Is this another side of BPD I just hadn't seen?

[Ceruleanblue]

I think my uBPDh is pretty close to a classic case in most ways, but I've never found him to be super "needy" until just now. I gave him that "break" he was always asking for/threatening me with, because I'd reached the end of my rope, and felt I was near a breakdown. I did much better on the "break" than he did apparently. I got better emotionally, regrouped, got feeling much better, and came to see how miserable he had made me. I was sick of killing myself trying, and doing it alone, just for him to sabotage any effort I made. I think he sensed I was really thinking of being done. As in, not taking him back.

Well, I took him back, but with new and much higher boundaries, meant to protect me. He's always been classically rage filled, blaming, uncompromising, and belittling. I consider him to be very, very verbally abusive, and he's even gotten physical a couple times. What has me stumped though is that now that he is back, he is NEEDY. I don't mind, and it's not bothering me, but it's just odd for him. He's accused me of being needy before, so I'm finding this sort of funny.

He called me in to dry him off after his shower tonight? Plus, he's just been way more unsure acting with me. He's always been so dominant, and controlling, that this is sort of throwing me off.

Is this just a new phase I hadn't seen yet? I don't expect it to last of course. In a way too, I'm glad that he is not so sure of me anymore, and that he now seems to realize that I'm no longer just going to take whatever he dishes out.

What is the best way to deal with this new behavior?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

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[Samuel S.]

Thank you for the update about what's going on with your uBPDh. In a strange way, what he is doing is rather logical. I believe you threw him out after the verbal and physical abuse, and many kudos on doing that! Nobody but nobody deserves that negativity at all! Then, you gave him that "break", and he has now returned. You have established your boundaries. You have shown him that you are not going to tolerate his behavior, making him unsure of himself, because you are justifiably denying his behavior. Thus, he becomes needy.

These are only suggestions, but I think it can be steps in the right direction for the both of you. First, seeing he probably feels unsure due to being needy, he may need some reassurance that there is a future between the two of you. Reestablishing common reasons for your relationship with him such as doing things together can be a very important for the both of you. Secondly, seeing that there are issues that resulted in his abusive behavior, you may wish to discuss seeing another counselor, but not the one whom you had seen together previously. In this way, that counselor can have a clean slate as to what is and what is not happening.

No matter what, the very best of luck to you! 

[Ceruleanblue]

Well, the plan is for us to see a marriage therapist. I'd been begging for us to do that for a while, now he acts like it was his idea. Hilarious. He wasn't home two days, and he got angry at me because I also asked him to get a new therapist for himself. He's been stuck with this therapist for well over two years, and he is going nowhere. I don't think this therapist challenges him enough, and it's almost like he's duped this therapist too. In nearly three years, shouldn't he have some improvement? Plus, this therapist knew he'd gotten physical with me on several occasions yet it was ME who suggested anger management to my husband... .she acted like it was no big deal.

So I'm going to find us a marriage therapist, and I'll probably get back in therapy just for me. I know he's going to keep pushing the boundaries. He'd going to eventually make a big bid for total dominance again, I'm sure. I never want to go back to how things were.

I've always been big on reassurance for HIM, while he gives me zero reassurances(another thing he did to feel powerful was keep me unsure of us), and we've spent the bulk of our marriage doing what HE WANTS. He is all about getting his needs met through activities, and I've always known this, and I've been doing that. As soon as he came back, we were doing what HE wanted, but he was still needy acting. I want him to feel happy, and good, but not at my cost anymore. I'm striving for balance, and that may not be enough for him to be happy. I guess we'll find out.

I don't think he is going to be "happy" until he figures out why he is acting this way, and truly works on some of his issues. I think he still has the mindset that this is a "marriage"(ie: MY issue), and that marriage therapy will fix us. We've tried that, he got worse, and he took none of the therapist's advice(his own therapist was acting as our marriage therapist). He seems to treat therapy and just a place to complain and unload, and not truly work his issues. And he's already complaining about the side effects of the drugs his new psychiatrist put him on.

At least I have a plan, and I'm stronger now. I just pray I can maintain it, and keep strong. I want our marriage to work, but other than the tools I've learned here, and in past therapy, I've done what I can do(and will keep trying since I agreed for him to come back), and now it's on him to do his part.

[maxsterling]

I'm a little jealous that you haven't had to deal with the neediness until now   In my case, I've dealt with complete and total dependence for over a year, and it's exhausting.  A little neediness is okay, but her needing me to help her make every basic life decision (such as what to eat) is really uncomfortable. 

I'm not sure I can tell you how to handle it, because I think I have done a poor job myself.  But I can warn you that he may twist the neediness around back on you to claim that you are controlling.  For example, once we were on the road and she was hungry, wouldn't tell me what she wanted to eat and told me to pick someplace.  So, I started to pull into someplace, and she told me that wasn't what she wanted, how I have to control everything in the relationship, and I am insensitive to her wishes.  The same happens with movies, vacations or any time there is a shared activity.  She won't make up her mind, want me to tell her what to do, and if it is the wrong thing claim that I am a control freak who has to have everything my way.    And if you knew me for only an hour, you would know that is the complete opposite of who I am. 

[Samuel S.]

Ceruleanblue and Maxsterling, while there are issues that your BPDs have, at the very least, they are communicating with you, and that is a step in the right direction. To be sure, it is a rocky road, but it is still communicating and battling with their neediness, anger, etc.

My BPDw only focuses on herself in terms of improvement. Every time I bring up the need for us to improve as a couple because she definitely is both verbally abusive and neglectful, she rationalizes that she cannot. She has issues to deal with. She works. She studies. She needs time for herself. You get the picture. She doesn't want to.

Ceruleanblue, the very best of luck in your finding and working with a couple counselor. In fact, I envy you, because the both of you have that goal.

[Vexed]

From my experience this is textbook.  You showed strength and gained a lot of control by going through with the "break" and dealing with it well.  The liberation you felt gave you even more control and shifted the power balance in your favor.  Now that your back together he senses this (BPD are better than dogs at sensing your emotions), he realizes he is on a short leash and in turn it's making him needy.  Once he sucks you back in it will go right back to the way it was.  In my experience if you don't get reeled back in by the neediness or illusions of change the neediness will get worse until he breaks and runs away from you, which will shift the power back to him and cause you to give chase.  Either way they always get the control back.

[Ceruleanblue]

Vexed:

Well, I'm okay with him having "some" control back at some point, because I think all relationships should have a balance of power and control. I'm just not willing to let it shift back to how it was, where he had total control, and was abusive of that control. I'm probably much more okay with a controlling man than most women of my generation, but he pushed it so far that even I couldn't be okay with it.

Sam S. and Maxsterling:

I think you both are going the best you can with what you've been dealt, just like the rest of us on here. We try to love our partners, despite their flaws, and we work on ourselves in the process. So far, I'm finding the neediness so much easier to deal with than the rages. I'm not sure how long this will last, but I'm taking it as it comes.

[waverider]

It is the opposite swing of the pendulum. The push / pull. Be careful of pandering too much to the neediness as it can trigger a backlash of feeling like you are controlling him, and off you go again.

Never the less, it shook him out of a set pattern, so thats a start.

Use consistent boundaris to try and stay on a centered path.

My partner is full on needy so I can concur with Max, it is totally exhausting and doesn't help you with holding respect for them. You can go from partner to carer mentality very easily.

[Ceruleanblue]

Well, you guys were all right. He went from seeming needy, to calling me controlling. Of course, he has always said that about me, it's just back then I knew it was totally hilarious, because EVERYTHING was always his way, and it was like I had no free will.

Since I took him back after our brief separation, I can see why he thinks I'm being "controlling", because he views everything as being controlling anyways, but I'm now having boundaries, and I took him back thinking we were now going to try some things "my" way. Because "his" way clearly has not worked, and I'm not one to keep doing the same dumb thing over and over, and just hoping it works next time. Sorry, but I'm smarter than that.

I asked him to get a new therapist. Of course he blew a gasket. Of course it was a perfect excuse for him to mock, belittle, swear at me, and basically do everything he swore he wouldn't do anymore. I also am not going to back down and accept his "I'm sorry" for this latest incident.

I'm trying to decide if I just give up, and ask him to leave, and get my life figured out, or let him keep trying. The problem is... .he is not really trying. He came back and I fail to see that ANYTHING has changed, other than that he is now insecure about me.

[waverider]

Any boundary enforcement will create a reaction. It takes time for the reality of the boundary to sink in.

He said what he did at the time that he thought would get him what he wanted in that moment ie back in. Now is a different moment, the reasons of that past moment are now past, so he will try whatever it takes to meet his need of this moment. His needs change and so will his methods. That is why you have to be consistent.

[maxsterling]

There will always be bumps on the road to progress. The problem is the "bumps" make it difficult for us to discern if the pwBPD is on the road to progress or not.  The issue is deciding how much patience you have to see change.  You don't have to tell him your time frame (that may actually be counterproductive), but I think it is important to sort this out in your head.  I can tell you from experience that you won't see progress if you look on the scale of days, or weeks.  Only if you look at overall patterns over the scale of months or years will you see if change is happening.  And keep in mind this is a two steps forward and one back process, no matter who he therapist is or whet treatment he is seeking.  Do you have patience for that? 

I've felt on my last straw many times before, wondering if the relationship would last another week.  Many, many times was I there.  So much there I was almost sure I would be single by the end of the month and was planning on what I would do with my alone time.  I don't know how I would have patience for another few days, but almost always there was some little thing that gave me hope.   After seeing her go through several jobs, several reversals on what she wanted to do with her life, many therapists and treatment programs, a dozen different medications, a hospitalization, friends coming and going, she finally did something for herself, and I responded with additional commitment, and SLOWLY, she's been doing better.  There's a long way to do, I still deal with plenty of pure crap, but if I look at where she is and where we are today vs. two months ago, I can see progress.  An example - she was rude to me last night when asking for my help, but half an hour later, she APOLOGIZED for being grouchy.  That would not have happened a few months ago. 

Your H's pushback was expected.  He is going to test your boundaries.  Hopefully you can hold firm to yourself and some kind of workable stability can be achieved. 

[Ceruleanblue]

Maxsterling:

That is all I want is for there to be some progress. I think you are right, and it won't be overnight, but it just seems like since he came back, he went right back to the same routine. It's like he feels he's entitled to belittle me, and put me down. I no longer feel I have to just take his abuse, but only MY feelings on that have changed. HIS feelings seem pretty entrenched in thinking it's okay. He says differently, but isn't it actions that show up what people really think/feel?

If he really didn't think being abusive was okay, wouldn't he try to stop, and wouldn't he be sorry at some point later? I can think of ONE genuine apology I've gotten in our three years together. He says "I'm sorry" like most people would say "shut up". It's a means to his end.

I want to be able to measure his progress, and come out saying there is "some". We've just done this cycle so many times, and the only thing different this time is that we had the separation. Sadly, in some ways, this seemed to make him vie for control even harder. He'd had pretty much full control, but since he's been back, I won't go along anymore... .in fact, I want him to fix that mismatch of "power". I handed his all my power, and let him control me, thinking it was what he needed, and would show him my love. Now I see that, by doing so, I just created a monster.

I guess I have to figure out how patient I am willing to be... .

[waverider]

Maybe you need to seperate again just so he knows you are serious.

[Ceruleanblue]

Waverider:

I've actually been considering another separation, but I hate to keep "recycling". I read that blog on here about that. I've always been the sort that when I'm done, I'm done. I'll give something my all, go all out, turn over every stone while I'm in it, but if it gets so bad I have to leave, I've always stayed gone. My uBPDh though had a habit of coming/going in his last marriage. I told him early on in our relationship that I was not like that, and would not be spending years doing that with him.

I think he knows I'm serious. I did go so far as to pack his bags, and ask him to leave again. He backpeddled and started saying how much better he'd be. The problem is, I think he means it when he says it, but following through is almost impossible for him. He's so impulsive, and his rages and anger just take over. He seems to feel so entitled to treat me this way. He acts so chauvinistic, and superior. I really just sort of wish he'd actually left. I'm sick of the drama, chaos, and arguing he does about everything. I just want peace. Peace is not a part of his life.

He just can't seem to come to terms with that fact that I now have boundaries that I will not let him breach, and that he can't just run his life and MINE too.

[MaybeSo]

the hardest part of boundaries is our part.

What he thinks or accepts or doesn't about your boundary is interesting in that if he understood or accepted or agreed or respected your boundary... .it would make having boundaries super super cool and easy.

But... .that's la la land.

boundaries are hard b/c often people do not like them, do not agree with them, do not accept them.

A boundary is working not by evidence of another persons compliance or cooperation.

A boundary is working when regardless of the response... we still take care of our own boundary.

That is why it is so hard, and a very grow up activity... .to have and maintain boundaries.

Otherwise, it would be easy. It's not.

[Ceruleanblue]

Well, uBPDh is getting a little better at seeing that I will uphold my boundaries. It's a struggle, and I'm sure he will keep testing me, but at least I'm trying to be consistent. That is hard for me because I always want to "give in" just to make him happy. What I've come to realize though, is that my compromising, never made him happy, and only ended up hurting me.

It's funny, but every time I try to do something nice, he spins it into me "being mean". Something no one else I can think of would ever construe as mean. It's just bizarre, but I've come to realize his thinking is actually "off", and only he can change that "if" he wants to.

Maintaining boundaries will probably be a lifelong struggle for me because  I'm a pleaser. Plus, I've always thought it takes a stronger person to compromise gracefully, then to enforce your will on someone else. Which is why I've done way too much "compromising". I guess there is a middle ground, and I'm trying to find that.

[waverider]

Maintaining boundaries will probably be a lifelong struggle for me because  I'm a pleaser. Plus, I've always thought it takes a stronger person to compromise gracefully, then to enforce your will on someone else. Which is why I've done way too much "compromising". I guess there is a middle ground, and I'm trying to find that.

Compromise is a two way street, unfortunately this is the problem. compromise and boundaries can still coexist. You take all factors into consideration before setting the boundary.

You dont set boundaries around what you would like to happen. There are stages. 1 what you would like (ambit claim if you like), 2 the compromise arrangement on an issue, 3 your fall back boundary

eg:

1 (ambit)You feel like seeing a movie, and there is one on you would like would like to go see.

2 (compromise)You compromise and go see something he wants, because you just wanted to go out

3. (boundary)You will not go see a horror movie no matter how much pressure is applied.

The boundary here is not enforcing your will. Enforcing your will would be insisting you go to see what you wanted regardless of what he wants.

[Ceruleanblue]

Yeah, I'm still basically only setting boundaries about the huge issues like being verbally abused, and serious things like that. No way is uBPDh in a good enough place yet for me to tackle the little stuff. Maybe at some point I'll be able to have boundaries over smaller issues, but at this point I'm mostly letting him have his way, to avoid trouble. If it was something that really mattered, I'd have to set the boundary, but I'm mostly saving it for the big issues right now.

There is enough drama, mood swings, and unpredictability with him, that I just can't sweat all the small stuff. His anger is somewhat better, although he did have an episode today. I think the biggest factor, other than his medication, is just that he fears me leaving, and that he knows I'm fed up with it. I guess I deal with his anger differently in a way. I guess in some sense, I've set a strong boundary in regards to his anger. Plus, my new therapist has really good advice in helping ME cope with all this.