Wife with possible Borderline PD...

[MaroonLiquid]

Hi,

I am new to this forum (posted on L! first) and dealing with issues from what I believe to be BPD in my wife. We were married 4 years ago and over time, things have gotten progressively worse. I will say this, I love her and would always be here for her no matter how hard treatment would be. I really do care about her and her well being.

When we started out dating, it was incredible. She was the most loving, caring and amazing woman I had ever met. We were best friends, lord each other deeply and both agreed that we were soul mates. The passion and love making between us was nothing short of incredible. I did notice some things about her that seemed "a little off" but figured it was hormones as she is 43 when we got together and is now 47. I am 37. We each have 3 kids from a previous marriage so I guess you could say we are the "Brady Bunch". I love her kids (12, 16 and 17) as my own (5,10, and 11) and am devastated for them as they are caught in the middle of this whole thing (more on the situation in a moment).

As time went on, I noticed how angry she would get over little things and would "kick me out" or give me the silent treatment (sometimes for a day or so) and the fight would be over stupid stuff. One day I would be the best man in the world and her "knight and shining armor", and then the next, I would be the worst ever.  I started noticing triggers: dealing with her deadbeat ex-husband, right before she left to go out of town without me (business or with the kids). She has a lot of anger toward her ex husband who doesn't see his kids and doesn't pay child support to the tune of about 30K dollars.  She also has a lot of anger toward her dad who was a user, abuser and was never there for her.  Within the last couple of days, I have found this and other sites about BPD and it doesn't scare me, it helps me to realize how to help her and be there for her.

     Now, about two weeks ago, we got into a fight over something stupid and she went completely silent. After a couple of days, I went snooping. We have access to each others cell phones, emails, Facebook, etc. and I found that she had applied for a rental house not far away (5 min from where we live). She told her mom and sister that I am abusive. I confronted her on it and said she needed space and that she needed to move out and wanted me to get my own place so that we could work on ourselves and the marriage in peace. She said she loves me and that she wants the marriage to work, but needs her space so that she can work on herself and I can work on me. She said she wanted me to find another place until she moves into this new house so that it isn't awkward for the kids. After fighting her on it for a day or two, I agreed to give her her space. That was Saturday. Sunday, I came home and started to pack, and she asked me to help her make dinner. While making dinner, it was like having my wife back and we were hugging, kissing, telling each other we loved each other and then she asked me to stay. We ended up making love and as usual, it was incredible. Monday, she said she still wanted me to leave. Tuesday, she got paid (I got paid yesterday) and I had some automatic drafts coming out for some bills and she got extremely irate over the phone calling me everything in the book but a child of God and went and ripped all the money out of the account. I tried to tell her about the electric bill and she wouldn't listen. She started to ignore me again. A day and a half went by with no contact and then she contacted me and said, "Hi, how are you?" it was pretty much all business but nice and lasted about 20 minutes. Then next morning, the electricity got cutoff for non payment and she again called and was irate. i tried to tell her that I told her about it and she wouldn't listen. Asked if I was going to screw her over and told her I wouldn't and she knows I wouldn't. Called me names, asked why I was across town (we have an app that tracks our whole family) and again, silence. That lasted until yesterday when she texted me about a bill. I asked if she wanted to get together to settle some financial things and no response.  As the day went on, she contacted me again and then this morning, I told her to please be careful as she has a bad back and knee and didn't want her to re-injure it.

I have stayed really steady with her and not raised my voice, and stayed even keel according to what God is telling me to do and at the advice of my therapist the last few days. I stopped defending myself to her as I know it doesn't do any good because I know the stage she is in and waiting till she cycles out of it.  I know to her right now I'm the bad guy and she has blacklisted me.  I have texted the kids to tell them I love them with no response. Not worried about that as I know they are in an impossible situation and don't know what they were told, but I still love them and am here for them.  She is moving into her rent house today. I am somewhat at peace in spite of all this.  She has separated all the bills.   I am left wanting to get healthy and work on myself, love her, help her through it and make our marriage work in spite of this. Any advice?

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

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[motherof1yearold]

Hi,


First I would like to address the snooping... .In the future, I don't think that's a good idea. It can really make a person feel violated and untrustworthy. I can imagine that didn't blow over well! 

The part where she tells her family you are abusive could be her projecting. Is she emotionally or verbally abusive to you or the kids?

I also think the 'space' is a great idea for both parties

[MaroonLiquid]

I hate snooping, but the reason I did it at first was I thought she was possibly having an affair as I went through it with my first wife.  I'm not making excuses... .As far as the projecting, yes, she has been emotionally, verbally and physically abusive (three times) with me and verbally at times with the kids.  When she has physically gone after me, I have tried to keep her from hitting me, but never hit her. 

     Today, I realize her mental state isn't good.  I went over to the house to help her try and get the modem working (at her request) and as I have been for several weeks, have been very calm (done with the fighting and strife and trying to be different in how I handle her, honest to God).  I am really working on myself during this time by seeking God and changing the things about myself that are areas of conflict between her and I.  Anyway, she was very cold, and I was trying to tell her that I miss her and the kids (again, very calmly), and as she has been the last several days since ripping the money out of the bank, been VERY CRUEL.  Asking me, what do you expect?  We're separated.  I said, "I understood where you are.  I would like to open up some lines of communication (as she has been ignoring me basically) so that we can begin to rebuild our friendship."  She said, "oh, you mean like when you told me you were deleting your Facebook page?" I shut down my Facebook as it almost became a mode of sparring between us and I'm trying to cut off any area in my life where strife and rejection could flourish.  I deal with a big fear of rejection myself.  She threw everything I have ever done up in the conversation and even told me the kids were mad at me and didn't want me to come over.  Very hurtful (never showed it, but just said let's talk about it and could give me a reason as to why) as I have been those kids dad for over five years because their dad has nothing to do with them. So, after not getting the modem to work, she got in her car and I got in mine.  She left and I stayed in the driveway.  I guess she GPS'd me (a family app that can track all of us so we know where each other are) because when she realized I hadn't left, she came back and parked behind my car.  I thought maybe she wanted to talk,  it instead told me I needed to leave.  I did and then she followed me in her car several places.  She has never done that.  Then, a little later, she deleted me from her Facebook friends and put herself as separated which she said we shouldn't do because she wants the marriage to work and doesn't want to cause people to ask questions.  She is not the same woman I spent the evening with a week ago.  I know the move she just went through was difficult, but she chose it and chose for me not to be there to help (which she threw up to me).  Right now, I can't win with her no matter what I do.  I'm still standing for my marriage, just need advice and support. 

[formflier]

I hate snooping, but the reason I did it at first was I thought she was possibly having an affair as I went through it with my first wife.  I'm not making excuses... .As far as the projecting, yes, she has been emotionally, verbally and physically abusive (three times) with me and verbally at times with the kids.  When she has physically gone after me, I have tried to keep her from hitting me, but never hit her. 

     Today, I realize her mental state isn't good.  I went over to the house to help her try and get the modem working (at her request) and as I have been for several weeks, have been very calm (done with the fighting and strife and trying to be different in how I handle her, honest to God).  I am really working on myself during this time by seeking God and changing the things about myself that are areas of conflict between her and I.  Anyway, she was very cold, and I was trying to tell her that I miss her and the kids (again, very calmly), and as she has been the last several days since ripping the money out of the bank, been VERY CRUEL.  Asking me, what do you expect?  We're separated.  I said, "I understood where you are.  I would like to open up some lines of communication (as she has been ignoring me basically) so that we can begin to rebuild our friendship."  She said, "oh, you mean like when you told me you were deleting your Facebook page?" I shut down my Facebook as it almost became a mode of sparring between us and I'm trying to cut off any area in my life where strife and rejection could flourish.  I deal with a big fear of rejection myself.  She threw everything I have ever done up in the conversation and even told me the kids were mad at me and didn't want me to come over.  Very hurtful (never showed it, but just said let's talk about it and could give me a reason as to why) as I have been those kids dad for over five years because their dad has nothing to do with them. So, after not getting the modem to work, she got in her car and I got in mine.  She left and I stayed in the driveway.  I guess she GPS'd me (a family app that can track all of us so we know where each other are) because when she realized I hadn't left, she came back and parked behind my car.  I thought maybe she wanted to talk,  it instead told me I needed to leave.  I did and then she followed me in her car several places.  She has never done that.  Then, a little later, she deleted me from her Facebook friends and put herself as separated which she said we shouldn't do because she wants the marriage to work and doesn't want to cause people to ask questions.  She is not the same woman I spent the evening with a week ago.  I know the move she just went through was difficult, but she chose it and chose for me not to be there to help (which she threw up to me).  Right now, I can't win with her no matter what I do.  I'm still standing for my marriage, just need advice and support. 

Maroon,

Any updates on your situation?

I feel for you.  I'm in the middle of a therapeutic separation (sort of)... .long story.  Anyway... .things were rocky for a while... .but we are slowly rebuilding a friendship.

A few reactions to things you have said.  Yes... .she has chosen things that you are not a fan of.  But please try to put it in perspective... .she is heavily influenced by BPD traits.  So... .please try not to take it personally... .I still struggle with this... .but it does help to try and think that way.

Since there is a separation going on here... .on the one hand you need to keep hope alive to rebuild things.  On the other hand you need to prepare that the r/s may not work.  In other words you need to be getting legal advice.  This doesn't me "do" anything... .but get some advice.  Make sure it is with someone that is familiar with high conflict divorces.

Hang in there... I wish you best of luck!   

Please spend this time apart learning about this disorder and best tools do deal with it.

Can you read some of the tools on communication, validation and that kind of thing and then come back here and post your reactions to those lessons?  That will help us find a starting point to help you... .work on you!

[waverider]

It is obvious she is going through a crisis period. You need to keep in mind that a lot of what she says is knee jerk and not a considered opinion. There will be a lot of black and white.

Family and kids will have formed their own thoughts and not be overly influenced by any passing splitting that is going on at the moment.

I would suggest taking the peace and quiet that this separating period brings to allow the dust to settle so that you can be more objective, and not dragged into all this reactionary behavior.

i would also suggest getting rid of the tracking Ap.

[MaroonLiquid]

Thanks for the replies everyone.  i will post a good update tonight. 

[peace in steel town]

Sometimes snooping is the only way to find out the truth, especially when you are dealing with someone who takes lying to a new level.

[waverider]

Sometimes snooping is the only way to find out the truth, especially when you are dealing with someone who takes lying to a new level.

Problem is snooping and suspicion can become an obsession and take over your life and causing a bigger problem than it solves.

[MaroonLiquid]

Update:  The last few days have been interesting.  Since the night my wife followed me in the car, she has changed quite a bit.  As I said in an earlier post, I stayed calm the whole time and never raised my voice or argued as I have been doing for weeks.  Some things have changed (almost like a 270 degree change in four days LOL).

    So the day after the car chasing incident (Monday, car following was Sunday), she was in a completely different mood.  We went over to the old house (just her and I) and tried to pack up her office as I told her that since the internet was being set up on Tuesday at her new house, that should be the most important.  She agreed so we started.  Since she is technology impaired at any level (Her own words), I unhooked everything and told her how (as she wrote it down) to hook everything back up.  She works from home remotely from her corporate office (VPN) so it has to be hooked up a certain way or it won't work.  We were getting along great, laughing and talking.  I asked at one point how she was doing and she said she was ok.  I asked how the kids were and she said good.  I also asked if she needed anything and she said no.  She asked how I was and I told her taking everything one day at a time and following the Lord's leading.  I told her I missed her and she said she missed me too.  We got back on unhooking things and after a few minutes, I asked her if she wanted to go get a drink with me.  She said sure and we talked while riding in the car.  She said that the whole situation sucks (she caused it, but know not to say that) and I told her that we can work through it.  We have to work through it together.  She started balling and we got back to the house and she got back in her car and said she needed to go home.  I told her I loved her and she said she loved me too.

    On Tuesday, as I suspected (and obviously never voiced it), the internet was hooked up and she hooked up her work computer wrong.  I showed up at the old house to start work on the garage and after about 15 minutes, I got a phone call from her frustrated (not yelling, just obviously upset).  She told me that she set it up and obviously did something wrong because it isn't working.  I figured out what was wrong while talking with her and she needed a 50ft Cat5 cable (which I luckily had laying around as i keep all extra cables and A/V cords because I never know when/if I'll be in a pinch).  I asked her if she wanted to come get it or wanted me to bring it over.  She said go ahead and come over.  I went and hooked it up correctly and got it working and my wife thanked me profusely and kissed me.  She asked me to stay for dinner, and asked her was she sure as it was her house and didn't want the kids to feel awkward.  She said that they will have to get used to it.  We picked them up, came home and made dinner together.  :)inner with the kids was a little awkward as it was obvious they didn't want me there.  I told them, "Guys, I know this is your home.  i'm not here to impose on your space.  I am moving into my apartment next weekend.  I love your mom and want to work things out with her, but recognize this is your house."  It somewhat eased the tension, but still like I was an outsider.  We went and picked up our oldest daughter from work and then went back to her house. We watched TV until the kids went to bed and asked her several times if she wanted me to go and she said no every time.  Finally, we started making out which led to being intimate (not argument from me) and then she asked me to stay.  She said that she wasn't trying to use me and that she loves me.  We held each other until we fell asleep.  I got ready for work there and went to work before the kids ever got up (Wednesday).  

    On Wednesday, i asked her what her plans were and she told me she needed to work until about 7 to make up some work and I asked her if she wanted me to make dinner.  She said, "That would be great!"  I proceeded to make dinner at her place and we had dinner.  We picked our oldest daughter up from work after that and went to the old house to work on going through the garage and get everything ready for the garage sale.  We were getting along great, but the kids were being rude to each other and me.  Since we are "separated", I have completely let her discipline them as they aren't mine biologically even though I look at them as if they were.  I could tell it was getting to her throughout the night.  We loaded up the car with some stuff to take to the new house and while we were unloading it, my oldest son started to be rude with my stuff and completely ignore where I asked him to put them.  His mom called him out on it and was competed rude to her also.  It got to her and she came to me and said, "I don't understand why they act that way!"  I just nodded my head and said, "I know honey".  I did the dishes from dinner earlier and she too me that she knew I was being nice and didn't have to do them.  I told her I wanted to (as I know in the past, I didn't always pitch in on housework and trying to work on that) and finished them up.  The girls were on her bed with their laptop and trying to be cognizant of their feelings and desire for time with their mom, i decided to go ahead and go back to my sisters.  I told my wife I was leaving and she said she would walk me out.  I said bye to the girls and told the youngest happy birthday (Thursday was her birthday) and she said thanks.  i walked outside with my wife and she acted distant all of a sudden and sad.  I asked her what was wrong and she said, "Nothing."  I tried to give her a hug and she said she didn't need that.  She said she was going back inside and I told her I loved her and she said, "I love you too."  After going inside, I put my daughters birthday card on the front door and left.  I texted her later and told her about the card so it would fly off or disappear.

    Thursday (yesterday), I asked her what R wanted to do for her birthday and she said she would see.  I told her that I would make her a cake.  She texted me back a few hours later and said that R thought it was awkward with me there and wanted it to just be them.  I'll be honest, for someone who has called me dad for almost 6 years, that stung, but I just let it go. I told my wife that I understood and didn't want her feeling awkward on her birthday and that we would work through it eventually.  She said, "Thank you for understanding." and that she would text me later.  Later never came and saw their family birthday celebration pics on Facebook last night.  I let it go.  

    This morning I texted her about 8 and asked how the birthday celebration was and did she sleep well with no response.  We had plans to have lunch today and finally after two hours, I asked her if that was still the plan and she said that she couldn't afford it today and that we would have to get a raincheck.  i said, "I am your husband, why would you need to pay for yourself."  she didn't respond to that and instead asked if we could do it next Friday before she left town for 10 days.  I started to get mad, but let it go and said that sounded good.  Then she asked if I decided if I was going to take some furniture and I said yeah (back to "business".  She said she would be at the house at 6 and told her I would meet her there.  So that's where everything stands now.  She isn't painting me "black" but we are in the business stage again (hence the 270 degree comment earlier).  I am trying to take this in stride and be as kind and loving as I can at the same time confused at times by her behavior.  Hope this helps. I know it is long.

[formflier]

Update:  The last few days have been interesting.  Since the night my wife followed me in the car, she has changed quite a bit.  As I said in an earlier post, I stayed calm the whole time and never raised my voice or argued as I have been doing for weeks.  Some things have changed (almost like a 270 degree change in four days LOL).

    So the day after the car chasing incident (Monday, car following was Sunday), she was in a completely different mood.  We went over to the old house (just her and I) and tried to pack up her office as I told her that since the internet was being set up on Tuesday at her new house, that should be the most important.  She agreed so we started.  Since she is technology impaired at any level (Her own words), I unhooked everything and told her how (as she wrote it down) to hook everything back up.  She works from home remotely from her corporate office (VPN) so it has to be hooked up a certain way or it won't work.  We were getting along great, laughing and talking.  I asked at one point how she was doing and she said she was ok.  I asked how the kids were and she said good.  I also asked if she needed anything and she said no.  She asked how I was and I told her taking everything one day at a time and following the Lord's leading.  I told her I missed her and she said she missed me too.  We got back on unhooking things and after a few minutes, I asked her if she wanted to go get a drink with me.  She said sure and we talked while riding in the car.  She said that the whole situation sucks (she caused it, but know not to say that) and I told her that we can work through it.  We have to work through it together.  She started balling and we got back to the house and she got back in her car and said she needed to go home.  I told her I loved her and she said she loved me too.

    On Tuesday, as I suspected (and obviously never voiced it), the internet was hooked up and she hooked up her work computer wrong.  I showed up at the old house to start work on the garage and after about 15 minutes, I got a phone call from her frustrated (not yelling, just obviously upset).  She told me that she set it up and obviously did something wrong because it isn't working.  I figured out what was wrong while talking with her and she needed a 50ft Cat5 cable (which I luckily had laying around as i keep all extra cables and A/V cords because I never know when/if I'll be in a pinch).  I asked her if she wanted to come get it or wanted me to bring it over.  She said go ahead and come over.  I went and hooked it up correctly and got it working and my wife thanked me profusely and kissed me.  She asked me to stay for dinner, and asked her was she sure as it was her house and didn't want the kids to feel awkward.  She said that they will have to get used to it.  We picked them up, came home and made dinner together.  :)inner with the kids was a little awkward as it was obvious they didn't want me there.  I told them, "Guys, I know this is your home.  i'm not here to impose on your space.  I am moving into my apartment next weekend.  I love your mom and want to work things out with her, but recognize this is your house."  It somewhat eased the tension, but still like I was an outsider.  We went and picked up our oldest daughter from work and then went back to her house. We watched TV until the kids went to bed and asked her several times if she wanted me to go and she said no every time.  Finally, we started making out which led to being intimate (not argument from me) and then she asked me to stay.  She said that she wasn't trying to use me and that she loves me.  We held each other until we fell asleep.  I got ready for work there and went to work before the kids ever got up (Wednesday).  

    On Wednesday, i asked her what her plans were and she told me she needed to work until about 7 to make up some work and I asked her if she wanted me to make dinner.  She said, "That would be great!"  I proceeded to make dinner at her place and we had dinner.  We picked our oldest daughter up from work after that and went to the old house to work on going through the garage and get everything ready for the garage sale.  We were getting along great, but the kids were being rude to each other and me.  Since we are "separated", I have completely let her discipline them as they aren't mine biologically even though I look at them as if they were.  I could tell it was getting to her throughout the night.  We loaded up the car with some stuff to take to the new house and while we were unloading it, my oldest son started to be rude with my stuff and completely ignore where I asked him to put them.  His mom called him out on it and was competed rude to her also.  It got to her and she came to me and said, "I don't understand why they act that way!"  I just nodded my head and said, "I know honey".  I did the dishes from dinner earlier and she too me that she knew I was being nice and didn't have to do them.  I told her I wanted to (as I know in the past, I didn't always pitch in on housework and trying to work on that) and finished them up.  The girls were on her bed with their laptop and trying to be cognizant of their feelings and desire for time with their mom, i decided to go ahead and go back to my sisters.  I told my wife I was leaving and she said she would walk me out.  I said bye to the girls and told the youngest happy birthday (Thursday was her birthday) and she said thanks.  i walked outside with my wife and she acted distant all of a sudden and sad.  I asked her what was wrong and she said, "Nothing."  I tried to give her a hug and she said she didn't need that.  She said she was going back inside and I told her I loved her and she said, "I love you too."  After going inside, I put my daughters birthday card on the front door and left.  I texted her later and told her about the card so it would fly off or disappear.

    Thursday (yesterday), I asked her what R wanted to do for her birthday and she said she would see.  I told her that I would make her a cake.  She texted me back a few hours later and said that R thought it was awkward with me there and wanted it to just be them.  I'll be honest, for someone who has called me dad for almost 6 years, that stung, but I just let it go. I told my wife that I understood and didn't want her feeling awkward on her birthday and that we would work through it eventually.  She said, "Thank you for understanding." and that she would text me later.  Later never came and saw their family birthday celebration pics on Facebook last night.  I let it go.  

    This morning I texted her about 8 and asked how the birthday celebration was and did she sleep well with no response.  We had plans to have lunch today and finally after two hours, I asked her if that was still the plan and she said that she couldn't afford it today and that we would have to get a raincheck.  i said, "I am your husband, why would you need to pay for yourself."  she didn't respond to that and instead asked if we could do it next Friday before she left town for 10 days.  I started to get mad, but let it go and said that sounded good.  Then she asked if I decided if I was going to take some furniture and I said yeah (back to "business".  She said she would be at the house at 6 and told her I would meet her there.  So that's where everything stands now.  She isn't painting me "black" but we are in the business stage again (hence the 270 degree comment earlier).  I am trying to take this in stride and be as kind and loving as I can at the same time confused at times by her behavior.  Hope this helps. I know it is long.

OK... .so what is your plan?

What articles/lessons have you read on here to educate yourself about the situation?

What were your impressions of those articles?

[MaroonLiquid]

     OK, my plan?  my plan is to be the stabilizing force in my wife's life that she needs.  I am going through therapy and deliverance counseling myself for my issues (co-dependency among others from early childhood) to be as healthy as I can so that I can be that person in her life. 

     I have read all of the articles and lessons.   I am understanding a lot more.  Wish I would have seen this some time ago.  I understand her behaviors a lot better and why they happen (for example, when she rages and paints me black, she takes the kids somewhere by themselves and buys them something).  I have stopped defending myself (always did to the "Nth" degree" when she gets upset and understand it doesn't help.  Always knew it enraged her, but now understand it doesn't do any good because to them, it is a black and white issue. 

     Some of the techniques are hard to agree with because by nature, I feel like I am patronizing them and making their tantrums "acceptable".  At the same time, I have started validating a lot more as she wants to always know she is heard.  The issue is when I want to be heard, it's drama or it doesn't matter.  I have stared to be way more empathetic, but having trouble with that as that is where I feel like im patronizing her and showing her that her belief system is always "OK".  Trying to find the line with that.

     The article about self-mutilation helps me to understand why she can't lose weight (ive lost almost 70 and she wants to lose about 60) because it is her way of hurting herself ans she doesn't understand that yet.

     My wife hates when I try and comfort her when she gets upset about something and never understood why she wanted to be just left alone.  The extinction burst article makes me understand it a lot better.  I am learning how to deal with her better and it is making a difference already, but I have a ways to go to be completely healthy myself.  I signed a 6 month lease on my apartment and honestly, I need that time to get myself healthy.  We are still intimate and telling each other we love each other and are talking about moving back in when my lease is up at the end of January,  i believe it will be great for her as well, because it was real easy to always paint me black when things didn't go right (that doesn't mean I am saying I'm perfect because I'm far from it!).   She already knows something isn't right with her, so I believe that this will help her to see she needs help and God will open the door for her to understand that she may have this.  Hope this helps some!

[an0ught]

Hi MaroonLiquid,

sounds like you have an excellent plan put in motion. Some space will help a lot to calm waters.

    Some of the techniques are hard to agree with because by nature, I feel like I am patronizing them and making their tantrums "acceptable".  At the same time, I have started validating a lot more as she wants to always know she is heard.  The issue is when I want to be heard, it's drama or it doesn't matter.  I have stared to be way more empathetic, but having trouble with that as that is where I feel like im patronizing her and showing her that her belief system is always "OK".  Trying to find the line with that.

Validation is not agreement it is more about establishing feelings and facts and we don't have to like or agree with them. Feelings and facts are what they are and we withhold judgment. In that way we give space for the other side to process and judge the emotions and this is regulating then the emotion down. Would we judge then our judgment becomes the main focus and the problematic emotions would continue to upsetting the inner balance and cloud the thinking. The processing needs to be done by the other side - that is when regulation happens and learning begins.

Dealing with tantrums - yeah, sometimes we need to let go here. We can't prevent them but we can get up, walk and remove the audience. Over time boundaries can be tightened. At the beginning we may be content to be physically safe, then not being threatened or blackmailed with self injury, then... .In then end we should be treating each other with respect like other adults do too - this may not be a realistic goal for the first boundaries. Conflict behavior needs to be learned and to some degree the learning needs to happen on both sides.

[waverider]

 

     Some of the techniques are hard to agree with because by nature, I feel like I am patronizing them and making their tantrums "acceptable".  At the same time, I have started validating a lot more as she wants to always know she is heard.  The issue is when I want to be heard, it's drama or it doesn't matter.  I have stared to be way more empathetic, but having trouble with that as that is where I feel like im patronizing her and showing her that her belief system is always "OK".  Trying to find the line with that.

     

When my partner is trying to tell me something that I know is plain wrong I imagine to myself that she is telling me that she seriously things the moon is made of cheese. Takes the seriousness of it away. Then I ask myself how does that affect me, and what harm does it do if I allow her to think this?

As far as things being "fair" that only bugs me and causes frustration occasionally. I don't allow it to ruin my day too much. It just is. Ask yourself is my day going to be better if I argue about this issue, what will it achieve?

[formflier]

     OK, my plan?  my plan is to be the stabilizing force in my wife's life that she needs.  I am going through therapy and deliverance counseling myself for my issues (co-dependency among others from early childhood) to be as healthy as I can so that I can be that person in her life. 

     I have read all of the articles and lessons.   I am understanding a lot more.  Wish I would have seen this some time ago.  I understand her behaviors a lot better and why they happen (for example, when she rages and paints me black, she takes the kids somewhere by themselves and buys them something).  I have stopped defending myself (always did to the "Nth" degree" when she gets upset and understand it doesn't help.  Always knew it enraged her, but now understand it doesn't do any good because to them, it is a black and white issue. 

     Some of the techniques are hard to agree with because by nature, I feel like I am patronizing them and making their tantrums "acceptable".  At the same time, I have started validating a lot more as she wants to always know she is heard.  The issue is when I want to be heard, it's drama or it doesn't matter.  I have stared to be way more empathetic, but having trouble with that as that is where I feel like im patronizing her and showing her that her belief system is always "OK".  Trying to find the line with that.

     The article about self-mutilation helps me to understand why she can't lose weight (ive lost almost 70 and she wants to lose about 60) because it is her way of hurting herself ans she doesn't understand that yet.

     My wife hates when I try and comfort her when she gets upset about something and never understood why she wanted to be just left alone.  The extinction burst article makes me understand it a lot better.  I am learning how to deal with her better and it is making a difference already, but I have a ways to go to be completely healthy myself.  I signed a 6 month lease on my apartment and honestly, I need that time to get myself healthy.  We are still intimate and telling each other we love each other and are talking about moving back in when my lease is up at the end of January,  i believe it will be great for her as well, because it was real easy to always paint me black when things didn't go right (that doesn't mean I am saying I'm perfect because I'm far from it!).   She already knows something isn't right with her, so I believe that this will help her to see she needs help and God will open the door for her to understand that she may have this.  Hope this helps some!

Good plan!

I might suggest that you put self-care and getting yourself healthy (physically and mentally) at the top of the list.  Be a stabilizing force to her second.

Which article or lesson surprised you the most?  Why?

[MaroonLiquid]

Update: so after four good days, a trigger happened for my wife through Facebook.  Unfortunately, I didn't empathize and instead said she just needed to let it go.  She said, "Of course I do, I have no right to be angry, as usual with you!" And got up and stormed out of the room.  and I did my very best to let things go and didn't bring it up again.  Later, she got caught telling a lie in front of the kids and then I got the "black paint" and silent treatment.  Yesterday she said she needed to work late on Thursday and the kids could help me move in my apartment and that would let her focus on getting some work done.  So today, our son asked her if she talked to me yet.  I asked her what he was talking about and the first time she said, "Oh nothing."  I said, "No, what is he talking about?"  She told me they didn't want to help me move because I didn't help them."  I said, "Honey, if you'll recall, I told you multiple times that I wanted to, even the morning of the move, and your response was that you didn't want me there while you did that because it would be awkward.  She said "No, I told you If you were going to make it awkward... ."  I never got visibly upset, tried to defend myselfor angry, but instead stayed even keel and made it very clear that her, God and I KNOW the truth and .  She got caught and then threw a tantrum and told the kids it was time to go and headed to the car.  After I helped her unload some stuff at her place, she laid down and I went in to try and talk to her.  I said is there anything you need?  She said, "nope."  Tried to hold her hand and she pulled it away.  I told her that it was obvious that she was upset and asked her if she wanted to talk about it.  She said no and then I kissed her on the forehead and told her to sleep well and I would talk to her tomorrow.  No am trying to be truly different and not fight.  I think she sees that, but even if she doesn't, I'm still working on myself as first priority and then her and my children.  It's frustrating at times, but handling it a lot better!  Thanks for the support!

[waverider]

Update: so after four good days, a trigger happened for my wife through Facebook.  Unfortunately, I didn't empathize and instead said she just needed to let it go.  She said, "Of course I do, I have no right to be angry, as usual with you!" And got up and stormed out of the room.  and I did my very best to let things go and didn't bring it up again.  Later, she got caught telling a lie in front of the kids and then I got the "black paint" and silent treatment.  Yesterday she said she needed to work late on Thursday and the kids could help me move in my apartment and that would let her focus on getting some work done.  So today, our son asked her if she talked to me yet.  I asked her what he was talking about and the first time she said, "Oh nothing."  I said, "No, what is he talking about?"  She told me they didn't want to help me move because I didn't help them."  I said, "Honey, if you'll recall, I told you multiple times that I wanted to, even the morning of the move, and your response was that you didn't want me there while you did that because it would be awkward.  She said "No, I told you If you were going to make it awkward... ."  I never got visibly upset, tried to defend myselfor angry, but instead stayed even keel and made it very clear that her, God and I KNOW the truth and .  She got caught and then threw a tantrum and told the kids it was time to go and headed to the car.  After I helped her unload some stuff at her place, she laid down and I went in to try and talk to her.  I said is there anything you need?  She said, "nope."  Tried to hold her hand and she pulled it away.  I told her that it was obvious that she was upset and asked her if she wanted to talk about it.  She said no and then I kissed her on the forehead and told her to sleep well and I would talk to her tomorrow.  No am trying to be truly different and not fight.  I think she sees that, but even if she doesn't, I'm still working on myself as first priority and then her and my children.  It's frustrating at times, but handling it a lot better!  Thanks for the support!

Good work, every time you stay the course you will feel stronger. It may take a while for her to change though, as this is a change and will put her out of rhythm for a while.

Stick at it.

[MaroonLiquid]

This morning I remembered another trigger besides yesterdays that is playing into this also.  She is leaving town for 8 days on Friday with the kids on a 16 hour drive and trips (business or pleasure) always been a source of contention for her, especially going without me.  Now she is going to her family's that I have been painted black to, so I am curious how that is going to go.  In the past, trips have always created a fight, but I refuse to let it anymore.  I texted her this morning to tell her "good morning honey" and with no response.  Silent treatment again.  Yay   ... .I will stay the course however.  God is strengthening and changing me and I'm the only one that I can worry about.  She will come home after vacation to a house that she got in a fit of black rage behind my back, and one that I don't live in on a daily basis or have access to without her permission.  I already see her in some ways thinking, "Why in the h$ll did I do this?"  With me having my own apartment, I believe she will have to look at things much differently now and believe that will open the door for her to seek help with me by her side!  I love her, want the best for her and believe I'm the person God put here for her.  I need to be healthy first and foremost and is why I'm seeking help.  I know that, regardless if she ever changes.

[MaroonLiquid]

So now, again its all business with her in our communication regarding splittling the remaining bills on our old place.  Funny how when you tell the truth in a loving way in front of the kids they lied to they go back to painting you black.       I'm just going along with it and showing the discrepancies of what is owed.  This is part of her push/pull tactic also. 

[MaroonLiquid]

A lot of updates today... .Sorry... .So now she is accusing me of arguing with her when I showed her the bank statements and contradicted what she said in "black and white" (no pun intended).     I told her I wasn't arguing and that I won't and then asked her when she was going to be at the old house this evening so that I could get my stuff ready to move in my apartment tomorrow and finish helping her clean.  Aaaaand no response.        

[formflier]

A lot of updates today... .Sorry... .So now she is accusing me of arguing with her when I showed her the bank statements and contradicted what she said in "black and white" (no pun intended).     I told her I wasn't arguing and that I won't and then asked her when she was going to be at the old house this evening so that I could get my stuff ready to move in my apartment tomorrow and finish helping her clean.  Aaaaand no response.        

Hey... .quick response here.  You may have invalidate her... .by disagreeing. 

Think about... ."I'm sorry your feel that way... .when can we meet at the house to get my stuff ready to move"

as opposed to

"you argued with me"... ."no I didn't... .when can we meet at the house to get my stuff ready to move"

Hopefully some other senior members can sweeten these responses up a bit... .you can probably through in some validation and praise before going for the when can you meet me.

[MaroonLiquid]

So as I picked stuff up from her house, she started hitting me up for money and trying to start a fight.  I almost got sucked in.  She created this whole mess and now wants me to pay her 500 dollars by tomorrow.  In other words, a no win situation for me.  Is this her way of dealing with the separation that she created and making me look bad no matter what I do?

[formflier]

So as I picked stuff up from her house, she started hitting me up for money and trying to start a fight.  I almost got sucked in.  She created this whole mess and now wants me to pay her 500 dollars by tomorrow.  In other words, a no win situation for me.  Is this her way of dealing with the separation that she created and making me look bad no matter what I do?

Boy... .my initial reaction is that you don't answer the money thing.  If you are separated... .you are separated.  Of course they will try to confuse that.

Please describe almost getting sucked in. 

Write out what you said... she said... .etc etc.  I can probably help more with that... .than exactly what to say about money.

Giving over money with any strings attached is "dealmaking"... .dealmaking with someone with a PD is bad business.

[waverider]

You have to be careful about inadvertently setting up new precedents

[MaroonLiquid]

     I believe there was a trigger with her because I had to get the TV from her house.  When I got there to get it, I could tell she was "loaded for bear".  Basically, she said I owed her for half of the current bills (for last month) and haven't denied them.  I did tell her that there is no way she should expect her to pay all that by tomorrow as I don't have anything at my apartment.  She said she doesn't care and that I owed half of them.  I then agreed to pay it because I would rather do that then fight with her.  Maybe she expected me to beg her to stay with her in her new place and when I didn't, she took it as rejection and then put me on the defensive.  Still never yelled at her or raised my voice.  Haven't done that in a long time.  Knowing what outflow I have (I make good money but have 1400 a month in child support [never missed a payment and been paying since my divorce in early 2010, and she gets none from her ex who is 30,000 behind which has always been a big source of contention for her], 800 a month in insurance, etc), it's almost like its her way of devaluing me.  She has done it before. 

     The thing is, I tried to talk to her about getting counseling during her "dissociation" (a few weeks ago when getting the other house and turning me black) and she wasn't having it.  She has told me before that when she gets angry, she feels like she can't control some of the things she does (she knows its going on, can't stop it and having an out of body type thing).  But now I understand why she would make the statement, "You aren't going to leave are you?".  She didn't say it in a scared way, but more of a hateful, "you aren't going to do what you agreed to (move out and let her have her space) are you" way.  I think then that was fear of rejection/abandonment speaking and I didn't see it, but instead took it as rejection and told her that I would do what I told her I would because I am a man of my word. 

     Anyway, yesterday, we hugged me, kissed and said we loved each other.  I can tell she is still mad, but I think part of it is she is going out of town this evening (another trigger).  She also knows that when she comes home, I'm not going to be there (at the house).  I told her yesterday that I'm not going anywhere even though I have my own apartment for six months, that I love her very much and we would get through this together.   I think all of this has spiraled out of control (self mutilation) for her very quickly and she doesn't know what to do.  In that respect, I feel bad for her because I hate to see her like this and know that she needs help.  I'm praying God reveals this to her.  She knows something isn't right and has told me so.

[MaroonLiquid]

Another update:  Yesterday afternoon, I was trying to get the old house cleaned up and asked her about a piece of furniture and if it was supposed to go to her house.  It completely set her off.  She said I was supposed to put it on my truck and deliver it to her house.  I tried to tell her that she only told me about stuff that needed transporting to Goodwill and she called me a liar and told me to get out of her house and that she would get it done herself.  I told her she was being unreasonable and that I don't mind doing it.  I got the money for my part of the bills out and gave it to her so she could pay them.  I then told he I would help her load the stuff and transport it to her house.  When we made our second load to her house, she was on the phone crying to her mom (painting me black I'm sure) and when she got off, I told her it would be ok and we would get through this.  She yelled, "Shut the f$ck up!" and told me she was done dealing with me.  I said nicely but stern, "You don't have a right to speak to me that way.  It's unacceptable in front of the children."  She looked at me and said, "While I'm on vacation, do not call or text me, period!"  I said ok.  I haven't talked to her since.  The hardest part is yesterday morning, she told me she loved me.  I know when she goes out of town, she always gets like this and in a couple of days, she goes back to normal.  However, she is spending a week with family that she has completely painted me black to.  What should I expect as far as her contacting me?  I love her and miss her already!

[MaroonLiquid]

So 2 full days that my wife has been gone and no contact from either side yet.  She told me not to contact her in any way while on vacation and I told her I wouldn't.  Sticking to my word.  I'm actually surprised she hasn't contacted me yet.  I can see her posts on Facebook, and her mine, but its not the same!  It's getting easier, but I still miss her.  This sucks!  I am working in me though and getting stronger!  I need to!  Thanks for the support here and allowing me to vent!

[an0ught]

So 2 full days that my wife has been gone and no contact from either side yet.  She told me not to contact her in any way while on vacation and I told her I wouldn't.  Sticking to my word.  I'm actually surprised she hasn't contacted me yet.  I can see her posts on Facebook, and her mine, but its not the same!  It's getting easier, but I still miss her.  This sucks!  I am working in me though and getting stronger!  I need to!  Thanks for the support here and allowing me to vent!

This is tough . On the other hand a break can be really healthy at times putting old conflicts into perspective.

[MaroonLiquid]

So earlier, my wife contacted me regarding a bill and asked for the information to pay it online and I gave it to her with nothing more and she tried to ask why we have only paid a certain amount and and said that we couldn't pay more at the time (no interest for a year type thing and isnt over till Jan 2015), told her we would get it done and let it go.  I didn't say I love you, no affectionate comments, just what she asked for.  I'm not putting myself out there to get rejected anymore.  She knows how I feel and have made it very clear.  Now, my question is, what was the purpose of her contact when she wanted the no contact adhered to while "she was on vacation", and considering she has paid it several times before?  Was she just seeing if I would answer?  It also felt like she was trying to start a fight, but didn't let it.   

[formflier]

So 2 full days that my wife has been gone and no contact from either side yet.  She told me not to contact her in any way while on vacation and I told her I wouldn't.  Sticking to my word.  I'm actually surprised she hasn't contacted me yet.  I can see her posts on Facebook, and her mine, but its not the same!  It's getting easier, but I still miss her.  This sucks!  I am working in me though and getting stronger!  I need to!  Thanks for the support here and allowing me to vent!

This is tough . On the other hand a break can be really healthy at times putting old conflicts into perspective.

MaroonLiquid,

I would encourage you to embrace the "break".  I'm still on a break from living with my family.  It is tough... .but the comment about putting old conflicts into perspective is right on target. 

And ultimately... .when I balance out lowering conflict or how much I "miss" my family.    The advantages of lower conflict are much... much... .bigger.

I will also say that it is a bit uncomfortable because we are not doing the "toxic dance" that we have been used to for so long. 

That sounds weird to say... .but it is true. 

My hope is that as the new patterns take hold that they also become more "comfortable"... .over time.  They certainly are more effective.

[MaroonLiquid]

How long have you been on a break, and what has been your experience if you don't mind me asking... .