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Skills we were never taught
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A 3 Minute Lesson
on Ending Conflict
Communication Skills-
Don't Be Invalidating
Listen with Empathy -
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Setting Boundaries
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Author Topic: Intimacy and the pwBPD  (Read 380 times)
Entropy1

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« on: August 08, 2014, 09:46:23 PM »

For context, I'm pretty new here and naturally naive regarding what I'm facing in improving my relationship with my uBPD wife of 25 years.  I've found a lot of encouragement here the past few days, through both conversations and review of site resources.  I have a renewed hope we can move in a good direction dealing with the negative, hurtful behaviors associated with BPD.  At the same time, I've also been really shocked and troubled to realize how little genuine, mutual intimacy there has ever been in our relationship.  Even in the best of times, intimacy has been very one-sided (me supporting her, of course!), and I was pretty much blind to that.

So, I'm interested in your perspectives on the potential for mutual intimacy in a relationship with a pwBPD.  Even in a best-case scenario, what is it reasonable to hope for?  To what degree can a "recovering" pwBPD develop capabilities for intimacy?  What supports that development?

Thanks!
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Ceruleanblue
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« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2014, 02:37:50 AM »

Well, I've felt the lack of intimacy almost from the time we got married. It was like my uBPDh flipped a switch. I guess in some way you are lucky if you are just now realizing or feeling the lack of intimacy after 25 years. I'm glad you didn't feel it that entire time.

I'm not sure how much better it can get. I'd like to know that too. I know it's better to not expect a lot of change. For me, some change would be HUGE. If my husband even tried to connect on a somewhat consistent basis, that would be wonderful. He is fine with living with almost zero emotional connection. Like your wife, he expects me to meet all his needs, be there for him unconditionally, and share all his views and opinions. Let me tell you, that is impossible for me. I'm much better at trying to meet his needs(although he does nothing but complain that I'm not trying hard enough), than it is to try to share all his views.

It seems BPD can be severe or not as severe. I'd say my husband would be classified as severe, due to his rages, and frequent dysregulating, and his refusal to work on it. He has just recently admitted to me that he does have an "issue"... .so I haven't pressed him what he considers this "issue" to be. I read a lot on here about people who manage to make it work, and it seems you both have done so in your marriage. Maybe now that you know what it is, your marriage can get somewhat better yet?
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ziniztar
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« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2014, 06:16:51 PM »

My dBPDbf can do it when he's feeling okay. He can be genuinly interested, ask me what is in my mind, listen to my stories. When he's drinking he can talk about his own feelings as well.

When he's depressed, sad, angry, anxious, he'll push any type of intimacy away. There is no room for really asking how I'm doing. The other day he bashed me for getting him a birthday present at 0:00 because it meant he was forced to act happy when he felt really bad (he hates his birthday). I see it was invalidating in hindsight, but I got pissed he couldn't empathise with me - curious to find out what he thought of it.

What matters to me is that I know he is trying and doing all the best he can. As long as we're progressing, I am okay with it. For now.
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Ceruleanblue
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« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2014, 07:45:35 PM »

Ziniztar:

That is a really good attitude to have! I hope we can get to that place. Right now, and maybe forever, my uBPDh is not making any progress, and I hope that changes. I'm hoping that his seeing a psychiatrist might help, but he already went to his family doctor, was told this is all a "mental health issue", was prescribed something he only took for a week, then he went off it and did no follow up with his doctor. He doesn't want to hear that anything could be wrong, or that he is any less than perfect. He has strong narcissistic tendencies.

I'd be so happy with any progress at all. I look for progress. And I think your inquisitive nature is great too. You want to discover why he reacted the way he did. I try that as well, so I can perhaps head off the same bad reaction in the future. Just when I figure out one trigger though, he seems to develop a new one.

It's a dance, that is for sure.
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DreamFlyer99
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« Reply #4 on: August 12, 2014, 05:38:35 PM »

Entropy1--

I think the capacity for intimacy comes when the loved one suffering with BPD is able to challenge those dark and unhealthy inner beliefs of theirs that they are not worthy of being loved and that they will likely be abandoned. Until core beliefs are challenged, any of us will continue to react out of them.

I can best liken it to my own core beliefs that I formed when I was really young, that nobody was going to be there for me, and that I had to figure out how to cope with whatever horrors I faced. My parents were very unavailable emotionally, so I developed my own special little childish belief system. That left me wide open for my uBPDh's (undiagnosed BPD husband's) rages and attacks to decimate me as a person. I ended up dealing with those rages and verbal attacks like a terrified child rather than as an informed adult. Did that for years and years, like through the first 35 years of our marriage. (feel free to call me a slow learner!)

I say all that to show the incredible strength of our core beliefs, BPD or not.

This may sound silly, but honestly I missed human touch on my skin so much I started getting reflexology done, so I would at least for that hour have touch. A massage would serve the same purpose. I missed being able to tell somebody about my thoughts and my day, so I worked on friendships that would support that (and I found that my female friends understood me better anyway.)

I had to accept what my husband was unable to give me as "fact" and decide what I could and couldn't find as a sort of replacement for those needs. I decided to look at him as having a disability--I wouldn't expect him to go on a ten mile hike if he was in a wheelchair full-time. And the things he had no capacity to truly understand, i couldn't expect. Radical Acceptance for family members

It's all about weighing out how important the r/s is to us overall. The key is to remember the pwBPD is in a place of emotional immaturity, so in recovery they are in a sense "growing up" their emotional capacity for intimacy.

This article talks about how to support someone in recovery: Article 5: Supporting a Loved-One with Borderline Personality Disorder

We can support our loved one by using the tools here to have less triggering communication with them, and we really need to learn to take care of ourselves and not let that fall by the wayside. You've been very much like me, I too poured into my husband and children what I wanted, and loved doing so. I "hoped" I would get some of the same back. But I can only truly hope for something i have control over, so that hope had to come from my own behavioral changes and boundaries.

You and your wife both do want change, and that says a lot!


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Entropy1

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« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2014, 12:44:30 PM »

Entropy1--

I think the capacity for intimacy comes when the loved one suffering with BPD is able to challenge those dark and unhealthy inner beliefs of theirs that they are not worthy of being loved and that they will likely be abandoned. Until core beliefs are challenged, any of us will continue to react out of them.

I can best liken it to my own core beliefs that I formed when I was really young, that nobody was going to be there for me, and that I had to figure out how to cope with whatever horrors I faced. My parents were very unavailable emotionally, so I developed my own special little childish belief system. That left me wide open for my uBPDh's (undiagnosed BPD husband's) rages and attacks to decimate me as a person. I ended up dealing with those rages and verbal attacks like a terrified child rather than as an informed adult. Did that for years and years, like through the first 35 years of our marriage. (feel free to call me a slow learner!)

... .

Re: the power of core beliefs (in both me and my uBPDw), I agree completely.  I'm hopeful a new therapy relationship for her may help her become more aware of her beliefs and let her begin to challenge them.  It is hard to be patient, but I know at least that I can't fix this (her) myself.

Our stories are very similar, and now I see that even my personal core beliefs align well with yours.  I've phrased mine as "my needs don't matter" to explain my experience of others being unavailable to me.  So naturally I develop a relationship where my SO is unavailable and then use my only strategy for dealing with her rage (withdrawal and isolation) to fuel the rage fires even further. 

I appreciate the hopeful tone of your response with respect to her ("growing up" her emotional capacity for intimacy) and me both.  I've been working on Radical Acceptance already, and am trying to expand my relationship base via my sister and a married couple I know.   Re: female friends being better understanding, that's my expectation also, but that's limiting for me since I want to guard against emotional infidelity, etc.  Not a problem with my sister at least, and I'm careful to interact with my couple frienda as a couple.  I am also looking to develop more male friendships for companionship if not direct support.
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MissyM
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« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2014, 01:41:36 PM »

Excerpt
At the same time, I've also been really shocked and troubled to realize how little genuine, mutual intimacy there has ever been in our relationship.  Even in the best of times, intimacy has been very one-sided (me supporting her, of course!), and I was pretty much blind to that.

It is shocking when I sat down and looked at it all.  I also realize that my willingness to tolerate this behavior came from my childhood, adolescence.  I would act like a teenager, scream and yell, but would not keep a boundary about what was acceptable.  I can see that as my dBPDh is getting better at tolerating my feelings, that we are starting to build intimacy.  For us to be intimate, I have to be able to share who I am and how I feel.  I also have to understand who he is and how he feels, without taking that on and trying to fix him.  This is a new way to interact for us and it will take a lot of work.
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Hope0807
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« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2014, 01:46:43 PM »

I was profoundly disturbed by the lack of intimacy (on all levels) while in the relationship.  I just couldn't understand what happened to the connection and why it seemed so disjointed.  The glimmers of intimacy were as if I were a starving dog, occasionally getting tossed a bone.  The beginning of the relationship and his attention to "creating" that intimacy was SO intense that I clung on to those memories, literally for years.  He hinged on every word, every story.  He gazed into my eyes and made sure I caught him checking me out from across the room.  The pedestal he had me on couldn't reach farther into the clouds.  In hindsight, those intense moments are carefully practiced throughout their entire lives.  It becomes part of their methodology for navigating relationships.  If it's intense enough and seems genuine enough…you will always believe and try to have it resurface.  "It WAS there, so it can be rekindled."  That statement does not and cannot apply in a relationship with a BPD.  To believe that would be the equivalent of believing in a fantasy.  The (what appeared to be) genuine intimacy rolled in and out like the waves, and became less and less.  Intimacy in the bedroom was mechanical and entirely disconnected regardless of my varied attempts to achieve a small amount.  Intimacy outside the bedroom was a chore to him, and it took me some time to see it all for what it was.

As evidence of both the term "BPD" and his drug addiction came to the surface, my world has become clear.  I am thoroughly and fully convinced that genuine intimacy with a BPD is a futile attempt at what a non-BPD fully deserves…empathetic, compassionate love without distortions and manipulations.  I twisted myself into a pretzel for years trying to accommodate HIS needs, not knowing HIS ":)isorder" was completely sucking the life out of me.  I hope you find the answers that soothes your soul and helps you sleep soundly at night.  Looking back, I did not sleep well for years.
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Entropy1

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« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2014, 02:04:58 PM »

For us to be intimate, I have to be able to share who I am and how I feel.  I also have to understand who he is and how he feels, without taking that on and trying to fix him.  This is a new way to interact for us and it will take a lot of work.

I too have difficulty sharing how I feel, or even knowing how I feel, though my response to stress is withdrawal and isolation.  Thanks for sharing your thoughts, it is nice to hear something on the hopeful side.
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DreamFlyer99
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« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2014, 04:09:39 PM »

Entropy1,

there are as many variations on a r/s with a person suffering from BPD as there are people involved. What seems different about yours is that your wife is interested in things improving. Your boundaries sound like they have been expressed with love for her and your r/s. There have been successful r/s when the loved one with BPD is able to come out of their fears to engage, generally through learning tools in therapy.

I know it's easier to back off when the response to our boundaries is to make things even more painful for us. But the fact that your wife has expressed an interest and that you remain respectful of her makes a huge difference.

"my needs don't matter" is exactly how that feels, and I think for those of us who grew up with that written on our bones we don't necessarily recognize the lack of our needs being met until that lack starts spilling over into the rest of our lives. Glad to meet another "late-bloomer."

Oh--and great idea to build your support system! We really do need others.
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ziniztar
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Relationship status: I chose to end the r/s end of October 2014. He cheated and pushed every button he could to push me away until I had to leave.
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« Reply #10 on: August 18, 2014, 08:54:16 AM »

To give people some hope, my dBPDbf is in recovery, and I'm noticing changes in the intimacy. If it's been too much for while he'll push back again, but he's letting it in. Depending on how I express my needs (big change!), I see him thinking about what I said and taking it into account. It doesn't always work, but sometimes it does. We have very slow conversations in highly tensed situations where I barely say anything and just think - what is it that I really want? Can I say it to him? Then I express that in not too many words like a fact (and not in an insulting or victimized way!)

This weekend we were at a festival. He was triggering me because he tends to only think about his own needs and immediately acts upon them. Example: we had to walk back to the camping area (10 min walk) to fresh'n up. Instead of saying "I'd like to change my shoes before going to our next concert in an hour, do you need to go to the campsite?" He'll say: "I will go change my shoes. Are you staying here?" in the middle of a concert. That forces me to choose between staying at the concert and staying alone (I hate that) or adapting to his behaviour, leaving the concert early  :'( but being together - what I like.

When he asked me that question I'd usually say something like "I'll go with you" immediately, ignoring any other option. I'm at a point now where I am able to see the options, and share them with him to negotiate. So in this case I said: "I would like to see some more of the concert, but I do not want to stay here alone. How can we do that?" He is actually very creative at 'solving problems' once he is faced with them.

I notice that his egocentric behaviour used to set me off - now I am able to share my thoughts very slowly and it's difficult, but it already makes a huge difference. It helps us to communicate better, I am less passive agressive, I am thinking about what I want ( Doing the right thing (click to insert in post)) and our fights don't last that long anymore.  

The biggest change is within ourselves.
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