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VIDEO: "What is parental alienation?" Parental alienation is when a parent allows a child to participate or hear them degrade the other parent. This is not uncommon in divorces and the children often adjust. In severe cases, however, it can be devastating to the child. This video provides a helpful overview.
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Author Topic: ex wife the perpetual, self-righteous victim  (Read 737 times)
OutOfEgypt
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« on: August 02, 2014, 11:53:12 AM »

So, I'm across the country visiting family with my kids.  My sister had the idea of taking my girls out with her girls and girl cousins out to get their nails done.  I went with them.  It was great.  My daughter really enjoyed it.  So, my uBPDex wife messaged me at some point early this morning basically telling me how brokenhearted and hurt she was that I allowed that to happen.  I've taken away something from her, since my daughter's first trip to a nail salon should be her right as her mother.  She went from being angry, to being okay with it but sad, to then lecturing me about how I'm basically thoughtless and dumb and need help thinking of things like this and how it would impact her.

I responded with empathy at first, and truth (when she was angry and hurt).  I told her I'm sorry she's hurt and that I certainly meant nothing by it.  We're on vacation and having a good time.  She compared it to how her sister had "taken away" so many "firsts" with her son, years ago -first haircut, first movie in a movie theater, etc.  I reminded her that I'm not her sister.  I'm the father of these children.  I made a general statement about how co-parenting is just difficult for reasons like this.  We miss out on "firsts" with our kids.

When she started to really lay into me with the FOG stuff, with her lecture about how I'm basically dumb and don't think of things like this, I didn't even reply.  I wanted to tell her, "piss off," but I chose to do my best to enjoy my day and not follow after her on the path of childish drama. I am, however, livid.  I can't stand this selfish woman.  I believe I handled it well, but it still brews under the surface.  If I'm not constantly thinking about her and how things will effect her, I'm thoughtless.  As if she thinks about me one bit?  Nope.  Sometimes I hate this person when I think about how she sucks the life out of this already-broken family.  Nothing will ever be enough.  She'll always couch it as though she's some victim and she's more thoughtful and kind.  It's such a crock of Bullet: comment directed to __ (click to insert in post)#$.  Doing my best to let it go.

Meanwhile, she's coming home early from her trip and plans to visit my house-sitters (she knows I don't want her in my house when I'm not there).  Just a little something to say, "I'm not going to follow your rules.  I'm going to dance on the line and show you that I can."

I leave this in God's hands -there will be a day when she faces justice for all the crap she puts me/us all through.  I knew that she would do her best to insert herself into things while we are away.  This would be the first time that I have ever taken the kids here without having to deal with some kind of drama with her (affairs, divorce, etc.). 

Just venting.  I covet your prayers and support.  Any suggestions on what I could have done better?
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livednlearned
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« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2014, 12:27:31 PM »

How great that you hung out with the girls while they got their nails done  Smiling (click to insert in post)

You know you're not thoughtless, right? Just want to make sure... .

BPD sufferers are in a perpetual Karpmann drama triangle. So your ex feels like the victim, and when you don't respond appropriately, she becomes the persecutor. And people like us who tend to be rescuers know that we are damned if we do, and damned if we don't. And that feels bad!

I found with my ex, that when I realized he wanted me to engage in the Karpmann dynamic, it was easier to step outside it. For a while, I just studied him and became kinda fascinated with how predictable it started to seem. Here comes the victim stuff. Now the persecution. Oh, and back to victim.  

There's an alternate dynamic to the Karpmann triangle called The Empowerment Dynamic (TED). Where instead of victim, persecutor, and rescuer, the roles are creator, challenger, and coach.

I didn't want to be in the drama triangle anymore, and certainly didn't want to be cast in the rescuer role anymore, but didn't know what the options were. That made me feel a bit stuck in all my interactions with N/BPDx, even after we divorced. The alternative role for rescuer is coach. If I think about myself as a coach, and try to practice interacting with others that way, it helps me stay clean and free of the Karpmann drama, even when someone else is trying to suck me in.

For example, the best you can do is to coach your ex. "Since this upsetting thing is already done, what can you do with them with they're home that will feel special to all of you?" She probably won't have a solution because:BPD. But it almost doesn't matter. You put the responsibility for solving her problem back on her where it belongs. And that frees you from being tangled up in that rescuer or victim stuff.






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« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2014, 01:39:02 PM »

livednlearned, thanks for that.  That's pretty awesome.  I see what you are saying.

Should I address her ridiculous accusations?  Yes, I know I'm not thoughtless.  In fact, if there's anything I know it is that for almost 15 years I was her rescuer.  If there was anyone who constantly thought of her and her feelings, to the point of nausea, it was me.  And now I'm done with that.  It's more the annoying/angering problem of having to hear it every time something happens that she doesn't like (which is often, if I actually live my life).  I mean of course she's going to act out... .we're all hanging out without her and having a good time with my family, whom she hates with passion for "never really loving her" from the perspective of her victimized little mind.  How do I *not* get pissed off about that?  

And if she ever pushes the discussion to the point where she's demanding I validate her "victim" point of view, do I just tell her that I flat out don't listen to her anymore because she always sees herself as a victim?
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« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2014, 04:29:24 PM »

Should I address her ridiculous accusations?

Well, maybe it's different for you, but I never found anything I said or did made a difference. Not "I love you" or "I'm sorry" or "you're right" or any of the many reasonable things that people say when they are being accountable. So anything less than that never worked. "You are being ridiculous" would be so fun to say to my ex, and I admit I fantasize about ripping him a new one every now and then. Some days I'm driving in my car and next thing I know, I'm back in our kitchen yelling at him like a champ, saying the things I always wanted to say. And then walking out, of course.  Smiling (click to insert in post) I'm sure it's an interesting site for anyone watching a middle-aged woman shouting at herself inside the car.

But back to you! I think it helps to figure out if she's renting space in your head. If she is, and your goal is to stop her from doing that, then maybe ask if defending yourself makes it easier to evict her from your head. My guess is that it won't, because defending ourselves takes a lot of energy. It means we're engaged.

Excerpt
I mean of course she's going to act out... .we're all hanging out without her and having a good time with my family, whom she hates with passion for "never really loving her" from the perspective of her victimized little mind.  How do I *not* get pissed off about that?

 

Well getting pissed off about it is totally normal. These are not easy-going people   So the question is: Do you want to stay engaged? If she walked into a puddle of water an inch deep and screamed at you for not noticing that she's drowning, how would you react? Most likely you would ask why she doesn't just step out of the puddle.  Smiling (click to insert in post)  And also, you're divorced. This puddle business is really not your problem.

Getting to the point where you see all of her antics that way is hugely freeing. It doesn't mean you don't get pissed at her (who wants to be yelled at?) it just means you see her as someone who can solve her own problems. 

Excerpt
And if she ever pushes the discussion to the point where she's demanding I validate her "victim" point of view, do I just tell her that I flat out don't listen to her anymore because she always sees herself as a victim?

It sounds like you two talk on the phone? That might be making it worse for you. Because from my perspective out here on the internet, it sounds like you do listen to her. 

You can't win in this drama triangle. You just can't. It's set up so everyone loses.
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« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2014, 04:46:18 PM »

Thanks for this.  I'm going to read it again later, but it's good.  We mostly text.  And when I see that I have unread texts from her, it haunts me.  It's like I sometimes just shut my phone off, but it haunts me that I'll read it later and be upset, so I usually just read it then so that I can get "being up" out of the way.

But you are right, it is a matter of engagement.  And you are right, telling her the truth about what a drama-queen she is will never be heard.  In fact, since she's a person who loves a fight, she would probably love it in some sick way.

My daughter just told me her mother is annoying her because she's bemoaning how "heartbroken" she is on Facebook -won't say why, just that she's heartbroken.  That was wonderful for a good eye roll.  It's like 10 hours later.  At least my daughter sees that her mother is acting like some of her junior high-school friends.    Not always easy to shake off, but I agree that is the goal.  And yes, nobody likes getting yelled at.  It's a matter of living my life and detaching from a lost cause.  It reminds me of in the Gospels where Jesus told his disciples to "shake the dust off their feet" when a town did not receive their words and to "not case your pearls before swine."
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« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2014, 04:52:07 PM »

The TED concept is interesting. I feel on the edge of being a persecutor, but I bite my tongue a lot. I certainly don't want to be a rescuer, but I am a coach when needed. Despite how she portrays her self publicly, I have had to coach her on a few things. I feel at the edge of resentment sometimes,.but I remember it's about the kids.
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« Reply #6 on: August 02, 2014, 05:27:05 PM »

The TED concept is interesting. I feel on the edge of being a persecutor, but I bite my tongue a lot. I certainly don't want to be a rescuer, but I am a coach when needed. Despite how she portrays her self publicly, I have had to coach her on a few things. I feel at the edge of resentment sometimes,.but I remember it's about the kids.

Yeah, focusing on the kids is always good. A natural tactic for detaching.

Although, I have to say, I found detachment to be overly vague at first. Detached feelings? Detached behavior? I think we kid ourselves that someone's troubling or troubled behavior doesn't have an impact on us. Plus, it makes us feel like our feelings are wrong, and that's not very validating.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

But it's ok to recognize that someone's behavior is making you nuts, and feeling those feelings, and then having a plan or a tactic for how to disengage. In fact, it's probably doubly important to pay attention to how you feel, so you can decide if that's how you want to continue to feel. That's part of what it means to take care of yourself. "This is not working for me. I need to change up... ."

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« Reply #7 on: August 02, 2014, 05:34:20 PM »

The TED concept is interesting. I feel on the edge of being a persecutor, but I bite my tongue a lot. I certainly don't want to be a rescuer, but I am a coach when needed. Despite how she portrays her self publicly, I have had to coach her on a few things. I feel at the edge of resentment sometimes,.but I remember it's about the kids.

Yeah, focusing on the kids is always good. A natural tactic for detaching.

Although, I have to say, I found detachment to be overly vague at first. Detached feelings? Detached behavior? I think we kid ourselves that someone's troubling or troubled behavior doesn't have an impact on us. Plus, it makes us feel like our feelings are wrong, and that's not very validating.  Smiling (click to insert in post)

But it's ok to recognize that someone's behavior is making you nuts, and feeling those feelings, and then having a plan or a tactic for how to disengage. In fact, it's probably doubly important to pay attention to how you feel, so you can decide if that's how you want to continue to feel. That's part of what it means to take care of yourself. "This is not working for me. I need to change up... ."

My Ex is getting back into the state after a week gone with the kids. Instead of bringing the kids to church, she asked me to pick them up, "so you can see them." This is true, but it is her weekend by the stipulation, vacation aside. I know she's doing it so she can see her young lover without the kids. Two love addicts being apart for a week I'm sure was hard for both of them. So I am enabling on the one hand (I could say, "I'll be out of town" or "I've got something else going on", but I do want to see the kids. So I'm focusing on that.
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« Reply #8 on: August 02, 2014, 08:45:18 PM »

Should I address her ridiculous accusations?

Well, maybe it's different for you, but I never found anything I said or did made a difference. Not "I love you" or "I'm sorry" or "you're right" or any of the many reasonable things that people say when they are being accountable. So anything less than that never worked.

This! A million times over!  SO has found with uBPDex that it doesn't matter how he responds, because she isn't really listening to him anyway.  She gets off on feeling victimized, and it isn't really about him.

Amazing how similar these stories are.  Recently, UBPDex asked for a schedule change that SO could not accommodate, which he let her know in a polite fashion with suggestions for other options.   This lead to a huge multi-text tirade where she accused of ruining her life, slammed his character, claiming all her family and friends hate him etc.  It went on for ages.  Normally he just ignores these rages, but this time he sent her a one line text with a negative comment about her parenting.  This provoked more tirade from her, but he just ignored it.  Several weeks later, out of the blue, she sent him a text telling him that he was so horrible and cruel for saying what he did, and that it was the WORST thing anyone had ever done to her.  <<insert eyeroll>>.  Apparently the multi-text hideous rant she unleashed upon him first has just erased itself from her mind.  Victim, indeed.
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« Reply #9 on: August 02, 2014, 08:58:04 PM »

I guess my point there is that she is ridiculous when he has said or done nothing, ridiculous when he is polite, and ridiculous when he fights back.  There is no winning!
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« Reply #10 on: August 02, 2014, 08:59:54 PM »

Yes, I agree.  It does seem pointless.  My question really has to do with what my responsibility is.  Do I have a responsibility to speak truth to her, regardless of the consequences?
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« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2014, 10:00:07 PM »

There's an alternate dynamic to the Karpmann triangle called The Empowerment Dynamic (TED). Where instead of victim, persecutor, and rescuer, the roles are creator, challenger, and coach.

I didn't want to be in the drama triangle anymore, and certainly didn't want to be cast in the rescuer role anymore, but didn't know what the options were. That made me feel a bit stuck in all my interactions with N/BPDx, even after we divorced. The alternative role for rescuer is coach. If I think about myself as a coach, and try to practice interacting with others that way, it helps me stay clean and free of the Karpmann drama, even when someone else is trying to suck me in.

For example, the best you can do is to coach your ex. "Since this upsetting thing is already done, what can you do with them with they're home that will feel special to all of you?" She probably won't have a solution because:BPD. But it almost doesn't matter. You put the responsibility for solving her problem back on her where it belongs. And that frees you from being tangled up in that rescuer or victim stuff.

I really like this  Doing the right thing (click to insert in post) I'm putting this in the memory bank!  Thank you.
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« Reply #12 on: August 02, 2014, 10:08:11 PM »

Yes, I agree.  It does seem pointless.  My question really has to do with what my responsibility is.  Do I have a responsibility to speak truth to her, regardless of the consequences?

In my cost-benefit analysis, I would say no.  I guess whatever response or lack of would be most satisfying to *you* in and of itself- do that- as any back and forth with her about it will likely be circular and an exercise in frustration.
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« Reply #13 on: August 02, 2014, 10:10:34 PM »

Yes, I agree.  It does seem pointless.  My question really has to do with what my responsibility is.  Do I have a responsibility to speak truth to her, regardless of the consequences?

I don't know that you need to talk to her any further about this.  You apologized to her (which is enough)... .for what? Facilitating a wonderful fun day for your daughter with her relatives?  :)on't pursue a conversation about this, don't feed the drama.  When you feed the drama the pwBPD will always come running for more.
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« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2014, 07:23:40 AM »

Well that's what I'm getting at.  Is there a responsibility beyond mere cost-benefit analysis and pragmatism?  Probably not at some point, like when you realize that they have absolutely no desire to hear or see reality for what it is... .like years ago Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2014, 09:42:19 AM »

Is there a responsibility beyond mere cost-benefit analysis and pragmatism? 

I think that's a really good question. Do you mean are you being judged for not doing the responsible thing? And if so, who would be doing the judging? This might be a deep FOO FOG thing to work through. Who is speaking in your head to you when you think about your responsibility to BPDx?

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« Reply #16 on: August 03, 2014, 10:33:21 AM »

I am a Christian, so I would mean God.  But even if we take God out of it (not sure we need to), is there a basic responsibility out of what is right?  I believe in both God and objective right and wrong, even if it is not always easily discernible.
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« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2014, 11:23:05 AM »

I am a Christian, so I would mean God.  But even if we take God out of it (not sure we need to), is there a basic responsibility out of what is right?  I believe in both God and objective right and wrong, even if it is not always easily discernible.

You have a responsibility to your children. That is it. So if she's making you nuts then ask yourself if it helps your children to let her make you nuts. At the very least stress is unhealthy and your kids need you healthy. With things like work stress there is at least the payoff of a paycheck. Where is the payoff in trying to get her to see a truth she will not ever be able to see?

My hope for my step kids' BPD mom is that eventually all on her own she will hit the kind of rock bottom that is so bad and so horribly lonely that it will be enough to cause her to seek help. That will probably never happen anyway.  But I know it will definitely never happen if we stay all engrossed in her attention seeking drama.
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« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2014, 01:42:49 PM »

I am a Christian, so I would mean God.  But even if we take God out of it (not sure we need to), is there a basic responsibility out of what is right?  I believe in both God and objective right and wrong, even if it is not always easily discernible.

Oh, I see what you mean.  That is a question that would stymie me, because engaging with her at all, even if in the name of doing the right thing, may lead to more problems with her.  So objectively speaking, is that more "right".  I am not sure?  Personally, I would feel as long as I truly believed I had done nothing wrong in the situation (and you most certainly did nothing wrong), I would not feel compelled to engage with the BPD person on the subject.  I understand what you are saying though.
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« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2014, 03:47:14 PM »

I am a Christian, so I would mean God.  But even if we take God out of it (not sure we need to), is there a basic responsibility out of what is right?  I believe in both God and objective right and wrong, even if it is not always easily discernible.

So the answer lies between you and God. No one can answer it for you -- we can just tell you our experiences and what works for us.
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« Reply #20 on: August 06, 2014, 06:59:45 AM »

We try to imagine that we need to restrict the drama as much as possible because we feel that BPD mom is addicted to drama, and if we feed into it, then we are hurting her in the long run.

There is a good Bill Eddy article about how to respond to hostile emails:

www.highconflictinstitute.com/articles/parenting-a-divorce-articles/78-hci-articles/published-articles/87-responding-to-hostile-email
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« Reply #21 on: August 06, 2014, 08:00:00 AM »

Not always easy to shake off, but I agree that is the goal.  And yes, nobody likes getting yelled at.  It's a matter of living my life and detaching from a lost cause.  It reminds me of in the Gospels where Jesus told his disciples to "shake the dust off their feet" when a town did not receive their words and to "not case your pearls before swine."

I'm thinking of your response to me the other day which stated that submitting our all to Christ doesn't necessarily mean to be "crapped on" by a significant other perpetually.  I'm thinking she still has some power in your head/heart ("unread texts haunt me"... .which as you know I can totally relate to because I'm still in the center of the battlefield wrestling out even the initial decision to stay/leave... .  I agree with the person who said this may be something for you to look at and deal with inside yourself... . 

The LORD knows your heart, and your motives.  You actually want what's best for her, which is Biblical, and admirable! 

What's striking me this morning even for myself is that we are addressing two issues here... .the secular and the spiritual... .The secular/earthly/fleshly side is us here, on this message board, learning, growing, becoming better people... .looking at and addressing how we as a person are to deal with another person in our life... .  Alternately, and more importantly, is our LORD, and His call to us and clear Biblical exhortations to seek and follow Him above all else... .I just read this in Jude, ("... .keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our LORD Jesus Christ unto eternal life.  And on some have compassion, making a distinction, but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh... "  In John MacArthur's notes, it states, "there are either two or three groups of people being indicated here.  They are:  1.) sincere doubters who deserve compassion, 2.) those who are deeper in unbelief and urgently need to be pulled from the fire, and 3.) those declared disciples of apostasy who still deserve mercy, but are to be handled with much fear, LEST THE WOULD-BE RESCUER ALSO BE SPIRITUALLY SULLIED."  From more and more experience with my uBPDh, I find that it is possibly effecting me quite negatively, emotionally, mentally, spiritually to pour into him:  (is causing me to "BE SPIRITUALLY SULLIED", as MacArthur states... .) Just a thought.  Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #22 on: August 06, 2014, 09:26:29 AM »

sanemom, that is true.  I avoid telling her "the truth" because it needlessly provokes her and threatens other areas, such as relationships with the children.  If we did not share children, I would tell her the truth and probably tell her to "piss off" and never talk to her again.  So, I am protecting myself and my children, which is good.  Thanks for helping me clarify that to myself.

thereishope, it may be true that she's "still in my head" to some degree.  I feel that way at times.  But I also came to realize that it is not realistic to have "no feelings" at all about things she does.  I used to think that was a goal, and then I would be woefully dismayed and disappointed when I couldn't stop having feelings about her ridiculous behavior.  But I'm not a robot, you know?  I can certainly not allow her to "rent head space", but at the same time I can't really prevent having negative feelings when I know she's text bombing me.  I think that is pretty normal.  In time, those feelings will probably lessen more and more.  I think the goal is to let them come and go and move past them rather than dwelling and ruminating about it, and not letting the FOG get to me.  Still getting there Smiling (click to insert in post)
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« Reply #23 on: August 06, 2014, 09:30:25 AM »

I agree, OOE.  I have a long, long way to go to grasp how not to allow the things uBPDh says/does to affect me deeply and very negatively.
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livednlearned
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« Reply #24 on: August 06, 2014, 10:16:45 AM »

thereishope, it may be true that she's "still in my head" to some degree.  I feel that way at times.  But I also came to realize that it is not realistic to have "no feelings" at all about things she does.  I used to think that was a goal, and then I would be woefully dismayed and disappointed when I couldn't stop having feelings about her ridiculous behavior.  But I'm not a robot, you know?  I can certainly not allow her to "rent head space", but at the same time I can't really prevent having negative feelings when I know she's text bombing me.  I think that is pretty normal.  In time, those feelings will probably lessen more and more.  I think the goal is to let them come and go and move past them rather than dwelling and ruminating about it, and not letting the FOG get to me.  Still getting there Smiling (click to insert in post)

I think this is really important, OutOfEgypt. This is one of the hardest nuances I had to figure out. Actually, I'm still figuring it out. Detachment is not necessarily about not having feelings, it's about having them, and then responding in a way that leads to better outcomes for you and your kids. In fact, stuffing the feelings, or feeling like angry feelings are "wrong," probably makes things worse, and maybe even leads to depression, I don't know. But having the feelings is also not a free pass to behave badly, however you might define that. My son's guidance counselor at school said, "Anger is ok, aggression is not." I think that simple sentence had a big impact on both of us -- I took it to also mean passive-aggressiveness, which I was more guilty of. For S13, he was beginning to experiment with aggression, since he didn't see anything between aggression and anger. That's where Assertiveness 101 came in.

If you are someone who suppressed your feelings for a long time, and tolerated abuse, and you are coming to the surface after a long long time after enduring untold injustices, there is probably a lot of anger there, and maybe a strong desire to settle the score.

It really irritated me when I learned this, but when I got it, things started to get better. The anger is mine. I grew it, it's mine, it's about me. Anger that I cleaned up my ex husband's poop after a serious drinking binge, anger than I let him yell at me like that, anger that I stood by while he verbally abused our son, anger that I didn't leave when he threw our dog against the wall. If I direct my anger at him, it will stay out there, and it won't go away, because he can't resolve it for me. The reason this is irritating is because it's exactly what I wanted N/BPDx to do. Own his stuff. Always bugs me when I have advice for other people and then realize I'm not following my own advice.  

This isn't a warm and fuzzy thing where I'm trying to forgive him or develop compassion or take the higher ground. It's just paying really close attention to how anger works. You own it, you can let it go. Although I do think forgiveness and compassion seem to follow, or at least fleeting instances seem to start showing up.

That's why it helps to find out how others deal with the anger or detachment -- there might be something that connects with you, that fits with your view about what is right and wrong, and what is healthy. Whether it's the TED dynamic, or mindfulness, or praying, or whatever helps you work through this stuff. It's hard. This is the big league!



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« Reply #25 on: August 06, 2014, 02:27:56 PM »

In fact, stuffing the feelings, or feeling like angry feelings are "wrong," probably makes things worse, and maybe even leads to depression, I don't know.

We've learned talking with counselors that stuffing the feelings does in fact lead to much bigger issues. SS22 was his UBPD mom's "all good" child. He was a master at stuffing his feelings. When I first met my DH's kids, I thought SS22 seemed the most accepting. The other two were wary of me and either questioned me or were upset that I might be taking their dad away. Of course that was natural.

But SS22 always seemed calm and welcoming. His usual answer to how he was doing or how school was going was "fine". But then mom did something awful that affected all the kids. The youngest was sad and cried, the oldest was angry and confronted his mom. SS22 defended his mom and said he was fine. That was when it started being clear to me that SS22 was struggling.

Meanwhile, it came out that he'd been drinking/using drugs since he was 13 to try to cope and stay calm. He had almost no coping skills, other than self-medicating. He's been in several addiction treatment programs and talked with numerous counselors. They have all said he has great difficulty in addressing his feelings and as a result he struggles to learn coping skills . He's a little better today -- he'll say he's having a bad day or he's depressed or anxious -- but it is hard work for him. we help him articulate and acknowledge his feelings.

He will likely always struggle with all of this -- the addiction, depression and anxiety, plus the difficulty he has with his feelings. And they are all related.

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« Reply #26 on: August 06, 2014, 02:32:58 PM »

Excerpt
I think this is really important, OutOfEgypt. This is one of the hardest nuances I had to figure out. Actually, I'm still figuring it out. Detachment is not necessarily about not having feelings, it's about having them, and then responding in a way that leads to better outcomes for you and your kids. In fact, stuffing the feelings, or feeling like angry feelings are "wrong," probably makes things worse, and maybe even leads to depression, I don't know.

Yes, I agree.  I'm thankful for having a T who has helped me work through so much and see, realistically, that there is no such thing as having "no feelings" about my ex (or anything else, for that matter).  That is a pipe-dream that actually keeps me bound up, not freed.
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« Reply #27 on: August 06, 2014, 02:46:52 PM »

Actually, even while I was in therapy in the last years of my relationship with my ex, I still had this mental goal of being "bullet-proof".  I really thought that therapy would make me bullet-proof, able to handle anything.  It took me a while to realize that the goal was actually to experience who I am and what I feel so that I can -God forbid- actually *listen* to my feelings and perceptions. It was then that the novel idea of avoiding destructive people dawned on me.  HAHA.
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« Reply #28 on: August 07, 2014, 09:31:53 AM »

Actually, even while I was in therapy in the last years of my relationship with my ex, I still had this mental goal of being "bullet-proof".  I really thought that therapy would make me bullet-proof, able to handle anything.  It took me a while to realize that the goal was actually to experience who I am and what I feel so that I can -God forbid- actually *listen* to my feelings and perceptions. It was then that the novel idea of avoiding destructive people dawned on me.  HAHA.

I like this... .

I believe society, and even more so "the church" teaches us, whether out loud or beneath the surface, to PUT THE MASK ON... .The "Hi how are you?," - "I'm fine, and you?" mindset... .With our masks firmly in place, things on the outside may LOOK ok... .As a matter of fact, we actually WANT them to look ok because everyone else LOOKS ok too, so I need to LOOK ok so I can "be ok" like everyone else... .

BUT ... .AND THIS IS A BIGGGGGG BUT... .Smiling (click to insert in post)

I am NOT OK, and you are NOT OK... .In fact, NO ONE is OK... .We are humans... .and humans have problems, and feelings, and issues... .and mostly likely, every one of us has SOMETHING in our life at any given moment that SUCKS pretty bad and beneath the surface, beneath the MASK, we are crying and screaming and feeling hopeless and wrestling and trying to figure out how to deal with this life thing!

SOO... .Instead of trying to STUFF the "BAD STUFF" and keep making sure our MASK is on nice and neat and pretty... .WHY DON'T WE ADMIT the TRUTH of what we REALLY think, and feel, and are going through... .and in doing so, we might actually GET REAL AND GET HEALTHY, and then we might actually HELP EACH OTHER to BE HONEST WITH THEMSELVES AND POSSIBLY TO HEAL AND BE HEALTHY TOO!

Amazing possibilities exist when we are honest with ourselves and others... .Smiling (click to insert in post)
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