Would you stay or leave?

[Samuel S.]

Would you stay or leave, if you had enough money to make a personal choice? Granted, you love different things about your BPD. You may have children that you wish to have in a 2 adult family situation.

I am seriously thinking about if I were to have enough money and even if there would be a financial division, I would be released from this emotional hardship.

So, would you stay or leave, if you would be able to?

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[maxsterling]

Not sure if I understand your question - because in my case I would have more money if I was on my own.  So finances in no way dictate whether I stay.  But if I expand that to say that if there were no other complicating factors would I stay or go, I'd have probably left by now.  The complicating factor for me was that we lived together early on in the r/s (she was relocating here) when the BPD first showed up.  If I had broken off with her at that time, I would have been forcing her out into a city where she knew hardly anybody, with not much money, no job, and few possessions.  I just couldn't do that.  That was a year ago. Now that I understand BPD better and have grown more attached to her, I'm really not sure what I would do if I was somehow presented with an easy, no strings attached, out. 

[MissyM]

I stay for many reasons.  Each of us has to make the choice that is right for us.  My dBPDh and I have a long history together, 17 years married and friends for 8 before that.  We have children and a life together.  I am willing to stay in this marriage as long as he is working on himself and trying, it is a struggle for him and I give him a lot of credit for how hard he is working.  I know that my dBPDh didn't choose to be this way and that he wishes that he didn't have the problems that he does.

[itgirl]

You always have a choice.  Even if you think you don't, by choosing not to do anything that is a choice.  Maybe you feel the benefits of staying in this relationship outweigh the benefits of leaving.

You can either react in a helpless manner and continue to suffer or you can take action.  I am not advocating leaving our partners.  I am talking about putting boundaries in place so that we don't live a limited life.   

[takingandsending]

You can either react in a helpless manner and continue to suffer or you can take action.  I am not advocating leaving our partners.  I am talking about putting boundaries in place so that we don't live a limited life.   

itgirl, I agree and clearly the tools in this website promote development of healthy boundaries as essential to maintaining any relationship to pwBPD. My own FOO did not encourage/reward boundaries, and I readily admit that it is a very weak muscle in my emotional body. And entering into a RS with my uBPDw presents a pretty hard learning curve for developing that muscle. I think, from what I read of posts by Samuel S., is that he also had a rough go with FOO, as many of us probably have.

You are right. We make choices, and we are not helpless. But, at times, I do get overwhelmed, even with awareness that that is a choice, too. I can see more clearly that I have to choose in every moment I am with my wife whether or not I want to add to the illness within our RS or to stop making it worse. That's my half of our dance. I cannot control her choices.

However, I'd be lying if I said it doesn't cost me anything, i.e. limit my life. I feel like the most accurate thing I can aim for right now is to reduce the limitations in my life from my RS. If my uBPDw chooses to actively seek treatment and support, then the limitations may lessen. If not, I think there is only so far I can go in not making it worse. I am staying because of my young children with my wife. My goal is to teach them the very things that I didn't learn, like healthy boundaries, compassion self acceptance so that they can have as good a relationship with their mom (and hopefully with significant others as adults) as they can.

In truth, it does feel limited and one sided. I have to look into myself, into where I have undermined my own values and beliefs to reach some acceptance of how I came to be here. But I don't think that boundaries alone will make it feel unlimited and free. Of course, this is coming from one who has a lot of work to be done in this area.

[MaybeSo]

Staying or Leaving is a deeply personal choice.  What makes it more authentic and manageable, regardless of which choice you make... .is raising awareness of ability to choose.  That each moment... .we are choosing our lives.

Not sure what is meant by staying or not based on fianances, either.

Musings in general about finances and relationships.  I'm not sure it's ever a good thing to be in an adult relationship where we have chosen an arrangement where finances are playing a big role in staying or leaving. The dependency issues get very charged and very loaded when we at anytime feel that we would be unable to fend for ourselves on our own, either emotionally or financially, without another person.  We do better being inter-dependent and flexible, not totally dependent and fixed.  Sometimes we feel like we can't survive alone... .and it's isn't actually a fact.  We may be fine our even better in some respects alone, but it feels too scary to be alone,  for deeper reasons that may not be fully in our awareness.  Staying to support someone else, too, emotionally or financially as a sacrifice on our part (martyrdom) and thus they are totally dependent on US... .also not such a good idea.  Pretty unhealthy.  

I do not stay in the relationship b/c of concerns regarding finances,  his or mine... .or to avoid being alone.  (He feels he can't be alone and has a fundamental sense of disconnection and painful aloneness... .I do not have the same experience as he does) There were times when I was in a tough spot financially while in the relationship... .not any longer... .and it increased my awareness that I need to keep in touch with personal choice, integrity and keep working hard to gain more financial resilience once again.  This was done by getting out of the habit of over-focusing on my partner's behavior and putting my eyes back on my own paper... .so to speak.

However, I'd be lying if I said it doesn't cost me anything, i.e. limit my life.

All deep relationships come with a cost and limit us in some ways.  There are no 'costless' connections.  Anyone you are attached to will have their time to be a huge pain in the arse or be felt as a burden... even in 'normal' relationships.  (That goes for us, too... .our partners, BPD or not, will at times perceive being with us to be burdensome and a pain in the arse).  There are also costs that are unavoidable for all of us a result of deep connection.  For example... .if we love deeply... .we will all pay the cost of having to deeply grieve losses in our lives.  There is no way around it.  That is the high cost of deep connection for all human beings.  Relating is always burdensome at some level.

itgirl, I agree and clearly the tools in this website promote development of healthy boundaries as essential to maintaining any relationship to pwBPD. My own FOO did not encourage/reward boundaries, and I readily admit that it is a very weak muscle in my emotional body. And entering into a RS with my uBPDw presents a pretty hard learning curve for developing that muscle. I think, from what I read of posts by Samuel S., is that he also had a rough go with FOO, as many of us probably have.

Yes, boundaries... .it is a very hard, very tuff learning curve to learn boundaries as an adult, and many of us did not get permission to have boundaries in our FOO.   I was given gentle nudges for years in my life to learn and adopt better boundaries.  I ignored the gentle nudges and moved along in the comfort that I knew better and was just fine, thank you.  Finally... .the universe introduced me to my BPD partner.  There is NO BETTER TEACHER than a pw/ BPD or BPD traits to teach you experientially how critically important boundaries are and that you are responsible for taking care of yourself.   It's like the Universe banging you over the head.  BOUNDARIES!  And, no... . It's not fun... .it's flippin hard.  Most real growth that is badly needed... .is really, really hard.  

Sometimes... .I wish I'd paid more attention to the gentle nudges, but I didn't.  What can I say?   I'm stubborn.  

[Chosen]

I agree with MaybeSo, that finances should be the deciding factor in whether to stay or leave.  I understand that practically speaking it's something you will have to consider, but if a non is staying *just* because of money issues, he/ she will undoubtedly be left in that "victim" mentality ("I only stayed because I HAD to, I'm trapped in this relationship", and the actions will reflect that too.

As many have already said before me, it's a very personal decision, I think there's no right or wrong.  For me, I know I choose to stay.  I could leave, there's nothing that's tying me to the marriage if I didn't care about it any longer; but I want to stay and therefore I choose this path.  Yes, it's hard and it takes courage, but any decision takes courage. 

[takingandsending]

From what I have been reading it seems that there is some difference / distance between a undiagnosed pwBPD and diagnosed pwBPD, or maybe more accurately between partners really trying to get help and those that are not. I am finding it hard to shake the belief that if my uBPDw does not seek help for herself - and, like Samuel S., I am not talking about a medium, shaman or energy practitioner - that there can be enough positive change to stay long term. I am growing more positive and stronger as I work through SWOE and the lessons on this website and read more and understand more about both myself and my wife. But, it still feels like a very one sided mathematical expression, and I can't make it add up to a healthy relationship without some growth and connection on the other side.

In buddhism, I believe that we are all interdependently connected, and I chose this life lesson for certain, even upped the ante by having two children. But I won't live a life of fear, of verbal abuse and near constant blame, and of isolation and sadness. I know, Chosen, that there are real success stories like yours. Love, good will and kindness are a huge help, but it may not be enough to overcome this illness if the pwBPD does not choose to work on themselves. I think that is where the helplessness I feel comes from. Is this my filter, my choice? Yes, for now. I have to allow the space for grief and honesty to start the journey to heal. I appreciate the good discussion and support. Thank you.

[MaybeSo]

Staying or Leaving is usually fluid anyway.

I have left this relationship several times, once for up to a year.

Now I’m in it and staying.

I don’t think we would have had the growth we did…w/out some of the “leavings” we took.

We both do our own work, either through therapy or spiritual practice etc.  I don’t think I could be with a person who hasn’t done any personal growth or has no interest in that part of life.

My job is certainly not to stay and suffer and martyr myself in a painful relationship. That is not my job.  I had to do some of that as a child b/c I had no choice in the matter as a child…and I have lived ‘as if’ I had no choice in my adult relationships…and I really had to heal from that belief or that ’spell’.  When I operated from that belief that my job was to suffer or sacrifice in my relationships…I wasn’t a very loving partner…I was pretty angry and needy and exhausted all the time. Understandably. 

[MissTajo]

I stay because I am a stubborn mule.


Thats it.

[Boss302]

If I had broken off with her at that time, I would have been forcing her out into a city where she knew hardly anybody, with not much money, no job, and few possessions.  I just couldn't do that.  That was a year ago. Now that I understand BPD better and have grown more attached to her, I'm really not sure what I would do if I was somehow presented with an easy, no strings attached, out.  

You know, this reminds me of an incident I had with my BPDx during our divorce. She had been evicted by the sheriff for not paying rent (first time of three instances, as it turned out), and all her stuff was sitting on her front lawn. I came by to pick up some of the kids' things, and there she was on the lawn, crying. I overheard her asking a friend of hers to take her in, and the friend's pastor, who was nearby, was telling her not to.

Then she asked me to take her in. Now, keep in mind that at this point, she had been conducting a scorched-earth campaign second only the German invasion of Poland - she'd been using lies, distortions, false accusations, bad-faith bargaining, and parental alienation against me for well over a year. She even accused me of being abusive to her, and asked for a restraining order, which the judge threw out. And here she is, asking me, Mr. Abuser, the object of her blitzkrieg, for help. Why would she even ask? Because she knew I was nice enough - and still co-dependent enough - to think about it. I ended up telling her no.

Later, she played victim to two other landlords, who let her rent from them stay after nonpayment because they were nice too. After she played out her string with that, she started living with a family under the premise that she'd be there for a few weeks. She was there for five months. Now she's living in a hotel.

The common thread? These were all very nice people... .just like you were nice enough to take your BPD SO in, and were nice enough to not want to toss her out on the street.

And that brings up a HIGHLY unpleasant aspect of this particular disorder: sufferers tend to be highly manipulative, and play the victim to get what they want... .and they target nice people to get it... .nice people like you and me. I had to turn down my wife of 17 years, and mother of my children, to stop this cycle with me... .otherwise, she'd have been on my couch for years.

Take that for what it's worth... .

[Boss302]

Would you stay or leave, if you had enough money to make a personal choice? Granted, you love different things about your BPD. You may have children that you wish to have in a 2 adult family situation.

I am seriously thinking about if I were to have enough money and even if there would be a financial division, I would be released from this emotional hardship.

So, would you stay or leave, if you would be able to?

I chose to leave, but you have to make your own choices. But for me, the tipping point was that I realized that in all the caretaking and co-dependence, I'd lost myself. I was literally gone, and in my place, there was this minion, this Patty Hearst who went along with whatever crazy crap my ex put me through, all in the name of honoring my vows. When I realized that this was just propping up an awful situation, I was on my way out... .and all it took to finalize the decision was her treatment of the kids, which became horrid. I had to save myself for me and for my kids. They needed one stable parent.

I think the stay/leave decision boils down to deciding that your well being is as important as your spouse's, and when the spouse has BPD, that's hard as hell to do with all the FOG and manipulation. You have to be selfish to leave... .and that's not a bad word. A marriage is made up of two "selfs" who've agreed to love and honor each other, and if one "self" isn't pulling his or her weight, then the other has every right to leave.

You'll have to find your own path with this, but remember: you are worth saving, even if it's hard as hell to do.

[MissTajo]

You'll have to find your own path with this, but remember: you are worth saving, even if it's hard as hell to do.

This is so very true. But so, so hard to do... .

[Boss302]

You'll have to find your own path with this, but remember: you are worth saving, even if it's hard as hell to do.

This is so very true. But so, so hard to do... .

Took me about eight years to reach that point.

[MissTajo]

You'll have to find your own path with this, but remember: you are worth saving, even if it's hard as hell to do.

This is so very true. But so, so hard to do... .

Took me about eight years to reach that point.

What did you feel like when you got there?

[Boss302]

You'll have to find your own path with this, but remember: you are worth saving, even if it's hard as hell to do.

This is so very true. But so, so hard to do... .

Took me about eight years to reach that point.

What did you feel like when you got there?

I think I built up to it for a long time, but the final straws were 1) she was verbally abusing my oldest daughter, and 2) we were in a very bad place financially and were about to lose our home. I had to move the kids out, and BPDx's behavior made that easy to justify. But it took a long time to get to that point - if the same circumstances had happened three or four years earlier, I wouldn't have left.

[takingandsending]

Hi MaybeSo. When you left, were you still caring for your SO's children? If so, if it's not too personal, how old were they when you left for a year? Likewise Boss302, how old were your children when you left? My T has helped me to see that my capacity to be a loving, caring father is my litmus test for this relationship. I am still feeling positive and better (than pre-realization that spouse has BPD) about my parenting and relationship with my sons. As long as that continues, I feel like I should remain. I am doing a better job of balancing my own needs for support and communication outside of my RS to stay positive with my kids. I am developing the much needed boundaries, by generally bailing earlier on communications when they sour and by trying to stop JADEing. To leave the RS and co-parent my S8 and S3 just doesn't seem like good timing. And yeah, it does feel a bit like martyrdom, but I still do hold on to the belief that parents are supposed to make sacrifices for their kids. It's a fine line, to be certain. I hope I am doing more good than harm. And you are right, it's hard to be a good partner to my wife under this circumstance. I will keep trying to learn and employ the tools and not make it worse.

[MaybeSo]

To be clear, I have my own place, and my partner has his own place... .but we do spend a lot of time dwelling together.  

My leavings were under conditions where no small children were at risk.

My daughter is 23 years old now, about 3 years ago... . I did leave his home that I had been sharing for over 2 years (didn't have my own place at that time) during one of his more awful downward spirals b/c my daughter had just come to stay the summer with us on break from university... .and I wasn't going to expose her to the black hole from hell that he can be when depressed.  He was basically bullying me to leave.   So, I moved out. I rented my own cottage for a while, then eventually bought my own home... .and I've been in my own home ever since.  We were not a couple for over a year during this time... .with little to no contact. His kids were mid teens, my daughter was about 20 when I left at this time. But again... .his kids have their own mom... .they were attached to me but not dependent on me.  I kept in touch with his kids if we were apart.

His children have their own mother and were in early teens when I was co-parenting them... .and now late teens and can come and go from their fathers home to their mothers home as they like.  

He and his ex wife were pretty acrimonious when they lived together (married 16 years)... .the kids were spared their constant fighting and blame/shame battles when they finally separated and divorced. Mother tried to get majority custody stating he was a rageaholic and that she feared for the children if they spent time alone with him. There was no evidence that he was a danger to his kids. there was plenty of evidence that their marriage sucked and that they both contributed to the problems.  They ended up with 50/50 custody... .the kids  would remark that things were so much better and more peaceful now that dad and mom were not together ... .in a couple of years they were older and could pick/choose who they are with ... .the boy kept doing his 1/2 time with his dad... .the girl and my partner had a more difficult relationship... .so she chose to spend more time at moms house... .but still with dad sometimes.  The new American family.  

[takingandsending]

Well, you hit the nail on the head. I often wonder if my kids would feel relief when/if their highly conflicted parents split. But they are so very young. And my S8 does get a lot of verbal abuse/blame from his mom. I am not sure what my leaving would do, and who would be parenting my kids 50% of the time if my wife went into another relationship, which I think she would likely do. And I still do love her, but as you noted, my tolerance and ability to listen and be empathetic has nose dived as I ignored my own needs. I hope that, by addressing my needs myself, I can find the space to see her with less judgment and resentment. It comes and goes. MaxSterling gave a nice analogy on the lack of self-identity pwBPD suffer from. It helped me to re-frame things yet again. It's like living with a very blurry image that sometimes flashes brilliant beauty, sometimes equally brilliant cruelty, but is always in motion for fear of seeing itself. Again, thanks for sharing your story. I appreciate that you took great risk to protect your daughter and yourself. I hope that your relationship improves and grows. 

[Samuel S.]

I am daydreaming about buying a lotto ticket, winning enough money so that I can split it down the middle, and then leave. After all, she's hardly ever around anymore for our relationship, anyway! That's why I have posed this question!

[Boss302]

Hi MaybeSo. When you left, were you still caring for your SO's children? If so, if it's not too personal, how old were they when you left for a year? Likewise Boss302, how old were your children when you left? My T has helped me to see that my capacity to be a loving, caring father is my litmus test for this relationship. I am still feeling positive and better (than pre-realization that spouse has BPD) about my parenting and relationship with my sons. As long as that continues, I feel like I should remain.

My kids were 13 and 9 at the time of the separation... .and I saw no other options. BPD mom was a completely non functional mess, and so was our family. The kids were in desperate need of stability.

Once I left, we were able to slowly rebuild our lives, to the point we're at now, which isn't perfect, but it's stable. But life continued pretty much down the same path for BPDx.

[MissTajo]

I am daydreaming about buying a lotto ticket, winning enough money so that I can split it down the middle, and then leave. After all, she's hardly ever around anymore for our relationship, anyway! That's why I have posed this question!

Better make that lotto ticket something metaphorical or you can be waiting for a long time... .

[Boss302]

Sorry for the duplicate post

[vortex of confusion]

Well, you hit the nail on the head. I often wonder if my kids would feel relief when/if their highly conflicted parents split. But they are so very young. And my S8 does get a lot of verbal abuse/blame from his mom. I am not sure what my leaving would do, and who would be parenting my kids 50% of the time if my wife went into another relationship, which I think she would likely do.

I have four kids with my spouse. He hasn't been diagnosed with BPD but many of his behaviors are very much in line with things that I have read here and in other places. One of the reasons that I choose to stay is because my kids have asked me to stay. I was ready to move out at one point but the kids asked me not to do it. On top of that, one of my concerns is the fact that he shows such poor judgment and I worry that he might put the kids in danger. Maybe I am crazy but I worry that he would find a partner that would be a bad step mother. I worry that I am being controlling by staying to make sure that I am able to monitor the environment my kids are in and act as a buffer. I know that he would get visitation but I don't know that he would be able to keep things together and provide a good environment for the kids. I feel like that is controlling on my part but I also feel like it is one way that I can protect my kids from having a step parent that could do way more damage than them being exposed to our conflicts. I try to find ways to minimize the conflict.