"You don't take care of me"

[Crumbling]

We argued until 1:30 in the morning last night.

He was angry that I was 'grumpy' all evening.  He was angry that I wanted an extra blanket on the bed.  He was angry about the way I worded a question.  I didn't respond really at first.  I just pointed out that anything I did resulted in anger.  Then, when it became too much, I started to cry hysterically. 

Once I was broken, I moved to the couch.  That seemed to be distance enough for me to feel angry.  I let it all out.  I'm angry that I don't have a partner that can support me.  I'm angry at myself for believing that he was capable of supporting me.  I'm angry that I have to spend so much of my energy looking after him.

He snorted at that one.  'Look after me?  You don't take care of me!  What the hell are you talking about?'

Then it occurred to me - that's why I feel so un-cared for... .he doesn't even know what caring for another human being is.  Is it possible that the concept is foreign and incomprehensible to him?  Is it honestly possible that he is incapable of knowing how to comfort and show care to another human being?

Does that mean all the attention, support, listening, comforting hugs, quiet calming responses I've given over this last decade hasn't even registered as me caring for him?  All the times I put up with his dramas and drinking, making sure he doesn't do permanent damage to himself or one else in the fits of rage.  All the times I offered forgiveness.  I've done that so many times that I've teased him that he is coming to the end of the 'seven times seventy' times one is to forgive another, as quoted in the Bible.  Does he see none of this as me caring for him?

Is he really as broken and incapable of empathy as it appears?  Even in the middle of me belting out why I was hurt into the darkness, he had the nerve to turn almost every point onto something about him.

At the end, I said, "You're right, this isn't about me, this is about you.  Like every other minute of every day of this relationship - it's all about you.  You're absolutely right, I have no right to feelings or emotion or burden or hurt."  At that point I shoved on my headphones, stuck my head under the pillow and cried myself to sleep.

On an up note, the sunrise was beautiful from the living room this morning.  The most vibrant deep orange seemed to float in the air, turning the dew drops into mirrors of colour.  A new day begins.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[Inquisitive1]

Sounds like a rough night. Arguing with a pwBPD is generally not a good use of ones time. I've found it helps me if I avoid arguing the facts and focus more on the underlying emotional causes of my spouses anger. You may also want use the SET technique. Then set a boundary on how long you'll stay around for an argument. It isn't helping anyone for you to stay up to 1 a.m. arguing with your husband.

Good luck, I1

[Entropy1]

Then it occurred to me - that's why I feel so un-cared for... .he doesn't even know what caring for another human being is.  Is it possible that the concept is foreign and incomprehensible to him?  Is it honestly possible that he is incapable of knowing how to comfort and show care to another human being?

... .

At the end, I said, "You're right, this isn't about me, this is about you.  Like every other minute of every day of this relationship - it's all about you.  You're absolutely right, I have no right to feelings or emotion or burden or hurt."  At that point I shoved on my headphones, stuck my head under the pillow and cried myself to sleep.

You articulate a core struggle here that I share, that it seems its always about "you" and can never be about "me".  Even if I succeed in supporting my uBPDw, avoiding conflict and anger (which is probably easier in my case than yours), I'm still left with this empty, hopeless feeling that I can never have the comfort and care, the emotional intimacy, that I long for.  I really don't know what to do with this. 

Last night was like this for me:

(1) we worked really well together debriefing with our kids (11 and 13) about their first day back at school, reading and signing paperwork, validating them.  My wife and I were a great team.

(2) we carved out some time (30 minutes) to debrief on her day, discussing her struggles and concerns.  She felt supported and validated. 

(3) I read to the kids and tucked them in while my wife read through some e-mail, including a couple of messages I'd sent to her earlier.

(4) We went to bed and held each other for a bit, then turned to go to sleep.  She seemed content and appreciative of my support.  (Unlike in your case... .)

(5) I was left wide awake feeling empty, lonely, and hopeless.

(6) I felt guilty for not being satisfied with (1) - (4) and feeling (5)

And yet, if I had tried to ask for her to reach for me (emotionally), I would likely have been painted as selfish and ungrateful.  If I had shared my struggles at work, it would likely have triggered contempt.  There is peace as long as I behave according to these unwritten rules... .

I don't want to diminish the importance of stopping conflict, not at all!  But even then, what is left for us?

Thanks for sharing your struggle.

[Cat21]

I'm sorry, Crumbling. You had a rough night and you must feel drained today! I feel for you. Most of my uBPDh's rages are at night, too. It's the worst because it's nearly impossible to leave. You hit the nail on the head about no concept of caring for another person. It is about them all the time.

Just today, I returned home from a few days away with friends. When I left on Sunday, I was very upset with my h, I didn't contact him for a day. I wanted to last two days, but I had to call about a pertinent matter. When he answered the phone, he immediately took issue with the fact that I never called him to let him know I had arrived safely at my destination. I reminded him that I was upset with him and didn't even want to speak with him because of a bad episode a few nights earlier. He made my no contact 100% about himself, and today when I arrived home, everything was "back to normal". I feel confused and empty. I still haven't forgiven him for his bad behavior last weekend and he's acting as if nothing ever happened. It is always a trial.

[Crumbling]

It helps to know other go through the same thing.   

[MissTajo]

I understand so much the frustration of giving your all and not being acknowledge. It is devastating.

My BPDbf has the same problem. I give it all and try so hard and he never sees it (when he is in BPD mood)

He says: 

* Im not active enough and thats why he is getting a belly (not because he never worked in his life and sleeps and plays videogames all day).

* I make unhealthy foods (he lives with his mother and they eat pizza and burgers all day and Im a vegetarian but somehow that belly is my fault)

* I never want to talk to him (i work all day, call him 3 times a day and at night Im too tired to be 2 hours on the phone... .I have a house to take care, I need to sleep and just because he sleeps all day and eats and gets bored I have to neglete my life and house to talk on the phone for 4 hours... .)

It's never enough... .It will never be enough... .And it will never be about me.

[waverider]

"You don't take care of me". Thats his reality, it is not yours. stop trying to meet his reality. Stop believing his reality. Stop trying to sell him your reality.

An extreme abstract example

Him: I think the moons made of cheese

You: Oh really, thats interesting

Him: Yes, can you go cut me a slice.

You: No, I dont think I want to do that.

Why would he say this>He is mentally ill. He has BPD he is mentally ill, his reality is different to yours, dont try to get him live your reality. Dont get pushed into defending yours.

He suffers from neediness. You cant fulfill neediness by trying to fill it. In his eyes as long as he still has needs you are falling short. He speaks in absolutes. If you are not fulfilling his needs=you never meet his needs. Trying to convince him of your efforts means you are invalidating his remaining feeling of need. It escalates.

Ultimately his needs are not your problem, your needs are. Address your own needs. He needs conflict, you dont, whos needs are being catered for at the moment?

[Inquisitive1]

Waverider, you give some of the best advice. Thanks for being here.

[kc sunshine]

"After I was broken"

Those words really hit home for me-- in my fights with my expwdBPD, we'd fight until I broke-- then somehow my brokenness would make her feel sorry/sorry for me (probably more of the latter) and she would get kinder. It was an awful pattern. Also, she could recover from our fights much faster than I could (maybe because she was used to having them in relationships and I wasn't?)

Anyway, sending you wishes for peace-- that sunrise sounds amazing.

[toomanyeggshells]

During one rage early in our living together, upbdbf screamed "Why can't you just take care of me".  It been stuck in my head for years.  He just unable to understand that I do take care of him, but not in the way that he wants or needs.  I'm only taking care of him if he is my 100% focus 100% of the time, which we all know is unrealistic and impossible. Anything less, to him, is not being "taken care of" and in turn, not being loved.  Its a no-win situation for me.  All the best to you.  I hope things improve for you. 

[ydrys017]

"You don't take care of me". Thats his reality, it is not yours. stop trying to meet his reality. Stop believing his reality. Stop trying to sell him your reality.

An extreme abstract example

Him: I think the moons made of cheese

You: Oh really, thats interesting

Him: Yes, can you go cut me a slice.

You: No, I dont think I want to do that.

Why would he say this>He is mentally ill. He has BPD he is mentally ill, his reality is different to yours, dont try to get him live your reality. Dont get pushed into defending yours.

He suffers from neediness. You cant fulfill neediness by trying to fill it. In his eyes as long as he still has needs you are falling short. He speaks in absolutes. If you are not fulfilling his needs=you never meet his needs. Trying to convince him of your efforts means you are invalidating his remaining feeling of need. It escalates.

Ultimately his needs are not your problem, your needs are. Address your own needs. He needs conflict, you dont, whos needs are being catered for at the moment?

Wow!  After reading this thread today, I don't feel as alone and confused - other people have the same experiences and fully  understand... .  Thank you!

[workinprogress]

"He suffers from neediness. You cant fulfill neediness by trying to fill it."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that their neediness transfers over to us.

I gave and gave to my wife.  I think our own needs end up getting neglected so badly that we become desperate.

I'm telling you all, I've been married for 22 years.  I cannot think of a single time that my wife has touched my back or my leg.

Sometimes my body just yearns for a little human touch.

It wears on me.

Also, if I need her to run an errand or to do something for me the answer is always "no." 

I have realized that she does do stuff for people when it benefits her or if she is being seen doing something that will make her look good. 

[waverider]

"After I was broken"

Those words really hit home for me-- in my fights with my expwdBPD, we'd fight until I broke-- then somehow my brokenness would make her feel sorry/sorry for me (probably more of the latter) and she would get kinder. It was an awful pattern. Also, she could recover from our fights much faster than I could (maybe because she was used to having them in relationships and I wasn't?)

Anyway, sending you wishes for peace-- that sunrise sounds amazing.

Soothing by projection. The pain is out of her into you. Now she feels better. She becomes validated and worthy by now being your rescuer.

It doesn't always go that way though. Sometimes if they really want to portray the victim if you start being more upset than them they believe you are stealing their role as victim, and get more angry.

Which ever way it goes it never seems balanced.

[waverider]

"He suffers from neediness. You cant fulfill neediness by trying to fill it."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think that their neediness transfers over to us.

I gave and gave to my wife.  I think our own needs end up getting neglected so badly that we become desperate.

I'm telling you all, I've been married for 22 years.  I cannot think of a single time that my wife has touched my back or my leg.

Sometimes my body just yearns for a little human touch.

It wears on me.

Also, if I need her to run an errand or to do something for me the answer is always "no."  

I have realized that she does do stuff for people when it benefits her or if she is being seen doing something that will make her look good.  

This is the Black hole principle. You can keep tipping your resources into it. It disappears continuously, there is nothing to show for your efforts, the hole persists. Eventually you run out of resources. The hole is no different it is still trying to draw stuff into it.

Being around a needy person can suck the life out of you if you dont impose limits you are comfortable with.

By continuing to play along you set a precedent and validate the behavior. 22 years of having it confirmed that this is acceptable is going to be difficult to convince otherwise.

Not saying you have to fight all neediness, simply that you need to see it for what it is and only give what you are happy to give. In otherwise give by choice not out of desperation or a feeling of obligation.

It is a personality trait, it is hard to stop without help. So you have to learn to with it, without being dominated by it.

[kc sunshine]

Oh so interesting, waverider, that's exactly what happened after our (hopefully) last fight. I got super-upset-- breaking-- and she got even more angry, accusing me of thinking I was the victim (as if that was even something I'd want to be). Your post helps me make sense of that shift.

It is wild how patterned this disorder is-- makes me think differently about what "crazy" is (as something deeply patterned instead of wild and unruly).

[waverider]

Oh so interesting, waverider, that's exactly what happened after our (hopefully) last fight. I got super-upset-- breaking-- and she got even more angry, accusing me of thinking I was the victim (as if that was even something I'd want to be). Your post helps me make sense of that shift.

It is wild how patterned this disorder is-- makes me think differently about what "crazy" is (as something deeply patterned instead of wild and unruly).

It is the thing I find fascinating about BPD. Illogical crossed emotional wiring between a wide variety of individual results in almost predictable patterns of behavior, displayed in individuals worldwide from different cultures, almost as if they have been attending a common brain washing training course.

Someone once said that if you randomly mix up too many random pigments, ultimately you end up with poo brown. No matter what you add from there it is near impossible to achieve any other color. Its the natural consequence of mixing random components that dont combine which produces a predictable unwelcome outcome.

The resulting behavior of this dysfunctional person then creates reactions in others that reinforce the character of the dysfunctionality, thereby completing the process.

[Inquisitive1]

A couple of statements here are really helpful to me and express concepts that may be key to successfully staying in a BPD relationship.

The black hole principle that you can never fill the empty neediness is really important. You can ware yourself out trying to fill the bottomless pit of need. On the other hand, meeting some of the pwBPD's needs is also important--everyone has needs. So, “see it for what it is and only give what you are happy to give. In other words give by choice not out of desperation or a feeling of obligation.”

“It is wild how patterned this disorder is-- makes me think differently about what "crazy" is (as something deeply patterned instead of wild and unruly).”

The behaviors of a pwBPD become easier to cope with once you realize they are patterned as are the reasons behind the behavior. With an understanding of these patterns and the reasons for them, one is armed to interact with the pwBPD much more adaptively. For example, I used to think my wife made many statements in an effort to intentionally manipulating me in a devious way, which led to anger, resentment and escalated fights. Now, I many of those statements as reflections of her inner pain and desperate attempts to deal with that pain.

[Sugarlily]

Then it occurred to me - that's why I feel so un-cared for... .he doesn't even know what caring for another human being is.  Is it possible that the concept is foreign and incomprehensible to him?  Is it honestly possible that he is incapable of knowing how to comfort and show care to another human being?

I think this may actually be true, many people with BPD have grown up in an invalidating environment where they have had to fulfil someone else's constantly changing, unpredictable and often irrational needs. Therefore they have learnt to mirror, to protect themselves from abandonment by changing like a chameleon, yet that haven't learnt really care for someone, not in a simple giving way. The little things don't register unless they are part of their original issues. So my bf recognises a morning cup of tea as caring because his mother always demanded one.

Maybe we can help by telling how we need to be cared for, not in advance which they easily forget, but at the time we need it. Several months ago I had a tragic situation at work involving the death of a child connected to our community. At the time I was holding it together for my staff and the child's friends, supporting the family, organising the funeral, liaising with different agencies and had to speak at the memorial service. I really needed his support and it seemed he just couldn't give it. Everything became about me neglecting him, his needs etc. Then he talked to a mutual friend who said he needed to take me away for a bit in the aftermath and make sure we did things that were distracting, give me lots of hugs and just listen if I needed to vent. He told me this with great joy and simply said "It is ok now I know I can do those things." After that he was amazingly supportive and caring, he just panicked as he didn't know what to do. He has said a number of times that he wishes I would just tell him what I want him to do to help or care. I really think he just doesn't have the resources to draw on. Not everyone is the same and my bf is high functioning and was in therapy at the time, so it may be different for others.

On an up note, the sunrise was beautiful from the living room this morning.  The most vibrant deep orange seemed to float in the air, turning the dew drops into mirrors of colour.  A new day begins.

Little things like this keep us going!

[Crumbling]

"Why would he say this>He is mentally ill. He has BPD he is mentally ill, his reality is different to yours, dont try to get him live your reality. Dont get pushed into defending yours."

Gosh this makes so much sense!  It may just become my new mantra.  Your right, he has an illness, I've got to remember that.  Love the person, hate the disease.  Thank you.

[Inquisitive1]

This is one of the most important things to learn.

"... .He has BPD he is mentally ill, his reality is different to yours, dont try to get him live your reality. Dont get pushed into defending yours."

Sugarlilly, keep in mind that men are from mars and women from venus.   Some of the stuff you're describing sounds like typical struggle between men and women. Emotional support doesn't come naturally to most men. We have to be told what the women in our lives need, otherwise it won't occur to us, we'll just go on doing our thing.

[Crumbling]

Sugarlily... .you've met my h!

"many people with BPD have grown up in an invalidating environment where they have had to fulfil someone else's constantly changing, unpredictable and often irrational needs. Therefore they have learnt to mirror, to protect themselves from abandonment by changing like a chameleon, yet that haven't learnt really care for someone, not in a simple giving way. The little things don't register unless they are part of their original issues."

My hBPD has always said that he grew up in a loving home.  When we met, only his dad was still alive so I had no one to ask, but I never really believed that.  "Oh, I was loved." he'd say, "I know how to love."  But he doesn't, and he is realizing that now.  He was alone a lot, as a child, I'd say.  Preoccupied mother, absent father and no brothers or sisters.  Only two step brothers that got to be with his dad.  And bullied in school for years, with no one to stick up for him.  He's been in therapy for eight months and I've learned more truth about his childhood than he'd shared over the previous eight years!  Strange hurtful coping mechanisms, I guess.  sad.

[flowerpath]

That “take care of me” business sure hit home with me last night.  I’d been doing these BPD strategies for 30 days straight and I was tired, inside and out, and I had had it.  All over one thing that is not that hard to do.  It takes 2 seconds.  Literally.  Flush the toilet.  That’s it.  Flush the toilet.

About three months ago, my husband stopped flushing the toilet after himself and it is just plain gross.  I totally understand forgetting some of the time, but here, it is nearly all of the time.  Last night when I walked into the bathroom to find the toilet unflushed again, and asked him, again, if he would please flush the toilet when he is done, do you know what he said to me?  “You flush it.”   

I know there are far more serious things going on in this world than a wife having to flush the toilet after her husband because he refuses to.   Sure, I can continue to flush it, but when that perfectly capable man said to me, “You flush it,” when I already live with all sorts of messes he has created, I knew at that moment that nothing I say will ever result in his flushing that toilet after himself because it doesn’t matter to him whether someone doesn’t like it.   

I decided that I would never say anything about it again.   Instead, I quietly dropped a pair of his underwear into the unflushed toilet.  And I wasn’t the one who fished them out. 

P.S.  I didn’t have to drop another pair in it today. 

[maxen]

this thread is heartbreaking. so many details in here were also true in my marriage. my sympathy with all of you!

[waverider]

That “take care of me” business sure hit home with me last night.  I’d been doing these BPD strategies for 30 days straight and I was tired, inside and out, and I had had it.  All over one thing that is not that hard to do.  It takes 2 seconds.  Literally.  Flush the toilet.  That’s it.  Flush the toilet.

About three months ago, my husband stopped flushing the toilet after himself and it is just plain gross.  I totally understand forgetting some of the time, but here, it is nearly all of the time.  Last night when I walked into the bathroom to find the toilet unflushed again, and asked him, again, if he would please flush the toilet when he is done, do you know what he said to me?  “You flush it.”   

I know there are far more serious things going on in this world than a wife having to flush the toilet after her husband because he refuses to.   Sure, I can continue to flush it, but when that perfectly capable man said to me, “You flush it,” when I already live with all sorts of messes he has created, I knew at that moment that nothing I say will ever result in his flushing that toilet after himself because it doesn’t matter to him whether someone doesn’t like it.   

I decided that I would never say anything about it again.   Instead, I quietly dropped a pair of his underwear into the unflushed toilet.  And I wasn’t the one who fished them out. 

P.S.  I didn’t have to drop another pair in it today. 

That made me laugh... Been through the exact thing myself. My case was even more ridiculous as she totally denied it was her

I removed all the toilet rolls as i didn't want to see them left in the toilet. soon fixed that one  . Though there are still lapses.

Dont worry about cracking it and throwing the guidelines out the window every now and then, I do it. Sometimes the carers hat is just not being worn at that time.

[Crumbling]

flowerpath, thanks for the laugh.  That was priceless, even if it was the 'wrong' way to deal with it!  I think we need to feel like we've won, or been heard, sometimes and if that means a little unconventionality once and a while, so be it!

For us, it's changing the empty toilet paper roll... .the similarities in our partners is mind blowing.  Thanks for sharing.