D8

[Mutt]

Every visit it seems like the kids open up a little more and they tell me how the feel openly and they approach me, sometimes out of the blue. I should really say D8 because my sons are too young.

I was downstairs today and D8 came into my room and sat on the bed. She was telling me how she gets frustrated with S6  because she gets in trouble often at home with mom. Mom listens to him and gets angry at her and yells.

I told her there are two sides to every story. S6 has his story and she has her side of the story - she has her voice. I'm sorry that mom isn't listening to her but not everyone knows that there are two sides. It must feel frustrating and hurtful when someone doesn't listen to what we say. If she felt like she wasn't heard that she can interpret what she believes to be true and sometimes it's better to not continue trying to explain if the other person is not listening.

She said there's always fighting at home. Mom gets very angry at SD15 and all of the kids at home but not her boyfriend. I asked her sometimes you have long days at school? Maybe you don't feel very good when you're getting out of school. Going to work can be like that for some people but it doesn't mean that it's right. I'm sorry that you are all going through this but you know at dad's house things are different. She broke down crying and said "It's different here dad because you don't yell and scream at us. You and SD15 are the only people that listen to me. Mom doesn't listen to me and I don't like going to her".  

I hugged her and soothed her for awhile and told her ":)8 dad's place is a place where you can relax from the yelling at home. I know it's hard having your bed at home and being in two places and I'm sorry. Dad will always be here for you to listen"

It pains me I can't protect them 100% of the time from mom.

[Mutt]

I don't have to ask D8 how her day went when I pick her up from daycare. I noticed a change. She opens up and tells me how her day went without asking. She tells me about troubles her with interactions between kids and staff. Consistency in validation works.

[thinkingtooslowly]

That's really sad.  Hopefully you showing her a different way will help her develop resilience for when she is over there.

[david]

Our boys are 15 and 11 now. They pretty much do the same things. On the positive side, they are talking to me because they trust me. They both have problems dealing with their mom. It is what it is. When they come to me to vent I listen. One thing I think helps is I sometimes talk to them about how they feel and say something like , "so you can learn that doing this to someone hurts their feelings. You know that and that is a good thing. You can learn how not to do that so you don't hurt someone else."

[Mutt]

What I anticipated is happening. Mom's starting to split D8 black. I ask the kids how their week went and D8 mentioned that she told mom about bf yelling at S3 and putting him in his room and yelling some more. She said she went to tell mom about bf and mom didn't didn't listen and told her she was being "rude".

It took years to figure what rude meant when my ex uses that word. There's FOG attached to that "rude" she uses it out of context often and to trigger Guilt. If she blamed me for something she would say "Mutt your always so rude to me!"

I have seen this pattern before with SD15 when she was 8 and mom was splitting her. I didn't understand black and white thinking back then. My D is the same age when SD was starting to get split black.

If you speak against mom's authority she is Queen and she splits. On the occasion Witch comes out. My question is what do you tell an 8 year when mom splits them black? I could tell my D was upset tonight but I don't know what to tell her to cope over at mom's.

Any advice?

[Turkish]

That's so sad, Mutt.

Maybe you can have a discussion on rudeness. Ask her what she thinks rude is, then tell her what you think it is. Doing so, if she understands, ask her if she thinks telling her mom that is being rude. Let let make the conclusion without rescuing. She sounds mature enough to probably get it.

Discuss rudeness first apart from the incident. Do it in general terms that an 8 year old would get given what she encounters at school and such. Age appropriate.

[Mutt]

Thanks Turk. The word is a tell now.

I'll talk to her and I agree I think she'll get it. I also appreciate that you pointed out to make sure it's age appropriate.

Are you saying that she should tell mom if mom thinks it's rude? I think I'm not understanding. If I reflected or questioned ex she gets defensive and blames. What's the anectode for a child not to push back on a PD parent when they have you split black? From my experience the Queen role escalates and she bears down and sometimes is mean and cruel - Witch.

I know how to deal with ex when she's Queen but an 8 year old?

Also do borderline women sometimes have jealousy and compete for attention with daughters? I ask because my ex usually has issues with women in the family.

[david]

My xBPDw likes to use the word rude whenever she is confronted with some truth that doesn't fit her imagined reality.

[Turkish]

Thanks Turk. The word is a tell now.

I'll talk to her and I agree I think she'll get it. I also appreciate that you pointed out to make sure it's age appropriate.

Are you saying that she should tell mom if mom thinks it's rude? I think I'm not understanding. If I reflected or questioned ex she gets defensive and blames. What's the anectode for a child not to push back on a PD parent when they have you split black? From my experience the Queen role escalates and she bears down and sometimes is mean and cruel - Witch.

I know how to deal with ex when she's Queen but an 8 year old?

Also do borderline women sometimes have jealousy and compete for attention with daughters? I ask because my ex usually has issues with women in the family.

I would validate D8 so she understands that what she is doing is not rude (and maybe she'll come to the conclusion that her mother is the one being rude... .projecting). I would agree that D8 throwing it back in her mom's face, even with some type of 8 year old version of SET may not go over very well. The first goal would be to get D8 to realize that she is doing nothing wrong. With SD15, you didn't have the Mutt knowledge that you do now (SD15 lived with your for a while, right?), and were still in the relationship, doing what you could to deal with their mother and your children as they came. Validating D8 will go a long way, and it sounds like you've been doing well so far.

The jealousy (insecurity) regarding your stbxw's dealing with other females... .not sure how to offer advice on how to protect your D from that. When I was split black as a teen (I know that's a bit away) I just remember my mom telling me I was talking back all of the time. At some point, I just shut down because communication was hopeless when split black. 

[Mutt]

My xBPDw likes to use the word rude whenever she is confronted with some truth that doesn't fit her imagined reality.

I agree. Dissociating her reality / feelings. D8 triggered her. My ex is idealizing the bf and sticking up for his continued dysfunctional discipline and emotional abuse. It's disheartening the kids don't have someone in their corner around mom. - I got ejected last year. Having said that i have control at my house.

Ex isn't around anymore throwing up FOG and having everyone walking on eggshells around her. That's the plus side. I can do this in peace and get real work accomplished.

I would validate D8 so she understands that what she is doing is not rude (and maybe she'll come to the conclusion that her mother is the one being rude... .projecting). I would agree that D8 throwing it back in her mom's face, even with some type of 8 year old version of SET may not go over very well. The first goal would be to get D8 to realize that she is doing nothing wrong. With SD15, you didn't have the Mutt knowledge

D8 is smart. An old soul for such a young girl. She impresses me. I had a talk with her today and validated her and asked her what "rude" means to her. I also asked her if she thought that the word can be applied to what mom described and she said no. She was a little confused.

Often she will tell me what transpired at school and daycare when I pick her up after work. I ask her how her day went and she'll tell me about other kids, teacher or after school workers and what bothers her. I validate and explain to her that sometimes kids are mean and cruel or whatnot because they may feel jealous of her, try to make her feel bad etc. I tell her to disengage and walk away or simply say"I'm not going to play with you when your like that" then walk away. If kids are not treating you or talking to you nicely, you can choose to walk away and engage later when they are nicer.

What I do re-enforce is to listen to her intuition. In this case with mom I asked her if she thought mom was wrong with using that word. She said yes. I told her to lists to her voice. Trust it. Sometimes adults may say something because they misunderstood, sometimes adults aren't always right. Best thing to do is listen to that voice and if you know you're right, say nothing.

I tell her if she feels like telling dad something. It's between her and dad and doesn't go back to mom. If she doesn't feel comfortable telling dad. Tell a teacher at school.

I want to teach her to trust her judgment, trust her perception and how she registers reality even though it may be invalidated. I also want to teach her that knowing that her intuition is right, she doesn't need to defend said reality with another child, adult or a parent that is personality disordered.

With SD15, you didn't have the Mutt knowledge that you do now (SD15 lived with your for a while, right?), and were still in the relationship

Yes. I lived with her for 7 years. I was in the FOG. The upside is I know better now, I'm wiser our r/s  can resume later if she chooses to. I can listen / validate and perhaps restart the r/s in a positive light. Hopefully I can help her. Only time will tell.

When I was split black as a teen (I know that's a bit away) I just remember my mom telling me I was talking back all of the time. At some point, I just shut down because communication was hopeless when split black.

You brought comfort to another dad Turk. Thank you for sharing this experience. I think I'm over-reacting.

I want to teach the kids that there are peaceful ways with dealing with conflict. I know my ex when I was split black and if I pushed, it was bad. I don't want them to trigger Witch. My SD15 pushed back when she was a pre-teen. It's the nature of development and I saw how she was treated by ex. I don't want my kids to push like that. By the time their adolescents it's a whole other ballgame. As you say you didn't push back. Here where I live, by the time their 13 they can choose what parent they want to live with. My goal is to continue with fostering an emotionally safe environment and validate. Hopefully they will see one place is calmer and be wise enough to pick dad. That's my goal anyway.

[Turkish]

Oh I pushed back, and got smacked around and raged at worse, at one point my mom luring me into family counselng (as if I had a choice), only to abandon me after the first appointment, much like my uBPDx did 30 years later. My mom started going off on me in the only joint session. The T didn't intervene. I was 13 or 14, and I knew "what was up." I stayed away from the house as much as possible starting around 15. I literally shut down and had a seizure in one raging incident, the only time my mom admits that she may have abused me.

There was no one on my side. Your D has you, and that's a great thing  

[livednlearned]

The conversation you had with D8 is great, Mutt. You are asking her what she thinks and feels, and helping her work through something that is deeply confusing. Encouraging her to listen to herself is going to go a long, long way. Keep giving her good feedback that her instincts are good, and to trust them.

It's so painful to think that we have to send our kids into this battle zones, but I guess the flipside is that those battle zones are going to be in their lives whether it's with the other parent or a boss or a class mate or a teacher. What you're doing is giving her lifelong skills to deal with these situations.

I think the word "confusing" is key, too. Help her understand that when she feels "confused" it could be a sign that someone else is acting in manipulative ways. The manipulation might be to mask shame or some other kind of hurt, and that person doesn't have the skills to cope in healthy ways. Your D might be too young to understand, but she also sounds very wise and she has you, encouraging her to keep listening to her instincts.

My son has exceptional insight at 13 and I believe it's because we started having these conversations when he was 9. Not just about N/BPDx, but about characters and scenes in books or movies. Things that happened at school, like the scenarios you talk to your D about.

One thing to watch for is that D8 may be wondering why, if you understand her mom so well, does D8 have to go there? If she asks you point blank (if she hasn't already), be as honest as you can with her without using it therapeutically for yourself. Not that you will, but I think it's an easy line to cross when we ourselves are experiencing so much hurt. It's a whole other level of validation when our kids want to sort out difficult truths before we think they're ready. Or we feel that "alienation" is hanging over our heads and end up pretending like things are ok, when they are anything but. If that situation happens, I suggest always go with the truth. You can say that one of the reasons you don't talk about this is because her job is to be a kid, and you are the grown up, your job is to deal with things as best you can with other grown ups. If she has questions, she can always ask, but you aren't going to treat her like a grown up so that she can do her job, which is to be a kid.

I think it's important with our kids -- when they ask us -- to be truthful in age-appropriate ways. They aren't getting that with the other parent, and they know we don't tell them everything. So when they do ask us questions about what is happening, we can't blow it.

[david]

Kids "should" be able to talk to their parents and learn how to deal with difficult people/situations/ etc. When one parent is the difficult person it makes things harder for them. I can see where not trusting your instincts develops from such a dysfunction. I think kids are wired to accept what their parents say and do as the right way. When that doesn't make sense they have to find a way to make sense of it. That leads to very convoluted thinking.

[Mutt]

Oh I pushed back, and got smacked around and raged at worse, at one point my mom luring me into family counselng (as if I had a choice), only to abandon me after the first appointment, much like my uBPDx did 30 years later. My mom started going off on me in the only joint session. The T didn't intervene. I was 13 or 14, and I knew "what was up." I stayed away from the house as much as possible starting around 15. I literally shut down and had a seizure in one raging incident, the only time my mom admits that she may have abused me.

I'm sorry to hear that Turk. I forgot. My dad splits as well. Although he doesn't anywhere as physical as your mom.

I had to go to a P. It was mandated by the group home (government) We had one session together. I recall getting triggered by him and him showing the P and pointing his finger at me. Triangulation. I felt pretty small and defeated. I'm the bad guy, I'm in a group home because dad split me black.

Not something I would do to my kids. I'd take ownership.

There was no one on my side. Your D has you, and that's a great thing  :)oing the right thing

No one on my side either Turk. It's a good thing your kids have you on your side as well  It's a great thing for you too. For both our families. We lived this. We know better.

The conversation you had with D8 is great, Mutt. You are asking her what she thinks and feels, and helping her work through something that is deeply confusing. Encouraging her to listen to herself is going to go a long, long way. Keep giving her good feedback that her instincts are good, and to trust them.

Thank you livednlearned. We talk almost every day. Usually right after pick up from daycare. Most of it is day to day things. Things I forget but I need to remember this is her world.  I teach her how to cope with her peers, the ones  that emotionally hurt her. I keep it simple but she understands. Often we go through the same things, hopefully like anything else it takes practice.

The mom stuff comes out at pick up times. I ask them "How'd your week go?" Since I have been validating them over a period of a few months I built trust (at least I think so?)

I mostly just need to ask and they open up. That's when I validate about mom and bf. We go through what they feel on Fridays once every second  week. The rest is day to day things.

I didn't have a positive role model growing up to rely on parenting skills. I rely on instincts, what feels right. I raised myself up really after my adoptive mom died.  With a PD parent I find there are some things I don't have an answer to. Not in the sense that you can relay to a kid.

I learned telling  her to trust her instincts from learning it on these boards and same goes for validation.

I think the word "confusing" is key, too. Help her understand that when she feels "confused" it could be a sign that someone else is acting in manipulative ways. The manipulation might be to mask shame or some other kind of hurt, and that person doesn't have the skills to cope in healthy ways. Your D might be too young to understand, but she also sounds very wise and she has you, encouraging her to keep listening to her instincts.

That's the thing. It took awhile to register because of her age. She's wise. She's smart. I think she may understand manipulation because some people can't cope with how they feel. I have explained projection but didn't give her a clinical name to it.

The bf projects anger and frustration on the kids. I think it may be projected from my ex and he takes it out on them. Maybe he's PD or both. I really don't know the guy.  Mom's outbursts and projections hurt her as well.

I  explained to her that sometimes people have feelings inside that they don't know how to deal with, like mom's bf or mom.  They don't know that they do it but the take those feelings out on others. It makes you feel scared, hurt and feeling bad?  Those feelings belong to them, they aren't your feelings. But it's OK to feel scared because of how they act.

I've had to explain the disproportionate anger outburst at home on her and her siblings. She understands and I re-enforce it when it's appropriate.

My son has exceptional insight at 13 and I believe it's because we started having these conversations when he was 9. Not just about N/BPDx, but about characters and scenes in books or movies. Things that happened at school, like the scenarios you talk to your D about.

I'm happy to hear the work is paying off for S13 livednlearned. This is what I'm trying to achieve.

I talk about the experiences they go through daily and demonstrate how to emotionally cope. I'm trying to demonstrate it so they can apply it to other things later and cope with mom too. It feels good to simply talk to her and she's receptive.

It's a whole other level of validation when our kids want to sort out difficult truths before we think they're ready. Or we feel that "alienation" is hanging over our heads and end up pretending like things are ok, when they are anything but. If that situation happens, I suggest always go with the truth. You can say that one of the reasons you don't talk about this is because her job is to be a kid, and you are the grown up, your job is to deal with things as best you can with other grown ups. If she has questions, she can always ask, but you aren't going to treat her like a grown up so that she can do her job, which is to be a kid.

I think it's important with our kids -- when they ask us -- to be truthful in age-appropriate ways. They aren't getting that with the other parent, and they know we don't tell them everything. So when they do ask us questions about what is happening, we can't blow it.

I agree. It's for her to be a kid first and foremost. That's a really important point. Her parentification had me worried. Taking care of the other two because mom's sleeping in. Mom's out doing an errand and bf is playing Minecraft and mom says she's in charge watching the kids. I nipped that in the bid at my house. I told her dad's the adult / the parent and

Its my job. Your job's to be a kid, relax, play. she said a few weeks later she likes being with me on my time because she has less things to do, she's not busy like at home. I'm single, no gf. They have 2 adults and a teenager over there.


I do it a little different. I'm going by intuition. I touch down on mom's dysfunctions once a week or they may randomly say something. The bulk of it is peers, adults like teachers etc. I'm coming from a point of view of coping emotionally with what she understands. Validating a little more when it comes to mom but I get a curveball thrown from time to time and improvise as best as I can. This time I came here and asked. It didn't sit right.

I can see with D that mom's behaviors confuse her. I'm not to worried about me being alienated, I certainly hope I'm not alienating mom?

Kids "should" be able to talk to their parents and learn how to deal with difficult people/situations/ etc. When one parent is the difficult person it makes things harder for them. I can see where not trusting your instincts develops from such a dysfunction. I think kids are wired to accept what their parents say and do as the right way. When that doesn't make sense they have to find a way to make sense of it. That leads to very convoluted thinking.

david, I think we're on the same wavelength. I wholeheartedly agree  

[Turkish]

That's interesting that you're worried about alienating their mom, Mutt. I was thinking about where that line is here. It's a fine line to walk, but I'd think invalidation would be worse. If D8 and the other kids later figure things out on their own, then it's not alienation to allow themselves to express their feelings.

"Wow kids, now you get it! No wonder I'm not married to your mom anymore, eh?"

Now that might be alienation 

[Mutt]

That's interesting that you're worried about alienating their mom, Mutt. I was thinking about where that line is here. It's a fine line to walk, but I'd think invalidation would be worse. If D8 and the other kids later figure things out on their own, then it's not alienation to allow themselves to express their feelings.

"Wow kids, now you get it! No wonder I'm not married to your mom anymore, eh?"

Now that might be alienation  

I misunderstand the concept  

"Wow kids, now you get it! No wonder I'm not married to your mom anymore, eh?"

None of that What I have been doing recently is raising the subject of mom. It hurt for a long time and it still does. From what I hear some divorcees say it takes years for the pain to subside. A personality disordered partner may be different.

It was really hard to hear about her and bf when the kids talked about mom. I kept quiet hoping they the subject would silently stop. I don't want them to think it's taboo. It's still hard to hear.

I'm centered but sometimes it feels surreal from the way she abruptly pulled the rug on 6 lives. It makes me wonder how long and how much she thought about "divorce" Above all, she did the right thing.


The dysfunction at home in front of the kids stopped. I don't know how things would of escalated? My ex is very sick. My personality and hers just don't mesh. What I mean is I'm analytical, logical and it triggers her. It would of ended at some point anyway. I didn't expect it to be this ugly. I also didn't expect the insane difficulties with custody. There's some residual anger for having put me through all that. It's a sore spot. I think time heals all wounds and the passage of time will heal those wounds.

I don't believe in fighting back with vitriol. I put my head down, do the right thing or as best as I can with the kids and the dividends will pay later. I don't want the kids to go through a fraction of what I had to go through when I grew up. Not if I can influence it in a positive and meaningful way - things I may neglect if I was engaged in alienating mom.

[livednlearned]

Alienation happens when we want our kids to reject our ex, when we don't want them to have their own thoughts or feelings.

Validation happens when we allow our kids to feel how they feel, whether it is the same or different than how we feel.

Sometimes we find ourselves needing to validate our kids for having negative feelings about their BPD parent. More often than not, I found myself helping S13 learn to respond, to deal with negative feelings in a way that helped him build resilience. My ex became almost an afterthought in these conversations, the goal was to give my son a healthy perspective about himself in a conflict, to see himself as whole and worthy, even when he was experiencing the pain of an emotionally disordered parent.

Sometimes there are people on the Family Board who struggle with this -- they are still desperately seeking validation for their own pain, and may use their kids to validate that pain.

You aren't one of them, Mutt. Your instincts are good, you have run the gauntlet and can put your feelings in perspective. That's why your kids talk to you.

[Mutt]

Alienation happens when we want our kids to reject our ex, when we don't want them to have their own thoughts or feelings.

Validation happens when we allow our kids to feel how they feel, whether it is the same or different than how we feel.

Sometimes we find ourselves needing to validate our kids for having negative feelings about their BPD parent. More often than not, I found myself helping S13 learn to respond, to deal with negative feelings in a way that helped him build resilience. My ex became almost an afterthought in these conversations, the goal was to give my son a healthy perspective about himself in a conflict, to see himself as whole and worthy, even when he was experiencing the pain of an emotionally disordered parent.

Sometimes there are people on the Family Board who struggle with this -- they are still desperately seeking validation for their own pain, and may use their kids to validate that pain.

You aren't one of them, Mutt. Your instincts are good, you have run the gauntlet and can put your feelings in perspective. That's why your kids talk to you.

Thank you. I needed to hear this.

[Lmls]

Mutt, I'm new to this site and pretty much blown away by much of what I have read so far, realising that compared to many my situation really isn't so bad.

This thread has amazed me by realising just how well and honestly some people cope with such difficult situations.

From a fairly outside point of view you are doing great work with your daughter, your intuition seems spot on so keep trusting it.

The balance when separated between appreciating and explaining that your child's instincts are right and being reasonable towards your ex is a fine line. For a while I think I got it wrong, my D15 felt by trying to explain her dad's behaviour I was validating it and this caused her confusion and anger towards me as she doubted herself. I am learning every day. Telling her to believe in her instincts and being more general makes sense.

I admire the balance you seem to be achieving and encourage you to do what you are telling your daughter to do- trust yourself, you are doing a great job in very difficult circumstances.

[david]

I view myself as a single parent. Ex is just another person the kids are exposed to. It's just like someone in school/playground/camp/ whatever that the kids get exposed to. They have to learn to deal with it. Guiding them is part of parenting. When they get older (adults) they will be making decisions and choices on their own. Validating their perceptions of the someone in school playground/camp/ whatever is, in a way, no different.

[Mutt]

This thread has amazed me by realising just how well and honestly some people cope with such difficult situations.

I'm happy to hear that it helps you Lmls. I think that you can take control back. First I had to disengage and detach from my wife and become indifferent to her behaviors. It took time after she left and eventually I didn't get triggered to her behaviors. It does take work. She is still controlling and uses emotional blackmail in email. I don't think that she is going to change. She's sick and isn't self-aware and doesn't understand what she does.

I think it's really important to read about BPD and to become indifferent. Respond to what really needs to be responded to and be indifferent to everything else.

For a while I think I got it wrong, my D15 felt by trying to explain her dad's behaviour I was validating it and this caused her confusion and anger towards me as she doubted herself. I am learning every day. Telling her to believe in her instincts and being more general makes sense.

You're here now. There are so many positive tools and strategies that you can pick up from everyone. There's also a lot of material.

I admire the balance you seem to be achieving and encourage you to do what you are telling your daughter to do- trust yourself, you are doing a great job in very difficult circumstances.

Thank you Lmls. She's special to me. I was abandoned as a child and I couldn't do that to her. I'll never forget the day that she was born. I felt like she brought happiness into my life and sort of made up for all of the difficulties I had experienced to that point. I'm trying to do the best that I can for her for her future.

I view myself as a single parent. Ex is just another person the kids are exposed to. It's just like someone in school/playground/camp/ whatever that the kids get exposed to. They have to learn to deal with it. Guiding them is part of parenting. When they get older (adults) they will be making decisions and choices on their own. Validating their perceptions of the someone in school playground/camp/ whatever is, in a way, no different.

Very good point david. Growing up I didn't get guidance from a narcissistic father and SM that was disconnected from the step-kids. It was very difficult later on. I understand the importance of guidance.

[mywifecrazy]

It pains me I can't protect them 100% of the time from mom.

I'm in the same boat Mutt... .It's a helpless feeling at times. We want to protect our kids from being hurt. It's so difficult when that source of pain is our children's own Mother. Keep being the awesome loving Dad that you are... .it's what your kids need! Hang in there brother.

MWC... .

[Mutt]

It was Thanksgiving weekend up here in Canada. This year the were at mom's per court order. I usually get them on Fri but the spent the weekend until Monday night. I picked them up last night and we didn't get much of a chance to talk.

I asked her how her weekend went and she described that she spent the weekend with the my exFIL his gf, exSIL and her boyfriend and the new in-law, the replacements dad. I listened and she said there's a lot if talking and they went to the for maze, the things we used to do. Last year, I had a quiet Thanksgiving with my kids.

I told her I'm happy to hear that you had a good Thanksgiving. She said she thought about me over the weekend and all she wanted to do is spend Thanksgiving with dad and her brothers.

I think she's showing me her loyalty? Am I wrong?

[Turkish]

It was Thanksgiving weekend up here in Canada. This year the were at mom's per court order. I usually get them on Fri but the spent the weekend until Monday night. I picked them up last night and we didn't get much of a chance to talk.

I'm sure they are already looking forward to spending next year with you, but it must have been tough on all of you...

I asked her how her weekend went and she described that she spent the weekend with the my exFIL his gf, exSIL and her boyfriend and the new in-law, the replacements dad. I listened and she said there's a lot if talking and they went to the for maze, the things we used to do. Last year, I had a quiet Thanksgiving with my kids.

I told her I'm happy to hear that you had a good Thanksgiving. She said she thought about me over the weekend and all she wanted to do is spend Thanksgiving with dad and her brothers.

I think she's showing me her loyalty? Am I wrong?

I think you are correct... .from an adult point-of-view. However, how much can an 8 year old process the concept of loyalty?  Can you imagine what she as an 8 year old was feeling, and what she was really saying underneath the words?

[Mutt]

Thanks Turk. I'm looking forward to it as well. To be honest, I struggle during the holidays when I spend half of them with them. It's a reality, hard nonetheless.

Can you imagine what she as an 8 year old was feeling, and what she was really saying underneath the words?

That's a very good point. I didn't think of how she conceptualizes at her age. She didn't seem like she didn't have a good time or there was something abnormal over her weekend. I didn't pry or prod her. It sort of made my heart sink at the end. I felt conflicted. Thinking about dad while spending time on the other side of the family. Simply saying, I'd rather have it with you.

It triggered feelings with the replacements dad there and exFIL. It's not something I can control, but the distortions and that I'm not there anymore. Having been split black. I was very close to exFIL and almost looked to him as a father figure. He had an affair on his wife and went no contact and left for her best friend. My ex had affair and moved in with him. It's the dysfunctional of all of it in front of the kids. I know their too young and they don't understand it. It makes me sick to the stomach the nonchalance of everything. It's the values on exes side or lack thereof. It triggers anger.

The replacement triggered me as well and his dad. Both will be split black and cast off and distorted just like I. It's not so much this year, it's how my ex just threw him and his family on my kids right after the split and moving at the speed of light. The reality of it now is that they've lived together for 7 months. The environment that of dysfunction inside the house and a different portrait on display outside of the home. It's still insane to me.

I know I talk about my D alot. She means the world to me and I think she's telegraphing her loyalty. It's not to say that I don't want her to be close to mom. Mom's doing a good job of pushing D away at her age. It makes me feel sad, this is her mother. It doesn't seem to bother D about mom's actions and lack of attention. She comes to me.

[mywifecrazy]

It triggered feelings with the replacements dad there and exFIL. It's not something I can control, but the distortions and that I'm not there anymore. Having been split black. I was very close to exFIL and almost looked to him as a father figure. He had an affair on his wife and went no contact and left for her best friend. My ex had affair and moved in with him. It's the dysfunctional of all of it in front of the kids. I know their too young and they don't understand it. It makes me sick to the stomach the nonchalance of everything. It's the values on exes side or lack thereof. It triggers anger.

It's hard isn't it Mutt (Our situations very similar)? We see our kids being exposed to all the dysfunction when with their BPD Moms and it makes us worry about what they are being taught. There is nothing we can do about our ex's behavior. But what we CAN do is be the best Dads to our kids. What you are doing as a Dad by providing her with love and stability can and will offset what she is seeing on the other side. Kids desire and thrive on routine and stability. It allows them to relax and be kids. I've read enough of your posts to know that you are doing exactly that. Keep up the good work Dad!

The replacement triggered me as well and his dad. Both will be split black and cast off and distorted just like I. It's not so much this year, it's how my ex just threw him and his family on my kids right after the split and moving at the speed of light.

Yes it's crazy how they just move on and force their new supply on our kids. My uBPDxw has moved on to being with my neighbor and his family. It's only been a year. She started doing this after only 5 months. My older son said its like she just switched families. In his words he said its so f¥cked up. She not only expects my kids to accept her new R/s but expects them to accept new R/s mother and extended family as my uBPDxw has also painted her own mother and sister black... .crazy  Yes... .SPEED OF LIGHT!

The more you and I provide normalcy (stability, routine, love, etc) the more they will see our uBPDxw's behavior for what it is. We don't even have to say anything... .They will know. I heard an interesting saying recently... .Kids aren't resilient, they are absorbent. KEEP LETTING YOURS ABSORB ALL THATS GOOD ABOUT YOU!

MWC... . 

[livednlearned]

Holidays can be hard even when the family is intact   

Happy Thanksgiving, too, btw!   My mom is visiting from Canada and we all forgot. One of my son's American friends reminded him, and S13 reminded us. 

Mutt, do you think your D could sense your sadness about not having the kids with you? Maybe loneliness? If D is a caretaker, could it be that she is picking up on your feelings? Or maybe she just does the math: She is with lots of people, and her dad is not.

I remember S13 would come home from his dad's house, and if N/BPDx made cookies, S13 would walk in the house with a batch and be in a good mood, and then he would quickly shut that mood off, as though he didn't want me to think he was enjoying anything connected to N/BPDx. It was like he flipped a switch.

Trying to raise kids in these environments is so hard.

[Mutt]

Holidays can be hard even when the family is intact  

Happy Thanksgiving, too, btw!   My mom is visiting from Canada and we all forgot. One of my son's American friends reminded him, and S13 reminded us.  

Mutt, do you think your D could sense your sadness about not having the kids with you? Maybe loneliness? If D is a caretaker, could it be that she is picking up on your feelings? Or maybe she just does the math: She is with lots of people, and her dad is not.

I remember S13 would come home from his dad's house, and if N/BPDx made cookies, S13 would walk in the house with a batch and be in a good mood, and then he would quickly shut that mood off, as though he didn't want me to think he was enjoying anything connected to N/BPDx. It was like he flipped a switch.

Trying to raise kids in these environments is so hard.

I think you're absolutely right livednlearned. She's a caretaker and she's smart. She'll be smarter than me someday.

I'm happy that the day to day conflict is over with my ex. Being picked on, criticized and accosted in front of the kids.

I'd also be lying if I said there's not loneliness and sadness underneath the surface. It's strange because I can pick-up on peoples feelings being caretaker myself, I hadn't thought of that. She may be picking up on my feelings.  

[Turkish]

Holidays can be hard even when the family is intact  

Happy Thanksgiving, too, btw!   My mom is visiting from Canada and we all forgot. One of my son's American friends reminded him, and S13 reminded us.  

Mutt, do you think your D could sense your sadness about not having the kids with you? Maybe loneliness? If D is a caretaker, could it be that she is picking up on your feelings? Or maybe she just does the math: She is with lots of people, and her dad is not.

I remember S13 would come home from his dad's house, and if N/BPDx made cookies, S13 would walk in the house with a batch and be in a good mood, and then he would quickly shut that mood off, as though he didn't want me to think he was enjoying anything connected to N/BPDx. It was like he flipped a switch.

Trying to raise kids in these environments is so hard.

I think you're absolutely right livednlearned. She's a caretaker and she's smart. She'll be smarter than me someday. 

This is something I worry about with me. I don't want to engage in passive parentification (I made that term up). I don't gush how much I missed the kids, or over-emote. Even so, I think they pick up on things. Empathy is good in children, but I don't want them to feel guilty when they are away from me. I don't know how it is at their mom's house, but D2 did ask to call me this morning when she awoke.

I think it could be as simple as "I missed you dad, and I love you very much." Perhaps the same with your daughter, Mutt.

Love--->Loyalty.

[Mutt]

Even so, I think they pick up on things. Empathy is good in children, but I don't want them to feel guilty when they are away from me. I don't know how it is at their mom's house, but D2 did ask to call me this morning when she awoke.

I think it could be as simple as "I missed you dad, and I love you very much." Perhaps the same with your daughter, Mutt.

Love--->Loyalty.

That's the thing. She says she thinks about me at mom's and thought about me this weekend. Perhaps she has empathy for me?

[livednlearned]

She says she thinks about me at mom's and thought about me this weekend. Perhaps she has empathy for me?

It's probably healthy empathy if she knows she is not responsible for making you happy.

A friend told me how the side of her family that had big holiday traditions completely stopped talking about her mom after her parents divorced, as though the mom never existed. Even in normal divorces, kids probably feel the absence and the loss of the other parent during holidays, and the silence might make it feel even weirder and harder.

Holidays can also make people acutely aware of how different they are.

[Mutt]

She says she thinks about me at mom's and thought about me this weekend. Perhaps she has empathy for me?

It's probably healthy empathy if she knows she is not responsible for making you happy.

A friend told me how the side of her family that had big holiday traditions completely stopped talking about her mom after her parents divorced, as though the mom never existed. Even in normal divorces, kids probably feel the absence and the loss of the other parent during holidays, and the silence might make it feel even weirder and harder.

Holidays can also make people acutely aware of how different they are.

I'm really glad I posted. There are so many things I had notthought about. Mainly from the perspective of an 8 year and what she's going through.

MIL, FIL, exBPDw all split me black. I don't exist to them.

I'm pretty sure that I'm not talked about anymore. FIL didn't have kind words about SD15's dad when I first met him, and those were stories told to him by ex.

I can't see that I'd be an exception. The absence is amplified over the holidays.