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Author Topic: Can following the advice of this website lead to divorce from a pwBPD  (Read 740 times)
startrekuser
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« on: July 27, 2014, 08:47:00 PM »

So if I take the advice of this website and do the SET and validate, then that would be creating intimacy and may drive my wife uBPD away from me.  Does this sound plausible?  I've been very nice to her in our current crisis and she just keeps moving further away from me, threatening to see a divorce attorney and moving out.
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« Reply #1 on: July 27, 2014, 09:42:41 PM »

So if I take the advice of this website and do the SET and validate, then that would be creating intimacy and may drive my wife uBPD away from me.  Does this sound plausible?  I've been very nice to her in our current crisis and she just keeps moving further away from me, threatening to see a divorce attorney and moving out.

Can you go into a lot more detail about what "being nice" to her is. 

Divorce attorney and move out threats are par for the course.  Many times they are idle threats... .sometimes they aren't.

Usually it is a threat to get you to make a decision out of fear... .fear of your pwBPD leaving.

Please give some more details and I think we can help you out.

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« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2014, 08:12:06 AM »

We are guiding you to have a better life for you. The consequences of that may be varied.

Even though the staying board is aimed at those committed to staying in the RS. It is a double standard, as it is commitment for the moment. Life is always a choice, things change.

It takes a degree of commitment to stay the course, as it is hard. Learning BPD from the inside and attempting to do your best whilst in a RS to save it. Some still then move on, but they are in a position to know they have done all they could and are doing the right thing by themselves. Ridding themselves of the "if onlys" and 'what was all that about?'

If you do your best in line with the advice you get, and it fails, then it would probably have failed anyway, or worse you would have stayed miserable together. Building a healthy future for you is priority 1, maintaining the RS is priority 2.

There will be upheavals, and maybe comings and goings. Without doubt there will be games of chicken. Life is always a gamble, but you have a right to have a say in how your bets are placed to get the best odds as you see them

Just as an encouragement a member who recently trod the steps you are starting to tread

https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=229927.new#new
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« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2014, 08:37:34 AM »

My "problem" has always been putting myself 2nd. If I say I can't cut this life any longer with this mental illness my wife suffers with ALONG with living with her adult son who suffers with a mental illness and I just decide to leave it, then I leave someone in my perception that is helpless. It's like what I believe down inside keeps me from leaving but I am miserable in the state we are in. Unless something miraculous happens I am pretty sure my wife will not get help for her issues and her son is not going to get help.

I know I am sounding negative.

I have set back and let so many things in my life wither away. Sunday night could have ended on a good note but because of this illness it ends in anger. I validate her and yet I get treated like I am the one at fault. I just accepted it and went to bed.

I know once I open the door to addressing the issues even more aggressively there will be no turning back to what will be unleashed on me. Sometimes I guess fear stops us from doing a lot of things we should.

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« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2014, 08:36:58 PM »

I know once I open the door to addressing the issues even more aggressively there will be no turning back to what will be unleashed on me. Sometimes I guess fear stops us from doing a lot of things we should.

I might argue with you a bit on this one.

Yes... .it is very possible if you use more tools... .especially if you use boundaries... .that it may seem to get worse for a bit... .as they test to see if the boundary is real.

I have personally experience this... .and yeah... .it was no fun.  But I came out the other side with the boundary intact... .and a much better life and r/s after that.

No... .everything is not perfect... .but I got through that.

Not doing something because of what you fear they may do... is exactly what most pwBPD try to get you to do.   That is called making a decision out of fear... .instead of out of wisdom.

The FOG... .fear obligation and guilt... .is a bad place to be.

Please tell me more about what you think you should do... .but aren't because of what would happen.

What do you think they would do?

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« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2014, 08:52:08 PM »

So if I take the advice of this website and do the SET and validate, then that would be creating intimacy and may drive my wife uBPD away from me.  Does this sound plausible?  I've been very nice to her in our current crisis and she just keeps moving further away from me, threatening to see a divorce attorney and moving out.

Can you go into a lot more detail about what "being nice" to her is. 

Divorce attorney and move out threats are par for the course.  Many times they are idle threats... .sometimes they aren't.

Usually it is a threat to get you to make a decision out of fear... .fear of your pwBPD leaving.

Please give some more details and I think we can help you out.

I made an agreement with my wife to give her a certain amount of money if I she was upset and I didn't try to make her feel better before we went to sleep.  Shortly after that, I started on this website.  She was upset about something and I went to talk to her and she would only talk through a locked door, then she started yelling and blaming.  I said the yelling has to stop and she said that I'm blaming her for the problem.   I said, "no, I'm blaming you for yelling".  Somewhere in there she said I owe her the money.  Anyway, I left the conversation saying that it's not respectful and that she should come to me when she wants to have a respectful discussion.  The next day she said I owe her the money and I was tempted to argue, but instead, a few days later, I just said that I can't keep to the agreement.  She's furious about that and says that I can't be trusted, I'm a bad husband, yada, yada, yada.  It's a total reversal of my behavior.  When I made the agreement, I was still thinking that I AM to blame, that the problems are all my fault, but THEY ARE NOT.  There's a pattern here whenever there is a conflict where she yells and blames and takes no responsibility and I AGREE that I'm responsible for whatever the issue is.  Those days are OVER and she doesn't know what to do.  She's stuck on the old script and I've moved on S.E.T and validation.  She wants me to admit that I was wrong, no, HORRIBLY wrong to end that agreement.  I used S.E.T on that issue and I used it well.
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« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2014, 10:09:57 PM »

So if I take the advice of this website and do the SET and validate, then that would be creating intimacy and may drive my wife uBPD away from me.  Does this sound plausible?  I've been very nice to her in our current crisis and she just keeps moving further away from me, threatening to see a divorce attorney and moving out.

Can you go into a lot more detail about what "being nice" to her is. 

Divorce attorney and move out threats are par for the course.  Many times they are idle threats... .sometimes they aren't.

Usually it is a threat to get you to make a decision out of fear... .fear of your pwBPD leaving.

Please give some more details and I think we can help you out.

I made an agreement with my wife to give her a certain amount of money if I she was upset and I didn't try to make her feel better before we went to sleep.  Shortly after that, I started on this website.  She was upset about something and I went to talk to her and she would only talk through a locked door, then she started yelling and blaming.  I said the yelling has to stop and she said that I'm blaming her for the problem.   I said, "no, I'm blaming you for yelling".  Somewhere in there she said I owe her the money.  Anyway, I left the conversation saying that it's not respectful and that she should come to me when she wants to have a respectful discussion.  The next day she said I owe her the money and I was tempted to argue, but instead, a few days later, I just said that I can't keep to the agreement.  She's furious about that and says that I can't be trusted, I'm a bad husband, yada, yada, yada.  It's a total reversal of my behavior.  When I made the agreement, I was still thinking that I AM to blame, that the problems are all my fault, but THEY ARE NOT.  There's a pattern here whenever there is a conflict where she yells and blames and takes no responsibility and I AGREE that I'm responsible for whatever the issue is.  Those days are OVER and she doesn't know what to do.  She's stuck on the old script and I've moved on S.E.T and validation.  She wants me to admit that I was wrong, no, HORRIBLY wrong to end that agreement.  I used S.E.T on that issue and I used it well.

I think you are on the right track.

Continuing unproductive patterns of communication and behavior are bad for both of you.

Couple of points on the good, better... .best scale of doing things.

Telling her what she must do... .and using the word "blame"... .should probably be avoided.

Probably better to give it as a choice. 

"I'm going to go for a walk and will be back in 15 minutes.  If you have calmed down by then I would like to have a quiet conversation with you"  (hopefully some more senior members can  tweak this a bit)

The above might have been better to say rather than saying "the yelling must stop".

Blaming for anything is confrontational.  If she starts blaming you for something... try "I'm sorry you feel that way... " 

Depending on the intensity of this... .maybe move straight to validation.  If you think there is a massive misconception... .do SET... .and use the T to fill in a truth gap.

Honor relative calm by staying and validating.  Immediately reward abusive talk by enforcing a boundary.

Don't gloat over this... just do it and move on.  No need to mention it again.  they may act like they don't understand... .or didn't hear... .but they did.  Acting like they didn't is a ploy to get you to starting arguing... or JADEing.

How does the above plan for improvement sound?
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« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2014, 10:22:00 PM »

So if I take the advice of this website and do the SET and validate, then that would be creating intimacy and may drive my wife uBPD away from me.  Does this sound plausible?  I've been very nice to her in our current crisis and she just keeps moving further away from me, threatening to see a divorce attorney and moving out.

Can you go into a lot more detail about what "being nice" to her is. 

Divorce attorney and move out threats are par for the course.  Many times they are idle threats... .sometimes they aren't.

Usually it is a threat to get you to make a decision out of fear... .fear of your pwBPD leaving.

Please give some more details and I think we can help you out.

I made an agreement with my wife to give her a certain amount of money if I she was upset and I didn't try to make her feel better before we went to sleep.  Shortly after that, I started on this website.  She was upset about something and I went to talk to her and she would only talk through a locked door, then she started yelling and blaming.  I said the yelling has to stop and she said that I'm blaming her for the problem.   I said, "no, I'm blaming you for yelling".  Somewhere in there she said I owe her the money.  Anyway, I left the conversation saying that it's not respectful and that she should come to me when she wants to have a respectful discussion.  The next day she said I owe her the money and I was tempted to argue, but instead, a few days later, I just said that I can't keep to the agreement.  She's furious about that and says that I can't be trusted, I'm a bad husband, yada, yada, yada.  It's a total reversal of my behavior.  When I made the agreement, I was still thinking that I AM to blame, that the problems are all my fault, but THEY ARE NOT.  There's a pattern here whenever there is a conflict where she yells and blames and takes no responsibility and I AGREE that I'm responsible for whatever the issue is.  Those days are OVER and she doesn't know what to do.  She's stuck on the old script and I've moved on S.E.T and validation.  She wants me to admit that I was wrong, no, HORRIBLY wrong to end that agreement.  I used S.E.T on that issue and I used it well.

I think you are on the right track.

Continuing unproductive patterns of communication and behavior are bad for both of you.

Couple of points on the good, better... .best scale of doing things.

Telling her what she must do... .and using the word "blame"... .should probably be avoided.

Probably better to give it as a choice. 

"I'm going to go for a walk and will be back in 15 minutes.  If you have calmed down by then I would like to have a quiet conversation with you"  (hopefully some more senior members can  tweak this a bit)

The above might have been better to say rather than saying "the yelling must stop".

Blaming for anything is confrontational.  If she starts blaming you for something... try "I'm sorry you feel that way... " 

Depending on the intensity of this... .maybe move straight to validation.  If you think there is a massive misconception... .do SET... .and use the T to fill in a truth gap.

Honor relative calm by staying and validating.  Immediately reward abusive talk by enforcing a boundary.

Don't gloat over this... just do it and move on.  No need to mention it again.  they may act like they don't understand... .or didn't hear... .but they did.  Acting like they didn't is a ploy to get you to starting arguing... or JADEing.

How does the above plan for improvement sound?

Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)

replacing in bold with>"things have". again blaming triggers auto defence. I know it seems trivial but can make all the difference. It changes your own mind set if nothing else.

Agree with not saying "the yelling must stop". Thats a demand, and you can't make her do anything. If anything say 'will not discuss anything while there is yelling involved'... then dont. That way you are saying clearly what you have control over and can do.
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« Reply #8 on: July 28, 2014, 10:25:49 PM »

 

Thanks waverider.

Solid point... .and I agree... that would make a HUGE difference in the way it is perceived.


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« Reply #9 on: July 28, 2014, 10:45:48 PM »

I think you are on the right track.

Continuing unproductive patterns of communication and behavior are bad for both of you.

Couple of points on the good, better... .best scale of doing things.

Telling her what she must do... .and using the word "blame"... .should probably be avoided.

Probably better to give it as a choice.  

"I'm going to go for a walk and will be back in 15 minutes.  If you have calmed down by then I would like to have a quiet conversation with you"  (hopefully some more senior members can  tweak this a bit)

The above might have been better to say rather than saying "the yelling must stop".

Blaming for anything is confrontational.  If she starts blaming you for something... try "I'm sorry you feel that way... "  

Depending on the intensity of this... .maybe move straight to validation.  If you think there is a massive misconception... .do SET... .and use the T to fill in a truth gap.

Honor relative calm by staying and validating.  Immediately reward abusive talk by enforcing a boundary.

Don't gloat over this... just do it and move on.  No need to mention it again.  they may act like they don't understand... .or didn't hear... .but they did.  Acting like they didn't is a ploy to get you to starting arguing... or JADEing.

How does the above plan for improvement sound?

It all sounds good.  Thanks for the advice.  In some ways I've been getting better.  Tonight we had a conversation and I tried to tell her that I want a more balanced relationship.  Well, the sarcasm started and I walked out of the conversation.  Then the drama and the yelling and I left the house.  Came back later, had to leave again.  I had a feeling my request for a balanced relationship would be a mistake when talking to a BPD.  I don't exist in our relationship.  The last thing on earth she wants to do is take responsibility for the relationship.  She just wants to blame me relentlessly.

Part of the conversation was that she said that I didn't address her feelings in the last conversation when that's all I did, but it didn't register, seemingly.  She said she felt worse after the last conversation.  Anyway, I think that in tonight's conversation, I was successful with boundaries, but not so with SET and JADE.  I will learn, but it will take time.
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« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2014, 12:33:44 AM »

I'm so disgusted right now with my uBPD wife after tonight's discussion.  She's so mean and nasty it makes me ill.  I can't sleep and I'm tired in general.  I can't live like this much longer.  I need sleep.  The only hope is the therapist that she's going to see on Thursday.  She's setting herself up for a HUGE disappointment, but that might work.  She's going to see him to complain about me and hopefully he'll see how selfish she is.  When I go there, I will tell him all the things she's done and she is going to flip out, especially when he calls her out for her wrongs.

Anyone have any advice as to how I should best take advantage of therapy?  Thanks.
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« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2014, 01:48:01 AM »

Anyone have any advice as to how I should best take advantage of therapy?  Thanks.

Dont turn T into a battleground or things will just get worse.

Just stick to what you are doing and stay consistent. You will feel better about you if nothing else.
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« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2014, 01:54:14 AM »

Is this individual therapy, or couples counseling?

Either way, this isn't what will happen, I guarantee you:

1. T sees what crap your wife is pulling.

2. T calls your wife on her crap.

3. Your wife then stops all the crap.

You may wish for it, but it won't go that way!

My advice is to tell your truths, and be open to what changes you can make that will improve your life. If it is a good T, you may get advice similar to what you are receiving here.

Tonight we had a conversation and I tried to tell her that I want a more balanced relationship.  Well, the sarcasm started and I walked out of the conversation.  Then the drama and the yelling and I left the house.  Came back later, had to leave again.

Yes, you are learning. Sounds like what you did worked reasonably well--your boundary protected you from being yelled at.

If you are consistent on this one, your wife will figure it out... .and likely realize that yelling at you for 30 seconds as you are leaving the house isn't very satisfying. So she may well stop.

Excerpt
I had a feeling my request for a balanced relationship would be a mistake when talking to a BPD.

Probably right. That the request has an implication that your r/s has been unbalanced in your wife's favor. Telling her this is invalidating--However true it may be, she doesn't see it that way.

I've found that requests/discussions/negotiations go better at a small and concrete level than at a large, general, or vague level.

What is a specific thing you would like to change to make your r/s feel more balanced?
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« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2014, 09:23:32 AM »

most couples start couples therapy with the deeply held belief that their partner is obviously the identified patient causing all problems.  A skilled therapist will not become triangulated in that classic position, because there is no growth there, it is a stuck position,a joining with the stuck dynamic already at play. Instead, the relationship is the patient, the entity you and your wife co-create together. If the couple can't shift to that stance, individual therapy is usually recommended instead. this is common in these kinds of relationships.
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« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2014, 01:48:03 PM »

I'm so disgusted right now with my uBPD wife after tonight's discussion.  She's so mean and nasty it makes me ill.  I can't sleep and I'm tired in general.  I can't live like this much longer.  I need sleep.  The only hope is the therapist that she's going to see on Thursday.  She's setting herself up for a HUGE disappointment, but that might work.  She's going to see him to complain about me and hopefully he'll see how selfish she is.  When I go there, I will tell him all the things she's done and she is going to flip out, especially when he calls her out for her wrongs.

Anyone have any advice as to how I should best take advantage of therapy?  Thanks.

I recommend that the most important thing you can do is focus on getting good sleep.

Many times I was tired... .and then didn't care about validation... .SET... .boundaries... .and said things I regret.

Plus... .you won't feel tired... .

What do you think you can do to improve your sleep?

Is this a new things?  Or has sleep been bad for a while.

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« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2014, 05:01:48 PM »

I'm so disgusted right now with my uBPD wife after tonight's discussion.  She's so mean and nasty it makes me ill.  I can't sleep and I'm tired in general.  I can't live like this much longer.  I need sleep.  The only hope is the therapist that she's going to see on Thursday.  She's setting herself up for a HUGE disappointment, but that might work.  She's going to see him to complain about me and hopefully he'll see how selfish she is.  When I go there, I will tell him all the things she's done and she is going to flip out, especially when he calls her out for her wrongs.

Anyone have any advice as to how I should best take advantage of therapy?  Thanks.

I recommend that the most important thing you can do is focus on getting good sleep.

Many times I was tired... .and then didn't care about validation... .SET... .boundaries... .and said things I regret.

Plus... .you won't feel tired... .

What do you think you can do to improve your sleep?

Is this a new things?  Or has sleep been bad for a while.

1. go to bed early

2. enforce boundaries so there is no abuse before bedtime

It worked last night and I got a good night of sleep.  I'm still tired b/c I need to do some catching up, but tonight I'll try the same thing again.
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« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2014, 05:23:27 PM »

Sorry, I joined this thread late.  A couple of thoughts:

1) The reason you follow the tools here is to make your life better and happier.  The tools could make your r/s better, or could lead to the end.  My internal turmoil has gotten better since I have switched my mindset to "I'll do what I can to be happy, and if the relationship ends, it was not meant to me."  So, if following the advice here leads to the end of your marriage, it just says to me there was nothing you could have done anyway.  Your options:  Continue living in hell, or try to regain a sense of self and your wife may or may not come along with you.  Either way, you have nothing to lose.

2)  The advice given about T is good.  If you go into the session thinking that the T will call your wife out on her crap, you are just as well not going.  That won't happen.  Ts aren't judges, they aren't trying to assign blame for this or that to one party. 

3)  I'd suggest for you a "safe place".  Have a standing reservation on the sofa at the house of a nearby friend or family member.  Keep a back of clothes and basic needs in the trunk of your car.  The sofa in your family room or an air mattress in the basement are a much better nights sleep than in the same room as a screaming wife.  A few weeks ago, I got the screaming rage, and the next two nights I volunteered for the sofa, and they were the best nights sleep I had in weeks. 

4)  As mentioned, boundaries.  This is tricky.  I tend to just leave, thinking she will know why I left.  But that makes things worse.  I like the idea of giving her an option, but I think at the very least it's important to let you know where you are going, why, that you care about her concerns, and when you will be back.  The reality is, you have no option here but to get out of the crossfire.  You can't calm a screaming person who is mad at you.  You won't be able so settle her concerns if she is that upset.  And staying for the onslaught will damage the hell out of you.  Leave to protect yourself, then figure things out when (or if) she calms down.
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« Reply #17 on: July 30, 2014, 07:01:35 PM »

1. go to bed early

2. enforce boundaries so there is no abuse before bedtime

It worked last night and I got a good night of sleep.  I'm still tired b/c I need to do some catching up, but tonight I'll try the same thing again.

Good deal!  Being fresh and "full up" on good sleep is a huge benefit.  Helps you deal with the real world better... .and certainly helps you deal with a PWBPD better.

What do you think you can do that may improve things so that boundary enforcement may not need to be done?

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« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2014, 07:47:03 PM »

Hello Friend:

I'd like to tell you of our experience with our UBPD SIL regarding the divorce threats. Our brother has two beautiful children.  For years his wife tried to persuade him to get vascetomy... .BPD traits fully present and rearing in his life all this time.  Completely GASLIT and FOGGED and isolated from his loving family, he went to the clinic and while he was in the waiting room, he saw the face of someone walking out of the operation theater and this man's facial expression stopped him in his tracks and he walked out.  His decision not to go through with it was the first tiny crack in his total enslavement to a mentally disordered individual.

For years, he cowered to the threats of divorce and much devastation followed (financial and emotional abuse of elderly mother-our mother etc. etc.).  He desperately wanted to keep the family intact and bought into the perceptions that we all were "bad" and "below her standards"  and therefore his wife was so dysregulated, and that we all deserved this treatment--including himself.

MC with an astute counselor who was also experienced with dealing with personality disordered individuals, woke him up to the fact that there is something called personality disorders and that it is a mental illness and that there are certain communication tools that help dissipate the worst of the effects of the disorder on the nons who love them.

Mind you that the communication techniques (SET/not JADING) etc. are meant to reduce the effects of dysregulation on both the individuals.  If these communication techniques do not work in a certain situation, then the non disordered individual needs to physically remove himself and any other minors in the house immediately.

So with a better understanding of the disorder and the tools, something very interesting happened.  Now he had accepted that she was disordered.  He still wanted his family intact but was no longer FOGGED.  He made a pact with her to keep his wife and children and her family and his family--the mother, siblings separate.  This took away her "reason" for dysregulation.  Now whenever she wanted a divorce, he agreed to sign papers.  When she threatened to keep children away from him, he said that God will give him more children.  When she threatened to clean his finances dry, he said that he came to this country with $50.00 in his pocket and will begin from the beginning again... .no problem.

Her threats were like huge scary balloon monsters that cast huge shadows in the twilight.  She never consulted a divorce attorney, never filed divorce, never took a single step.  Yes, unfortunately they lead quite parallel lives in many ways... .but there is peace in the house.  Our brother is content with peace... .this alone is his definition of love.  This is the love he gives her... .he gives her his presence and his availability and the financial fruits of his labor and the 3 million dollar house and social prestige and a new model Mercedes every year and diamonds and quarterly world trips with her girl friends and facials and spas and nails and pedicures and hair and designer purses... .He had always given these to her... .without peace

Now he gave her freedom.  Freedom to stay or go, divorce with children or not... .her decision.  Once he accepted who she is and what she can or cannot give and her limitations and the limitations that a mental disorder imposes on her, he negotiated peace.

She no longer wants a divorce.  All she wanted was freedom to get one.

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What I am trying to illustrate here is that it is morally wrong for you to argue against divorce.  There is a moral reason why the society as a whole agreed not to force mentally ill individuals into therapy or institutions.  The doctors do not force medicine on anyone.  Society does not even force innoculation and vaccination.  The individual's relationship with himself or herself is sacrosanct, inviolable.

Your relationship with yourself is of primary importance... .it is divinely ordained, it is inviolable, complete and moral in itself.

So is her relationship within herself.

You can only change and control yourself.  You can only accept her.

Change in her may or may not occur because of change in YOU.

You can only enforce boundaries on yourself... .not on her.  To enforce them on her will make you into an abusive controlling person--yes, the exception is when she is a physical threat to herself or others... .

When you change, she may change, she may not change, she may change for the better, she may change for the worse.

Or, she may change for the worse before she changes for the better ("Extinction Burst".

The outcome is not within your control... .only your own actions are within your control.  You have power only over yourself.  Your change may be a catalyst and "influence" her behavior or thought patterns... .but it is not in your control.

When you accept the limitations of your relationship and your career, amazing things will happen, you will begin to walk the path to healing as our brother did.  Limitations being:  You are her husband... .not her doctor.  You are not trained as a clinician who can manage or cure mental disorders.  You can love her and accept her, but not change her nor control her, neither her actions nor her thought processes.

You cannot tell her to "stop yelling", for that would be controlling... .you can however, safely say,  "I am going for a walk for 30 minutes and we will talk later."  Go for that walk and then really be back within the 30 minutes.  When you return, if yelling begins again, take yourself out again... .and again... .and again... .and again... .and again.

God bless.
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« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2014, 10:55:33 PM »

Nicely put, in fact have led a very similar life to your brother including not going through with a vescetomy, I'm working towards peace but not quite there , I'm not sure whether it will be enough for me but I guess I'll know when I get there

Your brother and his family are lucky to have you  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #20 on: August 03, 2014, 05:19:49 PM »

Whenever she accuses me of doing something that I didn't do and she says she's hurt and I try using SET and validation, it doesn't work at all.  She is hellbent on getting me to admit I was wrong and to apologize.  My efforts at SET and validation lead her to make accusations that I'm just saying that her feelings are crazy and she's crazy.  My efforts have not worked even one time.  Eventually, I end up defending myself b/c she just keeps pushing me to admit I was wrong and to apologize, which I refuse to do.  It's totally maddening.
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« Reply #21 on: August 03, 2014, 06:25:58 PM »

Well, some times it is good to master the art of the "Politicians' Apology".  This is the non-apology apology.  And if you google non-apologetic apologies... .you will find plenty of examples.

I am not advocating falsehood here.  I am advocating diplomacy.  How to express sympathy of her emotion without admitting responsibility for it.

For example,  "You do not love me.  If you loved me, you would be ... .(shorter, taller, richer, more muscular, world famous, keep in a perpetual state of ecstasy, make my life like a romance novel... .etc. etc.)

To this, you would usually respond by working harder and harder and harder towards fulfilling whatever weakness she thinks you have and is preventing her from being happy.

Instead, what if you consistently and diligently always respond,  "I am so sorry you are upset.  I am so sorry that you do not feel my love for you."... .only these two sentences, without giving long explanations and without giving examples of your loving gestures... .

This is the truth... .she is NOT capable of feeling love.  And therefore NOT being able to love.  Such is the nature of this mental illness.  It is the disease of intimacy. 

Imagine the pain of a person whose brain is always in the state of flight/fight response.  The adrenaline is constantly high, the entire world is a jungle and it is become a prey or be a predator, eat or be eaten, consume or be consumed... .to such a mind, Civilization is just a veneer... .reality is that the strongest survives.  Emotions like love, nurture, sacrifice, honor, courtesy... .are weakness for others to be exploited.

It must be an awful pain to be always in this state. 

Your mind will naturally look for causes, biological and/or psychological.  The reality is that whatever the cause, some parts of the brain are more developed than the others, the brain pathways that control higher functions are less developed/weaker than the limbic pathways.

DBT is a specific therapy that tries to create and entrench the pathways that civilized living allows us to have.


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« Reply #22 on: August 03, 2014, 07:51:49 PM »

Well, some times it is good to master the art of the "Politicians' Apology".  This is the non-apology apology.  And if you google non-apologetic apologies... .you will find plenty of examples.

I am not advocating falsehood here.  I am advocating diplomacy.  How to express sympathy of her emotion without admitting responsibility for it.

For example,  "You do not love me.  If you loved me, you would be ... .(shorter, taller, richer, more muscular, world famous, keep in a perpetual state of ecstasy, make my life like a romance novel... .etc. etc.)

To this, you would usually respond by working harder and harder and harder towards fulfilling whatever weakness she thinks you have and is preventing her from being happy.

Instead, what if you consistently and diligently always respond,  "I am so sorry you are upset.  I am so sorry that you do not feel my love for you."... .only these two sentences, without giving long explanations and without giving examples of your loving gestures... .

This is the truth... .she is NOT capable of feeling love.  And therefore NOT being able to love.  Such is the nature of this mental illness.  It is the disease of intimacy. 

Imagine the pain of a person whose brain is always in the state of flight/fight response.  The adrenaline is constantly high, the entire world is a jungle and it is become a prey or be a predator, eat or be eaten, consume or be consumed... .to such a mind, Civilization is just a veneer... .reality is that the strongest survives.  Emotions like love, nurture, sacrifice, honor, courtesy... .are weakness for others to be exploited.

It must be an awful pain to be always in this state. 

Your mind will naturally look for causes, biological and/or psychological.  The reality is that whatever the cause, some parts of the brain are more developed than the others, the brain pathways that control higher functions are less developed/weaker than the limbic pathways.

DBT is a specific therapy that tries to create and entrench the pathways that civilized living allows us to have.


Thanks pallav.  I do say things like that, but not consistently.  Is it common for a pwBPD to always look for signs that their intimate non partner does want to be intimate and blame the non for lack of intimacy?  That's what my wife does all the time.
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« Reply #23 on: August 04, 2014, 09:15:45 AM »

What a great thread. I’ve learned so much. Very helpful. Thanks to all, especially StarTrekUser for starting it.

When my dBPDw is upset, I find it helpful to interpret her statements as expressions of pain/emotional turmoil. I pay much less attention to the literal content of her statements. Debating an upset BPD on the ‘truth’ is not productive because the BPD has their own emotional reality separate from yours. Instead, look for the cause of that pain and try to say something supportive or empathic.

I like the idea of a diplomatic apology. Concede the tactical ‘defeat’ to make progress on strategic ‘win’—making your wife feel more supported. The things my wife says often involve projection of her faults or fears. Seeing things this way helped me feel more empathetic.

Practicing SET is great, but if you aren’t genuinely feeling empathetic when you get to that stage, it won’t work as well. BPD’s tend to be highly sensitive to and influenced by the emotions of those around them—they are real-world empaths. I struggled with feeling true empathy for my wife until I let go of trying to argue the facts and started to understand how scary and painful the world was to her. This was difficult for me because I’m more Spock than Kirk or Bones. I seek and place high value on the truth. It helped me to realize my wife was mostly stating her subjective emotional truth.
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« Reply #24 on: August 04, 2014, 11:24:38 AM »

What a great thread. I’ve learned so much. Very helpful. Thanks to all, especially StarTrekUser for starting it.

When my dBPDw is upset, I find it helpful to interpret her statements as expressions of pain/emotional turmoil. I pay much less attention to the literal content of her statements. Debating an upset BPD on the ‘truth’ is not productive because the BPD has their own emotional reality separate from yours. Instead, look for the cause of that pain and try to say something supportive or empathic.

I like the idea of a diplomatic apology. Concede the tactical ‘defeat’ to make progress on strategic ‘win’—making your wife feel more supported. The things my wife says often involve projection of her faults or fears. Seeing things this way helped me feel more empathetic.

Practicing SET is great, but if you aren’t genuinely feeling empathetic when you get to that stage, it won’t work as well. BPD’s tend to be highly sensitive to and influenced by the emotions of those around them—they are real-world empaths. I struggled with feeling true empathy for my wife until I let go of trying to argue the facts and started to understand how scary and painful the world was to her. This was difficult for me because I’m more Spock than Kirk or Bones. I seek and place high value on the truth. It helped me to realize my wife was mostly stating her subjective emotional truth.

I hear you.  I'm more like Spock also, so it's really difficult for me to feel what she's feeling.   I jut ticked off by her.
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« Reply #25 on: August 04, 2014, 12:03:42 PM »

Quote from: startrekuser
... .I'm more like Spock also, so it's really difficult for me to feel what she's feeling. ... .

Yeah, I rarely if ever feel what my wife is feeling. For me, empathizing is about understanding why she feels the way she does. She often suffers because of the limited ability to self-regulate emotions and sensitivity associated with BPD. When she suffers she often lashes out because of the limited coping mechanisms available to her and many BPDs. So, when she lashes out at me, it helps me empathize/understand if I realize it is mostly driven by pain she is experiencing and unable to cope with due to BPD.
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« Reply #26 on: August 04, 2014, 12:19:28 PM »

Quote from: startrekuser
... .I'm more like Spock also, so it's really difficult for me to feel what she's feeling. ... .

Yeah, I rarely if ever feel what my wife is feeling. For me, empathizing is about understanding why she feels the way she does. She often suffers because of the limited ability to self-regulate emotions and sensitivity associated with BPD. When she suffers she often lashes out because of the limited coping mechanisms available to her and many BPDs. So, when she lashes out at me, it helps me empathize/understand if I realize it is mostly driven by pain she is experiencing and unable to cope with due to BPD.

I'm really having a difficult time with her.  She interprets frustration and irritation from me as hatred for her.  I'm very lost right now.
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« Reply #27 on: August 04, 2014, 12:28:25 PM »

One last thing, infidelity takes place due to a void in the relationship. All I have ever done is to love my BPDw, respect her wishes, respect our relationship, and give, and this is the result. It is like giving an inch, and she takes 1,000 miles, thus being so distant. I do not plan to be in another relationship, but I am only human.
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« Reply #28 on: August 04, 2014, 12:35:39 PM »

I totally get that. My wife has very low tolerance for me showing any signs of frustration or irritation. She gets mad at me if I sigh. Come on, a dude is entitle to sigh once in a while... .right?

I'd gotten to a place where I had a hare trigger for frustration and irritation. Family therapy helped with that. That's a thing you can change about yourself, not becoming so worked up during confrontations. Not being angry as much. Not easy to change how you feel but it can be done.

I'm doing better at this now, but we will see how I do when my wife goes back to work and things get worse at home... .as I guess they almost certainly must. But hopefully, not as bad as they were before she took her leave of absence.
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« Reply #29 on: August 05, 2014, 08:34:46 PM »

Quote from: startrekuser
... .I'm more like Spock also, so it's really difficult for me to feel what she's feeling. ... .

Yeah, I rarely if ever feel what my wife is feeling. For me, empathizing is about understanding why she feels the way she does. She often suffers because of the limited ability to self-regulate emotions and sensitivity associated with BPD. When she suffers she often lashes out because of the limited coping mechanisms available to her and many BPDs. So, when she lashes out at me, it helps me empathize/understand if I realize it is mostly driven by pain she is experiencing and unable to cope with due to BPD.

That is the first step in acceptance, acknowledging that their feelings are different.

Be careful with using "understand", as you say you dont feel the same so you cant fully "understand". You can acknowledge that it is the way they think. I know that if I press a letter on my keyboard that letter appears on the screen, but i dont truly understand the entire reason why in detail, but I can accept that is what happens

If you tell a pwBPD you "understand' they will either think you are patronizing because they dont believe you do and are oversimplifying it. Or they will take it literally and use it as a free pardon to do whatever, as you are supposed to "understand", so later when you object to anything they do you are hit with "but said you understand... so you were just lying,"...

Sometimes saying "I dont completely understand because I am not you but I can appreciate what you are saying' is validating for them>>acknowledging and supporting without being presumptuous. Not to mention being truthful.
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