Should I talk to SD10 about this?

[How to communicate after a contentious divorce...]

BPD mom has been going through a time of being particularly intense about the kids loving DH and me, and is viewing our contributions to their lives as a threat.  She goes in and out of high drama around these things over the years.  And Yes, I totally get that some things are triggering to any mom or parent particularly when step parents are involved, that this is especially triggering if you have BPD, and so forth.  At this point in time, DH and I have come to the approach to always think of the kids first--not to avoid something nice for them to avoid hurting mom's feelings, while doing our best to support mom in doing good things for the kids even if we need to flex a little (ie, we allowed mom to have kids during DH's time to go to an important family thing for the first time in years as it was important, we felt, for the kids and without help, she would not be able to do it).  As a SM of 7 years, I do not any longer avoid closeness with the girls because it might hurt mom--the kids and I decide how close feels right, and mom and the kids can deal with their own relationship. 

That said, there have been some very angry outbursts by BPD mom in front of the kids about positive experiences they are having with us, and particularly with me. 

The last one is that yesterday, SD10 mentioned to mom she was going to have a special afternoon with me, and mom got totally triggered (understandably) and sent raging texts to DH about how all our fun this summer is bad for the kids, etc. 

So I am feeling like I might want to talk with SD10 about it... .but do not want to put her in a loyalty bind with mom.  I would say something like, "You know, sometimes when your sister gets to do something really fun and you do not, you have hurt feelings?  Well, I think your mom is feeling a little bit that way about some of the fun trips we have had this summer.  And I wanted to tell you that because you know how when your sister comes back from something really fun and how it feels kind of bad to hear her talk about it a lot?  Well, I wanted to let you know that your mom might feel a little left out before you see her, so you can decide if you want to talk a lot about the fun trips with her or not. I am not thinking you should not tell her, but just do not want you to be surprised if she has a little bit of hurt feelings. Does that make sense?"

What I am trying to avoid is SD10 going to mom's and enthusing about our recent time together, and getting raged at by mom.  SD10 is very thoughtful and would probably have a great solution, but at the same time, it would put her in a little bit of a loyalty bind for me to talk about mom in this way. 

SD10 is very much NOT the favorite daughter and gets mom's rage a lot.  Mom told dad in front of SD10 recently, "SD14 is not the bad one, SD10 is the BAD one!  She is a sneak, a liar, and a cheat, and a bad kid!  Watch out for her!"  She also put coal in SD10's stocking a few years back for xmas.  So this is a sore spot!  SD10 is a great kid, but not at all a rescuer, and does not know how to "handle" BPD mom, is just frank with her.  And, she says she loves DH ,mom, and me "the same amount," but just "need mommy more because she is my mommy!"  This neutrality and directness is very uncomfortable for mom, and I think that thus SD10 withholds some info from mom, and is perceived as not "on her side." 

SD10 really loves her mommy and loves to be close to her. 

So anyway, it is a charged situation, and I just love that kid, and want to help make it less scary for her with mommy if I can. 

[ennie]

BPD mom has been going through a time of being particularly intense about the kids loving DH and me, and is viewing our contributions to their lives as a threat.  She goes in and out of high drama around these things over the years.  And Yes, I totally get that some things are triggering to any mom or parent particularly when step parents are involved, that this is especially triggering if you have BPD, and so forth.  At this point in time, DH and I have come to the approach to always think of the kids first--not to avoid something nice for them to avoid hurting mom's feelings, while doing our best to support mom in doing good things for the kids even if we need to flex a little (ie, we allowed mom to have kids during DH's time to go to an important family thing for the first time in years as it was important, we felt, for the kids and without help, she would not be able to do it).  As a SM of 7 years, I do not any longer avoid closeness with the girls because it might hurt mom--the kids and I decide how close feels right, and mom and the kids can deal with their own relationship. 

That said, there have been some very angry outbursts by BPD mom in front of the kids about positive experiences they are having with us, and particularly with me. 

The last one is that yesterday, SD10 mentioned to mom she was going to have a special afternoon with me, and mom got totally triggered (understandably) and sent raging texts to DH about how all our fun this summer is bad for the kids, etc. 

So I am feeling like I might want to talk with SD10 about it... .but do not want to put her in a loyalty bind with mom.  I would say something like, "You know, sometimes when your sister gets to do something really fun and you do not, you have hurt feelings?  Well, I think your mom is feeling a little bit that way about some of the fun trips we have had this summer.  And I wanted to tell you that because you know how when your sister comes back from something really fun and how it feels kind of bad to hear her talk about it a lot?  Well, I wanted to let you know that your mom might feel a little left out before you see her, so you can decide if you want to talk a lot about the fun trips with her or not. I am not thinking you should not tell her, but just do not want you to be surprised if she has a little bit of hurt feelings. Does that make sense?"

What I am trying to avoid is SD10 going to mom's and enthusing about our recent time together, and getting raged at by mom.  SD10 is very thoughtful and would probably have a great solution, but at the same time, it would put her in a little bit of a loyalty bind for me to talk about mom in this way. 

SD10 is very much NOT the favorite daughter and gets mom's rage a lot.  Mom told dad in front of SD10 recently, "SD14 is not the bad one, SD10 is the BAD one!  She is a sneak, a liar, and a cheat, and a bad kid!  Watch out for her!"  She also put coal in SD10's stocking a few years back for xmas.  So this is a sore spot!  SD10 is a great kid, but not at all a rescuer, and does not know how to "handle" BPD mom, is just frank with her.  And, she says she loves DH ,mom, and me "the same amount," but just "need mommy more because she is my mommy!"  This neutrality and directness is very uncomfortable for mom, and I think that thus SD10 withholds some info from mom, and is perceived as not "on her side." 

SD10 really loves her mommy and loves to be close to her. 

So anyway, it is a charged situation, and I just love that kid, and want to help make it less scary for her with mommy if I can. 

[Matt]

Maybe you can find a way to let SD10 talk about her mom, and how her mom treats her, and you can make sure she knows you're listening, and offer ideas when SD10 tells you the problems.

I've never found it to work, when I have a mission, and the kids don't really share that mission... .

[sanemom]

Maybe you can find a way to let SD10 talk about her mom, and how her mom treats her, and you can make sure she knows you're listening, and offer ideas when SD10 tells you the problems.

I've never found it to work, when I have a mission, and the kids don't really share that mission... .

^^^  Very good point.

I need to keep reminding myself of that.

It is hard to be patient and watch things work themselves out in time... .forcing them to "see" and "understand" rarely works.

[NorthernGirl]

Hi Ennie!

I tried to let my DH have conversations about his ex with his youngest son, who has development delays. Even though he just turned 20 (yikes!) he is much less mature than that. When I came into the picture he was 12, so he has known me a long time. He will speak more openly now about his mom but I still work hard to not say much. Even though his mom rages at him if he mentions me, he just wants us all to get along so he loves to tell me stories about her and her stories about me. That usually doesn't go well with his mom, but he keeps trying. I cringe when I think of it -- but he has come to expect it and so doesn't fuss over it so much now. Sometimes the discuss after he's been yelled at helps him to process why she might have gotten so upset, and then he moves on.

DH has gotten much better at listening and just asking a few simple questions when he talks with his kids about his ex. At first, he said nothing. Then he went the other direction and started saying things that immediately went back to her. He's landed in a better spot now. I've suggested he use "what" questions (something I learned taking coaching training.) What do you think? What might work? What did that feel like?

If you do have the conversation, I would let your SD guide how much she wants to share.

[ennie]

Well, I did not see all of your replies before I had some alone time with SD10, so I just checked in with myself, making sure this was not just my needs being met, but some sense that she might benefit.  Also, I have a very close relationship with SD10--I have been her SM with DH having 50% custody since here 3rd birthday, so while I REALLY want to avoid loyalty binds for her, in her mind I am also a close parent.  I have never been in competition with mom, do not want a mom role and she knows it, so I am just a third parent category in her mind who is not a threat to her love for mom.  She knows I totally support her being close to mommy and daddy and that my love is unconditional.  So she is open to occasional insight from me.

So I had sort of hinted before she called her mom the day before that she did not need to lay out the details of our time together for mom, so I just asked her, ":)o you know why I said that before you called your mommy yesterday?" and she said, "Yes, because you were worried mommy would feel left out, because sometimes she does."  and I said, "Yep.  I want you to know that I think you should tell your mommy anything you want to, because she is your mom and you really love her."  Her: "You just want to make sure I know that it might hurt her feelings."  "Yes.  Mostly, parents just want you to have a great time no matter who you are with, but sometimes we get hurt feelings.  And I guess I was just a little afraid you would not know that it might have that affect and that you would get a reaction you did not expect, that would hurt your feelings.  But you are getting older now, and you kind of know how you want to handle these things."  "Yep.  And I really had fun!  Mommy seemed okay with it."  "That's great!  I think I was treating you more like a little kid than you are... .I did not need to say this stuff, you know what you are doing!"   (then she changed the subject, a record length of her being interested in a conversation about something potentially uncomfortable.)

While I did not "need" to bring it up, it felt validating to her awareness.  One of the things I notice is that with SD14, we "broke" some of the rules about talking about hard stuff, partly because she was very extreme at times in her parroting mom, and alienated speech, which clearly was not how she felt... .but she would push it to a point that made us willing to say uncomfortable things.  I notice that though enmeshed and pretending she does not know, she has much more awareness of her dynamics with mom.  She does not state this with regard to mom, but "people."  EG, "I tend to do too much for people and do not remember to think about what I want" or "Sometimes people cannot really express what they want and need but blame a lot, and I have a hard time not trying to make it better for them, even when it is not good for me."  

SD14 asked questions at 9 or 10 like "Why is my mom so angry all the time?" and, ":)o you like my mom?"  

SD10 is not so enmeshed and not as interested in covering up for mom, but is also not as aware of her dynamic with mom or her feelings about the hard things.  

After the second round of custody litigation, SD14 stopped asking the hard questions; she was told WAY TMI about the case from mom's point of view, which is that we are out to take the kids away from mom and constantly gathering info about her... .not true, DH has only asked for 50/50, and while at times we WISHED we were better at documenting stuff, we did not and now we consciously do not think or act that way.  But that put an end to her trusting us to be "impartial" and answer her Q's about mom.  

I have always seen it as several different axiis.  The "rule" about not talking about mom relates to two axiis:  the child's self esteem, as they identify with mom and so any "negative" about her feels bad and hurts them; and the other parents' (particularly step-parents) relationship with them--depending on how close you are, this can make them reject you, or just creates terrible anxiety for a kid in a loyalty bind.  

But there is a third and important axis, which is the child's perception of reality and access to their own experience of very extreme events.  IMO, this really impacts how traumatic events are, and how much power the child has to shape his/her experience. There is a great article on "mentalizing" I will try to find and reference, which is about how kids become self-aware and able to deal with hard feelings if parents talk about their own feelings and the child's feelings and experience. When the kids hear one story about life all the time--"People are mean, poor me"--from mom, they think this is just true.  But if they come to understand that there are many stories, that mom's is just one of many, and that it is reasonable based on her life experience, they have more freedom to access their own feelings and make choices.  

There are many ways that I see the kids learning these things:  probably the most powerful is ME and DH owning our own feelings and responsibility and perceptions.  "I feel angry.  That is not your doing, even if I am angry at you."  "I really love you.  You do not need to love me back or treat me any particular way for that to be true."  A second important thing is to listen to and validate the kids feelings:  "Wow, that sounds really hard." A third way is to help kids to know their feelings.  "What does your heart feel when you say that?  What feelings do you have in your body?" or "Sometimes people say they hate something when they feel REALLY angry.  Are you angry at your sister right now?"  "Other feelings people have when they say that are feeling powerless, frustrated (which means when something is in your way and you are angry because you can't move forward), and hurt."   My SDs really eat up this information and use it.  It is a huge relief for SD10, who is not as verbal and expressive as SD14, to have ideas about what she is feeling. She has become expert at taking a minute to listen to herself and then say, "I actually feel REALLY angry at my sister right now. And hurt.  And maybe a little bit sad."  

And a final tool is talking about others--about how I feel when something happens, and about what I think might be causing that--empathizing.  Because this last one risks some trust in my relationship with the kids, and can hurt their self-esteem, I proceed with caution.  Should a step-parent do this?  For me, I have chosen not to address big questions about parents choices--if SD14 says, "Why can't I live with mommy all the time?", that is daddy's to answer, I have no authority there.  Or "Why can't daddy and mommy get along?"  

But if SD14 is asking, "Why do you hate mommy?" or sobbing because of something mommy said, or when I witness mom losing it at me in front of the kids, I feel willing to go there at times (almost never after custody litigation).  To me, the keys are to 1) make sure I am not judging or blaming mom covertly or overtly; and 2) make sure I am willing to be rejected, and that it is a safe time for the kids to reject me.  Before litigation, I really could say, "Sometimes your mom has a hard time with intense feelings, and it is simpler to think I hate her than to feel difficult feelings.  But that is not something I feel, that is the way your mom thinks about me to make her feelings easier to handle."  

Or when when something mom did really hurt one of them, saying, "When that happens, I feel angry at your mom for saying that to you.  I know that she probably did that because she felt really hurt. My anger is not her fault.  But that is how I feel right at this moment."  I am modeling that it is okay to feel anger without blaming someone.  

I think that mostly, the kids' self esteem and having safe relationships with all parents is a top priority, especially as BPD moms can threaten both of these things for kids.  But in my opinion, there are times when the child's sense of what is real is being compromised, when they feel like mom's reality makes no sense whatsoever, that they need another point of view.  One that can make mom okay while still making their feelings okay and reasonable.  

With SD14, she is initiating that kind of conversation in the area of sexuality, as she is aware that mom was abused and is very controlling about this stuff as a result.  We had a great talk about how mom's fears are totally reasonable given her life experience, but not based on SD14's experience.  That SD14 really is willing to listen to and abide by mom's limits and our limits, but that she is also aware of not wanting to think someone is bad because they have a different experience.  She is really wanting not to feel ashamed or bad because of her own feelings, and she is able to actually express that.  With her, it is so helpful to hear from another grownup that mom is not unreasonable for herself, but that this may not be the best lens to apply to her own experience.  

It is so great to have step kids who can think this deeply and be this self aware, and I think it is partly due to really being able to talk about the hard stuff instead of avoiding the other risks.  It is also that I personally have made a concious choice at times to risk their liking me to be able to give them another way of seeing things, while NOT making mom wrong.  

And that is a real benefit of being a step-parent.  When dad does the talking, the kids have to "choose" between dad's opinion and moms, which is a loyalty bind.  

But when I do the talking, they can be loyal to mom and not like me in the moment, but still take in the information . Then, later, they get to see if that is how THEY feel, it becomes not dad's or mom's, but THEIR idea.  I just have to be aware of not trying to claim authority where I do not have it, to not claim to know mom better than I do, and to not act like I am a decision maker in areas where I am not.  But if I stick to my own opinions and feelings and identify them as such, I have found that occasionally breaking the "never talk about mom if you are stepmom" rule has been enormously productive in terms of the kids' ability to develop their own sense of the world.  And, at this phase in our relationship, while it has affected their trust in some ways particularly after litigation, they both are very loving and very close friends/relations, so it seems like it worked out so far!

[Panda39]

I really appreciated hearing your story.  You were able to articulate some things that I have been thinking about. 

My SO's D13 just came back from camp and I plan on making a scrapbook with her as a mommento I'm hoping this will become a tradition.

I invited her to do this with me last year and as soon as uDPDmom got wind of it she told D13 that she wanted to do that with her.  Putting the D13 in the middle because she already accepted my invitation.  So dad came up with a compromise and we put extra blank pages in the book so she and her mom could do some pages together and add them to the book.  After all the drama mom never did any  . 

Anyway my guess was that she was jealous of the time I spent with her daughter and I was hoping this year D13 would keep the conversation about it at a minimum with mom and wondering if she gets that it might hurt mom's feelings.  Unfortunately, the other side of this is a mom that has no boundaries and must know every little thing the kids are doing, thinking, when, with who and pumps them for every detail of information, making it hard for the kids to use discretion because she's asking them for information so they of course answer.  I wish I could have a conversation like you did but don't think my relationship is close enough to go there yet.

Your step-daughters are lucky to have you 

[thinkingtooslowly]

Ennie,

Thank you for your insightful posts.  I always enjoy reading your perspective because you seem so open-minded and accepting.  I am in a similar situation as you- my SO has a uBPDex with whom he has young son (7).  SO has primary custody, originally it was 50/50, but after a consistent pattern of poor life choices and a suicide attempt, he took primary (she has him EOW).  Mom's life schpiel is like your pwBPD, "poor me, everyone is mean, it's not fair, it's not my fault, etc".  She has no filters whatsoever, and if she is upset, which she is frequently, she cries to SS, and tells him all her life problems.   When this happens SS comes back upset, saying he misses his mom.  He is not emotionally articulate, but we finally figured out that this meant mom was upset/crying when he was with her, and he is worried about her.   Otherwise he comes back in a normal mood, and doesn't say he misses her or talks about her at all.

SO and I really want him to realize that her responses are not normal for life situations, and we want him to see that she is not a victim, that she brings this on herself most of the time.   I will be honest here.  I really detest this woman.  I NEVER say anything bad about her though in front of SS.  Neither does SO.   SO is really struggling with how to talk to SS about her.   We don't want to validate her behavior in any way... .how to let him know that he can still love his mom, but that he should realize that how she acts is not because people are mean?

For my own self, how do I stop hating his mom?  It is so hard for me to feel sorry for her, because she is so selfish, and causes us so many problems.

[Matt]

For my own self, how do I stop hating his mom?  It is so hard for me to feel sorry for her, because she is so selfish, and causes us so many problems.

For me what works best is getting distance, so I just don't think about her.

I couldn't do that all at once, and it was harder when the kids were smaller.  (My youngest is now 16.)

Now I rarely see her, rarely talk to her on the phone, and never text.  E-mails maybe a couple times a month, and even that is becoming unnecessary.  She's just not a part of my life, except when her behavior causes problems for the kids, and then I sometimes need to do some coaching or just listening.

[livednlearned]

I agree with thinkingtooslowly and everyone else, Ennie -- your posts are always so thoughtful and you are so present with the girls. Being aware with them is giving them a whole other perspective on life.

I think what you say here, which is so complex but true, is really hard to communicate, and hard to do, and also super important!

But in my opinion, there are times when the child's sense of what is real is being compromised, when they feel like mom's reality makes no sense whatsoever, that they need another point of view.  One that can make mom okay while still making their feelings okay and reasonable.

I just got this a few months ago and it had a big deep effect on my son. For us, it was me providing him another point of view, and also confirming his reality. I feel so dense not realizing this earlier! My son needed an outside perspective that agreed with his reality, which is that his dad's behavior was seriously off. Just a matter-of-fact recognition, and then a different point of view, something I hadn't really done.

I will be honest here.  I really detest this woman.  I NEVER say anything bad about her though in front of SS.  Neither does SO.   SO is really struggling with how to talk to SS about her.   We don't want to validate her behavior in any way... .how to let him know that he can still love his mom, but that he should realize that how she acts is not because people are mean?

The best antidote is validating your son's feelings. Validating him, not his mom. The book Power of Validation is a good start to understand what it is, and what it isn't, especially with parenting when discipline is often involved. You're validating the feelings, just the feelings. Nothing else. "You're really upset right now, I can see that. You feel mad that you have to go to school. It's hard doing things when you don't want to. Why don't we get in the car and you tell me what you don't like about school and I'll tell you what I don't like about my job."    Ok, maybe not that last part.

It changed how I interact with people, not just my son, so it came with a bonus pack 

That means that if he says he loves his mom, you validate that he feels that way. But it's also ok to validate if he doesn't love his mom. If she just called him a terrible kid with no future and that makes him angry, that's real. A lot of parents don't want their kids to experience negative feelings, but learning to deal with negative stuff is how we develop resilience. It's also possible to validate negative feelings "I hate mom" without saying, "Me too"    You can say, "If someone treated me that way, I would feel mad too. Why do you think your mom did that? What would be a better way of responding?" Your SS just wants a witness to his feelings, someone who will validate his real self, feelings and all. Asking questions is often a safe way to keep things focused on his feelings, so you don't find yourself needing to express your feelings. Although, I think it's also appropriate at a later time to say how you feel about things (carefully). My T rocked my world when she explained that I can follow up and have a do-over when I make mistakes with this stuff. There are a lot of do-overs in my home. 

For my own self, how do I stop hating his mom?  It is so hard for me to feel sorry for her, because she is so selfish, and causes us so many problems.

These are really normal feelings when dealing with someone disordered! I agree with Matt, too, that it takes time. Distance helps, although I think you can develop emotional distance and good boundaries if physical distance isn't possible. The thing that made me shift was recognizing that I was "drinking poison, expecting the other person to die." I didn't want to carry around a thousand tons of dread and anger and hate, so I started to figure out how to let it go. I was so tired of feeling bad.

[Panda39]

I agree with thinkingtooslowly and everyone else, Ennie -- your posts are always so thoughtful and you are so present with the girls. Being aware with them is giving them a whole other perspective on life.

I think what you say here, which is so complex but true, is really hard to communicate, and hard to do, and also super important!

But in my opinion, there are times when the child's sense of what is real is being compromised, when they feel like mom's reality makes no sense whatsoever, that they need another point of view.  One that can make mom okay while still making their feelings okay and reasonable.

I just got this a few months ago and it had a big deep effect on my son. For us, it was me providing him another point of view, and also confirming his reality. I feel so dense not realizing this earlier! My son needed an outside perspective that agreed with his reality, which is that his dad's behavior was seriously off. Just a matter-of-fact recognition, and then a different point of view, something I hadn't really done.

I will be honest here.  I really detest this woman.  I NEVER say anything bad about her though in front of SS.  Neither does SO.   SO is really struggling with how to talk to SS about her.   We don't want to validate her behavior in any way... .how to let him know that he can still love his mom, but that he should realize that how she acts is not because people are mean?

The best antidote is validating your son's feelings. Validating him, not his mom. The book Power of Validation is a good start to understand what it is, and what it isn't, especially with parenting when discipline is often involved. You're validating the feelings, just the feelings. Nothing else. "You're really upset right now, I can see that. You feel mad that you have to go to school. It's hard doing things when you don't want to. Why don't we get in the car and you tell me what you don't like about school and I'll tell you what I don't like about my job."    Ok, maybe not that last part.

It changed how I interact with people, not just my son, so it came with a bonus pack 

That means that if he says he loves his mom, you validate that he feels that way. But it's also ok to validate if he doesn't love his mom. If she just called him a terrible kid with no future and that makes him angry, that's real. A lot of parents don't want their kids to experience negative feelings, but learning to deal with negative stuff is how we develop resilience. It's also possible to validate negative feelings "I hate mom" without saying, "Me too"    You can say, "If someone treated me that way, I would feel mad too. Why do you think your mom did that? What would be a better way of responding?" Your SS just wants a witness to his feelings, someone who will validate his real self, feelings and all. Asking questions is often a safe way to keep things focused on his feelings, so you don't find yourself needing to express your feelings. Although, I think it's also appropriate at a later time to say how you feel about things (carefully). My T rocked my world when she explained that I can follow up and have a do-over when I make mistakes with this stuff. There are a lot of do-overs in my home. 

For my own self, how do I stop hating his mom?  It is so hard for me to feel sorry for her, because she is so selfish, and causes us so many problems.

These are really normal feelings when dealing with someone disordered! I agree with Matt, too, that it takes time. Distance helps, although I think you can develop emotional distance and good boundaries if physical distance isn't possible. The thing that made me shift was recognizing that I was "drinking poison, expecting the other person to die." I didn't want to carry around a thousand tons of dread and anger and hate, so I started to figure out how to let it go. I was so tired of feeling bad.

I really appreciate this post these are just some of the ideas and approaches I have been looking for since coming to this website.  I feel a lot of things but can't always articulate what it is that I need help with and this tread has touched on many of the things I struggle with.

I have kept a certain amount of distance between my SO's daughters and myself because I'm not sure how to handle what is going on in their life with uBPDmom.  I worry that I might say the wrong thing to them (because I do have strong negative feelings about their mom), I worry that they will be punished by her for any time spent with me, I am sometimes angry with the girls themselves for siding with mom against dad and hurting him (they are quite enmeshed with mom) and on the flip side I think I could be a positive person in their lives especially with the younger daughter we have a lot of common interests and I think she and I would really enjoy spending more time together pursing those interests.  I really struggle with where I belong and how to make things work with the kids and my own fear that I will somehow make things worse.

So again thank you all for sharing your approaches and ideas about step-parenting it is very helpful 

[Matt]

I have kept a certain amount of distance between my SO's daughters and myself because I'm not sure how to handle what is going on in their life with uBPDmom.  I worry that I might say the wrong thing to them (because I do have strong negative feelings about their mom), I worry that they will be punished by her for any time spent with me, I am sometimes angry with the girls themselves for siding with mom against dad and hurting him (they are quite enmeshed with mom) and on the flip side I think I could be a positive person in their lives especially with the younger daughter we have a lot of common interests and I think she and I would really enjoy spending more time together pursing those interests.  I really struggle with where I belong and how to make things work with the kids and my own fear that I will somehow make things wors.

But it may be that the kids need more of you, not less.

This is hard to figure out.  Thinking about "What does each kid need right now?" is one way to focus on it, and sometimes the answer to that might be different than what all the other factors - legal issues, the disordered adult's behavior, etc. - are telling you.

(My situation is somewhat different.  I have two stepkids, and both of them treat me as one of their two parents.  SS35's biodad left when he was little, and hasn't been in touch since, so SS calls me ":)ad" and treats me in every way like his father.  SD25's biodad spent regular time with her when she was little - she always called him ":)ad" and me "Matt" - but that tapered off, and now I don't think he's been in touch with her for many years, so when she says "my parents" she means her mother and me.  In both cases, I deal with them as I deal with my biokids - I play the "dad" role and view the fact that I'm a stepparent not a bioparent as completely irrelevant.  So when I hear someone say, "Well I'm a stepparent so I have to know my place.", that sounds wrong to me.  But that's mostly because both my stepkids in effect have no biodad... .)

[Panda39]

Been thinking... .I am "walking on eggshells".   (such an apt expression)

Maybe I just need to stop doing the eggshell shuffle and be myself and deal with things when they happen versus worrying about what might happen.  Your right Matt "what does each kid need right now?"  I just need to be my authentic self like I am with my own son.  I think I've been trying to figure out how to be perfect for my SO's daughters but guess what I'm not and never will be!  However, I can do my best just like I do with my son. 

I have also been reading the "Power of Validation" that livedandlearned mentioned earlier and it is a great tool and has reinforced some things I already knew.

I think I'll wade in a little further into the step kid pool and see what happens.   www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvCI-gNK_y4 

[Matt]

Yeah, that's the challenge - to be yourself, all the time, and at the same time learn about validation and other stuff the wise people here (including those on this thread!) teach - and bring all that to bear, to help each child in the way in the way she needs at the moment.

I think for most of us, that means learning the tools, and shifting our attention from the disordered adult to the kids and their needs.  It's hard, because the disordered adult is so demanding of attention, and frankly sometimes so interesting - us guys especially tend to love a fight - that it's easy to lose track of where the kids are at... .

[Panda39]

I think for most of us, that means learning the tools, and shifting our attention from the disordered adult to the kids and their needs.  It's hard, because the disordered adult is so demanding of attention, and frankly sometimes so interesting - us guys especially tend to love a fight - that it's easy to lose track of where the kids are at... .

This is so right on  I might just put this in my pocket as a reminder   

[NorthernGirl]

I think for most of us, that means learning the tools, and shifting our attention from the disordered adult to the kids and their needs.  It's hard, because the disordered adult is so demanding of attention, and frankly sometimes so interesting - us guys especially tend to love a fight - that it's easy to lose track of where the kids are at... .

Well put, Matt. I think I should have this tattooed on my arm.  Okay, maybe that's a little extreme. But I need to have that pop in my head when we are dealing with challenges. Focus on the kids and their needs, not the disordered adult who is seeking attention.

[Matt]

So to complete the hijack, here's an e-mail from my ex, just this morning:

Matt:  thought you might be interested in working the polls on 8/26 & 11/4.  It pays $120 each election and is only one day of work for each election, (a very long day.)  Just contact [name] at e-mail.state.gov if you are interested.

Ex

Now... .if I want to work at the polls, I can pick up the phone and volunteer.  In fact, I've worked at the polls before, and I've already signed up to work at the election in a few weeks.  Why on earth my ex-wife feels the need to suggest that to me now is beyond me.  I could easily theorize, or send her a snarky response.

My answer:

Thanks – I’m on their list for the primary.

And... .pivot back to what the kids are up to, and what I can fix for dinner... .

[Panda39]

Matt your post made me laugh.

My SO's uBPDex does that all the time it's like the old Bell Telephone ads... ."Reach out, Reach out and touch someone, Reach out and just say Hi!"

[thinkingtooslowly]

Such interesting and thoughtful replies here.  I have mostly lurked in this forum and have found it so helpful.  Thanks to all who have responded and added to this thread.

I really do need to not let my negative feelings about SO's ex hold me back from connecting with SS7.  It is tricky for me.  I am a very anti-drama person and my lifelong tendency is to be the most judgmental about entitled people who burden others with their drama.  Before I even met SO my biggest fear for my own bio-DDs was that they grow up to feel the world owes them everything... .so SO's ex-wife's behavior is a yucky trigger for me.  

I think it would be almost easier if SO's ex was mean to SS7 (that sounds awful!), because then it would seem more straightforward to validate his feelings that she had been negative to him.  Her issues are more that she has rules or boundaries for him, talks to him like an adult, exposes him to every emotional issue he has, has threatened to kill herself when he can hear her, etc.  Very BPD Waif.  He thinks everyone has just treated her horribly and he needs to protect her because that's how she acts.   I want him to know that it is not ok that she burden him with her problems, and it is not his job to take care of her.  How?

Thanks for the book recommendations.  :)efinitely going to look into the Validation one.  I am glad that SO deals with her exclusively though, I don't think I could be as non-responsive to her as he is.  I am impressed at how well you guys with exes on here deal with them!

[thinkingtooslowly]

... .post should say she has NO boundaries or rules for him

[Panda39]

I want him to know that it is not ok that she burden him with her problems, and it is not his job to take care of her.  How?

I worry about just this type of thing too.  How can we (or can we ?) help the kids develop healthy boundaries and a sense of self not enmeshed with mom?  And if they do start demonstrating their own opinions and boundaries what is the cost to them and if they don't learn to be their own selves what is the cost? 

I think the best thing my SO has done was divorce and create a separate household that demonstrates a healthier way of living for his daughters.  Lately my SO has been kind of been letting his daughters take the lead.  He has made it clear to them that they can vent if they need to and nothing will go back to mom (unless dangerous) and he makes himself available to his daughters via phone and text when they are with mom to try and help them negotiate some of their issues as they arise.  The good thing if you can call it that is that his daughters D13 & D17 recognize that mom has problems and are beginning to talk to him about it.  Unfortunately D17 thinks she can out smart/manipulate mom (a behavior learned from mom) and the two of them are in a sick using circle right now... .daughter using/manipulating mom, mom using/manipulating daughter for things they want/need.  D13 seems to be handling things in a healthier way more open and honest.  The really hard part for me is watching when you know the kids will be hurt by moms failure to come through on her "super-fantastic" promises.  (She has promised several trips this summer and has failed at some succeeded at others)  Last weekend was really funny though mom promised a trip to New England and of course it was a no go.  Dad texted younger daughter "so how is your trip to New England... .LOL"  she thought it was funny and texted back "HaHa great I can see (described what was out the window at mom's house)"  I see this a a really positive little moment for D13 she no longer automatically believes so is not disappointed as often and can even joke about some of the nuttiness with her dad. (There used to be a lot of... ."we have to protect mom"  and that doesn't happen quite as often) 

Maybe your step-son will come to realize more as he gets older too.  I hope so.  Just support your SO and create an alternate universe for your step-son.  I often find it insightful to read some of the posts from children of BPD parents too.  What would they have wanted from a caring adult when they were kids.  One thing someone posted was that they just "wanted someone to tell them it wasn't their fault". That statement really has stuck with me so I'm reading about validation.  Validate without judging... .working on this.


My SO's ex is Queen/Waif so I sure do get the "poor, poor, pitiful me!" until she becomes Ms. Superfantastic and then fails and becomes "poor, poor, pitiful me!"... .and on the cycle goes.

[thinkingtooslowly]

I want him to know that it is not ok that she burden him with her problems, and it is not his job to take care of her.  How?

I see this a a really positive little moment for D13 she no longer automatically believes so is not disappointed as often and can even joke about some of the nuttiness with her dad. (There used to be a lot of... ."we have to protect mom"  and that doesn't happen quite as often) 


**That's good that she is able to do that.  I hope SS comes to that point as well.**

Just support your SO and create an alternate universe for your step-son.  I often find it insightful to read some of the posts from children of BPD parents too. 

This is a great idea, thanks!

[Nope]

Panda,

I sometimes also struggle with worries about making things worse. I often find the best way to combat these feelings is simply to remind myself that if the kids are ever in a loyalty bind between me and there mom, I will always lose. It's not their fault. They are kids and she is mom. But knowing that is always a losing battle helps make me even more careful about what I say and more mindful of the need to develop strong relationships with the kids that will help them remember that they do still like/love me even when their mom is forcing them to choose her.

I also remind myself that without me SD11's only female roll model is her BPD mom. Spending time with me and seeing how I navigate the world and treat others is her best chance of learning important skills. I might only be a step mom, but I never doubt that I am critically needed whether she is in a mood to be happy about that or not.

I also lurk on the Childen of BPD Parents board quite a bit. Huge help.

[Panda39]

I often find the best way to combat these feelings is simply to remind myself that if the kids are ever in a loyalty bind between me and there mom, I will always lose. It's not their fault. They are kids and she is mom.

Hi Nope,

Yep, I know I will always lose too and honestly I would rather lose than have them suffer because of an interaction with me.

I also remind myself that without me SD11's only female roll model is her BPD mom. Spending time with me and seeing how I navigate the world and treat others is her best chance of learning important skills. I might only be a step mom, but I never doubt that I am critically needed whether she is in a mood to be happy about that or not.

Yes, this is very true I try to be this way too... .the BPD mom antidote   

[ennie]

I wanted to address the "how do I stop hating his mom" question. A big one for all of us!

So here are my two big insights on this. 1) hatred is not really a feeling but the combination of projection and two actual feelings: anger and powerlessness. 2) in order to grow and move through a feeling we have to actually feel it rather than projecting it.

A useful idea/definition of projection is when a feeling if have is so uncomfortable or unacceptable to me that I put it outside of myself mostly in the form of blame. So a way around that is to be willing to know and experience my feelings. It does not matter what the other person is doing, my feelings are always my own.

For me, the kids' mom's actions trigger the feeling of powerlessness often! Reading about people who have experienced trauma, I know that her "narrative" or trauma stories are likely to be harder to change, more impervious to new info than mine. Makes sense--"fire is hot" is way more meaningful as a kid after you burn your hand! And her child experience had  lot of startling pain that calcified her way of experiencing others.

So I AM less powerful to influence her. And, when she hurts the kids or is raging at me or dh without provocation when I am patient and good to her, I feel angry. I also have some sadness over and hopelessness around all the effort I put into her for the kids that she does not perceive.

So my job is to allow myself to feel that in my body. As I write this, my eyes tear up. I feel vulnerable and sad. And then, I suddenly empathize... .wow, if she is that painful for me, imagine how hard it is to be her! She cannot be swept out of her misery by the kindness of others or by a beautiful sight.

I also look at my youngest stepdaughter and imagine her being treated the way her mom was treated ( they look a lot alike) and that is heartbreakingly inspiring of empathy.

I guess the biggest trick for me to not be consumed by anger is just accepting I have little power to impact BPDmom. I cannot help her through the horrible abuse she was subjected to as aclittle girl, I can't help her to be happier, I can't help her stop telling her kids they are bad people, I can't stop her from racing at dh and I. But that's life. And where I do have power is more important ot me anyway! I have the ability to help the kids know they are loved, liked, and good people. I have the power to love myself. And dh! I have the power and freedom to walk away when someone treAts me bad, or to address it without hatred. I have the power to love people who are difficult for me just because I want to. And that is a great antidote to the feeling of powerlessness that is the main ingredient of my hatred.

[ennie]

I have kept a certain amount of distance between my SO's daughters and myself because I'm not sure how to handle what is going on in their life with uBPDmom.  I worry that I might say the wrong thing to them (because I do have strong negative feelings about their mom), I worry that they will be punished by her for any time spent with me, I am sometimes angry with the girls themselves for siding with mom against dad and hurting him (they are quite enmeshed with mom) and on the flip side I think I could be a positive person in their lives especially with the younger daughter we have a lot of common interests and I think she and I would really enjoy spending more time together pursing those interests.  I really struggle with where I belong and how to make things work with the kids and my own fear that I will somehow make things wors.

Matt, your encouragement has really helped me over the years, so part of my awareness about that my SDs might need more of me not less I learned from you!  So I love that you are saying this to others. 

I just want to say that I think listening closely to ourselves when we have a fear of saying something or "going there" is a really useful practice.  What are our concerns and values behind the fear?  Panda's fears are really sensible--there is a real risk that speaking something a kid has a lot of pain about related to a primary parent runs the risk of harming your relationship with them.  But it is also true that being willing to face risky situations with our whole hearts in relationships is what creates depth and trust in relationships.  In those early times in my relationship with my SDs I also had the fear that not speaking would mean they never questioned what was happening, and never got to say or feel how THEY felt.  So I wanted to make that space, and also wanted to avoid hurting my relationship with them and avoid hurting their self esteem or whatever safety and comfort they did feel with a mom who is often not safe feeling or comfortable feeling. 

The point here is that all these fears point to real risks and real desires on my part, and if I listen to them I can do my best to formulate a response or approach that is my best shot at stewarding all three wants I have for the kids.  I think it is true that often the scariest places to go as a step-parent or dad/non, particularly with a BPD mom, are often the most important places we have to help the kids out, but all the fear we have about it is really helpful in treading lightly and taking all these important feelings of our stepchildren in mind.  There really are no shortcuts.  And timing is a lot of it, for sure. 

But it may be that the kids need more of you, not less.

This is hard to figure out.  Thinking about "What does each kid need right now?" is one way to focus on it, and sometimes the answer to that might be different than what all the other factors - legal issues, the disordered adult's behavior, etc. - are telling you.

(My situation is somewhat different.  I have two stepkids, and both of them treat me as one of their two parents.  SS35's biodad left when he was little, and hasn't been in touch since, so SS calls me ":)ad" and treats me in every way like his father.  SD25's biodad spent regular time with her when she was little - she always called him ":)ad" and me "Matt" - but that tapered off, and now I don't think he's been in touch with her for many years, so when she says "my parents" she means her mother and me.  In both cases, I deal with them as I deal with my biokids - I play the "dad" role and view the fact that I'm a stepparent not a bioparent as completely irrelevant.  So when I hear someone say, "Well I'm a stepparent so I have to know my place.", that sounds wrong to me.  But that's mostly because both my stepkids in effect have no biodad... .)

[ennie]

I want him to know that it is not ok that she burden him with her problems, and it is not his job to take care of her.  How?

My SO's ex is Queen/Waif so I sure do get the "poor, poor, pitiful me!" until she becomes Ms. Superfantastic and then fails and becomes "poor, poor, pitiful me!"... .and on the cycle goes.

Just wanted to say my SD's mom is also a queen/waif (waif/queen?), so a similar dynamic.  In reading the "Children of Borderline Mothers" book from whence these labels derive, I was really struck by the need to help support kids on not thinking life is "too hard" or unfair if raised with a waif, and the need to validate their dreams and importance when raised with a queen.  But yes, we have so many similar dynamics!  so it is particularly interesting to hear your 3-years-older stepchildren's experience, as I am with SD's 10 and 14.

[ennie]

Panda,

I sometimes also struggle with worries about making things worse. I often find the best way to combat these feelings is simply to remind myself that if the kids are ever in a loyalty bind between me and there mom, I will always lose. It's not their fault. They are kids and she is mom. But knowing that is always a losing battle helps make me even more careful about what I say and more mindful of the need to develop strong relationships with the kids that will help them remember that they do still like/love me even when their mom is forcing them to choose her.

I also remind myself that without me SD11's only female roll model is her BPD mom. Spending time with me and seeing how I navigate the world and treat others is her best chance of learning important skills. I might only be a step mom, but I never doubt that I am critically needed whether she is in a mood to be happy about that or not.

I also lurk on the Childen of BPD Parents board quite a bit. Huge help.

I have a little different take on this, because while the kids might see me or mom as winning or loosing (based often on mom's black/white thinking and HER placing them in a loyalty bind), I do not think of them choosing mom as me losing.  I think of it as them doing what is healthy for a child, which is supporting a person they identify with (mom) before they are ready to have their own sense of identity.  I am not mom, and I lose nothing by them doing this.  And, if I can support their best effort to be basically true to themselves, I win because they feel good and then probably have a better relationship with every other person-who-is-not-mom in their lives, including me. 

For mom, the kids loving other people is a loss.  For the kids, it is not.  That is where the loyalty bind comes from--in our case, at least. 

So I see my job as broadening the perspective to a full spectrum of colors, not just black and white.  It is not about them not choosing mom, but about them having the freedom to love mom and other people too.  Because the reason they are in the bind is because THEY love all of us, but mom's love is the most conditional so they need to meet the conditions!  So I want to defuse the bind, give them more freedom, by being willing to be loved or not loved, that it is their choice, and I know they love their mom no matter what.

[ennie]

Sorry for so many posts!  I am doing a lot of replying as I have not been here in awhile. 

I want to relate an experience this morning with my SD14 that really illustrates this! 

First, I want to say I am grateful for the hijack, as for me this is the kind of discussion that is so healing and helpful and useful, much more so than just getting advice on a particular situation in a particular moment.  So thanks, all!

The detailed account of this morning is available here https://bpdfamily.com/message_board/index.php?topic=230942.0.

But here is a summary.  SD14 is finally starting to really be able to be aware of the stories she has created about her childhood and that she holds onto them to prevent herself from feeling the pain of seeing her parent's violent conflict as a kid.  She can actually feel and say this to me.  It is really amazing.  She is not willing to own that the story she holds (everything was perfect growing up until daddy left mommy, it is his fault) is mom's story... .but this morning she was able to tell me with utter heartwrenching honesty that she wants to hold the story of daddy making bacon and waking in mommy's arms and the three of them happily eating breakfast because it is too painful to feel how she feels about their conflict and what it was really like, because she needs that dream for her future. 

It is like she suddenly was able to open the lid of this box she closed tight when 7 or 8. 

We had a great talk about how if she needs those stories, I would never want to take them away, and I trust her to hold onto what is good and safe for her.  But that as she gets older and finds herself doing things like what her mom and dad did back then, or relating to others  like them, she might need more information about why and how people act like that, and so it is good to have access to those memories when needed, even if they hurt too much now. 

Though it really scared her to admit that she is choosing to basically hold a false story (and this was all her words, I was SOO careful to not say her story was wrong, just asking what about what I was saying was scary, stuff like that... .and WHAT it threatened when I said things about holding onto blame for how your life is turning out... .), she really trusted me with that information and trusted herself in a way that really amazed me. 

I feel like I am seeing the result of really trying hard to walk that line between not saying things that are painful and threatening to this young girl I love, but also to not abandon my sense of the truth or run from her anger at me, but to meet it. 

This morning really started off not by me talking about her mom, but by her being angry at me because she did not grow up with farm animals, and me having the presence of mind and willingness to hear her to ask, "What is it that angers you about me right now?  Why are these feelings happing right at the moment?" and "when I say what I said, how does that threaten your idea about it?  What is at risk of being harmed by the idea that you do not have to hold onto the past?" 

Just walking into the anger in a curious way. 

So I guess it is not just being willing to say the hard things, but allowing are kids to say the hard things to us. 

At any rate, I think my SD14 is learning to do what I am learning to do here, which is to listen to my fears and respect them. I am afraid of hurting her, so I let her know I have that fear.  And she is afraid of feeling really painful feelings about her parents, so I can respect that and not ask her to adopt a position or remember things that might hurt until she is ready. 

A lot of the "answers" for me come from listening deeply to our own instincts and trusting the kids to know what is best for them, but in a deeper way that what comes out of their mouths. I have just developed so much trust that the hard ways the kids deal with mom are really a great effort to deal with impossible things. 

One of the things SD14 said this morning is that mom and dad were busy fighting, and she had no one to talk to about her experience... .that they were talking to each other, arguing and saying their side, but that she did not have anyone to help her figure out how she saw it, or how to make sense of the fighting and her painful feelings about it, so she made a story that everything was fine and perfect. 

I just so want her to know that she did a great job in an impossibly hard and lonely situation at a really young age, and that I totally trust her to use that tool as long as she needs it and let it go when she does not. 

I think that combination of trusting ourselvess--our wants for the kids, our fears, and our desire to speak up-- as well as trusting the kids (and their desire not to have someone talk bad about mom or dad, their feelings, their ability to deal with hard things I might need or want to say) is just a great recipe for helping them through these hard things.  The tools of validating and listening are great, but the underpinnings of really valuing who they are and who we are is the heart of those tools, and there are so many other tools available that stem from that trust and care. 

[Panda39]

So I see my job as broadening the perspective to a full spectrum of colors, not just black and white.  It is not about them not choosing mom, but about them having the freedom to love mom and other people too.  Because the reason they are in the bind is because THEY love all of us, but mom's love is the most conditional so they need to meet the conditions!  So I want to defuse the bind, give them more freedom, by being willing to be loved or not loved, that it is their choice, and I know they love their mom no matter what.

I really like this  I recognize that I can think in Black and White terms sometimes myself so this is a good reminder for me as well and a nice way to approach things with the kids.

I think what we all want to do is have the best relationship we can with the kids without creating additional problems/drama for them with their moms.   

So besides being another adult role model and friend, I think flexiblity is key and making the child's needs your priority however that looks.  I think what we were talking about earlier in the thread really isn't necessarily about letting the BPD mom "win" it's more about knowing when to backdown or stand up for something in the interest of the child.

[thinkingtooslowly]

I do not think of them choosing mom as me losing.  I think of it as them doing what is healthy for a child, which is supporting a person they identify with (mom) before they are ready to have their own sense of identity.  I am not mom, and I lose nothing by them doing this.  And, if I can support their best effort to be basically true to themselves, I win because they feel good and then probably have a better relationship with every other person-who-is-not-mom in their lives, including me. 

I think I just need to remind myself of this frequently, otherwise I am going to make myself crazy over this woman.

Unlike some BPD people on here, SO's ex-wife does not have a history of trauma.  Her parents were more benignly neglectful, but as far as SO knows, BPDex has never been abused or anything.  I'm not sure why, because she obviously is suffering constantly, abused or not, but this makes me feel less sorry for her, like she has no excuse for being a jerk or something.   I think part of my issue is that I am very independent, and I am deeply uncomfortable asking anyone for help, or putting encumbrances on people on my behalf, so I have pretty strong loathing for anyone who feels entitled to ___ on everyone around them because they think they are owed something.  So there is this powerful feeling of wanting SS to see this about his mom, realize she is not a good person, etc.  I get irritated when I hear him defend her to SO.  I know these are terrible thoughts I have.  I recognize that, and am capable of controlling what I say to SS.  But I want to not feel like this, I know it is not healthy.

So thank you Ennie, for your productive thoughts on this.  I just need to keep reminding myself that this isn't about me.  As far as I can tell, SS likes me just fine.  As crazy as BPDex is, she doesn't seem to run an alienation campaign against SO or I, although she periodically slips with something negative about SO that SS parrots back.  This is fairly rare, so that's good.   I also am very glad that SS is a boy, and not a girl, and that his primary role model will be SO, who has primary custody.  I imagine that must be very hard for your SDs, and they are lucky to have you, Ennie.   BPDex has major unhealthy body and appearance issues (starves herself, extreme tanning, spends hours every day on make-up, etc.), and I think it would have been devastating if SS had been a girl.