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How to communicate after a contentious divorce... Following a contentious divorce and custody battle, there are often high emotion and tensions between the parents. Research shows that constant and chronic conflict between the parents negatively impacts the children. The children sense their parents anxiety in their voice, their body language and their parents behavior. Here are some suggestions from Dean Stacer on how to avoid conflict.
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Author Topic: Her birthday tomorrow and an update on how my stuff is going.  (Read 812 times)
formflier
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« on: July 23, 2014, 07:42:44 PM »



Spending time looking back and my first post (below) has really helped me put my experience in perspective:

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=222323.msg12411875#msg12411875

In typical me style... .here comes a stream of consciousness about various subjects/statuses and hopefully you guys can ask questions and point out areas I may need to think through.

DSS case:  Being discharged with no action taken... no neglect.  They strongly recommend we stay in family counseling and MC.  uBPDw seems agreeable to that.  I took the DSS report road because it was less "visible" that going ex-parte in front of a judge.  That part worked.  I had no idea the fear dynamic from my kids would come out and I would be asked to leave house.  That was frustrating... .  The entire process shined a light on several problems in my house... .not all with uBPDw... .and got change going. 

Treatment When uBPDw was backed against corner and had to go to counseling and get pysch evals.  So... .she was not "ordered" to go... .but with all the light shining it would have looked weird for her to back out again.  She went.  My impression is that after a couple sessions she realized some good insight... .and then was ok with it.

That ultimately produced some willingness for her to change in MC... .allowing me decision making and awareness of decisions about kids... .even though I was not in house.  This was huge for me... .and I felt better about changing stuff for her.

Our r/sWe do things as friends.  Maybe a nice hug goodnight.  Our family T guy that did evals told me to lay off while he worked with her.  She is enjoying no pressure from me and I"m enjoying building a r/s with her with no fighting.  I totally want to be back with her as full fledged hubby and wife.  No interest at all at going back to the way it was.  I believe she feels the same.

Honesty  She has brought up again that this is a nuclear thing for her.  She most likely still thinks some of her womanizing theories about me are true.  She said she is going to write out her "die on this hill" issues.  Also indicated that her list of "big issues" is smaller after T and our separation and thinking about things.  I think her plan is to give me this letter or list or something.  Should be interesting.

I need to do some big thinking about how to react the next time my honesty is questioned.  Before I "took it personally"... .it was a go to button for her to push.  My current thinking is to keep her talking more... .so I can try to trace the real issue.  "Help me understand why you think xyz... ."  That is current best plan.  I'm open to other suggestions

The family T guy has focused more on behavior and solutions than labels.  I really wanted the "diagnosis moment" of yes Mr Formflier... .you are correct she has BPD.  Ain't gonna happen.  I'm ok with that now.  I was iffy with that for a while.  The behavior change is better than being right... .or validated.

Me  Some new perspective and treatment work on PTSD has helped a lot.  I'm focusing on trying to be "small" when I communicate to her... .that probably comes across as "normal" to her.  I'm convinced I was overbearing before.  That brought out passive aggressive reactions and then outright dysregulations as she tried to "win".

children  My access has been unlimited.  We do things as a family.  I just don't sleep in the house.  My r/s with kids is better.  Everyone seems more relaxed.  They have been to family T as well. 

My feelings  I'm hopeful... .I'm also a bit nervous.  I think things are heading in right direction.  So far the toxic cycle of over 5 years seems to have been broken. 

Money  I make it and she is responsible for managing it.  She is taking lead in taxes.  If you remember... she grabbed $30k and put in her account.  In T we sorted out that it was totally fear based.  Some of that fear is from not being involved enough or understanding money flow.  If her fingers are in everything... .she will have to learn it.  So... .I turn more into a financial advisor.  I make recommendations and she executes all the transactions.  I get to not fool with taxes any more.  I'll do some advising during this round... .but I'm out.

There is possibility here of her realizing that she would be happier not having grabbed control.  Taxes and money are a pain in the ass.  Or she may actually like it... but I suspect she will figure out why I was happy to pitch it to her.  If she wants to switch it back... .and not planning on making that easy... .or just outright refusing.  Again... something I need help thinking through ahead of time. 

Money perspective:  Luckily for me... .she could screw up a bunch of money stuff... .but I don't see how our family could ever get kicked out of home or not eat... .or any of that. 

This is getting long.  I'll quit for now.  Start lobbing your questions and thoughts my way.



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« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2014, 08:30:58 PM »

I'm impressed with all your hard and sincere work.  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post) And like the idea of saying, "Help me understand . . . ". Maybe you can report here in the future how this particular question/tool works. Just off the bat, it sounds like a winner to me, and I have a hard time seeing how it could be seen as invalidating. (Though I guess any statement can become invalidating if used too mechanically.)

It's especially nice to hear that the kids are liking the changes.
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« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2014, 08:41:53 PM »

And like the idea of saying, "Help me understand . . . ". Maybe you can report here in the future how this particular question/tool works. Just off the bat, it sounds like a winner to me, and I have a hard time seeing how it could be seen as invalidating. (Though I guess any statement can become invalidating if used too mechanically.)

Yeah... .I need to be sincere... .and I think since I'm genuinely trying to understand... .that should be authentic and fairly easy to do.

Maybe a follow on to disengage without fireworks could be "let me think about this for a few minutes... "

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« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2014, 11:21:29 PM »

I'm confused.  Were there psych evals or will you both take them?

Does she acknowledge that she has a problem and needs help?

You say you don't want to go back to how it was before, but it's not clear to me what has changed.  I think without a diagnosis and treatment you can't expect her behavior patterns to be very different, long term.  You might be headed right back to how it was before... .
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« Reply #4 on: July 24, 2014, 01:19:32 AM »

I'm confused.  Were there psych evals or will you both take them?

Does she acknowledge that she has a problem and needs help?

You say you don't want to go back to how it was before, but it's not clear to me what has changed.  I think without a diagnosis and treatment you can't expect her behavior patterns to be very different, long term.  You might be headed right back to how it was before... .

Yes evals were done on both.  Neither of us were given unrestricted access to the others evals but they were used to guide individual and family T.

Paranoia and passive aggressive tendencies were high for her.  PTSD (already known) for me was reconfirmed.

Yes she acknowledges the behaviors and needs help and is changing based on Family Ts input.

While we did not extensively go through past issues to parce out who had fault and how much for each issue... .she will say things like "in such and such situation I would handle that very differently now based on what I have learned about my personality and his (mine)" 

So... the thing that is different now that in past 5 years is the finger... .her finger... .also points at herself as a contributor to a really bad dynamic.

The Family T guy said it was pointless to try to figure out original fault... .but that we both kept reacting and "dancing" with each other over and over.

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« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2014, 01:23:22 AM »

 

Oh... and to avoid that exact problem that got us here... .the spankings with me getting no input.


Corp punishment is still off table.  In our state since there were no marks... .nothing could be done about that.

But... .if kids do something bad today... .nothing "happens" to them until tomorrow.

Basically taking the "immediacy" of the punishment out of the equation.

My impression is that with the pressure relief coming off the kids there have been lots less discipline issues to deal with.
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« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2014, 12:16:12 PM »

Maybe I'm not remembering clearly.

Were there false accusations and threats at some point?

Is she still saying stuff that isn't true?
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« Reply #7 on: July 24, 2014, 02:18:33 PM »

Maybe I'm not remembering clearly.

Were there false accusations and threats at some point?

Is she still saying stuff that isn't true?

Yeah... .whacky theories about money and my role with women that are renters... .and women that are in various other places.

It's been a couple months since any new whacky theories have come out. 

Her financial concerns are more vague... .but the action plan in place is that she is will have her fingers touching all of it.  I'm more of an advisor. 

So... .in the past... .something financially would concern her and she would say you did xyz with money.  There was probably a hint of truth to z... .and x&y were fear based or paranoia.  However... .if she had been the one to do it and talk to CPA, write the checks... etc etc... .after she had gotten advice from me... .then she would know exactly what happened... .before the fear came about.

Not sure if I still explained that right.

So... .when she was dysregulated... .or on the way to that... .you can't explain anything to her.  Showing a financial statement is no good while she is wound up.

Threats:  Yeah... .those have been around for years... .none since I moved out.

And there has been ownership of some of them... .on many things she now admits that "based on what I know about my personality and how that fits with yours... .I handled things badly... .and would do it differently if I could do it over".  Not an exact quote... .I can't remember it exactly... .but that has been said several times in and out of T and MC.

MC and Family T both say that any strategy on my part to "make her own" all the whacky theories... .will lead to a divorce and bitterness.

So... the most recent ones were discussed/owned/dealt with... .and the rest fade into history.

And... most interesting for me is that MC and Family T were much less interested in the content of the communication between us... .than the process.  I was "big" and made her feel "small"... .she does Passive Aggressive response... .I get bigger... .she does more... .etc etc etc... until full fledged dysregulation or some incident.

Several times we were both told... .that we weren't listening to each other.  We only cared about the message we were sending.

So... no one was declared "at fault" for these arguments... .we both owned behavior and have been trying to change the dynamic.  Oddly enough... .I'm trying to get smaller... .she is trying to get bigger... sooner... .so that she doesn't get in situation where she feels she needs to lash out.

Keep asking questions... .poking at the situation.  While I don't say its the perfect solution... .there is no denying our r/s is very different.

I will have to monitor the finance thing... .but she is capable of doing it... .and so far seems to be.

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« Reply #8 on: July 24, 2014, 02:30:43 PM »

Well I'm concerned - I'm not a professional in this field, and I could be projecting my own experience onto yours - maybe I'm off base... .

I view accusations, threats, and big differences between perception and reality, as big problems, and they are caused by something - call it BPD, or whatever - something inside her, not something you can control.

Your way of dealing with her might have added to the problem, or "triggered" some of her behavior, and I think you are right to learn about that, and do what you can do to help.  But someone who is more-or-less mentally healthy does not make false accusations - period.  Or threats.  Or experience big differences between perception and reality.

And you walking on eggshells - avoiding triggers that you know about (which probably means you will discover more and more things that will trigger her... .) - will not fix the underlying problem, whatever it is.  It will just make you take on more responsibility for her behavior.  Whatever she does or says, it will be your fault, because something you did or didn't do "triggered" her, or was "too big", or whatever.

My view is, find out what the underlying problem is - what is inside her that is causing her to behave in destructive and irrational ways - and the best way it can be treated, and let her get that treatment.  If that is happening, she will at some point take ownership for all of her behavior - she might not like to talk about the distant past, and that is understandable, but owning your own behavior and looking at your own problems honestly is an important part of mental health, for all of us.

If she is not willing to take responsibility for what she did, and work on herself, to make sure she doesn't do that stuff anymore - not to be perfect - none of us are - but to take those very destructive behaviors completely out of her vocabulaty - if she is not willing or able to do that, then by being around her - without a non-family adult third party present all the time - you are taking a risk.

Most marriage counselors are able to help most of their client couples by focusing on communication, and on the future, and avoiding arguments about the past, and who was "at fault" for stuff that happened, that you both had a role in.  I understand that.

But when it's not just arguments, but threats and accusations, I think that's different.  An adult who is reasonably healthy will not accuse someone else of something he didn't do, no matter how tired she may be, or how "big" his communication style is, or how she might be "triggered".  A more-or-less healthy person will not make threats, or claim that things aren't how they really are, no matter how "big" or "small" someone else's communication style might be.

If your future depends on figuring out how big or small you should be, or identifying and understanding all her triggers - and assuming there aren't more and more of them you don't know about yet - then you may be embarking on a lifetime project that will never go well.

I wonder if any of the professionals involved actually have any experience with people like your wife?  Or are they dealing with her the way they deal with all their clients - which works well most of the time I'm sure - and assuming that it will work well with her too?
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« Reply #9 on: July 24, 2014, 02:53:07 PM »

I could be completely wrong too, but I haven't been getting the impression that formflier believes his wife is reasonably healthy or that she will be able to quit accusing him of crazy things.

I think that's why he went directly to leaders in his workplace and his church, and contacted the child service agency and met with his accountant. And, most significantly, why he is working with mental health professionals.

I am in awe of the risk reduction strategies he has employed--with the great advice from guys like Matt--and the way he's pretty much taken away the power of his wife's mental illness to land him in jail or other unpleasant places.

I think he has moved the ball forward by a lot.
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« Reply #10 on: July 24, 2014, 03:23:33 PM »

I could be completely wrong too, but I haven't been getting the impression that formflier believes his wife is reasonably healthy or that she will be able to quit accusing him of crazy things.

I think that's why he went directly to leaders in his workplace and his church, and contacted the child service agency and met with his accountant. And, most significantly, why he is working with mental health professionals.

I am in awe of the risk reduction strategies he has employed--with the great advice from guys like Matt--and the way he's pretty much taken away the power of his wife's mental illness to land him in jail or other unpleasant places.

I think he has moved the ball forward by a lot.

Yeah, I agree completely.

That's why I was surprised by the post at the start of this thread.  It sounds to me like trying to make a relationship work, while that underlying problem isn't being dealt with.
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« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2014, 03:43:09 PM »

Matt, I think most of you knowledgeable husbands who've posted in support of formflier here have expressed reservations about the odds of a healthy relationship emerging to replace the old, damaged one. (At least that's how I've read it.)

I have a terrible, dreadful "respect" for clinical paranoia and don't believe it goes away. I believe today's antipsychotic drugs can be tough on a person's general health and well-being and don't really solve the underlying problem. Though it seems they can be necessary in some cases.

What do you think, formflier? I hope you're not floating too much on a "pink cloud" of relief just now, thinking that things are going to be very different.

I guess I've thought that you do know your wife is mentally ill, but that you do want to keep the family together and you believe you have the strength and support to do it.

One thing really intrigues me about your situation. There are ten people in your nuclear family. I wonder if that can't be harnessed as a force for mutual support among all the family members. (I mean, assuming that the kids receive the validation and counsel they need not to be afraid of their mother or emotionally damaged by her fears and accusations.)
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« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2014, 04:09:16 PM »

Matt, I think most of you knowledgeable husbands who've posted in support of formflier here have expressed reservations about the odds of a healthy relationship emerging to replace the old, damaged one. (At least that's how I've read it.)

Yeah, I think you're reading it right!
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« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2014, 04:13:07 PM »

I could be completely wrong too, but I haven't been getting the impression that formflier believes his wife is reasonably healthy or that she will be able to quit accusing him of crazy things.

I think that's why he went directly to leaders in his workplace and his church, and contacted the child service agency and met with his accountant. And, most significantly, why he is working with mental health professionals.

I am in awe of the risk reduction strategies he has employed--with the great advice from guys like Matt--and the way he's pretty much taken away the power of his wife's mental illness to land him in jail or other unpleasant places.

I think he has moved the ball forward by a lot.

Yeah, I agree completely.

That's why I was surprised by the post at the start of this thread.  It sounds to me like trying to make a relationship work, while that underlying problem isn't being dealt with.

A bit out of time to do a big response.

There are a number of underlying problems, PA, paranoia that she is doing sessions with the family T on an individual basis with.  Same guy I am seeing individually about PTSD.  He is also meeting with our kids.

We have occasional joint meetings with Family T guy about certain issues... .  Finances being the last big one. 

We still attend separate MC.

So... do I believe she is totally fixed... .no... .  But... .the pattern of the last 5 years of promising to deal with it or get an eval and skipping out has ended. 

Yes trying to make r/s work... .but not in rush to get back under same roof.  I want to... .but I'm not "pushing" for that. 

When I said Family T guy asked me to "lay off"... .that means no romantic overtures... pressure for things.  We need to focus on being able to operate as a family unit and turn the temp down. 

So... .behaviors that my wife has changed and made a dramatic change.  She is taking lead in finances... .I am more of an advisor.  But... .she is the one "chasing" me down to ask questions and clarify things.

I had been pushed out of the way for decision making for kids... .while I was still in house.  I'm back to where I should be if I was in house... .but I'm not there. 

We discuss schedules, dr appts, all sorts of things and then decide.  Versus previous when she would decide and I was lucky to be informed.

My big focus is on r/s with all kids.  Each day I spend one on one time with several of them.  Weekends I knock out all.  Just to let them talk and make sure the the r/s between me and each kid is solid. 

No date has been determined to say we must get back together by this date.  She is coming up with some thoughts she says she is putting in writing... that we need to discuss before we can move forward with reconcile.  My take is this is from her counseling... .that she need to think through things... .make wise decisions... .and possibly be held to them because in writing.

This got a little longer than I wanted... .I'll try to come back later and go through more points and questions.

I'm not at all saying I'm out of the woods and all fixed. 

And the response I got on here... .is really what I was hoping for... .I don't think I explained some stuff clearly... .but it's been a bit since I've posted much about my situation.

Soo... keep it coming.


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« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2014, 04:16:03 PM »

Good discussion, and I'll look forward to hearing more from you Formflier.
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« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2014, 04:20:15 PM »

One thing really intrigues me about your situation. There are ten people in your nuclear family. I wonder if that can't be harnessed as a force for mutual support among all the family members. (I mean, assuming that the kids receive the validation and counsel they need not to be afraid of their mother or emotionally damaged by her fears and accusations.)

I keep saying I gotta go!   Smiling (click to insert in post)  and I do.

Quickly... .part of the family counseling is to clarify everyones roles and to clearly establish what is normal.

So that when "not normal" happens... .all in family are onboard... .except for probably the person that is doing something odd.

This goes both ways... .me for PTSD... .her for passive aggressive... .paranoia... .etc etc

Now... .at this point I'm speculating a bit... .but I think the plan is to get the family close to "normal" (from family T point of view)... .put them back together... .and then when/if abnormal rears it's head... .it's jumped on quickly on family and individual basis.

Gotta go... more later.

Keep comments and concerns coming. 

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« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2014, 04:20:52 PM »

Good discussion, and I'll look forward to hearing more from you Formflier.

Same here... .very helpful to focus my posts... .and "check my six"

Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #17 on: July 25, 2014, 09:58:12 PM »

Matt, I think most of you knowledgeable husbands who've posted in support of formflier here have expressed reservations about the odds of a healthy relationship emerging to replace the old, damaged one. (At least that's how I've read it.)

Yeah, I think you're reading it right!

OK... I'm back to work through some of these.

This may be true... .that a healthy relationship may not emerge.

I think it is almost a certainty that a "less toxic" or "more healthy" r/s will emerge. 

So... while that is good... .I also have to do some thinking about what is enough.

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« Reply #18 on: July 25, 2014, 10:24:25 PM »

I guess I was thinking that "who cares" now if mrs. formflier continues to make odd statements to others in the community, as most people who matter to the family will have a bit of a heads-up that these statements are more fancy than fact.

But what about the children? It seems that something has scared at least some of them. My guess was that it probably had something to do with those odd accusations concerning Dad, which it seems their mom did indeed share with them. If that's the case, what will happen going forward? Will they just have other adults in their life telling them that Dad doesn't really have another family? Will Mom accept the fact that others are challenging her statements to the kids?

I don't have a clue what I would do if I had children and had to deal with this issue.
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« Reply #19 on: July 25, 2014, 10:28:54 PM »

Well I'm concerned - I'm not a professional in this field, and I could be projecting my own experience onto yours - maybe I'm off base... .

No worries... .the point of view... .projection or not... .is good to sharpen my focus and make sure that I've not missed something.  Also... .if I'm writing stuff and it doesn't come across ok or people get a different idea about what I have written... .then I need to examine my thought and my writing and see if both are clear and I'm expressing what I really think. 

I view accusations, threats, and big differences between perception and reality, as big problems, and they are caused by something - call it BPD, or whatever - something inside her, not something you can control.

Agreed... .and the Family T guy said so as well.  That lots of this is inside her.  Said same thing to me... that there was stuff in me... .although mine is a bit more straightforward with PTSD. 

So... since things were such a mess with it unclear who was triggering who... .sort of a who started it game... .we are trying to get back to a functioning level.  My personal goal is to be at a place where if we get back together and she dysregulates... .it's 100% obvious that I was not a trigger.  Basically make sure the light is shining on her.

Your way of dealing with her might have added to the problem, or "triggered" some of her behavior, and I think you are right to learn about that, and do what you can do to help.  But someone who is more-or-less mentally healthy does not make false accusations - period.  Or threats.  Or experience big differences between perception and reality.

Totally agree and the false accusations/threats are big lines in the sand for me.  I feel now that I can defuse them and not react.  But I don't see me diffusing them and forgetting.  If those come back they will be brought up to the T for questions and work.  No "ooppss"... I accidentally thought he might be having and affair."

I obviously hope that this doesn't happen... .but I also can't go around "ready" for it and in a "defensive posture".  That's one of the things that the T has been working on me with.  I instantly go defensive at the hint of an odd question.  It builds from there.


And you walking on eggshells - avoiding triggers that you know about (which probably means you will discover more and more things that will trigger her... .) - will not fix the underlying problem, whatever it is.  It will just make you take on more responsibility for her behavior.  Whatever she does or says, it will be your fault, because something you did or didn't do "triggered" her, or was "too big", or whatever.

This is something we really haven't covered... .but neither of us "causes" the other to do things.  Well... .maybe we covered it in a roundabout way.  In joint session with family T she did say that it was her fear that led her to move $$... .that it was not her actions.  So... .where in previous sessions there were accusations... .she was now talking about her feelings.  And interestingly wasn't saying anyone "caused" those feelings.[/quote]
My view is, find out what the underlying problem is - what is inside her that is causing her to behave in destructive and irrational ways - and the best way it can be treated, and let her get that treatment.  If that is happening, she will at some point take ownership for all of her behavior - she might not like to talk about the distant past, and that is understandable, but owning your own behavior and looking at your own problems honestly is an important part of mental health, for all of us.

Yeah... this is where I am a bit disappointed.  My the T did lots of evals... .he really focused more on the behavior than on listing diagnosis after diagnosis.  And with her there were underlying problems.  More paranoia than BPD.  Lots of PA.  He has been working with her on those and she is owning some of that behavior. 

If she is not willing to take responsibility for what she did, and work on herself, to make sure she doesn't do that stuff anymore - not to be perfect - none of us are - but to take those very destructive behaviors completely out of her vocabulaty - if she is not willing or able to do that, then by being around her - without a non-family adult third party present all the time - you are taking a risk.

So... .there was so much craziness... impossible to list out everything she needs to own.  But she owned a number of things...   A few were in context of I was wrong.  Most were I should have handled that better... .or would handle it differently based on what I know now about our personalities and issues.

Most marriage counselors are able to help most of their client couples by focusing on communication, and on the future, and avoiding arguments about the past, and who was "at fault" for stuff that happened, that you both had a role in.  I understand that.

But when it's not just arguments, but threats and accusations, I think that's different.  An adult who is reasonably healthy will not accuse someone else of something he didn't do, no matter how tired she may be, or how "big" his communication style is, or how she might be "triggered".  A more-or-less healthy person will not make threats, or claim that things aren't how they really are, no matter how "big" or "small" someone else's communication style might be.

Agreed.  And between her working on her issues... .so hopefully less... .or no threats happen.  And me making sure that if a vague threat pops out... .I don't "crush it" and get "big"... .but turn it back gently with a "help me understand what you are saying"... .and some validation... .

Maybe the incidence of this gets further and further apart. 

I think I'm better off thinking this way rather than declaring it fixed and being blindsided when she does something odd.

If your future depends on figuring out how big or small you should be, or identifying and understanding all her triggers - and assuming there aren't more and more of them you don't know about yet - then you may be embarking on a lifetime project that will never go well.

Could be.  But she is identifying and changing things that get me worked up as well.  Hopefully we both stick to the major issues for asking each other to change.

I wonder if any of the professionals involved actually have any experience with people like your wife?  Or are they dealing with her the way they deal with all their clients - which works well most of the time I'm sure - and assuming that it will work well with her too?

I think they have plenty of experience.  Family T guy is 75 years old.  PhD type.  He seems confident but not cocky.  He has had plenty of experience with BPD... I did ask about that. 

Let me know if I didn't respond to anything.

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« Reply #20 on: July 25, 2014, 10:32:41 PM »

I guess I was thinking that "who cares" now if mrs. formflier continues to make odd statements to others in the community, as most people who matter to the family will have a bit of a heads-up that these statements are more fancy than fact.

But what about the children? It seems that something has scared at least some of them. My guess was that it probably had something to do with those odd accusations concerning Dad, which it seems their mom did indeed share with them. If that's the case, what will happen going forward? Will they just have other adults in their life telling them that Dad doesn't really have another family? Will Mom accept the fact that others are challenging her statements to the kids?

I don't have a clue what I would do if I had children and had to deal with this issue.

Yeah... both wife and I have focused on what's best for kids... and are saying that for future.  So... reduction in conflict is number 1 goal.  That has to go first before healing can really go forward. 

And it has gone away during this separation.

I do need to get clarity from family t guy about exactly what should the kids do if something whacky is said to them.



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« Reply #21 on: July 25, 2014, 10:36:58 PM »



The common framework that the Family T guy has us focusing on should help change thinking and reduce conflict.

Book called four agreements.

1.  Be impeccable to you word.  (if you are following this... whacky stuff shouldn't come out)

2.  Don't take anything personally.  (This has been my big eye opener)... I don't tell fibs... .so when someone says I do... .I take it personally

3.  Don't make assumptions.  (no whacky theories without proof)

4.  Always do your best.


Need to check with with Family T guy about how or if these should be brought up in future blow ups. 

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« Reply #22 on: July 25, 2014, 10:45:33 PM »

Well, again, I'm not a professional in this field (or any related field), so I only perceive these issues based on my own experience, and others here, and what I've read... .

I just don't understand the method being used here.  I haven't heard of successful treatment of someone with a personality disorder or another pscyhological disorder - or some combination of disorders - by this method.  And I'm concerned that you are being sucked into a method where blatantly dysfunctional and harmful behavior is wall-papered over and excused as some communication problem between the parties, rather than as the result of a problem inside the person whose behavior is a problem.

I admire that you are owning your own behavior, and there's a name for the cause - or at least one cause - and you are learning about that and working on it.  A good example for all of us;  I think it's safe to say that nobody on this forum doesn't have something we need to work on.

It just doesn't sound like the same thing is happening with your wife, and unless there is a clear diagnosis, and individual treatment based on a proven model - I don't care how old somebody is or how much experience they have, if they are using a treatment model that hasn't been proven successful, it's probably not going to work.

Just as a thought-experiment, I wonder what would happen if your therapist was asked to cite any published research supporting the method he is using... .?

(I've read "The Four Agreements", and I like it a lot, but it's a short, easy-to-read book of pop philosophy.  It's not a psychology book or a basis for treating any psychological disorder.  It's like taking a graduate course in African history and being told that the text is "The Lion King".)
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« Reply #23 on: July 25, 2014, 10:59:11 PM »

Oh, dear.

I thought your therapist was being diplomatic, and deferent to your wife's mental illness as a purely initial phase. This is beginning to sound like something else entirely. Like leaving you (the healthy parent) without guidance, where there is a family in real need.

I would second everything Matt has just written.

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« Reply #24 on: July 25, 2014, 11:08:58 PM »

Well, again, I'm not a professional in this field (or any related field), so I only perceive these issues based on my own experience, and others here, and what I've read... .

I just don't understand the method being used here.  I haven't heard of successful treatment of someone with a personality disorder or another pscyhological disorder - or some combination of disorders - by this method.  And I'm concerned that you are being sucked into a method where blatantly dysfunctional and harmful behavior is wall-papered over and excused as some communication problem between the parties, rather than as the result of a problem inside the person whose behavior is a problem.

I admire that you are owning your own behavior, and there's a name for the cause - or at least one cause - and you are learning about that and working on it.  A good example for all of us;  I think it's safe to say that nobody on this forum doesn't have something we need to work on.

It just doesn't sound like the same thing is happening with your wife, and unless there is a clear diagnosis, and individual treatment based on a proven model - I don't care how old somebody is or how much experience they have, if they are using a treatment model that hasn't been proven successful, it's probably not going to work.

Just as a thought-experiment, I wonder what would happen if your therapist was asked to cite any published research supporting the method he is using... .?

(I've read "The Four Agreements", and I like it a lot, but it's a short, easy-to-read book of pop philosophy.  It's not a psychology book or a basis for treating any psychological disorder.  It's like taking a graduate course in African history and being told that the text is "The Lion King".)

I agree on the book... .but... .if you actually hold to those... .it's pretty hard to falsely accuse someone and do the other whacky and unpleasant stuff.

In an odd way it crystallized for each of us what we were lacking.

I took things personally.

She made assumptions.  

I suppose the real test is when/if she displays her next odd behavior (broad term).  

And I don't exactly know what they talk about in individual sessions.  But so far I like the results I see.  Not perfect but better.



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« Reply #25 on: July 25, 2014, 11:16:55 PM »

Oh, dear.

I thought your therapist was being diplomatic, and deferent to your wife's mental illness as a purely initial phase. This is beginning to sound like something else entirely. Like leaving you (the healthy parent) without guidance, where there is a family in real need.

I would second everything Matt has just written.

Hmm... .

So... .neither of us has been declared a healthy parent.

She claimed to be the healthy parent and now totally understands and admits she is not and needs to be in therapy to change the way she behaves... .which is a result of the way she thinks and perceives the world.  And she now admits many of her perceptions were wrong.  And that many of her behaviors were not helpful/damaging... .etc

This is a new phase for her that hasn't happened in 5 years.

I suppose I shouldn't have said that book was basis of his stuff.  More like a common thing we could read and give reactions to.

Here... read this and it was sort of homework. 

Hmmm... .

Somehow I think I've given off the vibe... .or that you've read that I've made most of the changes and wife really hasn't done much... .or wife believes she is ok or something.



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« Reply #26 on: July 25, 2014, 11:22:56 PM »

(I've read "The Four Agreements", and I like it a lot, but it's a short, easy-to-read book of pop philosophy.  It's not a psychology book or a basis for treating any psychological disorder.  It's like taking a graduate course in African history and being told that the text is "The Lion King".)

I agree on the book... .but... .if you actually hold to those... .it's pretty hard to falsely accuse someone and do the other whacky and unpleasant stuff.

Yes, if you hold to those four agreements, things will be better for everyone.

But what if someone can't hold to those?

What if someone has a medical disorder that prevents her from being able to act right, consistently, under certain conditions?

That's what personality disorders and other psych disorders are:  medical conditions which prevent people from being able to think reasonably and act reasonably in certain situations.

And there are proven methods for diagnosing and treating BPD and other disorders.  If those methods are used - and the biggest problem with that is that many people who have psych disorders don't choose to get treatment - but if the person with the problem chooses to get treatment, and is able to get the right kind, and stays with it long enough - years - then the chance of success is high.  One study a year or two back, by a group affiliated with Harvard Medical, showed that more than 80% of people with BPD who stayed with the recommended treatment for at least five years showed "remission of major symptoms" - not a cure but close enough.  People who don't get the right kind of treatment don't get better.  And I've never heard of couples therapy being successful in treating someone who has a psych disorder.

You refer to individual sessions;  maybe something good is going on there, and maybe the improvements you see are good signs for the future.  I hope so!

And I think I understand about "The Four Agreements" - not a basis for treatment but a good focus for discussion in couples therapy.  As I say, I think it's a great book and could help anyone in lots of ways.  I've just seen couples therapists wanting to focus on communication - always worth some work - and not willing to take up issues like psych disorders that can absolutely prevent someone from being capable of having a healthy relationship... .
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« Reply #27 on: July 25, 2014, 11:28:34 PM »

 

And I have gotten plenty of guidance that matches most of what I've read here about what to do when/if she does stuff.

Same thing on here part.  If I'm anxious... .or if she surprises me with things. 

She shouldn't "take them personally'... .because it's not about her... .it's about PTSD and surprise and loss of control is no good for that.

When that lightbulb popped on for her... .she changed the way she dealt with me in regards to kids and decision making.  Which really relaxed me... .which relaxed her... .etc etc.

Back to the T... .he announced to all of us that his goal was to make the family system work.  Fairly quickly said that the breakdown was not with kids... but with parents. 

He needed to understand what each parent brought to table and work to change that individually (as much as possible).

He also needed to understand how we interact as a family, and since he understands each of us individually... .has an idea of what will and won't work... strengths and weaknesses of both.  How we can reduce conflict so the family can start operating again.  And then while conflict is reduced each of us can individually heal and make progress.

Trying to remember the times when he explained how this was going to work.  Which sort of goes to his "treatment method".

Hmm... .still somehow think we are not connecting.

I
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« Reply #28 on: July 25, 2014, 11:31:50 PM »

I'm grateful you're getting Matt's input at this time, and I think later you will be in a position to go back and re-read his observations with a different understanding, should things not go as well as you hope.

I worry that you believe your wife is making "false accusations," and that she can voluntarily stop doing that.

I hope God will forgive those of us who have been married to mentally ill people for being a bit snarky at times, but the "Lion King" reference just really reminds me of some of the tools we are given to work with at times.  Laugh out loud (click to insert in post) What I was thinking was that, if I were to counsel from the "Alice in Wonderland" school of therapy, I'd probably advise you to get "bigger" rather than "smaller." Because I wonder if your kids aren't a bit traumatized at how "big" your wife has actually been in the family. (The scary view of the world she has likely presented to them.)

(ETA: Cross-posted with Matt.)

And if your wife suddenly views the world completely differently, then I'll eat my cat.

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« Reply #29 on: July 25, 2014, 11:42:55 PM »

(I've read "The Four Agreements", and I like it a lot, but it's a short, easy-to-read book of pop philosophy.  It's not a psychology book or a basis for treating any psychological disorder.  It's like taking a graduate course in African history and being told that the text is "The Lion King".)

I agree on the book... .but... .if you actually hold to those... .it's pretty hard to falsely accuse someone and do the other whacky and unpleasant stuff.

Yes, if you hold to those four agreements, things will be better for everyone.

But what if someone can't hold to those?

What if someone has a medical disorder that prevents her from being able to act right, consistently, under certain conditions?

That's what personality disorders and other psych disorders are:  medical conditions which prevent people from being able to think reasonably and act reasonably in certain situations.

And there are proven methods for diagnosing and treating BPD and other disorders.  If those methods are used - and the biggest problem with that is that many people who have psych disorders don't choose to get treatment - but if the person with the problem chooses to get treatment, and is able to get the right kind, and stays with it long enough - years - then the chance of success is high.  One study a year or two back, by a group affiliated with Harvard Medical, showed that more than 80% of people with BPD who stayed with the recommended treatment for at least five years showed "remission of major symptoms" - not a cure but close enough.  People who don't get the right kind of treatment don't get better.  And I've never heard of couples therapy being successful in treating someone who has a psych disorder.

You refer to individual sessions;  maybe something good is going on there, and maybe the improvements you see are good signs for the future.  I hope so!

And I think I understand about "The Four Agreements" - not a basis for treatment but a good focus for discussion in couples therapy.  As I say, I think it's a great book and could help anyone in lots of ways.  I've just seen couples therapists wanting to focus on communication - always worth some work - and not willing to take up issues like psych disorders that can absolutely prevent someone from being capable of having a healthy relationship... .

Yeah... .I need to clarify MC and Family T.

So... we have been to MC many, many times and are still going.

The last round of MC that we are still attending is through the VA.  During that time my wife wanted to get some therapy for the kids and found the family T guy.  About halfway in first session he took us (me and wife) to room and said that the family problem was from whatever is going on with us. 

He then has mainly done individual sessions with each of us.  Maybe only two joint sessions in a few months and those were topical.  Money and kids. 

However... .in each individual session we would briefly mention the wife (or hubby in her case) and interactions with kids.  He would then give "homework" on what each of us should be doing and how to behave with kids and each other as mom and dad.

He was adjusting that based on what he saw individually.

Back to MC:

I did think about stopping that.  But she has always been the one to walk away.  And we started to see progress there.  Family t and MC T do talk some.  We said it was ok so they don't step on toes... .too much.

MC we talk about communication, empathy, compromise, feelings.

It was also a time for us to wrangle with issues and have a referee present.  Early on it was needed really bad... .last couple MC sessions it wasn't.

So is there some overlap... .yeah we do talk about money some in both.

I also don't pester my wife about what she did/said in T.  She doesn't about me.  Sometimes Family T asks us to talk to the other about stuff... but that is not often.

So... if I gave off the vibe that she was not doing much individual... .I shouldn't have given that off. 

I'm a guy that likes to "know"... .but I also didn't appreciate in the past my wife being nosey about what I had done in Therapy.  Family T guy also counseled both of us to quit pointing fingers at the other... .focus on ourselves and our issues... .or words to that effect.

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