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Before you can make things better, you have to stop making them worse... Have you considered that being critical, judgmental, or invalidating toward the other parent, no matter what she or he just did will only make matters worse? Someone has to be do something. This means finding the motivation to stop making things worse, learning how to interrupt your own negative responses, body language, facial expressions, voice tone, and learning how to inhibit your urges to do things that you later realize are contributing to the tensions.
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Author Topic: Vacation nightmare... again  (Read 400 times)
highroadstepmom

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« on: July 31, 2014, 04:10:13 PM »

Hi - I'm the soon to be stepmom of two boys with uBPD bm. My fiancé and his ex co-own a cabin where we vacation (separately!). Some summers the ex goes out during her vacation time with the boys, some summers not. We go every year. And every year there is some drama about the cabin, the dates of vacation, etc - even though it's fairly well spelled out in the custody agreement.

This summer, we seemed to be on a good track - everyone planned to visit the cabin during their custodial vaca time meaning we could exchange the kids near the cabin (it's far from where we all live). Yay - kids get longer at a great place.

My fiancé wrote to confirm that this exchange, far from home was going to happen near the cabin, and the date.

uBPDex wrote back informing him (they never ask do they?) that she would be there early in the morning on a date 2 days earlier than his custodial vaca time ended.

He wrote back and said as much.

She replied that she WOULD be there on that date (2 days earlier than his custodial time ends) WITH a friend and would get the NEIGHBORS to help her if my fiancé refused to hand over the children who, she said, would be happy to see her (implied: run you off your own property). (and, of course the children will be happy to see their mother! duh!)

He wrote back - trying SET and said, since we can't work this out, I'll plan on returning with the children to our hometown and you may pick them up there on the day and time the custody agreement indicates.

She conveniently didn't reply to this message for about two weeks, while we were on vacation, until he was ready to begin the days-long drive back home when she flipped. Verbally berated him with foul language on the phone (cursing, name calling, etc), told the boys (during her scheduled calls with them) that she was on her way to pick them up at the cabin, asked them (the children) why wouldn't daddy let her pick up the boys near the cabin? She wrote her lawyer that he's just trying to hurt her. We made our vacation plans - including stopping on the trip back to visit my fiancé's family - based on the fact that she hadn't replied to his SET communication about a return with the children to our home town.

When she flipped - we took a collective deep breath and looked at what was best for the children:

a) an emotionally out of control mom at exchange anywhere, not good

b) a confrontation at the cabin vacation location in front of the children, not good

c) driving the kids a few days home and then her putting them in her car and driving them back, not good.

So, we looked to compromise. He agreed with her to meet her at a point not quite halfway between the cabin and the home town, a day earlier than his custodial time is up and a day later than she had demanded. Oh, and she admitted she got the date wrong during this compromise phone call. Phew. disaster averted (insert knowing, sad, laugh here... .)

In my limited experience, if given an inch, BPDs will take a mile. So, my fiancé has learned to not budge on anything related to the details of the custody agreement, but this just seems to amplify the incendiary situations.

(Side note: I had to come home ahead of them for work so I haven't been physically there in a week.)

Today, the day he was to leave the cabin to meet uBPDx bio mom between the cabin and our hometown, bio mom's parents show up at the cabin to confront my fiancé - all in front of the children - saying that it was best if they took the children from there directly to their mother, waiting at a location about an hour away... .(the maternal grandparents live just an hour away from this cabin) saying how disappointed they were in him -Remember - it's still two full days before his custodial time is over... .my fiancé asked them to control the confrontation in front of the children - nope. (may I add that during our vacation time, we make sure these boys get to visit their maternal grandparents? because biomom doesn't regularly visit her own parents?)

I don't know how but my fiancé managed to get his children in the car and get underway to the agreed upon meeting place, between cabin and home town) 9 hours away. He is very disheartened.  I feel like something like this happens every year.

I am asking this group for some feedback on moving forward - uBPDex did not break the custody agreement - she sent her parents, smart. and, honestly, it's not good for the kids to be driven back and forth such long distances because the parents can't agree. But I support my fiancé in following the letter of the custody agreement when uBPDex pushes boundaries. She took weeks to reply, she's verbally abusive, she does not filter in front of their children.  I feel for these kids and want to be fair to both bio parents and support these kids who are in the middle.

1) I suggested to my ex that not only do the deadlines for informing the other parent of vacation dates need to be in the custody agreement, but there also needs to added to the agreement a deadline for agreeing to the pickup date, time and location in the custody agreement. Has anyone done this before?

2) We tend not to openly share our plans with her (other than saying 'we are on the road, we have crossed into Indiana, etc' but has anyone tried all open information to the BPD- sharing openly? modeling good communication to the BPD? Can a BPD ever understand that our life's work is not some grand plan designed to hurt her (in her dissociative mind) and to have a little trust that my fiancé wants only what is fair and what is accorded him in the 50/50 custody - no more?

3) She had to go on a work trip about a week before our vacation dates. She never shared her travel dates when she had to be away - and never asked my fiancé to care for the children during her custodial time (while she was away)... .Knowing she had a trip coming up, he finally asked her about her travel dates and child care and she replied "i'm leaving today, you need to pick the kids up from day camp today"It seems really troubling to me that a parent would make plans to head out of town and not ask or tell the other parent that or when childcare was needed. My fiancé has tracked back through every text and email and can't find anything where she asked or informed about caring for the children during her trip- this seems like unfit parenting - it's lucky he and I weren't away! This seems to speak to some instability on her part. What can we do? Does he share this with his attorney?

4) perhaps this should have been first - I know we can't control what she says or does but jeez she can't keep her mouth shut to the children - how do we support the children and help them not to be worried 'when mommy and daddy disagree' or that mommy totally badmouths daddy to them.  I know we can't change her or her behavior but how can we support the children and ease their stress? What are some things we can say to the children to a) affirm that a big conflict just went down in front of them, b) that mommy and daddy love them and they don't need to worry about it? We never talk about her in any negative ways in front of those boys. We are positive and encouraging and inclusive when their mother comes up or even when we bring her up.

Is there anything legally actionable here? 

sorry this is so long - I think this group understands the crazy minutiae that can set a BPD off.  I know judges and lawyers don't care that she screams at him in front of teachers at school, or in front of the co-parenting counselor. They care about whether the custody agreement is being adhered to. I am not fearful but I feel that he must move to parallel parenting so that they need never interact face to face. I'm trying to be supportive and even realistic about my fiancé's actions and how he can have his legal rights to his children while still proceeding in ways that don't exacerbate a crazy situation (I've suggested to him to communicate to her only in writing as though he is writing to the Queen of England, respond to facts not to emotion, etc. etc. I found SET and BIFF and we practice it).

Any advice or info on how folks deal with vacations would be helpful and thanks, I just needed to get it out. I am feeling for those two little boys who had to witness their beloved maternal grandparents berate their beloved father this morning.

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Matt
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« Reply #1 on: July 31, 2014, 05:47:47 PM »

How old are the kids?  And how are they doing?

Here's my quick reaction... .

First, I think it's great that you and your fiancee are working together and supporting each other on this.  Problems like this - where no matter what you do it probably won't work perfectly - can really drive people apart - "If only you had done it my way everything would have worked out fine!" - uh, no it wouldn't.  It's probably more important that the two of you make these decisions together, and continue to support each other, than what decisions you make, because no matter what you decide there's a good chance his ex will still act out.

Second, I think what you are learning is that the more you try to bend over backward to be reasonable, the worse things work.  You have tried to be "flexible";  now it may be time to double-check exactly what the court order says and go by that.

Third, a communication method I find works pretty well in dealing with my BPD ex - everybody is different so I don't know if it will work for you but it's worth a try... .

What I do is, I use e-mail only (except for emergencies) because it leaves a record and because it's very deliberate - you can think before you hit "send".  I think about what will work well for everybody - the kids, me and their mom - and work out a plan I think is good, and I communicate it by telling her what I will do - not a question like "Will it work for you if we... .", or a "proposal" like "I would suggest we do such-and-such... .", but a statement of what I will do:  "I will pick up the kids at noon Saturday and drop them off at noon Sunday."

This still gives her the opportunity to object, or propose a different plan, but usually she says "OK" or doesn't respond at all.  I've done her the courtesy of giving her notice.

Not sure exactly why this works - if she wants to be difficult she still can be - but she seems to react well when she can be passive - she doesn't have to do anything, even reply.

Your questions:

1) Yes, making the court order more specific is probably a good idea, if you don't mind the cost and hassle of going back to court.  Another way to do this might be to send her an e-mail stating, "In the future I will pick up the kids at noon on the appropriate day and return them at noon on the appropriate day.  For the next two weeks this means I will pick them up at noon Saturday 8/2 and return them at noon Sunday 8/3;  pick them up noon Thursday 8/7 and return them noon Monday 8/11... .".

For a while, when my kids were smaller, I sent my ex an e-mail like this every weekend, stating the times for pickup and drop-off for the next two weeks.

By the way, when we settled our divorce, one of my proposals was that I would do all the driving, so all pickups and drop-offs were at my ex's place.  My lawyer presented this as a favor I would be doing my ex, but of course my real reason was so she couldn't passive-aggressively keep me waiting, and she would have no reason to be in my neighborhood where she might cause trouble.  Best move I ever made.

2) Less is more:  talk only about practical matters that impact the kids.

Sometimes I need to travel on business and that affects the schedule.  I send an e-mail saying "I need to travel this Thursday and Friday, back late Friday evening.  I will drop off the kids Wednesday at 6:00 p.m. and pick them up Saturday morning at 9:00."  Where I'm going, and why, is none of her business, and irrelevant;  the only thing relevant is the schedule for the kids.  (And of course when she wants to travel, or doesn't want the kids, for whatever reason - and it happens a lot - I cheerfully take them and don't make it complicated.)

3) If you go back to court at some point, this might be relevant;  you can say "Ms. Ex has not been cooperative - she has not kept Mr. Fiancee informed about her travel plans."  I wouldn't communicate it to your attorney unless you plan to go to court, because he might bill you for the time it takes him to read it.

Your fiancee could always write her, "I can pick up the kids today at 5:00, but in the future please give me as much notice as possible when you plan to travel."  But she may do it again and there's not much you can do about it;  best to just be glad you get the kids more.

4) This could be the topic of a whole thread - a very common problem most of us have and very worth talking about.

There are a few things you can do... .

Read ":)ivorce Poison" by Richard Warshak, which deals with this issue very well.

Consider counseling for the kids, not to fix something that's wrong with them, but to help them gain skills for dealing with their mom's behavior.

Learn to listen to the kids - including their non-verbal communication - and validate their perceptions and feelings.  Don't defend their mom or tell them they are wrong when they say what she did and how they felt about it - and you don't need to tell them they're right either - just make sure they know you hear them, and help them learn to talk about their feelings, by putting them into words yourself - "It sounds like you're sad your mom didn't take you to the park like she said she would." or "You sound kind of angry."

One of the big things adults who were raised by someone with BPD say is that they wish the other parent had listened to them and believed them, and hadn't told them "You shouldn't say things like that about your mother" or "You know your mother loves you don't you?".

Another good book - but kind of expensive and depressing! - is "Understanding The Borderline Mother" by Christine Lawson - lots of good insight into these issues... .
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highroadstepmom

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« Reply #2 on: July 31, 2014, 08:54:13 PM »

Thank you Matt. I think one of the challenges is that my partner is not naturally a person who communicates with clarity.  It's hard to have that verbal abuse lobbed at you all the time, to have the kids show up and say 'mommy says you have to... .' The firm 'just the facts jack' seems to be a good approach. These episodes are exhausting for everyone and certainly put a taint on times like holidays and vacations that are supposed to be about leisure. Appreciate your insight and learning of your experiences.
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« Reply #3 on: July 31, 2014, 09:23:19 PM »

It's hard to have that verbal abuse lobbed at you all the time, to have the kids show up and say 'mommy says you have to... .'

Yeah, using the kids to carry messages, and giving your ex orders, aren't helpful.

It helps if you can laugh stuff like this off and not let them get under your skin, but it can be hard sometimes... .
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« Reply #4 on: August 01, 2014, 09:36:22 AM »

I agree with Matt that it's great you two are working together, and that you care so much about getting things to work out best for the kids. It sounds like you also have a very determined BPD biomom who gets triggered when you're all enjoying yourself at the cabin.

Excerpt
1) I suggested to my ex that not only do the deadlines for informing the other parent of vacation dates need to be in the custody agreement, but there also needs to added to the agreement a deadline for agreeing to the pickup date, time and location in the custody agreement. Has anyone done this before?

You can create very detailed parenting plans. The challenge is getting the other party to comply, whether it's detailed or not. We kinda end up being the enforcers of the orders, so some of this is a judgement call. If bio mom seems to more or less acknowledge the order and is mostly exploiting the gray areas, then it might be worth dealing with lawyers to get something more detailed put in place. The problem is getting her to agree to the changes.    Another option, if your state is one of the ones that uses them, is to get a parenting coordinator involved.

Excerpt
2) We tend not to openly share our plans with her (other than saying 'we are on the road, we have crossed into Indiana, etc' but has anyone tried all open information to the BPD- sharing openly? modeling good communication to the BPD? Can a BPD ever understand that our life's work is not some grand plan designed to hurt her (in her dissociative mind) and to have a little trust that my fiancé wants only what is fair and what is accorded him in the 50/50 custody - no more?

Have you experimented with this? Every BPD sufferer is different, so it might take some fine-tuning to figure out the best way to pull this off, and if it just creates more headaches. For example, my ex threatened to have law enforcement meet me at the airport when I told him I was traveling out of state with S13. That made me reset my boundaries. But some BPD sufferers might have a different response, like maybe blowing up your inbox or trying to monopolize the kids by text message that week. Or, you might hear nothing. I wonder sometimes if the level of narcissism is a big factor here.

Excerpt
3) She had to go on a work trip about a week before our vacation dates. She never shared her travel dates when she had to be away - and never asked my fiancé to care for the children during her custodial time (while she was away)... .Knowing she had a trip coming up, he finally asked her about her travel dates and child care and she replied "i'm leaving today, you need to pick the kids up from day camp today"It seems really troubling to me that a parent would make plans to head out of town and not ask or tell the other parent that or when childcare was needed. My fiancé has tracked back through every text and email and can't find anything where she asked or informed about caring for the children during her trip- this seems like unfit parenting - it's lucky he and I weren't away! This seems to speak to some instability on her part. What can we do? Does he share this with his attorney?

If this is a pattern, and you want to draft a more detailed parenting plan, then this is the kind of stuff an attorney will want to know about. But changing the terms of the parenting plan probably doesn't require as much evidence as, say, changing custody from joint to primary. In general, if you make reasonable adjustments, biomom will have a hard time explaining why she doesn't want things to be reasonable.

Excerpt
4) perhaps this should have been first - I know we can't control what she says or does but jeez she can't keep her mouth shut to the children - how do we support the children and help them not to be worried 'when mommy and daddy disagree' or that mommy totally badmouths daddy to them.  I know we can't change her or her behavior but how can we support the children and ease their stress? What are some things we can say to the children to a) affirm that a big conflict just went down in front of them, b) that mommy and daddy love them and they don't need to worry about it? We never talk about her in any negative ways in front of those boys. We are positive and encouraging and inclusive when their mother comes up or even when we bring her up.

A lot of us want to take the high road and not say anything negative, but there are ways to be very factual about bad behavior that probably helps our kids. For example, if you are going to set a strong boundary, and you anticipate drama, I don't think it's wrong to say to the kids, "Your mom wants to pick you up two days before it is her turn to be with you. I have said no, because that's my time with you and that's the agreement we made. She has a hard time with no. She might come here and get angry. If that happens, I want you to feel free to go into your rooms or leave with highroadstepmom until your mom can cool her jets. It's not ok for people to behave like that. I can't stop how she behaves, but I can make sure we all have a good plan for when and if it happens."

The kids know that her behavior is off the hook. When no one addresses it, they think it's ok. Or, worse, they think no one is protecting them. If you tell them that she might show up and get angry, that isn't going to be anything they don't already know. Negative talk would be, "Your mom is such a jerk! She's mad because I won't let her come here and just walk in and tell me what to do. I don't know why I ever married her." Reasonable talk is letting them know that something might happen, and this is how you, as a family, are going to deal with it.

Also, after a blow up like that happens, whether it's the BPD parent or the grandparents, it's ok to say to the kids, "Are you guys ok? That was pretty rough. I didn't like how they talked to us. Do you think it's ok for people to behave like that?" When someone rages at you, it's pretty jarring, no matter who you are. If no one checks in with the kids, then they don't have anyone helping them process it. They need some help with this stuff -- it's tough for us, it's even more so for them.

I just learned all this the hard way   and had to pay a lot of money in therapist bills trying to figure out what was going on with my son. It turns out he had a lot of stuff he was bottling up about his dad because that's what he thought we were doing. Not talking about anything.  :'(

Is there anything legally actionable here?  

If you think your fiance can enforce boundaries consistently, then it might be worth tightening up the parenting plan. But if he won't, then it's a lot of money for a piece of paper. pwBPD will test and test and test the boundaries, no matter how well written they are.


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mywifecrazy
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« Reply #5 on: August 01, 2014, 02:05:05 PM »

Quote from Matt:

One of the big things adults who were raised by someone with BPD say is that they wish the other parent had listened to them and believed them, and hadn't told them "You shouldn't say things like that about your mother" or "You know your mother loves you don't you?"

Matt, can you shed a little light on the second quote that's in boldface as being a negative. I say that to my kids at times because I don't want them to hate her even when she's not being such a good Mother.


MWC... .Being cool (click to insert in post)

PS. I find you posts very helpful dealing with my uBPDxw. I think it was you that educated me on parallel parenting instead of co-parenting and this has helped me TREMENDOUSLY.
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« Reply #6 on: August 01, 2014, 02:44:05 PM »

Quote from Matt:

One of the big things adults who were raised by someone with BPD say is that they wish the other parent had listened to them and believed them, and hadn't told them "You shouldn't say things like that about your mother" or "You know your mother loves you don't you?"

Matt, can you shed a little light on the second quote that's in boldface as being a negative. I say that to my kids at times because I don't want them to hate her even when she's not being such a good Mother.


MWC... .Being cool (click to insert in post)

PS. I find you posts very helpful dealing with my uBPDxw. I think it was you that educated me on parallel parenting instead of co-parenting and this has helped me TREMENDOUSLY.

Well the "co-parenting" thing is kind of a hot button for me.  I know it's probably the best model for most divorced parents, but when one party has BPD or some other psych disorder, and isn't getting the treatment they need, I haven't found the "co-parenting" model to be practical.  I want less involvement with my ex, not more, and "parallel parenting" lets me establish one functional, peaceful, not-too-crazy home for the kids.  (End of rant.)

"You know your mother loves you don't you?"  What helps me is to think of "love" as an active verb - something you do.  So when I'm putting aside what I'm doing so I can listen well to one of my kids, or when I'm shopping at lunch so I can come straight home after work to be with them, I am "loving" my kids - thinking about what's best for them and doing my best to meet those needs.

It's just as valid to think of "love" as a feeling, but we can't know what someone else is feeling.  If their BPD mom says something mean to them, and they tell me, and my response is "You know she loves you don't you?", I'm kind of invalidating the child;  right when they are feeling not loved, because they have been treated in a not-loving way, here I am telling them she loves them.

Better to validate the child's perceptions and feelings, by listening to what they say, and supporting it - "Sounds like your mom wasn't fair to you." or "You sound really upset with her." - not projecting my own feelings and beliefs, but reflecting back what they told me (verbally or non-verbally) in an accepting way.  The message is, "I heard you and I think your feelings about this are OK - it's OK to feel the way you do and it's OK to see things the way you see them."

Too often, kids in these situations are told, "What you think you see isn't real.  What's real is what everybody else tells you."  If mom seems to be depressed a lot, but nobody else says that - they say "Your mom must have a little flu or something." or whatever - the child begins to think "I must be the crazy one!".

Think of the child of an alcoholic, if the other parent is in denial and never mentions Dad's drinking.  The child sees Dad drinking, and drunk, and sleeping it off, but Mom acts like it isn't happening, and the child isn't old enough to trust her own judgment, so she's very confused, and at a young age that can be traumatic.

Better for Mom to say, "Yeah, you're right, Dad got drunk last night and now he's sleeping it off, and I can understand that you're sad and scared about that."  Validate her perceptions and feelings and she will learn to trust them.

And of course if "your mother loves you" then it's up to Mom to show that.  It's not your job to wallpaper over the problems created by Mom's behavior.
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mywifecrazy
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« Reply #7 on: August 01, 2014, 03:08:06 PM »

Thanks Matt.

You're absolutely right, love is an action. Not a feeling. Since you put it on those terms I better understand it.

MWC... .Being cool (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #8 on: August 01, 2014, 05:30:20 PM »

I think it's really confusing to be told that someone who abuses you, or neglects you, or rages at you loves you. It sure confused me as a kid. Then I grew up and married someone who "loved" me the same way.   

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« Reply #9 on: August 01, 2014, 05:33:40 PM »

I think it's really confusing to be told that someone who abuses you, or neglects you, or rages at you loves you. It sure confused me as a kid. Then I grew up and married someone who "loved" me the same way.   

This is exactly what I was trying to say - just couldn't find the right words.

I haven't experienced it but I've seen the results - my adult stepson experienced it and was really hurt by it.  So easy for us to misunderstand what a young person needs... .
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« Reply #10 on: August 01, 2014, 06:15:32 PM »

A lot of us want to take the high road and not say anything negative, but there are ways to be very factual about bad behavior that probably helps our kids. For example, if you are going to set a strong boundary, and you anticipate drama, I don't think it's wrong to say to the kids, "Your mom wants to pick you up two days before it is her turn to be with you. I have said no, because that's my time with you and that's the agreement we made. She has a hard time with no. She might come here and get angry. If that happens, I want you to feel free to go into your rooms or leave with highroadstepmom until your mom can cool her jets. It's not ok for people to behave like that. I can't stop how she behaves, but I can make sure we all have a good plan for when and if it happens."

The kids know that her behavior is off the hook. When no one addresses it, they think it's ok. Or, worse, they think no one is protecting them. If you tell them that she might show up and get angry, that isn't going to be anything they don't already know. Negative talk would be, "Your mom is such a jerk! She's mad because I won't let her come here and just walk in and tell me what to do. I don't know why I ever married her." Reasonable talk is letting them know that something might happen, and this is how you, as a family, are going to deal with it.

Also, after a blow up like that happens, whether it's the BPD parent or the grandparents, it's ok to say to the kids, "Are you guys ok? That was pretty rough. I didn't like how they talked to us. Do you think it's ok for people to behave like that?" When someone rages at you, it's pretty jarring, no matter who you are. If no one checks in with the kids, then they don't have anyone helping them process it. They need some help with this stuff -- it's tough for us, it's even more so for them.

Thanks for this - it's a really good way to address the situation, acknowledge there's a problem, but not throw the BPD under the bus.  We're working on dealing with my DH's uBPDew and what she says to SS14 and this is really helpful.
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« Reply #11 on: August 01, 2014, 06:16:44 PM »

":)ivorce Poison" by Richard Warshak is very good on this subject - how to talk to kids about their other parent who has a psychological disorder.
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Panda39
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Gender: Female
What is your sexual orientation: Straight
Who in your life has "personality" issues: Romantic partner’s ex
Relationship status: SO and I have been together 9 years and have just moved in together this summer.
Posts: 3462



« Reply #12 on: August 01, 2014, 08:37:51 PM »

My SO has found Parallel Parenting lowers the interaction he has with his uBPDew, which in turn lowers the conflict he has with his ex.  This kind of parenting doesn't work in every situation but has made a big improvement in the level of chaos the ex can stir up. 

Communicating via email has also been very helpful.  You can slow down your response so you can think about what you say, how you say it (keep the drama out), and it is documentation of what they have said.  My SO returned is ex's own emails back to her reminding her of what she said it's pretty hard to deny your own words in black and white.

My SO and I have experienced many of the types things mentioned in the original post.  My SO will often times just quote the court order and tell her if she wants to change it to take him to court (a place she does not want to go).  If you have an ex that likes going to court this one might not work for you 

It's nice to know you all are out there and my honey and I are not alone trying to parent with a pwBPD just waiting to stir things up.
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