Her birthday tomorrow and an update on how my stuff is going.

[VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?"]

I'm grateful you're getting Matt's input at this time, and I think later you will be in a position to go back and re-read his observations with a different understanding, should things not go as well as you hope.

this is entirely possible that this could happen.  I hope not... .but... .I'm a realist.  And if we get back together in same house and she quits therapy or quits owning behavior... .and somehow it's all my fault... .that would be bad.  If she claims its my fault but keeps going to therapy and gets corrected... .or owns behavior.  Maybe a victory.

I worry that you believe your wife is making "false accusations," and that she can voluntarily stop doing that.

Agreed... .not to defend her too much.  But those usually came under times of real or perceived stress.  And were handled horribly by me.  Hence the effort to reduce the temp.  Work on her and work on me. 

Hmm yeah... about voluntarily stop that.  She totally owns that she did wrong things before she went to individual T.  And can identify things she is working on now.  Not really sure if that is voluntary... .but certainly is assisted.

I hope God will forgive those of us who have been married to mentally ill people for being a bit snarky at times, but the "Lion King" reference just really reminds me of some of the tools we are given to work with at times.   What I was thinking was that, if I were to counsel from the "Alice in Wonderland" school of therapy, I'd probably advise you to get "bigger" rather than "smaller." Because I wonder if your kids aren't a bit traumatized at how "big" your wife has actually been in the family. (The scary view of the world she has likely presented to them.)

The big/small thing should be viewed of in context of her PA behavior.  Should she do that.  No.  Did I cause it... .sort of... .  I definitely didn't help it... .  She needs to get "bigger" so she doesn't resort to PA behavior... which is small (cowardly).  She needs to be more clear and direct.  She needs to talk more... I need to talk less.

My smallness is really to get me to normal.  I'm a nice guy... .but very direct.  When challenged... every part of may body wants to "win".

And if your wife suddenly views the world completely differently, then I'll eat my cat.

Run kitty! 

Seriously... I don't think she suddenly and completely views differently. 

But I would say she "significantly" views the world differently. 

Hope that makes sense...

[formflier]

I'm grateful you're getting Matt's input at this time, and I think later you will be in a position to go back and re-read his observations with a different understanding, should things not go as well as you hope.

this is entirely possible that this could happen.  I hope not... .but... .I'm a realist.  And if we get back together in same house and she quits therapy or quits owning behavior... .and somehow it's all my fault... .that would be bad.  If she claims its my fault but keeps going to therapy and gets corrected... .or owns behavior.  Maybe a victory.

I worry that you believe your wife is making "false accusations," and that she can voluntarily stop doing that.

Agreed... .not to defend her too much.  But those usually came under times of real or perceived stress.  And were handled horribly by me.  Hence the effort to reduce the temp.  Work on her and work on me. 

Hmm yeah... about voluntarily stop that.  She totally owns that she did wrong things before she went to individual T.  And can identify things she is working on now.  Not really sure if that is voluntary... .but certainly is assisted.

I hope God will forgive those of us who have been married to mentally ill people for being a bit snarky at times, but the "Lion King" reference just really reminds me of some of the tools we are given to work with at times.   What I was thinking was that, if I were to counsel from the "Alice in Wonderland" school of therapy, I'd probably advise you to get "bigger" rather than "smaller." Because I wonder if your kids aren't a bit traumatized at how "big" your wife has actually been in the family. (The scary view of the world she has likely presented to them.)

The big/small thing should be viewed of in context of her PA behavior.  Should she do that.  No.  Did I cause it... .sort of... .  I definitely didn't help it... .  She needs to get "bigger" so she doesn't resort to PA behavior... which is small (cowardly).  She needs to be more clear and direct.  She needs to talk more... I need to talk less.

My smallness is really to get me to normal.  I'm a nice guy... .but very direct.  When challenged... every part of may body wants to "win".

And if your wife suddenly views the world completely differently, then I'll eat my cat.

Run kitty! 

Seriously... I don't think she suddenly and completely views differently. 

But I would say she "significantly" views the world differently. 

Hope that makes sense...

[Matt]

Yeah, you're right - we're not communicating super-perfectly.  But we can fix that... .

My understanding is that someone who does certain very dysfunctional, irrational and harmful things probably has some problem - for the sake of argument let's call a "psychological disorder".  Could be a psychiatric problem or something else - that should be diagnosed using objective means.

If someone has one of those problems, it can be treated, usually successfully, but without the right treatment someone with a problem like that is not capable of handling certain types of situations because her mind does not work right.  If it's BPD, for example, that means there are some serious problems, fairly deep down, that keep her from thinking correctly in certain situations.

Someone like that is not capable of having a healthy relationship, no matter how hard she tries, or how hard you try, or how much excellent coaching you get from an experienced psychologist.  It might seem better, but intimate relationships - a couple, or a parent and child, or any very close relationship - puts stresses on parts of our mind which are damaged - not physical damage presumably, but her ability to process information is affected, probably by some trauma in early life.

Maybe it's not BPD, but whatever it is, something has caused her to behave in ways you have described here, which I think means there is a very serious problem.  It could be a physiological problem, like an accident or a chemical imbalance, but what you have described sounds a lot like what most of us here have dealt with - BPD or something similar.

I was married 12 years, to a woman I had known for several years before that.  While we were married we tried two marriage counselors, both chosen by my wife, so she would buy in to whatever they did.  Both used a method roughly like you are describing, focusing on how we communicated with each other, and that was helpful.  But in time, under stress, and while no other adults were around, my wife went back to her destructive behavior - accusations, threats, blame, etc.

After we separated, my wife called and asked if I would agree to counseling, and I said sure, and encouraged her to find a counselor she felt good about, because I knew that if picked somebody out, she would not pay attention to anything the counselor said.  Again, it was good information about communications, but it did nothing for the underlying problem causing my wife to behave that way at times.  We gave up on that guy.

But then my wife asked if I would go with her to a counselor affiliated with her church, and I said sure again - not my church, but I was OK with that.  This fourth counselor took a different approach:  we all talked together, and then she met with each of us individually, and she told me that she believed my wife had BPD, but that she couldn't diagnose her - that required different credentials.  Her strategy was to get my wife into individual therapy, but not to tell her about BPD or to bother with a formal diagnosis, which might push her away.  She believed that if she could treat my wife, while we continued with couples therapy, that could work.

It didn't, because my wife made it clear that she did not believe she had a problem, and she wasn't interested in exploring how she thinks or how that might be causing her harmful behavior.  I finally accepted that she did not want to change.  Later, during the divorce, we both took the MMPI-2, which confirmed the diagnosis - BPD and some other stuff.  The court ordered her to get psychotherapy, but she refused, and hasn't accepted it yet - several years later.

I don't know if your wife has BPD, but she has some serious problem.  If she has been correctly diagnosed - and I don't know if that is likely without the MMPI-2 or some other objective tool - and if she is getting the treatment she needs, things can get better.  But if that was happening, I think you would know it.  My sense is, your T is trying what all those MC's we saw tried, and I'm not aware of any research which suggests that method will work if one of the parties has an untreated personality disorder.

Hope I'm wrong!

And I'm not suggesting that family therapy or couples therapy are bad ideas or not helpful.  If they seem to be helping they probably are, and in any case you're probably learning useful stuff, and getting some ideas that are helpful to the kids and both parents.

I also understand that therapists don't want to tell one party about what is going on with the other, and they don't want either of you to focus on what the other should do differently, they want you to work on yourself - always a good idea.

It may be hard to find a way to ask about your wife's diagnosis and treatment.  Maybe it will come out, from your wife or from the T.  If it was me, I'd probably just come out and ask him, but maybe a little patience would be better.

In time, I think the key issue will be whether she has been diagnosed correctly and whether she is getting and accepting the type of treatment most likely to help her long-term.  If she is, everything will probably get better and better.  If she isn't, you are probably trying to make something work that can't work.

[formflier]

 

I totally get what you are saying...

Certainly if the bad stuff comes back.  I'm going to be asking the why questions.

I have debated pushing for detailed explanations of exactly what tests, testing... etc etc.

I decided I was more interested in having her continue to go to therapy than poking around for details which would be scary for her.

The T and she now says there are fears... .irrational fears. 

I'm off to bed. 

Will pick this up again tomorrow.

[Grey Kitty]

  FF.

I've missed this thread 'till now.

FF, I'm really encouraged to hear continued good news. Earlier, you weren't sure anything good at all was coming from the MC or FT guys. They seem to be helping.

Your plan of starting by normalizing the co-parenting with your wife sounds excellent. The progress on it sounds great--you are involved again, your wife backed down on corporal punishment.

I think putting off any resumption of intimacy with your wife until this is resolved sounds wise. The "business" of a family of 10 is enough to manage first.

All told... .I've been saying for a long time--what really matters is behavior. If your wife can behave reasonably even though she has irrational fears (or whatever)... .great! If she can't... .keep your focus on today's behavior as much as you can. Have a few boundaries ready and your own tools ready, so you can make things better instead of worse.

And know your ultimate limits. Know when you will find a limit that pushes you to a different strategy, like Matt had to do. (It sounds like his ex was completely unwilling to change any behavior to make things work better)

I hope things keep chugging forward for you!

[formflier]

 FF.

I've missed this thread 'till now.

FF, I'm really encouraged to hear continued good news. Earlier, you weren't sure anything good at all was coming from the MC or FT guys. They seem to be helping.

That is correct!  When the following weeks T appointment was as bad or worse than the one before.  And then I can see a trend where they are getting worse... .or she is contradicting herself... .yeah... .it was going nowhere for a while.  That was a similar pattern to the past 5 years.

Where we went off into uncharted waters was when she showed up at Individual Counseling with no pretense of it being "to help me out... .or to help the r/s... .that it was because she had issues only she could deal with".  Now... a couple of MC sessions in a row she minimized and changed the family T recommendation that she get individual work.  Didn't totally deny it... .but... .huge minimization.  I wasn't in her face about it in MC... .but was clear that i remembered a totally different conversation/session... .and that seemed to be a pattern... .that wife and I remember things really differently.

The MC was gentle but clear that my wife could "benefit greatly"... .from individual work.  The one point I thought it would go south was when my wife started poking back at MC T asking what she had... .what she thought "was wrong with her".  The MC T was gentler that I would have liked (but again... remember I've been told to get "smaller"... .less in your face)... .and said that wasn't her role.  MC T focused on the benefits of individual work and how it could help the MC. 

This is also where DSS helped... .because now we have the only two people in the world that qualify as "counselors" to her saying she needs to be in individual work.  Dss plan says we "comply with our counselors".  I never made a direct threat... .but I would say that phrase.  "I think we need to comply with our counselors treatment recommendations".   

Your plan of starting by normalizing the co-parenting with your wife sounds excellent. The progress on it sounds great--you are involved again, your wife backed down on corporal punishment.

Yes... .neither of us has made claims about the future and corporal punishment.  Other than to say until we and the counselors involved are OK with us doing it... .it won't be done.  Truth be told... .I'm done with it.  I'm not at the point where I want to declare it bad for everyone... .and there probably is a bit of a PTSD... .retired vet thing going on. 

As in I do spend time wondering what violence has accomplished and if there was a better way.  Corp punishment and warfare... probably not something I should be linking in my head... .but I sometimes do.

Anyway... back to punishment.  Children are much better behaved... less need for correction.  Family T guy has put it in my wifes head... .and she now agrees that punishment needs to be delayed a day.  So... .Johnny doesn't do xyz today... .poor Johny... .tomorrow you will face this consequence.  [/quote]

I think putting off any resumption of intimacy with your wife until this is resolved sounds wise. The "business" of a family of 10 is enough to manage first.

There are parts of me that want to rush back into a passionate thing with her.  But for now the fun we can have going to the park and playing with kids outweighs my desire for a big romance.  Lately she has initiated some goodby hugs.  Every once in a while I will do the same.  I'm guessing it's about half the time we are together.  Instead of declaring my love for her... .I will say things like I had a great time today... .looking forward to doing "x" with you guys tomorrow.

We've had occasional dates where I've picked her up... we'll do things... .a movie or whatever... .and then spend an hour or two talking about family, memory... .feelings.  But not so much about romantic ... ."get it on"... feelings with each other.  Family T and MC are both behind this... .and we are both in agreement.

All the conflict had pretty much destroyed trust, friendship, respect... etc... .  I can see that being rebuilt.

All told... .I've been saying for a long time--what really matters is behavior. If your wife can behave reasonably even though she has irrational fears (or whatever)... .great! If she can't... .keep your focus on today's behavior as much as you can. Have a few boundaries ready and your own tools ready, so you can make things better instead of worse.

I still struggle some with wanting retribution for behavior of the past... .but the current benefits help me push that down.  Especially seeing the improvement in family relations. 

Another thing that has been talked about with fears is solutions.  That is where the money thing came from.  The solution for her fear of money problems is to take on more management and understanding... .not to blame me.  Also helps her trust of me... .to see me step up and turn that over without a big fuss.[/quote]

And know your ultimate limits. Know when you will find a limit that pushes you to a different strategy, like Matt had to do. (It sounds like his ex was completely unwilling to change any behavior to make things work better)

Yep... going back on punishment.  Or pushing me out of the punishment and family decision world so I have no power... .that would be nuclear for me.  I probably wouldn't pull a nuke for one incidence.  But if the "policy" had obviously changed... .I would do something to get that power back. 

I do see lots of parallels in Matt's experience and mine.  At my wife's insistence we went to counseling in the context of church several times.  My gut says our goals were so different... .and pastors were a bit unwilling to "be firm"... .  Sounds like Matt went "out in town" a couple times and then in church... and in church that is where BPD was discovered... .or the traits of that.  I was reversed.  My first "out in town" person called out the traits.  She was also very big on cautioning me that traits and diagnosis are worlds apart.  Also said... much like you do... .the diagnosis part for me really shouldn't matter. 

It matters for insurance... .and it matters somewhat for a T making treatment decisions.  But ultimately... the question is why is someone doing x... .if x is harmful and we can get them to stop doing it.  Declare victory and move on.  If they replace that bad behavior with another... .then maybe more of a root cause strategy is ok.

I hope things keep chugging forward for you!

Me too!  And trying to be prepared for the inevitable disappointment... .more in the context of responding or supporting her properly. 

And she has gained some insight and tools to understand that many times anxiety and ptsdish things from me are not about her... .not about some affair I'm embarked on... .but something that I need support and empathy for... .not a whacky theory.

[KateCat]

You really are doing excellent work, formflier.

Is there a Plan B in your mind in the event that your wife does return to former behaviors after the threat of losing you subsides? Let's say one day five months from now she threatens you in one of the ways she has in the past. Do you throw in the towel, or do something else? . . . . Would that be the time to press therapists for a more clinical understanding of what's going on?

[formflier]

You really are doing excellent work, formflier.

Is there a Plan B in your mind in the event that your wife does return to former behaviors after the threat of losing you subsides? Let's say one day five months from now she threatens you in one of the ways she has in the past. Do you throw in the towel, or do something else? . . . . Would that be the time to press therapists for a more clinical understanding of what's going on?

Yeah... .I'm kicking that around.  Plans b & c... and on and on... .all involve me not "reacting"... .trying to be emotionally supportive... .all the while thinking about boundaries.

My hope is that even after/if we get back together in the house that we don't "stop" any kind of T... .but that we just make the visits between them longer. 

So... ."see you in a month" instead of "see you next week".

Also... .now that wife is doing individual therapy... .and says that she is learning a lot from it... .I don't think going back to discuss something would be as scary.

Before there was complete denial... .then short term agreement to go and then excuses why she couldn't. 

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I don't think "handling" weird stuff in the future would be as scare or bad even if all forms of T stopped.

Even better/easier if we were still in T but just going every so often.

As far as pressing therapists... .I'm torn between honoring that my wife is going to T... .and not wanting to treat her the way I was treated in the past... .where I was pestered about what I said... what T said... .etc etc. 

If there comes a time when it might be time to ask to see test results and which tests etc etc... .I'll have to go there.  I would think that time would be more along the lines of legal and separation stuff... .custody and all that... .rather than trying to put a r/s back together.

[formflier]

 

One last thought on my wife and pressing Ts. 

While I don't know exactly what is going on  in there... .I do see results.  More precisely I see changes... .and my guess is that the come from the T sessions and getting her thinking about a different way of thinking.

I'm sure that some of her willingness to change comes from her seeing me change some.

I KNOW that my willingness was tied to seeing actual things change that I wanted... .and that we had fought over... .and over... and over...

The years before that seemed very "lopsided"' to me. 

No way to tell how much of a difference each one made.

But I think the real lesson here is when you are dealing with those with BPD... .BPD traits... .or other "high conflict" personalities. 

MC by itself... .probably not going to work.  I can clearly attest to that... .as can most on this site.

Individual therapy can certainly help... .and is most likely the best route to take.  But that in and of itself may not fix the r/s... .depending on how deeply that r/s has been wounded.

Thoughts? 

My first "non-church" counselor... .same one that told me about BPD traits... .started out our MC by telling us that we each needed to get full physical and mental checkups.  "rule out" problems in each of those areas.

That was first time I had heard such advice.  She explained that she has seen lots of time wasted in MC when 6 months or a year down the road problems are discovered that would "change everything". 

My gut says if that had been followed by both of us... .we could have gotten things better... .much earlier.

[KateCat]

I just hope that your present professionals aren't thinking there's some sort of "down side" to telling you any truths they've uncovered in their testing. I personally was so confused and resistant to facing facts that it took a psychiatrist of my husband's race and specific cultural and linguistic heritage to tell me exactly what was going on. For a lot of us, the belief that "communication issues" are the core problem is a belief that dies hard.

From what you've shared here, I can see no reason for mental health professionals to doubt your ability to handle any truth with good judgment and respect. I guess time and patience will tell you much. Plus boundaries, of course!

[formflier]

I just hope that your present professionals aren't thinking there's some sort of "down side" to telling you any truths they've uncovered in their testing. I personally was so confused and resistant to facing facts that it took a psychiatrist of my husband's race and specific cultural and linguistic heritage to tell me exactly what was going on. For a lot of us, the belief that "communication issues" are the core problem is a belief that dies hard.

From what you've shared here, I can see no reason for mental health professionals to doubt your ability to handle any truth with good judgment and respect. I guess time and patience will tell you much. Plus boundaries, of course!

I know what you mean about communication issues.  I have a degree in communications and most of my military service was spent making sure battlegroups communicated effectively... .and accurately.  Command and control type of thing.

I am a firm believer that a good r/s is not possible without effective communication.  It may not fix it... .but without it... .not gonna happen.

Anyway... .because of my background... .I'm probably an "extremist" on communication issues.  Are you being clear... did you repeat it exactly. 

That matters... .literally life and death... .when declaring things on military nets. 

That same level of intensity has no business in a romantic r/s. 

Then... .throw in someone that says "you've been sleeping with such and such"... .when most likely she is worried that I don't find her attractive... .or I find the other woman more attractive. 

Wow... .then a really bad... bad... .dance begins that went on for years.

I'm confident that dance will never happen again.  Or if it does... .she'll be dancing on the floor by herself.

I also think that I can... with the aid of this site and the Ts that are in our life... .figure out if a new dance is starting... .and nip it in the bud.

[formflier]

  I personally was so confused and resistant to facing facts that it took a psychiatrist of my husband's race and specific cultural and linguistic heritage to tell me exactly what was going on.

Would you mind sharing more details of that "ah haa" moment?  What is was you found and and why you were resistant?

[KateCat]

High-functioning individual with paranoid schizophrenia. The suspicions, accusations, attempts to start lawsuits against employers, etc., were not the result of cultural differences, communication problems, differences between males and females, or other similar things.

A lot of people with paranoia do end up "on the dance floor by themselves," unless others around them have a clear understanding of their diagnoses. And really good boundaries and ways to protect themselves.

Maybe none of this has anything to do with your wife, but the stories you've told surely caught my eye.  

ADDED: I think that particular instance where you said that a woman with a baby was at a nearby table in a restaurant with you and your wife. The baby happened to have the same given name as your wife. . . . From that your wife drew some conclusions about you having an affair and this being your baby. Picturing that scene gave me a chill of familiarity.

[formflier]

High-functioning individual with paranoid schizophrenia. The suspicions, accusations, attempts to start lawsuits against employers, etc., were not the result of cultural differences, communication problems, differences between males and females, or other similar things.

A lot of people with paranoia do end up "on the dance floor by themselves," unless others around them have a clear understanding of their diagnoses. And really good boundaries and ways to protect themselves.

Maybe none of this has anything to do with your wife, but the stories you've told surely caught my eye.  

ADDED: I think that particular instance where you said that a woman with a baby was at a nearby table in a restaurant with you and your wife. The baby happened to have the same given name as your wife. . . . From that your wife drew some conclusions about you having an affair and this being your baby. Picturing that scene gave me a chill of familiarity.

Oh yeah... .I remember that day.  Also... .to catch everyone up. 

During the evaluation process the T had told me that he was thinking more paranoia that BPD.  He acknowledged that some of the traits are the same... .but he was trying to shy me away from the BPD thing.

So... he never really came out and said PPD or something else. 

But as I listened to him describe what he was seeing... .I couldn't argue.  Maybe that was when I should have pressed for an exact name.  But he said he was going to do more evals.

Also... .I did ask if he thought he could help... .and he was confident he could.  So... in that context... .I left it alone and since I was seeing results... .figured best to keep my fingers out of the pie... .so to speak.

Very much like when I asked him if he thought he could help with PTSD... .beyond what I had been doing already... .and he said he could.  And it came true... .

But... .yeah... .that story is one of the all time greats (I know that's an odd way to describe it).

[Matt]

Wow, good discussion.  Usually when we're talking here, lots of other members are reading along but not participating, which is fine, and in this case, I'm sure this discussion is helping other members besides just those of us taking part... .

Couple of thoughts... .

Why would a professional in this field not want to discuss Mrs. Flier's issues with Mr. Flier?  Or maybe not even very openly with Mrs. Flier?  Several reasons... .

First, remember that a therapist is obligated to do what she believes to be in the patient's (Mrs. Flier's) interests.  This is one reason why a marriage counselor usually won't see either party individually - because what's best for Mrs. Flier may not always be what's best for the relationship.

In this case, maybe that's not a problem, but I think it's normal for a therapist treating someone to not talk about that with anyone else.  Two of my kids have been in individual therapy at times - kids under 18 - and the rules are a little different, but even with kids the therapist wants to respect their privacy most of the time.  With adults I think it's very rare for a therapist to talk about her patient with anyone else, even the spouse.  (If you watch "Mad Men", you can see that the rules were different in the 1960s.)

Also, from what our MC told me - the church-based counselor who also saw my wife for individual counseling - most therapists who believe their patient has BPD do not want to tell her that, and may even avoid a formal diagnosis, so they won't have that piece of information to share or not share.

The reason is that - or at least this is widely believed among therapists and other professionals - if an individual is told that she has BPD, or that the therapist believes she may have BPD, it may become less likely that she will accept the kind of treatment she needs.  She is likely to become defensive, and to blame the therapist or someone else - "You're just saying that because my husband told you lies about me!" - and then all trust (or whatever trust the T thought was there) is gone.  Many therapists believe they can be more helpful to the individual - and remember, the therapist's responsibility is to the patient, not the patient's spouse - by slowly building a relationship between the T and the patient, which will ultimately allow the T to accomplish some of the goals of the methods believed to be most effective, like DBT (dialectic behavior therapy).  "I think I can help her if I gradually introduce some DBT methods without ever putting a name on her problem."

Also, patients with BPD may find it much harder to get treatment once that word is attached to them, through a formal diagnosis, or even as notes in the counselor's notebook.  When they seek care from a psychologist, for example, if there is any indication that she may have BPD, many psychologists will not accept her as a patient, because people with BPD can be so difficult - they tend to fight the therapist, make accusations, and even report the therapist to her boss, or file a lawsuit against the therapist.  Many psychologists just won't take new patients who may have BPD, or will only work with one BPD patient at a time, because they find it too disruptive and difficult, and the results usually aren't good.  (Our MC told me there's a joke among her colleagues:  "Well it's almost three o'clock.  Time to spend an hour being abused by my BPD patient!"

So our MC told me she would not recommend a formal diagnosis, and would not mention "BPD" to my wife, and she asked me to commit not to mention it to her either.  (I kept that commitment until we ended MC and went into the legal process, when I decided it was in my kids' interest to get all the relevant information out on the table.)

I'm not saying I agree with any of this - I'm in another field, where reality is reality and it does nobody any good to hide information and pretend things are different than they really are.  But I think many, maybe most, psychologists and therapists agree with this approach - ":)on't call it BPD, just look for opportunities to apply the principles of effective treatment, like DBT, and see if you can help the individual with the problem."

One more comment - "Should I confront caregivers to find out what exactly the problem is and what is the recommended treatment?" - clearly my bias is "Yes", but it may be good to choose your timing carefully.  If your wife is getting the help she needs, and if she is accepting it, it will continue long-term - at least several years of steady individual work - and you will continue to see progress, though there may be relapses from time to time - we're all human and this will be a very hard process for her.

Along the way, she should become much more open about everything - what she is learning, what she finds difficult, etc. - that should happen as the result of effective treatment.  I don't know if there are any benchmarks or timelines you should look for, like the developmental steps for a small child, but I think you should see more and more honesty and openness, and less defensiveness and secrecy.  So in time you should feel that you can ask your wife directly about what she has learned - whether her problem has a name, what is the recommended treatment, whether she is getting that treatment, and how she thinks that is going.  She may tell you very directly and honestly what you need to know, or she may clam up, and that will tell you a lot too.

It may never be an option to talk directly to her therapist without your wife in the room, and maybe that's as it should be.  But I would keep it as an objective, before taking any risky steps - and in my view, any time you are alone with your wife, without a non-family adult third party present, there is a degree of risk, and if you moved back in together, the risk would be much higher - to maybe aim to have a fairly solid understanding of what her problem is, and what therapy is underway, and how it's going, before stepping back into a more stressful and risky situation.

That may slow down efforts to reconcile.  To the point made by a few of us here, the relationship probably cannot succeed, by any reasonable definition of "success", without both parties being reasonably mentally healthy, and there is good reason to believe that your wife isn't.  So it's just prudent to understand that before making any decisions that could have bad consequences, in my humble opinion... .

[formflier]

 

Entirely possible that the psychologist is taking that approach... .to diagnosis or tell her something "less" and work on what he thinks the real problem is.

I would argue against that though...

He did say if it was BPD... .that it would be difficult... .he would become "the hated one"... .but he had done that before... .and would do it again... if needed.

As another point of view... .not sure if I've shared yet.  He is open about imploring both of us... .while together... and with me individually... .and wife has said he told her as much.  That a big reason to work hard in T is that we have 8 wonderful kids. 

That we had a choice to make... .we could devolve into divorce, custody... .fights and that entire process... .and that would leave big scars on our kids. 

Or... we could work on our own issues... .we could work on the family dynamic... .and put things back together again and demonstrate a healthy r/s for our kids.

This is coming from a grandfather type figure.  Been there done that kind of guy.

So... .don't take this as me arguing with you guys (this is a no JADE zone... right!   )

But I doubt someone like that would try to "paper over" dysfunctional behavior.   

He certainly has called me out directly on some ptsd behaviors... .and gave me strategies to overcome that.

While I don't know exactly what... in most cases... .he has said to her... .I believe I have seen good results.

One thing I know he was strong on with her was for her to stay away from my work... .I'm also not supposed to invite her over... .or to come to events.

Many of those I supervise are women.  Many of the accusations, questions, misundestanding were regarding work relationships that she saw for a brief snippet of time. 

She now understands that's a boundary or area she can't cross... .and seems ok with it.  If I'm doing something I shouldn't be... .eventually I'll get fired for sex harassment or whatever. 

[Matt]

While we were married, and living together, my wife used to say, "I know there's something going on between you and X!".

At different times, "X" was almost every woman I ever worked with;  women who worked at other companies;  my sister-in-law;  my high-school-aged stepdaughter;  neighbors;  my wife's best friend;  etc.  Essentially any woman I had any contact with, that she found out about.

Later, I came to understand that when my wife said that - often phrased exactly like that - "I know... ." - she was telling the truth.  She did know it.  It wasn't true - I never did anything inappropriate with anyone while we were married - not even once, not even a little.  But my wife really knew what she knew, and here's how:

People with BPD and some other disorders sometimes engage - probably unconsciously - in "emotional reasoning".  For most of us, the sequence is, sensation leads to observation, and that leads to understanding, and that leads to feeling.  I see a pattern of light and colors - sensation.  I sort that out into an image - a child with a scraped knee.  I interpret that as, "Looks like the child scraped his knee and is feeling pain." - understanding.  And I feel sad, or concerned, or fearful, because of what I understand has happened.

My interpretation might be wrong - maybe it's an actor playing a part and the child really isn't hurt, or maybe the child's parents are nearby and he will be taken care of very well so I don't need to be concerned.  But I am going from sensation to feeling, and that usually works pretty well.

Someone who experiences emotional reasoning at times - maybe under stress or in certain situations - starts with the feeling.  My wife felt an intense fear of abandonment, typical of BPD, which came from her childhood experiences - her mother died when she was a baby and her father sent her away to live in another state - she must have felt abandoned at a time when she wasn't able to understand what was going on - intense feelings that were traumatic for her and damaged her ability to think normally.

So as an adult, she felt that same feeling - fear of abandonment - and the one person who might abandon her was me - just like her father and other men had abandoned her when she was younger.  So she "knew" I was thinking of leaving her, and it must be for another woman.  Any contact between me and another woman told her all she needed to know - "I know something is going on with you and Carla!".

When we saw counselors, all this came out, but just discussing this rationally didn't fix the disorder, any more than telling a diabetic, "You need to process sugars more normally!" doesn't cure diabetes - the diabetic needs the right kind of treatment to help him manage his disorder, and "better communication" isn't the kind of treatment that helps a diabetic.  So our various MCs were able to help us with some things, but ultimately my wife's behavior returned - "I know... ." - because the twisted thinking - emotional reasoning - was a fundamental, integrated part of her personality.  She did not exist as a person separate from that part of her personality - it was a part of her and no MC-type couples therapy can fix that.

Be careful about taking any promises seriously;  if your wife says, "I know that's wrong and I promise not to do it again.", it may mean just as much as an alcoholic who is not in treatment saying, "I'll never drink again." - she may mean it 100% but if she does not have the ability to think normally then she will revert to the old behavior because that's who she is.  You don't need to reject the promise - you can reinforce it - "Gee, that's great - that's exactly what we need - no more [behavior]!"  You just need to understand that intentions are good but if someone's personality is what it is, and they think in a certain way, it will be very hard for that to change - she will essentially have to become a different person - a difficult process of frequent and very skilful therapy that will take years to take root.

[formflier]

Be careful about taking any promises seriously;  if your wife says, "I know that's wrong and I promise not to do it again.", it may mean just as much as an alcoholic who is not in treatment saying, "I'll never drink again." - she may mean it 100% but if she does not have the ability to think normally then she will revert to the old behavior because that's who she is.  You don't need to reject the promise - you can reinforce it - "Gee, that's great - that's exactly what we need - no more [behavior]!"  You just need to understand that intentions are good but if someone's personality is what it is, and they think in a certain way, it will be very hard for that to change - she will essentially have to become a different person - a difficult process of frequent and very skilful therapy that will take years to take root.

Yeah... .the problem... .for her is that now there are lots of eyes on this.  So if "I know... ." comes back... .it will be appropriately dealt with.  That doesn't mean it won't come back or it will get fixed in the future.

We have a common frame of thinking and dealing with things like this... .and if she departs from that... .and the rest of the family is staying there... .that will "force" something to happen. 

That something might be good or bad... .we'll have to see. 

If she truely has a PD... .probably won't be good if she abandons therapy.  If the is very high functioning... .or exhibits trailts but doesn't really "have" a pd... .she might come around and get back into therapy.

Whatever she has... .I'm convinced that shining the light... .unapologetically... .is the best strategy.

One of my Navy buddies... .whos ex was way... .way... .way worse than anything mine ever thought of doing put it best.

I asked him how he proved her insane, incompentent and that kind of thing and got full custody.  He corrected me quickly and said people don't prove others to be incompetent... .they just make sure the light doesn't get turned off... .and they will either prove themselves worthy... .or not.   Once she started loosing issues she brought up in court... .it snowballed from there. 

Others on here... .maybe you Matt... .or maybe Forever Dad... .have expressed similar sentiments... .just didn't put it exactly that way.

KateCat and asked what my plan was earlier.  I think I sort of mumbled around an answer... .I could go read it... .but this thread is getting long     which is a good thing... .very good input. 

Anyway... .it's been bugging me that I didn't have a good answer. 

So... my answer is.  If something happens in the future... .I'll use the tools as best I can... .and unapologetically shine the light on whatever is happening. 

We regularly talk now about if things are healthy for our r/s and with our kids.  So... ."i know you did xyz with brenda big britches... "  I would probably say... "help me understand how talking about this in this manner is healthy for our r/s... ." 

And then... .see where it goes from there. 

If it backs off and gets reasonable.  I will validate that... .probably just wait till next session to bring it up.

If it goes nuclear.  I'll use a boundary... .and place a phone call.  Family T guy has given us his cell.  We've used it once or twice... .and it's been helpful.

So... .hopefully that is a better plan.  Thoughts?

[123Phoebe]

We regularly talk now about if things are healthy for our r/s and with our kids.  So... ."i know you did xyz with brenda big britches... "  I would probably say... "help me understand how talking about this in this manner is healthy for our r/s... ." 



And then... .see where it goes from there. 

If it backs off and gets reasonable.  I will validate that... .probably just wait till next session to bring it up.

If it goes nuclear.  I'll use a boundary... .and place a phone call.  Family T guy has given us his cell.  We've used it once or twice... .and it's been helpful.

So... .hopefully that is a better plan.  Thoughts?

Hi formflier,

It's really great that you're thinking this stuff through on the board   While I'm not claiming to have an answer, I'm wondering if the fact that the two of you are able to talk now about things that are healthy for your relationship, isn't a separate thing from her knowing you did xyz with brenda big britches.  I mean, that's definitely not healthy, I get that, it's just that she's saying this for a reason... .  Her emotions are riding on it.  They are hers and they are real.

I tried to argue my dad out of his schizophrenia, talk sense into him, rationalize with him--> invalidate him.  I do it to my partner too, from time to time.  I think that my reality is more valid when I get into that mode

Her-- "I know you did xzy with brenda big britches"

I did?  Wait, what?

Her-- "You heard me"

I heard that I did xyz with brenda big britches; can you help me understand what you mean?


Again, I'm not saying that this is the absolute way of going about it.  I would like to open up the conversation to get deeper into her feelings, so that I could validate those...   Why is she accusing you of doing xyz etc...   Does she feel neglected?  Disrespected?  Undesirable?  Then if it goes nuclear, set that boundary... maybe?

[Matt]

I'd be interested in everybody's ideas about how to handle this - "I know that you did XYZ with Brenda Big Britches."

My own thoughts are that if someone says something like this, they are nuts, and you need to not be around them.

I very much doubt that there is any way to talk her into sanity at that point.

[formflier]

I'd be interested in everybody's ideas about how to handle this - "I know that you did XYZ with Brenda Big Britches."

My own thoughts are that if someone says something like this, they are nuts, and you need to not be around them.

I very much doubt that there is any way to talk her into sanity at that point.

Yeah... .I know I wouldn't be the one to talk her anywhere with that... .whatever the Ts would do with that... we'll see.

[KateCat]

I don't know what the Ts would say at that point, other than, "We have a fine assortment of newer medications to offer you."

[Matt]

I don't know what the Ts would say at that point, other than, "We have a fine assortment of newer medications to offer you."

Well that's the thing... .

(... .and admittedly we are speculating a bit here, none of us but Formflier knowing Mrs. Flier, and Formflier also not knowing her diagnosis... .)

... .but if it is BPD, I don't think that is treatable by medications, or other PDs, though meds can be used sometimes to treat some of the symptoms.

This is twisted thinking, not a biochemical problem.  Caused, in general, by early-life trauma, and treatable by a ton of talk-therapy.

[Grey Kitty]

I'd be interested in everybody's ideas about how to handle this - "I know that you did XYZ with Brenda Big Britches."

My own thoughts are that if someone says something like this, they are nuts, and you need to not be around them.

I very much doubt that there is any way to talk her into sanity at that point.

Validate how your wife feel's about you "doing xyz with brenda big britches".

She must have a whole raft of horribly unpleasant and uncomfortable feelings about this. Let her know you understand how she is FEELING.

This is hard. Sometimes you aren't up to it; even if you aren't, at least don't pick up the gauntlet and fight over whether you did or didn't--nothing good comes of that.

[formflier]

This is hard. Sometimes you aren't up to it; even if you aren't, at least don't pick up the gauntlet and fight over whether you did or didn't--nothing good comes of that.

Yep... .I've pretty much figured out that I'm done with conflict.  If it doesn't have to to with life/safety issues... .I'm not going to fight over it.

[123Phoebe]

We regularly talk now about if things are healthy for our r/s and with our kids.  So... ."i know you did xyz with brenda big britches... "  I would probably say... "help me understand how talking about this in this manner is healthy for our r/s... ."  

What would you like to hear her say?

[formflier]

We regularly talk now about if things are healthy for our r/s and with our kids.  So... ."i know you did xyz with brenda big britches... "  I would probably say... "help me understand how talking about this in this manner is healthy for our r/s... ."  

What would you like to hear her say?

Hmm... good question.  I would hope that my non-confrontational response would help her realize that she should reframe the question.

"Can you tell me about your r/s with brenda big brithches?"

Or something along those lines.

[KateCat]

Good question, Phoebe. Hmmm.

An article on psychcentral.com www.psychcentral.com/disorders/sx37t.htm seems to echo what Matt has been suggesting concerning treatment for paranoid personality disorder.

If I read it right, treatment is generally short on meds; fairly short also on family counseling; and long, long, long on individual talk therapy.

[123Phoebe]

We regularly talk now about if things are healthy for our r/s and with our kids.  So... ."i know you did xyz with brenda big britches... " I would probably say... "help me understand how talking about this in this manner is healthy for our r/s... ."  

What would you like to hear her say?

Hmm... good question.  I would hope that my non-confrontational response would help her realize that she should reframe the question.

"Can you tell me about your r/s with brenda big brithches?"

Or something along those lines.

I've found that it's my own expectations that cause a lot of the turmoil in my relationship.  I try to get rid of the "shoulds"-- he should do this, he shouldn't think that way, why should I do this when... etc...

If your wife could easily reframe that question with a little coaxing, 'brenda big britches' probably wouldn't be an issue.  Why is that?  Because 'brenda big britches' isn't the issue.  Your wife's emotions are the issue.  She's feeling something... .And it doesn't feel good.

Is the way she's going about expressing her feelings healthy?  Nope.  Is it up to you or any of us to make our partners healthy?  Nope.  

The way we interact with them, owning our own feelings, can definitely help though, while accepting that they're feeling a certain way

What feelings come up for you when she accuses you of doing xyz with brenda big britches?

[formflier]

We regularly talk now about if things are healthy for our r/s and with our kids.  So... ."i know you did xyz with brenda big britches... " I would probably say... "help me understand how talking about this in this manner is healthy for our r/s... ."  

What would you like to hear her say?

Hmm... good question.  I would hope that my non-confrontational response would help her realize that she should reframe the question.

"Can you tell me about your r/s with brenda big brithches?"

Or something along those lines.

I've found that it's my own expectations that cause a lot of the turmoil in my relationship.  I try to get rid of the "shoulds"-- he should do this, he shouldn't think that way, why should I do this when... etc...

If your wife could easily reframe that question with a little coaxing, 'brenda big britches' probably wouldn't be an issue.  Why is that?  Because 'brenda big britches' isn't the issue.  Your wife's emotions are the issue.  She's feeling something... .And it doesn't feel good.

Is the way she's going about expressing her feelings healthy?  Nope.  Is it up to you or any of us to make our partners healthy?  Nope.  

The way we interact with them, owning our own feelings, can definitely help though, while accepting that they're feeling a certain way

What feelings come up for you when she accuses you of doing xyz with brenda big britches?

Oh... I "take it personally". 

From the book talked about earlier... .four agreements.  That was the part I hadn't thought about at all.

And I would have a really bad reaction to that.

If a gentle redirect helps her deal with her emotions... .great... we've made progress.

If it doesn't then I just make sure and offer he access to T to get help and keep shining the light.  I'm not responsible for her emotions.

[123Phoebe]

We regularly talk now about if things are healthy for our r/s and with our kids.  So... ."i know you did xyz with brenda big britches... " I would probably say... "help me understand how talking about this in this manner is healthy for our r/s... ."  

What would you like to hear her say?

Hmm... good question.  I would hope that my non-confrontational response would help her realize that she should reframe the question.

"Can you tell me about your r/s with brenda big brithches?"

Or something along those lines.

I've found that it's my own expectations that cause a lot of the turmoil in my relationship.  I try to get rid of the "shoulds"-- he should do this, he shouldn't think that way, why should I do this when... etc...

If your wife could easily reframe that question with a little coaxing, 'brenda big britches' probably wouldn't be an issue.  Why is that?  Because 'brenda big britches' isn't the issue.  Your wife's emotions are the issue.  She's feeling something... .And it doesn't feel good.

Is the way she's going about expressing her feelings healthy?  Nope.  Is it up to you or any of us to make our partners healthy?  Nope.  

The way we interact with them, owning our own feelings, can definitely help though, while accepting that they're feeling a certain way

What feelings come up for you when she accuses you of doing xyz with brenda big britches?

Oh... I "take it personally". 

From the book talked about earlier... .four agreements.  That was the part I hadn't thought about at all.

And I would have a really bad reaction to that.

If a gentle redirect helps her deal with her emotions... .great... we've made progress.

If it doesn't then I just make sure and offer he access to T to get help and keep shining the light.  I'm not responsible for her emotions.

Validation, formflier , I think you'd get further ahead by validating her, while owning up to your own emotions.

I wanted to connect with my partner, not push him away.  I was afraid to give him any of my inside goodies though, in fear that he would use them against me.  I had him on enemy lines straight out of the gate, when confronting some of the weirdness.

Your wife might be attracted to your strength, being a military guy (Thank you for your service ), and thinks that brenda big britches is too!  She might be afraid she's going to lose you to that hussy .

If that is the case, does it change how you feel about her accusation?

Taking things personally, is our own stuff to deal with.  I take things way too personally.  It's not anybody else's problem but my own.  I don't expect my partner to understand that when he's dysregulated especially.  I have to own it, it's all mine.