to bear the feeling and was able to say no to more important people where I felt I had something to lose. 2 years later it's not an issue anymore  .

So. This week, I'm practicing to radically accept any bumps I get into at work - even though there are big deadlines and it will be a stressed, messy time. What about you?

[itgirl]

RA for me this week is to accept that when my partner is going through a hard time (flu, PMS, depressed) she is constantly looking for things I do wrong. 

Like yesterday I trained the dogs for two hours.  I made so much progress that I took a little video to show her how the dogs behaved.  She spotted at the end of the video that the dogs leads were close to one another. Not commenting at all at their good behavior. 

I was a little hurt by it but then realized that she is not capable of giving me what I want at this time.  She is too empty and hurt inside.  That was more sad for me then me wanting a pat on the back.  I decided to show the video to my sister next time I see her and move on with the evening not being bothered.

Small acceptance but huge difference in the outcome of the evening.

I picked option 2 and 3 

[formflier]

 

We might also want to incorporate that being at #4 is ok "right now".

If we realize that this is an issue and it can't stay an issue long term.  This might be a situation where you haven't totally worked through values and boundaries... .and so for the time being you are going to let a situation continue with no attempt on your part to change it.

So there is education and thinking going on... .but no action that is perceivable by the pwBPD.

Is this a modification to 4... .or does it need to be a new number 4... .and 4 slides down to 5.


Thoughts?

Thanks for this ziniztar

This is a topic I have used some... .but need to work on more.  Especially the change my attitude about it...

Wouldn't it be easier if everyone else changed to suit me?    

[waverider]

Wouldn't it be easier if everyone else changed to suit me?    

Isn't there a name for people who think like that? 

[ziniztar]

RA for me this week is to accept that when my partner is going through a hard time (flu, PMS, depressed) she is constantly looking for things I do wrong.  

I can see why you would want to achieve this. But make sure you take little steps. It can also make you feel hopeless if you just simply can't. As waverider mentioned, part of the RA Is also that you accept that sometimes you can't RA.

Are there any other, smaller things you could practice on this week that are not related yo our SO?

I had a good excersize and experience work this week. I found out about some very unrealistic and unvoiced expectations my client. Usually this would cause me to get very frustrated and angry. I took a deep breath and realized they are only human and me getting angry does not help the situation in any kind of way. It actually helped me to perform better, professionally, and to solve the situation quicker.  

Just wanted to mention that I've had quite the   in my Dealing with loneliness thread on the Taking Personal Inventory board. I realized which part of my resentment that kept me away from RA is actually inflicted by myself and therefor under my own direct control to be changed. Perhaps an inspirational read for anyone who is open to take his own personal inventory... I feel very energized after having written that last post   .

[waverider]

RA for me this week is to accept that when my partner is going through a hard time (flu, PMS, depressed) she is constantly looking for things I do wrong.  

Make sure you dont confuse acceptance with understanding. You may understand this is what she is doing, but do you accept it and not let it bother you? That is the hard bit about acceptance, if it still bothers you then you have not yet reached acceptance.

This is why acceptance is more of an evolution than a simple choice. We often have to role play it before it really develops. Even then complete acceptance often evades us.

[ziniztar]

We might also want to incorporate that being at #4 is ok "right now".

If we realize that this is an issue and it can't stay an issue long term.  This might be a situation where you haven't totally worked through values and boundaries... .and so for the time being you are going to let a situation continue with no attempt on your part to change it.

So there is education and thinking going on... .but no action that is perceivable by the pwBPD.

Is this a modification to 4... .or does it need to be a new number 4... .and 4 slides down to 5.


Thoughts?

My thoughts are: I don't agree with you. Allowing for #4 to be OK will keep you in #4. I get that it will help you to not worsen the situation if you don't get mad at yourself for ending up in #4. I think there's a difference between feeling like a victim and acting like one. As long as you don't act like one, I'm ok with it . Luckily for you, you don't need my approval, you need your own  .

[formflier]

We might also want to incorporate that being at #4 is ok "right now".

If we realize that this is an issue and it can't stay an issue long term.  This might be a situation where you haven't totally worked through values and boundaries... .and so for the time being you are going to let a situation continue with no attempt on your part to change it.

So there is education and thinking going on... .but no action that is perceivable by the pwBPD.

Is this a modification to 4... .or does it need to be a new number 4... .and 4 slides down to 5.


Thoughts?

My thoughts are: I don't agree with you. Allowing for #4 to be OK will keep you in #4. I get that it will help you to not worsen the situation if you don't get mad at yourself for ending up in #4. I think there's a difference between feeling like a victim and acting like one. As long as you don't act like one, I'm ok with it . Luckily for you, you don't need my approval, you need your own  .

Interesting... .

So... .what is... .or how would you describe the category where you know you shouldn't be "there"... .but you haven't quite figured out a way... .or the proper way... .to get to one of the other options.

Might not be apples to apples... .but for a long time I knew that for lack of boundaries I was getting run over pretty hard.  I also... luckily... .figured out early on from education that making a move and backing down was worse than doing nothing at all. 

So... .there were several weeks... maybe longer where I consciously choose to let status quo stay... .because I knew I had things to figure out.

That is where I'm coming up with staying at #4 "right now". 

but I'm mixing radical acceptance and boundaries... .that could be confusing.

Thoughts?

[waverider]

I think what you are getting at there is putting things on the back burner whilst you asses what to do. That is not really 4 as you are no longer feeling victim, or being miserable. You are planning your future and feeling hopeful.

I took the approach you tackle everything at one and so applied a sliding scale to issues. Essential core issues got immediate boundaries and while i dealt with all the conflict that ensued due these changes, other things went on the back burner for now, and some where simply accepted as not that big a deal in the big picture.

You can't address everything as there are 1000s of little issues, many of which turn out to be symptoms traceable back to core issues.

Of course it is still a big task and it takes a lot of time and practice to get out of the "why me" poor victim mode.

[formflier]

I think what you are getting at there is putting things on the back burner whilst you asses what to do. That is not really 4 as you are no longer feeling victim, or being miserable. You are planning your future and feeling hopeful.

I took the approach you tackle everything at one and so applied a sliding scale to issues. Essential core issues got immediate boundaries and while i dealt with all the conflict that ensued due these changes, other things went on the back burner for now, and some where simply accepted as not that big a deal in the big picture.

You can't address everything as there are 1000s of little issues, many of which turn out to be symptoms traceable back to core issues.

Of course it is still a big task and it takes a lot of time and practice to get out of the "why me" poor victim mode.

Yep... I'll  go along with that.

When you say core issues... .is that the core issue for you... .the person that wants to do the boundary... .or the "root" of the problem?

[waverider]

When you say core issues... .is that the core issue for you... .the person that wants to do the boundary... .or the "root" of the problem?

Whatever makes you feel sick inside, rather than plain injustice or frustration. This would cover the major biggies such as abuse, serious disrespect and other such malicious behavior.

[formflier]

When you say core issues... .is that the core issue for you... .the person that wants to do the boundary... .or the "root" of the problem?

Whatever makes you feel sick inside, rather than plain injustice or frustration. This would cover the major biggies such as abuse, serious disrespect and other such malicious behavior.

So... .for me... .being informed of a decision with my kids versus discussing an issue and coming up with a joint decision is a "core issue". 

Before when I was informed... .I felt I had no real power... .because it put me in the position of trying to argue her out of her position... .

Does this sound like a core issue to you... .or is that a process issue. 

And in that case maybe the core issue is respect for me as a father.

Thoughts?

[waverider]

When you say core issues... .is that the core issue for you... .the person that wants to do the boundary... .or the "root" of the problem?

Whatever makes you feel sick inside, rather than plain injustice or frustration. This would cover the major biggies such as abuse, serious disrespect and other such malicious behavior.

So... .for me... .being informed of a decision with my kids versus discussing an issue and coming up with a joint decision is a "core issue". 

Before when I was informed... .I felt I had no real power... .because it put me in the position of trying to argue her out of her position... .

Does this sound like a core issue to you... .or is that a process issue. 

And in that case maybe the core issue is respect for me as a father.

Thoughts?

If it really eats you up inside it is. It is not always about what would normally be regarded as fair or justifiable. The idea is to stop you getting wound up. So we address those triggers first.

We are far more affective in dealing with all this if we can be objective in our thinking, that is always tainted if we are wound up like a spring ready to snap back

I used to get in this state when she used projection on my kids who were just going about their business and found themselves suddenly the subject of blaming and finger pointing as a result of her having issues about something. Before I discovered BPD I had no idea how to combat this. That was a core issue for me, as it was bringing out aggressove protection instincts (totally ineffectively)

[formflier]

When you say core issues... .is that the core issue for you... .the person that wants to do the boundary... .or the "root" of the problem?

Whatever makes you feel sick inside, rather than plain injustice or frustration. This would cover the major biggies such as abuse, serious disrespect and other such malicious behavior.

So... .for me... .being informed of a decision with my kids versus discussing an issue and coming up with a joint decision is a "core issue". 

Before when I was informed... .I felt I had no real power... .because it put me in the position of trying to argue her out of her position... .

Does this sound like a core issue to you... .or is that a process issue. 

And in that case maybe the core issue is respect for me as a father.

Thoughts?

If it really eats you up inside it is. It is not always about what would normally be regarded as fair or justifiable. The idea is to stop you getting wound up. So we address those triggers first.

We are far more affective in dealing with all this if we can be objective in our thinking, that is always tainted if we are wound up like a spring ready to snap back

I used to get in this state when she used projection on my kids who were just going about their business and found themselves suddenly the subject of blaming and finger pointing as a result of her having issues about something. Before I discovered BPD I had no idea how to combat this. That was a core issue for me, as it was bringing out aggressove protection instincts (totally ineffectively)

Yep... .then it is a core issue for me. 

When she changed this behavior... .it meant the world to me.

There is still a little nuance I would like to change... .so that if she gets asked can we do something by kids... .her response is that she will discuss it with me and then we issue a decision. 

There is still some... "it's ok with me... but lets check with Dad" going on."  That  still leaves me the odd man out... .having to argue a decision away.

I'd say we are about 90% there on this issue

[ziniztar]

I'd say we are about 90% there on this issue

Then I guess that other 10% are RA, for the time being?

I'm happy to read you've already accomplished so much together  .

I have a different question. I know my dBPDbf is getting treatement and his top scroring schema is that of 'detached selfcarer' which sounds really good but in real life means he's allowing himself things a healthy grown up wouldn't allow himself. Too much alcohol, too much work, too much distractions and ways to soothe himself that are conflicting other goals (e.g. a stable relationship, studying for a test he needs to get a promotion at work). It makes him very selfish, overly (dangerously) positive, out of sync with his own feelings and detached when with others. It is what drives me nuts as my need to feel connected is not fullfilled even though he pretends to be there. 'Together but alone' would be a good description.

Either way. I know he knows this about himself, he's even actively using it as an explanation (I hope not excuse) for his behaviour. I know he is working on this. It is one of the things that hurts me the most and what I would not want to tolerate in a future relationship. Then here is the main question: when do you radically accept, and when do you provide intermittent reinforcement? If I accept certain behaviour now, knowing that he can't do any better now but hoping that he's changing it... will I not send mixed signals if I no longer wish to tolerate this in the future? It kinda feels like there is a (justified) expiration date on my acceptance.

In the mean time, radical acceptance is what I'm practicing at home. I have a roommate that I am not all too happy about anymore (I notice I want to live by myself, or with my dBPDbf, but not with someone else) and whenever I feel frustrated about him I try to channel that into ... .well I guess a combination of changing how I feel about the problem and radical acceptance. I know I've chosen to be in this housing situation and that a few months ago this was the best option there was. I know this house gives me a lot of freedom (close to work = no traveling) and that any other option at the time would have been worse. I radically accept that this is my situation now and that his presence while I wanted to be alone is something I have to live with, at least until the end of our lease contract.

[waverider]

Intermittent reinforcement is when you concede on an issue after having previously made it a boundary. Then when you try to enforce it, or other boundaries in future they believe if they push hard enough you will cave, hence making it harder in future.

This is the main reason you have to absolutley sure of a boundary before you make it so that you dont do this.

Acceptance, particularly on a "for now" basis is simply a way of of avoiding constant battles on many fronts and getting nowhere with any. It is all a part of proceeding forward a bit at a time in realistic steps.

Often addressing more basic issues helps to ease the underlying cause of other flow on issues.

eg Once you can reduce unnecessary conflict somewhat you will lower natural defensiveness, which will include such things as projection and automatic denials.

Your own levels of acceptance ad tolerance will change throughout this process.

[ziniztar]

Yeah... ok. And calling once a day has nothing to do with a boundary. It is a desire but focused on each other, not myself. A boundary would be ... if he's not contacting me I will write in my diary, listen to my boundary playlist and do my toenails. My nails will be shiny as hell .

PS it really works, I have a playlist with only-me numbers that remind me of all other other relationships or crushes I've had and how I've overcome them. It's instant Perspective .

In this situation what I have to accept is that he has a coping style focused on not being alone = planning lots of activities + ADHD (despite his medicin) = chaos in our week schedules. His fear of engulfment and control won't allow him to set a fixed day in the week to see each other. If I can accept this for now, set a healthy boundary for myself in case of extreme weeks... we could make it.

Thanks.  

[formflier]

I have a different question. I know my dBPDbf is getting treatement and his top scroring schema is that of 'detached selfcarer' which sounds really good but in real life means he's allowing himself things a healthy grown up wouldn't allow himself. Too much alcohol, too much work, too much distractions and ways to soothe himself that are conflicting other goals (e.g. a stable relationship, studying for a test he needs to get a promotion at work).

Very interesting... .how did you come by this information?  Please give more details!

[ziniztar]

I have a different question. I know my dBPDbf is getting treatement and his top scroring schema is that of 'detached selfcarer' which sounds really good but in real life means he's allowing himself things a healthy grown up wouldn't allow himself. Too much alcohol, too much work, too much distractions and ways to soothe himself that are conflicting other goals (e.g. a stable relationship, studying for a test he needs to get a promotion at work).

Very interesting... .how did you come by this information?  Please give more details!

Hey formflier. Schema therapy is the standard approach to BPD here in my country and has been quite renowned I think for it's effects? You can find more info here: www.en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schema_Therapy

I was talking about the Detached Protector (under identified modes). The Impulsive child is big with my dBPDbf as well, his Angry one has toned down a lot lately. I haven't seen it for quite a while  . I know how he scores on them as I know him and recognize the behaviour, and also because I found his test results lingering around on his table a few weeks ago and I couldn't stop reading when I realized what it was.

He's working a lot these weeks and going to summer camps, gone for days in a row. When I was on the phone with him last week he said "Yeah ok I know that this is the Detached Protector mode full on but hey I can't change everything at once." A few months ago, when he was extremely upset because had had forgotten something (completely blown out of proportion), after 10 minutes of sadness, wining and a little bit of rage he said: "My T says I am in the Hurt, Abandoned Child mode and that I should think how my Healthy Adult would handle this."

Those are not TLC's, those are Huge Changes... .that's what keeps me going. He's fighting, so he deserves it for someone to stick around (as long as I can keep it together personally ).

Oh, and if anyhting... I get into an Abandoned Child mode as well. Guess that's room for therapy in the upcoming weeks.

[formflier]

 

Good stuff!  Thanks for the information.

And I'm very glad you both seem to be making some huge changes! 

[yeeter]

Great post.

For me, #2 and #3 are the same thing (because not accepting it is really #4).  And #4 isnt much of an option (at least not one that I would consciously choose)

So solve it.  Or change how I feel about it (acceptance is a part of this).  This is an especially good option when I dont CONTROL the outcome.  In fact, its the only option in this case.

Given there are many problems that cant be 'solved' (some can, but some cant), and even more that cant be solved by me alone (the only thing I do control), then by definition a lot of acceptance going on and I have to get good at it.

[formflier]

 

Yeah... .good day to be thinking about radical acceptance for me.

I'm still struggling with "being happy" about our new money situation.  I won't really know if I'm happy until taxes are filed this year.  If it actually gets done by my wife... .then things should look good for the long term.  If it doesn't... .then I am faced with having to "rescue" or "fix" a situation that she caused (took money and started making independent decisions).  I don't want to do that... .(the rescue)... .I think I'll let natural consequences play out.  

Or I can try to step in... .which causes conflict.  I'm really enjoying no conflict.  

So... in a situation where waiting is really the only viable pathway... .what do you do when you are having trouble with patience... .there is a good question... .!  

[ziniztar]

Given there are many problems that cant be 'solved' (some can, but some cant), and even more that cant be solved by me alone (the only thing I do control), then by definition a lot of acceptance going on and I have to get good at it.

Good one!  

then I am faced with having to "rescue" or "fix" a situation that she caused (took money and started making independent decisions).  I don't want to do that... .(the rescue)... .I think I'll let natural consequences play out.  

Acceptance doesn't mean you don't act! It means you accept the situation as it is, not fighting what you don't control.

Let's take an example. Fruzetti talks about a thermostat that is being changed in his video on validation.

Let's say that it's very cold in the house and you see that as a problem because you were born in Aruba and can't take any temperature below 25 degrees Celcius. The thermostat is broken and stuck at 17C!

You can then:

#1 Solve the problem: call a technician to fix the thermostat.

#2 Change how you feel about the problem: being cold really isn't the end of the world and I still have a house to live in. Puttings things in perspective.

#3 Accept it. Still see it as a very nasty thing (the cold), but accepting that you can't fix it and will be cold.

#4 Stay miserable: sit and pouch on the couch until someone else is going to fix the thermostat or offer you a sweater.

Perhaps it would be a good exercise. What kind of (simple, tangible) example problem could everyone personally think of and what would the four responses look like?

[ziniztar]

I think I have a new angle on this.

Radical acceptance has a lot to do with expectations. Right? Because acceptance is necessary there were expectations and reality do not match.

What I'm realizing is that my expectations of him are not always realistic either. In some way, I expect him to take care of me. I can be the adult and can be the one taking care of everything but I don't wanna. When I'm at his place after he's had a dreadfully busy week I resent him for not getting groceries, I resent him for overplanning his week and I resent him I have to be the adult. While, I could also get up, asses the situation, get him out of bed and get groceries together. Take the lead without resenting him for it. He does not have a responsibility to take care of me - I do!

If it were a week where he had been at home 24/7 and hadn't done anything, I would have had a point. Now it made perfect sense to understand his situation. If I would have had a superbusy week with overtime hours and not being at home, he would have annoyed me as well.

Anyone else any thoughts on their own (un)realistic expectations, that can influence their acceptance?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[gtrhr]

In theory I would like to go back to my xBPDgf.  When I think about our long drawn out history, there was a time I was practicing stoicism, as much as I possibly could  I think you could called it "radical acceptance" of a sort (i.e. I can change my own reactions knowing that she's not going to change), but even stoicism has to have limits in regards to what you could tolerate.  Clearly I wasn't in a happy state, but I was also determined to not let her erratic changes in mood and behavior affect me as much as they had previously.

Obviously any form of physical abuse shouldn't be tolerated.  But what about verbal abuse, emotional manipulations, and all of the other traits?  My limit was being told that in the future I would "murder her" and that during consensual sex she felt like she was "being raped."  My limit was also being told one night she "thought she hit my car while backing out of the driveway" but didn't bother to share with me until several hours later.  This coming from a person who would launch into a tirade if your car tire went 2 inches onto her lawn.  I'm not exaggerating as I'm sure many of you can attest to in your own relationships with pwBPD.  Even using calm language like you are taught in couples counseling, "When you do X I feel Y" as I attempted to explain to her how upset I was that she didn't inform me about my car it still ended up in her losing control, even trying to make me exit her vehicle late at night far away from her house.  She threatened to call the police - and she was the one acting insane.  I said to go ahead and do that if she felt it necessary, but I'm not going to be stranded just because she told me "get out".  These behaviors added up to really dangerous behaviors in my mind.  Should I have radically accepted them?  Hell no.

The notion of radically accepting abuse is something I cannot accept, and I don't believe anyone should.

I do think there is a lot of validity in training yourself to become non-reactive to someone else and their emotional extremes, and then seeing if there is anything to work with in the relationship.  :)oes their behavior change once your alleged "triggers" to them are removed?  If that is what radical acceptance means I can understand it.  But it's got to get you somewhere and not just keep you endlessly in a holding pattern.

I think once you make changes to yourself and the other person continues really unacceptable behavior it's time to radically accept it's over and move on.

[yeeter]

For me, expectations were/are a hurdle. And letting go of these is analogous to a grieving period.  Loss of the concept that your relationship will never be what you hoped. 

In the thermostat analogy it means it had a couple cross fused logic gates during production.  It's never going to function normally.  I can learn some if it's function. Some I might be able to 'fix' but the basics are never going to change

But I can change what I expect of it.  Somedays it's going peg off the chart even though it says it's within normal range.  But I know this will happen sometimes and no need to react

I could get upset at it.  That would do me no good. And wouldd only make it respond more erratically.

So it's accept. Or not accept (doesn't work well for either side, been there done that).

[waverider]

In theory I would like to go back to my xBPDgf.  When I think about our long drawn out history, there was a time I was practicing stoicism, as much as I possibly could  I think you could called it "radical acceptance" of a sort (i.e. I can change my own reactions knowing that she's not going to change), but even stoicism has to have limits in regards to what you could tolerate.  Clearly I wasn't in a happy state, but I was also determined to not let her erratic changes in mood and behavior affect me as much as they had previously.

Obviously any form of physical abuse shouldn't be tolerated.  But what about verbal abuse, emotional manipulations, and all of the other traits?  My limit was being told that in the future I would "murder her" and that during consensual sex she felt like she was "being raped."  My limit was also being told one night she "thought she hit my car while backing out of the driveway" but didn't bother to share with me until several hours later.  This coming from a person who would launch into a tirade if your car tire went 2 inches onto her lawn.  I'm not exaggerating as I'm sure many of you can attest to in your own relationships with pwBPD.  Even using calm language like you are taught in couples counseling, "When you do X I feel Y" as I attempted to explain to her how upset I was that she didn't inform me about my car it still ended up in her losing control, even trying to make me exit her vehicle late at night far away from her house.  She threatened to call the police - and she was the one acting insane.  I said to go ahead and do that if she felt it necessary, but I'm not going to be stranded just because she told me "get out".  These behaviors added up to really dangerous behaviors in my mind.  Should I have radically accepted them?  Hell no.

The notion of radically accepting abuse is something I cannot accept, and I don't believe anyone should.

I do think there is a lot of validity in training yourself to become non-reactive to someone else and their emotional extremes, and then seeing if there is anything to work with in the relationship.  :)oes their behavior change once your alleged "triggers" to them are removed?  If that is what radical acceptance means I can understand it.  But it's got to get you somewhere and not just keep you endlessly in a holding pattern.

I think once you make changes to yourself and the other person continues really unacceptable behavior it's time to radically accept it's over and move on.

Radical acceptance does not mean accepting that you should take abuse. It may mean that you accept that at times they will abuse you as part of their coping mechanisms, that you will then have to enact a boundary and remove yourself. By radically accepting this cause and consequence you will be able to do this without taking it personally and being hurt. As opposed to taking it "stoically'.

An example: You have a leaky raincoat that cant keep out anything stronger than a shower but its comfortable. Most of the time it copes but occasionally it wont. You know this. If you go out and it rains heavy you get wet. You can either be stoic get wet, get annoyed with it again, but persevere. Or you can accept that it wont be up to the job, and go change it. May be inconvenient but you knew you would have to do this if it rained hard, and hard rain is always a possibility, you know this. Your boundary in this case is that you are not going to stand there getting a drenching when you can do something about it.

[gtrhr]

that you will then have to enact a boundary and remove yourself.

Precisely.  To me this part about having a boundary and removing yourself, as well as understanding that someone who has a history of verbal and/or physical abuse is not going to change unless they are actively getting help are things I think should be the focus of the radical acceptance.

[White_Lily]

Radical acceptance does not mean accepting that you should take abuse. It may mean that you accept that at times they will abuse you as part of their coping mechanisms, that you will then have to enact a boundary and remove yourself. By radically accepting this cause and consequence you will be able to do this without taking it personally and being hurt. As opposed to taking it "stoically'.

What a great way to put it Waverider! Thanks so much. I wouldn't be able to interpret "radical acceptance" this way on my own.

[waverider]

that you will then have to enact a boundary and remove yourself.

Precisely.  To me this part about having a boundary and removing yourself, as well as understanding that someone who has a history of verbal and/or physical abuse is not going to change unless they are actively getting help are things I think should be the focus of the radical acceptance.

For this to be acceptance you need to accept that it is outside of your control. If you are jumping up and down trying to get them to go to therapy and they are refusing. That is not acceptance. That is realization they need help without accepting that it is out of your control.


The purpose of radical acceptance is to relieve your burden of trying to change what YOU cant change. Letting go if you like.

[waverider]

There are a lot of concerns being expressed at the moment about members wanting to convince their partners, current or ex, into seeing things the way they do and struggling to accept that things" just are" so I though I might just resurrect this thread for anyone who still struggles with what acceptance is about.

[gtrhr]

Still this term seems way too open ended how it can be applied. It seems so easy for anyone to come along and twist this around to suit their purposes.  Imagine what a BPD would do with that information if they heard you should radically accept them!

"Radical acceptance" could easily be interpreted that it's the idea that you can adapt to their awful behavior since they won't change.  When really the only adaptation you should be doing is rejecting them from your life.   It's a radical step to reject them for sure if they've been in your life for years or months.  But you're just radically accepting abuse if you chose to continue on with the person.

I think the term "acceptance" is being used interchangeably with "recognition" in some of the replies earlier.

Why should I "radically accept" someone's behavior that I already "recognize" as horrible and abusive?  It's not like I'm denial about that it in the first place.  There is nothing radical to do there or accept even.  I'm not even in denial that they will change even though part of me still wants to try.  The true me rejects abuse, not accepts it.  The only "radical" part for me is really making that next step of rejecting the person fully because that's what really needs to happen in most of these situations.  And because it's so painful since you already had a deep love bond with them and believe they did too.

Radial rejection then?  Is that a concept?

I think what the BPD wants is for you to do is actually just as I described.  Be a stoic.  Accept them.  Take the abuse from them and be non-reactive.  Meet all of their needs and don't worry about your own.  Or better yet come whining back to them for approval so that you're totally dependent on them for your feelings of self worth.  Or better yet, be clueless and not know how her game works at all!

Mine wasn't willing to change for very long, oh sure she made some brief efforts but they evaporated quickly in meltdowns, and wondering "why we need to talk" about relationship issues for 15 minutes a day as our therapist prescribed after months of abuse.  Why didn't she have to radically accept what the therapist said we have to do?  That's just it, it's never been a two sided relationship and probably the same for most folks on this board.

No one suggests to radically accept a mass murderer's behavior.  So why should I radically accept that a BPD goes around recklessly destroying relationships.

The answer I won't and I don't.

I get it if it hearing it the first time helps someone go from point A (stuck) to point B (moving on) and they finally acknowledge they need to give up trying with their partner then it's of value.  But if it keeps you stuck in the cycle it's not a good concept.

[123Phoebe]

Still this term seems way too open ended how it can be applied. It seems so easy for anyone to come along and twist this around to suit their purposes.  

Hi gtrhr,

Could the same be said for how you're interpreting Radical Acceptance?  To suit your purposes?

I liken RA to the Alcoholic's Anonymous Prayer:

God grant me the serenity to "Accept" the things I cannot change,

the "Courage" to change the things I can

and the "Wisdom" to know the difference.



I appreciate your thoughts on this subject very much!  We're all different and had wildly different situations in which we came to this site from.  I love different perspectives and anything that makes me think about different ways of looking at things.  The one thing I believe we all had/have in common is: Confusion.

Did it help me to blame the people with BPD (traits) in my life for my confusion?  Not really.  Accepting that I feel confused is what has helped the most, and the steps I can take to unravel my own twisted thoughts and emotions.

It takes courage to change the things we can.

[waverider]

Still this term seems way too open ended how it can be applied. It seems so easy for anyone to come along and twist this around to suit their purposes.  Imagine what a BPD would do with that information if they heard you should radically accept them!

"Radical acceptance" could easily be interpreted that it's the idea that you can adapt to their awful behavior since they won't change.  When really the only adaptation you should be doing is rejecting them from your life.   It's a radical step to reject them for sure if they've been in your life for years or months.  But you're just radically accepting abuse if you chose to continue on with the person.

I think the term "acceptance" is being used interchangeably with "recognition" in some of the replies earlier.

Why should I "radically accept" someone's behavior that I already "recognize" as horrible and abusive?  It's not like I'm denial about that it in the first place.  There is nothing radical to do there or accept even.  I'm not even in denial that they will change even though part of me still wants to try.  The true me rejects abuse, not accepts it.  The only "radical" part for me is really making that next step of rejecting the person fully because that's what really needs to happen in most of these situations.  And because it's so painful since you already had a deep love bond with them and believe they did too.

Radial rejection then?  Is that a concept?

I think what the BPD wants is for you to do is actually just as I described.  Be a stoic.  Accept them.  Take the abuse from them and be non-reactive.  Meet all of their needs and don't worry about your own.  Or better yet come whining back to them for approval so that you're totally dependent on them for your feelings of self worth.  Or better yet, be clueless and not know how her game works at all!

Mine wasn't willing to change for very long, oh sure she made some brief efforts but they evaporated quickly in meltdowns, and wondering "why we need to talk" about relationship issues for 15 minutes a day as our therapist prescribed after months of abuse.  Why didn't she have to radically accept what the therapist said we have to do?  That's just it, it's never been a two sided relationship and probably the same for most folks on this board.

No one suggests to radically accept a mass murderer's behavior.  So why should I radically accept that a BPD goes around recklessly destroying relationships.

The answer I won't and I don't.

I get it if it hearing it the first time helps someone go from point A (stuck) to point B (moving on) and they finally acknowledge they need to give up trying with their partner then it's of value.  But if it keeps you stuck in the cycle it's not a good concept.

Radical Acceptance does not mean compromising your boundaries or values. It means not wasting your energies trying to alter what you cant alter, eg the basic character of the issues in front of you. Rather accepting they are there and finding an alternative way to live your life around the issue, using you energies on things you can influence.

To use an analogy, if a pwVBPD is likened to a mountain standing in your path to your happiness then you dont hammer away at the mountain with a pick axe trying to cut a path through on your chosen route. Instead you recognise that it is there, attempting to hammer through it is pointless and you find a more passable way around it so you can continue. That is acceptance

Of course people can twist the term for their own cause. That is their problem not yours.  your reality is yours. It could be said the accepting that someone else's reality is non of your business is radical acceptance in itself. The "radical' part is that it is not the "norma'l way

[ziniztar]

To use an analogy, if a pwBPD is likened to a mountain standing in your path to your happiness then you dont hammer away at the mountain with a pick axe trying to cut a path through on your chosen route. Instead you recognise that it is there, attempting to hammer through it is pointless and you find a more passable way around it so you can continue. That is acceptance

I love your analogies waverider! 

[White_Lily]

I agree with Ziniztar, and thank you waverider for bringing this thread back to life. I think it is a core issue to dealing with a BPD loved one. Without radical acceptance, it would be extremely difficult to consider staying in a relationship.  When I fail to accept a challenge or a situation related to my partner's behaviour, I remind myself that I am dealing with a mentally ill person, which helps me transforming my anger into empathy (most of the time, but not always).  Empathy helps one resisting the urge to try to change things because when you put yourself in the BPD's shoes you realize how difficult it is to change anything. A BPD person did not choose to be mentally ill.  So when you keep working on the basis of empathy, radical acceptance becomes easier to achieve.  It is like anything else in life, if you keep practicing "something," you become better at it. 

[Moselle]

I must admit, like GT, I was very sceptical about radical acceptance, and I really couldn't see myself doing it, until the startling realisation that all the effort I had put in, all the money I had spent (4 years of therapy, couple and individual) had not made the slightest difference to my uBPDw whatsoever. I had been chipping away at that mountain (thanks waverider, I also love that metaphor), thinking I could move it. So I tried it. I put down that pick-axe, and set myself free from a thankless and dead-end job.

And you know what, the mountain moved on its own. Not much, but it moved.

[White_Lily]

I totally agree with you Moselle. Letting go moves mountains! Good for you. I wonder sometimes, are we challenged by BPDs or are BPDs challenging us?

[gtrhr]

I radically accept that I am outnumbered on this topic.    But I hear people saying radical acceptance doesn't mean compromising your principles or subjecting yourself to abuse.  Glad to know that.

Analogies can be useful.  When I felt weakest was when I used an analogy that I'm a fish in a pond and she is the fisherman - she has control and she always chose to throw me back.

Then i started to realize I don't need to look at her as larger than life.  I actually started to see myself more as a mountain in the relationship, not like the analogy of someone standing between happiness and chipping a path, but more like my emotions and stability are the ones that were solid and just sort of always stood there.  Once I could look at her as a mountain climber who was weak and chose to give up it kind of changed my perspective a lot.

I mean obviously we're both dynamic individuals and the analogies go only so far, but it really can help not to visualize yourself as powerless in the situation.

[waverider]

I radically accept that I am outnumbered on this topic.    But I hear people saying radical acceptance doesn't mean compromising your principles or subjecting yourself to abuse.  Glad to know that.

Analogies can be useful.  When I felt weakest was when I used an analogy that I'm a fish in a pond and she is the fisherman - she has control and she always chose to throw me back.

Then i started to realize I don't need to look at her as larger than life.  I actually started to see myself more as a mountain in the relationship, not like the analogy of someone standing between happiness and chipping a path, but more like my emotions and stability are the ones that were solid and just sort of always stood there.  Once I could look at her as a mountain climber who was weak and chose to give up it kind of changed my perspective a lot.

I mean obviously we're both dynamic individuals and the analogies go only so far, but it really can help not to visualize yourself as powerless in the situation.

Maybe this analogy may suit you better:

You are a large rock in a BPD river, trying to dam the river is pointless, it will just back up until the level builds and overflows you. Better to accept you are a solid rock with a solid foundation, accept that the river will find another path and flow around you, allow yourself to become a safe island in that river.