It was nice while it lasted...

[sanemom]

DSD17 was with us this past month, and most of the month went very well.  She seemed almost back to how she was years ago, which was a nice change.

That changed the last 48 hours, though.  She is going back to her BPD mom's on Thursday.  I think my DD16 just had it and blew up--she is mad at DSD17 for asking to spend less time with us (and getting her way) bc my DD16 takes it personally.  DSD17 claims that DH makes her uncomfortable (she didn't look uncomfortable at all the last few weeks).  DD16 said that it doesn't matter--DSD17 and her are usually hanging out, not DSD17 and DH--so who cares how DH makes her feel.  Then it came to a head... .DD16 gets mad at DSD17 for believing everything BPD mom says and throws BPD mom under the bus... .not good, not good.

I had my aha moment though.  My DD's dad barely contacts her.  He has his own issues and does not make DD16 a priority.  DD16 has told me many times that she wishes her dad loved her the way DH loves DSD17, and then she tells me she gets mad bc DSD17 trashes her dad's love for her.  So when DD16 hears DSD17 throwing DH under the bus, DD16 is very offended and, unfortunately, reacts by throwing BPD mom under the bus... .then it goes downhill from there.  DD16 was infuriated when she realized that DSD17 has DH listed by his last name only on her phone... .not "dad" or any other term of endearment. 

And now it is obvious that DSD17 is back to her negative self... .it is so hard to watch her sweet spirit disappear right before my eyes.  It really almost feels like something takes over DSD when she does this because her personality seems almost completely altered... .hard to explain.

Does anyone else see such complete changes in personality?  I don't see it with the boys, but it is very obvious when DSD is about to go back to her mom's.

[Matt]

Yes, over the years I've seen that at times from some of my kids (S16, D17, SD25, SS35).  Acting one way most of the time, but a different way just before or after being with their BPD mom.

Your description of it sounds like a mess - my eyes almost glaze over with all the complexity - but I'm sure the reality is even messier than what you posted.  One of the lessons is that being around someone with BPD is confusing;  people with BPD leave chaos in their wake.  We who are impacted tend to turn on each other and blame each other - and sometimes maybe that's fair - but mostly we're all just caught up in the chaos.

Maybe you can find a family counselor who can see you all together - that is, all of you who live together at least part of the time - and talk about this openly with a professional guiding the discussion.  All the issues, like how Dad is listed on Daughter's phone, can be talked about openly, and it might help everybody to think through how they're not really that important, in and of themselves, but they have lots of baggage, and it's the baggage that needs to be sorted out.

Putting Dad as "LAST NAME" on her phone - she might have a reason for doing that, or no reason at all, and either way, it would be good to sort out, but it might be tough to sort it out without a professional to help.

And the changes in behavior can be talked through too.  I've found with a couple of my kids - the other aren't quite to this point yet - that when they are becoming adults, they have held on to some learned behaviors - BPDish behaviors like throwing fits, that they learned from their mom growing up (she throws fits like a six-year-old) - but when I've had a good talk with them - with my oldest when he was in his 20s, and with D17 just last week - "You throw fits sometimes like a child - I've seen your mom do that too so I think you learned that behavior from her but it's not OK at your age, so you need to take control and quit doing that." - in both cases they rose to the challenge and the fits ended.  Same with some other behaviors.

Best not to have that conversation when everybody is worked up.  It needs to be a calm, thoughtful conversation between two more-or-less adults - lots of respect both ways.  From what you've written, it sounds like your kids are able to act right, so if they see what is happening - whatever they are feeling when it's almost time to be with their mom - maybe they can get a grip... .

[ForeverDad]

I get the impression she's transitioning into her other world/persona with her mother.  I used to see that with my son, when I would be driving him to exchanges he would close his eyes and grow silent, he didn't even want me to talk.  I figure he was mentally and emotionally 'transitioning' from life with me to life with her.

Soon she will be an adult, then what will she do?  Will she visit or spend summers again?  Or will her programmed fervor and loyalty to her mother sink her for years to come?

[sanemom]

I get the impression she's transitioning into her other world/persona with her mother.  I used to see that with my son, when I would be driving him to exchanges he would close his eyes and grow silent, he didn't even want me to talk.  I figure he was mentally and emotionally 'transitioning' from life with me to life with her.

Soon she will be an adult, then what will she do?  Will she visit or spend summers again?  Or will her programmed fervor and loyalty to her mother sink her for years to come?

I think her programmed fervor may just sink her for years to come.  We told her the truth about what happened with this case, about a lot of things that have happened, but she basically has told people that she doesn't believe us.  She would rather believe her mom's crazy stories; I had to explain to my DD16 that I don't think DSD17 can handle believing the truth because the truth destroys her desired view of her BPD mom.  My DD16, who is an outsider, thinks it is quite obvious that her BPD mom's stories don't even make sense.

We are just going to have to let her go and hope by the time she is 30, she starts realizing that we were the people her mom has been telling her we are.  I am hoping that her fervent denial of truth is not a sign that she may be becoming BPD... .hoping that it is just a temporary coping mechanism.

[Nope]

At 17 you'd know if she is BPD. If you don't believe me on that just go look at the boards for coping with a son or daughter with BPD. When she'll get things figured out will be interesting to see. It'll all depend on when she decides to have a life of her own that doesn't revolve around her mom.

I just found out last week that SD11 didn't know how to properly answer a phone. As in, she didn't know to say "hello" into the receiver when picking it up. She thought picking it up and listening for the person to start talking on the other end was enough. Their father isn't allowed to call them and she never put two and two together that her dad always answers the phone with a hello during the one day a week they are allowed to call him. They have a house phone at their mom's but they are never allowed to touch it under any circumstances. I have a feeling that some day she's going to look back at the extreme and unhealthy control her mother had over her life and realize how screwed up that kind of behavior is. But when she does it'll have nothing to do with her parent's relationship with each other and everything to do with how she sees herself being treated or imposed upon.

[ForeverDad]

What she lacks is a solid foundation - something she should have developed from early childhood - of (1) knowing that reality and true/false doesn't change depending upon which family you are currently with, (2) making her own independent & objective observations and (3) trusting and sticking with her own independent & objective observations long term.

My ex's sister had a hard time sticking to her own observations, her opinions would change depending on who spoke with her.  Many years ago we would visit and she would tell us how bad we were.  By the end of the day visit she would be agreeing that uBPD mother and abuser uNPD father were problem.  Next visit she'd again be back to saying how bad we were.  For that reason I learn toward your DSD not likely to have BPD.  Granted, she may display some traits, primarily when in her mother's environment, but we all have traits of this, that and whatever since we're not robots off an assembly line.

Your family is an influence on her just as her mother is an influence on her.  She needs to determine for herself what is true and what is not, what is good and what is bad, what is right and what is wrong, what is important and what is not, etc.  She has it with you, not with her mother.  Perspective and objectivity will be an uphill struggle for her, especially if she doesn't learn to set and enforce boundaries with her mother.  It may take some time, probably years to go through that process of recovery and discovery.  Let's hope she can do that over time.

Thus far your family's good influence is not enough to overcome her other parent's overwhelming influence.  Perhaps you can try to make slow progress, two steps forward and only one step back?  If only she would get into long term counseling with an experienced and perceptive professional... .

Side note... .Why did I use the word counseling for DSD?  Over time I found myself generally referring to disordered people as needing therapy and others as needing counseling.  While there is no clear line between them, I've stopped using them interchangeably on an indiscriminate basis.  Here's what I found from one internet search:

Therapy: The treatment of disease or disorders, as by some remedial, rehabilitating, or curative process: speech therapy. (Dictionary.com entry for “Therapy”

Counseling: Professional guidance in resolving personal conflicts and emotional problems. (Dictionary.com entry for “Counseling”

The words become interchangeable because mental health therapists/counselors do both things. We use counseling to join with our clients and build a relationship. We use therapies that we’ve learned to facilitate healthy change. In fact, counseling is our most often-used therapeutic technique, because good counsel is, itself, therapeutic.

[Matt]

I don't think psychologists diagnose children with BPD or other psychological disorders.  The reason is that their personalities are still developing, and they are highly influenced by parents and others.  If a 17-year-old's behaviors were judged by adult standards, all our kids would be diagnosed with all sorts of stuff.

My D17 is doing great, but on a given day she shows behaviors that would be a cause for great concern in an adult.  I don't think she has BPD or anything else;  she's a 17-year-old girl with a mom who has BPD, so she has the behaviors of a high-school girl plus maybe some behaviors she has picked up from her mom - learned behaviors which can be un-learned, not baked-in problems like BPD.

Here's a story I've told before - stop me if you've heard it - about her older brother... .

He was raised by their mom, and treated badly as a child.  Drinking at 12, and other stuff in high school.  Serious problems til he went to rehab in his mid-20s.  Then he came home and lived with me and the younger kids (I had separated from their mom).

Playing a game one evening, his little brother got mad and threw a game piece at him, and big brother - in his mid-20s - threw it back and hurt his little brother.  I told him, "That's the last fit you're going to throw in this house.  Either you control your behavior like an adult or you find somewhere else to live."

It worked - throwing fits like that was a behavior he had learned from their mom, and he un-learned it fast when there were consequences.  (I think he had actually learned self-control in rehab, and he was putting it into practice when I insisted on it.)

It was learned behavior - not BPD or any other psychological disorder - and it could be un-learned.

I suspect the same thing is probably true of your step-daughter Sanemom.  That doesn't make it easier for you - and it doesn't mean that counseling for her would be a bad idea - dealing with someone like her mom is surely very difficult for her and the help of an experienced counselor might make all the difference... .

By the way, like FD, I've found "counseling" to be a more helpful word, for most of us, for all the reasons he says.  "Therapy" sounds like something is "wrong" with the person, and when it's a child with a BPDish parent, there may not be anything really "wrong" with the child that needs "fixed" - just skills that need to be learned and choices that need to be made... .

[livednlearned]

BPD is usually experienced by people who suffer from high sensitivity, extreme reactions, and trouble coming back to baseline. Does that describe your SD17?

My uBPD brother was an intensely controlling and abusive person. To be around him I adopted a specific persona that I needed in order to appease him. Our worst years happened when he wanted to be included in my social life -- his friendships were unstable and he always wanted access to my friends. But it was impossible for me to combine those two selves. They couldn't coexist in the same time and place. I had to figure out ways to keep the two worlds separate, and that's when the abuse escalated and became severe. When you talk about your SD17, I think about how intensely self-preserving she sounds. It took me over 20 years to understand my self-preservation dynamic, and I was long out of it. Your SD17 is still in it. When something threatens your self-preservation dynamic, that threat can become worse than whatever it is you're defending yourself against.

What are your thoughts about Matt's suggestion to get the family into counseling together? You're in the big league with all this complexity and confusion, plus a nasty custody battle that probably feels like a thousand paper cuts. I can't imagine managing this without someone skilled to guide you through it, especially a dispassionate outsider.

[sanemom]

BPD is usually experienced by people who suffer from high sensitivity, extreme reactions, and trouble coming back to baseline. Does that describe your SD17?

Your SD17 is still in it. When something threatens your self-preservation dynamic, that threat can become worse than whatever it is you're defending yourself against.

What are your thoughts about Matt's suggestion to get the family into counseling together? You're in the big league with all this complexity and confusion, plus a nasty custody battle that probably feels like a thousand paper cuts. I can't imagine managing this without someone skilled to guide you through it, especially a dispassionate outsider.

Well, after the court order, we are in counseling with the boys' counselor who understands the dynamics of this high conflict situation and has definitely been a help.  The problem is, we fought and fought, but DSD's counselor (who hates DH for no reason) is continuing to be her counselor, and DH and DSD were ordered to have a reunification therapist.  DSD is only with us two weekends a month anyway... .but the counseling is all in a court order now so we have what we have.

What is hard about knowing if DSD is BPD is that her mom's "extreme reactions" are really quite undercover... .she emails them.  She is not one who acts out too much, but keeps it all inside.  DSD has done some things like that, but we can't tell if that is part of the alienation or if that is really her.  I think for now we are going to just hope for the best.

The self-preservation information makes a lot of sense, livednlearned.  I don't see their mom as being ragefully abusive, but she plays victim like a pro and is your quintessential waif borderline.  I am sure that kind of pressure can be just as strong, however.