Distant phone calls with S(8)

[Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse...]

 Is this a sign of parental alienation?

The same kid you saw a week ago, that couldn't have enough of you, has nothing to say to his dad a few days when with his mother. No emotion, no happiness or anger in his tone. One word answers. And should I talk to him and how?

Or he in survival mode?


This has been going on for months

Thanks,

Arn

[arn131arn]

 Is this a sign of parental alienation?

The same kid you saw a week ago, that couldn't have enough of you, has nothing to say to his dad a few days when with his mother. No emotion, no happiness or anger in his tone. One word answers. And should I talk to him and how?

Or he in survival mode?


This has been going on for months

Thanks,

Arn

[mywifecrazy]

Is this a sign of parental alienation?

The same kid you saw a week ago, that couldn't have enough of you, has nothing to say to his dad a few days when with his mother. No emotion, no happiness or anger in his tone. One word answers. And should I talk to him and how?

Or he in survival mode?


This has been going on for months

Thanks,

Arn

That's got to be tough for you as his Dad to see him like that. It hurts as a Father to see your son hurting and feel like there's nothing you can do to help him.

My younger son is 9. I have primary custody of him but he still gets upset with his Mom for leaving us. What works for me is just letting him know how much his Dad loves him and that I will ALWAYS be there for him. I also,re-assure him that I will never leave him. I think it helps him to know that life with me is stable and it helps him not to worry too much.  I also go,out of my way to get him involved with friends and activities like sports and sleepovers so he can just be a kid and not have to constantly worried about his Mom or adult problems. Just be the best Dad there is and show him with your actions how much you love him.

Hang in there Arn!

MWC... .

[arn131arn]

I get all that. I'm doing it. I coached his LL team this year and we made it to the championship game, when he's at my house he has a friend that he lets sleep over or he sleeps out.

He is constantly doing stuff with kids his age, but it's like he's deprogrammed the second he is with her.

He also told me that mommy doesn't talk to him sometimes after she's mad. I asked how long does it stay that way. He said all day.

I couldn't handle her silent treatment at 37 how in the Holy Name of Jesus can he deal with that at 8?

Thanks,

Arn

[Turkish]

I get all that. I'm doing it. I coached his LL team this year and we made it to the championship game, when he's at my house he has a friend that he lets sleep over or he sleeps out.

He is constantly doing stuff with kids his age, but it's like he's deprogrammed the second he is with her.

He also told me that mommy doesn't talk to him sometimes after she's mad. I asked how long does it stay that way. He said all day.

I couldn't handle her silent treatment at 37 how in the Holy Name of Jesus can he deal with that at 8?

Arn, this is a tough one, seeing your son be affected by her disordered behaviors. I think you know you can't communicate this with her, as you are as LC as you can be. It sounds like she may be engaged in a brainwashing campaign, but it also sounds like she is giving him the same silent treatment which you also experienced. At least he sounds like he is being honest with you, or you wouldn't know about the ST.

How have you been doing with validating his feelings? I started reading The Power Of Validation. A few members here recommended it. The authors seem to be kind of protoges of Marsha Linehan, the developer of DBT. I'm still n the middle of Understanding The Borderline Mother, but I will get back to the other book afterwards. It seems so far to be a great resource so far on understanding the dos and don'ts on how to talk to our kids.

It's so tough to see our kids in pain. We want to fix it, but in doing so, we skip over the most important part: letting them feel that pain, and acknowledging it. It let's them know we're listening, and sometimes that's all they need, to let them know we're down in the trenches with them, so to speak. That we understand.

How are you on your SET skills? They can work on anybody, even kids, age appropriate, of course.

[Mutt]

Hi arn,

I'm going to echo Turk with validation. It took awhile but slowly and surely I saw the progress and change with the kids each visit. All of them D8, S6 and S3. S3 is a little too young but they mirror the parent and sense how dad feels too. When I was depressed last year it was tough on the kids. I talk about mom to let them know it's not a taboo subject around the house so they talk about how they feel. I keep things light hearted, watch comedies with them, I joke around, play with them, it brings all of their spirits up including mine. They tend to be more open. It was gradual and I was consistent, it's working. What's the custody situation like? How often do you see S8? I understand the title is phone calls? I'm sorry to hear he's having a tough time. Congrats on the LL championship game!

[arn131arn]

I hand her a check That's about as far as the communication goes guys. I don't utter a

Word to him about his mother. Good

Nor bad. She doesn't exist

[arn131arn]

Hi arn,

I'm going to echo Turk with validation. It took awhile but slowly and surely I saw the progress and change with the kids each visit. All of them D8, S6 and S3. S3 is a little too young but they mirror the parent and sense how dad feels too. When I was depressed last year it was tough on the kids. I talk about mom to let them know it's not a taboo subject around the house so they talk about how they feel. I keep things light hearted, watch comedies with them, I joke around, play with them, it brings all of their spirits up including mine. They tend to be more open. It was gradual and I was consistent, it's working. What's the custody situation like? How often do you see S8? I understand the title is phone calls? I'm sorry to hear he's having a tough time. Congrats on the LL championship game!

I have him 13 nights a month. I do not cover or condone what his mother does. I tell him the truth and I don't speak a word of her... .EVER. We do everything together. She started a smear campaign at the new playground, she saw how good I was with the kids and her and her grandpa boyfriend started the degeneration. Went out to eat with several parents after a ball game and ALL asked what was wrong with them.

I said "sometimes it just doesn't work out."

I'm taking the high road. Never talk about her. Good nor bad. Let her live her venom. But I'm pissed she's manipulating my son as well as the emotional abuse.

I no longer have to accept the unacceptable!

She no longer can emotionally mind ___ me or abuse my son.

So how do you make sure their emotional state is not in jeopardy?

[whirlpoollife]

My kids are now 13 and 16. I had the same problem in the beginning. I felt the kids were afraid to talk to me freely in x2bh's presence.  It was silence.  They were also angry at me, because of h blaming me for everything etc.   I had to be careful what I said to them, even though it was nothing to do with h, just that he would grill them afterwards to find out what I was doing. 

So I read to them... .trivia, jokes, and on Sunday morning something spiritual.  That worked that they could hear my voice but not be uncomfortable "talking" with me. 

I was on vacation with kids, we were having a fun time till h called kids... .his three times a  day... .then kids were silent and unhappy.  I had to do the unprogram thing  each time.

[livednlearned]

My son did the same thing.

Your son is using a really clever coping mechanism. He might be aware that his mom can hear him, and is making sure he doesn't let slip any affection for you, otherwise she could react in ways that are hard for him. Many BPD parents put kids in loyalty binds (some non BPD parents do this too, probably). The problem is that your son is going to learn he can shut off his feelings. I let this kind of thing go too long and my son starting to numb himself -- that's one of the precursors to kids who are considered "at risk."

Not talking about your feelings, or not talking about the other parent, means your son is on his own dealing with what are probably some pretty intense feelings. BPD is confusing and often scary for adults, and can be even more so for a kid. Validation can be a profoundly effective technique to make sure parental alienation doesn't take root -- your son will know that he can be "real" with you. Real feelings that are validated by you. But erasing his mom from conversations is also going to create problems.

If you don't talk about his mom, then he thinks that's the deal. No one talks about mom. Even if he needs to -- and you're probably the only person he can talk to about her. This stuff is extremely hard for only children, I think. There's literally no one experiencing what he's experiencing. But to do this you have to be an excellent catcher's mitt. You have to let him talk, and validate how he feels. If he loves her, that's real. If he is mad at her, that's real. Your feelings are separate, and you can share them, but you have to be careful. "I admit it hurts me to hear this, but I'm glad you're telling me. It must be hard to carry this all around on your own without having someone else to talk to. I got hurt when your mom did those things too, and I never figured out how to deal." I did this with my son when we had school events -- I knew he was going to be in an intense loyalty bind because both parents were going to be there. So I talked about it beforehand. "Your dad is going to be there tonight. I'm going to be sitting with friends. I don't know where your dad is going to be, but my feelings won't be hurt if you want to go find him at intermission or after the show. Come find me when you're done."

About your specific situation with the phone: One way to open up the conversation might be to say, "Hey, I notice when we talk on the phone that you don't sound like yourself. There is no emotion in your voice. On Tuesday, we had a great time. But then we talked and I thought maybe you were mad at me. Are you doing ok?"

The hardest part about this stuff is that you have to stay focused on S8, which is hard when you're hauling around a thousand pounds of anger at his mom. Or have a lot of unresolved pain yourself. I had to learn to ask questions and just stay focused on S13 when he was ready to talk. Hard to do! He started to tell me about the conversations his dad was having about me, which were so painful. I would say, "That must be hard for you when dad says those things. How did it make you feel?" Instead of what I really wanted to say, which was, "That @ssh0l3!" And defend myself, or whatever. Because when our kids talk about the other parent, they're coping with some intense stuff, and they don't want to have to take care of us and our feelings.

Coparenting with a Toxic Ex is a good book, and so is Divorce Poison. Both books have a lot of techniques that are genuinely useful.

[mother in law]

I agree with lived n learned. . My gd does it too.  She has admitted that her BPD mother (ex dil) stands in the background and makes derogatory comments about us when we are talking to gd and/or gets angry when gd gets off the phone and so makes her life a misery.  Gd often says little and is in a hurry to get off the phone. I guess it is a protective mechanism for her.  I agree about acknowledging the difficulties for the child as it is heavy burden for a child to carry and they might think no one understands.  I have tried to work out a system with gd so that she can let the person on the other end of the phone know it is hard to talk.  It can be as simple as saying a password known to both. If it's often very hard for these children for they know the other parent is unreasonable but feel they musty be loyal to them.