Checking back in to the relationship

[vortex of confusion]

I feel like I have checked out of the relationship. Once I realized that all of my efforts were futile, I think I emotionally checked out. Being emotionally checked out of the relationship seems to be a real buffer to all of the uncertainty. I love my husband but I am not in love with him. Frankly, there are times that he disgusts me. I have compromised so many of my own values to try to please him and make him happy. At one point in time, I would have been really judgmental towards somebody that has done the things that I have done. I touched upon some of them in my intro thread. I want to stay in my marriage because I see it as what is best for my kids. And, to be perfectly honest, I see staying as the safest option for now. I don't think I could handle being a single parent with four daughters. When he is having good days, he can be very helpful. He can do the grocery shopping and other helpful things but I can't always rely on him. So, it is a mixed bag and I try to focus on the good parts.

The problem for me is that in the last year and a half, I have lost my desire for him. I love him as a person and as the father of my children but I am not in love with him at all. Sometimes, I have a difficult time thinking of him as anything more than a co-parent. All of our time together is spent talking about our relationship. All of our time together focuses on him and his healing and recovery from his sexual addiction. I feel like a robot at times. He wants things to be black and white. We are either going to be together forever or we aren't. Yes, I want to stay with him but I can't say that I will still feel the same way when the kids are older. It is like he wants me to profess my undying love for him. Both of us admit that the feelings between us just are there any more. He has never really been plugged into the relationship. I feel like he still doesn't know me after being together for 17 years. I don't want to slip into patterns that are even more unhealthy than things are now.

I am committed to the relationship for now but I feel so checked out. What are some things that I can do to help me check back in to the relationship? Is is possible to fall back in love with him?

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[formflier]

I feel like I have checked out of the relationship. Once I realized that all of my efforts were futile, I think I emotionally checked out. Being emotionally checked out of the relationship seems to be a real buffer to all of the uncertainty. I love my husband but I am not in love with him. Frankly, there are times that he disgusts me. I have compromised so many of my own values to try to please him and make him happy. At one point in time, I would have been really judgmental towards somebody that has done the things that I have done. I touched upon some of them in my intro thread. I want to stay in my marriage because I see it as what is best for my kids. And, to be perfectly honest, I see staying as the safest option for now. I don't think I could handle being a single parent with four daughters. When he is having good days, he can be very helpful. He can do the grocery shopping and other helpful things but I can't always rely on him. So, it is a mixed bag and I try to focus on the good parts.

The problem for me is that in the last year and a half, I have lost my desire for him. I love him as a person and as the father of my children but I am not in love with him at all. Sometimes, I have a difficult time thinking of him as anything more than a co-parent. All of our time together is spent talking about our relationship. All of our time together focuses on him and his healing and recovery from his sexual addiction. I feel like a robot at times. He wants things to be black and white. We are either going to be together forever or we aren't. Yes, I want to stay with him but I can't say that I will still feel the same way when the kids are older. It is like he wants me to profess my undying love for him. Both of us admit that the feelings between us just are there any more. He has never really been plugged into the relationship. I feel like he still doesn't know me after being together for 17 years. I don't want to slip into patterns that are even more unhealthy than things are now.

I am committed to the relationship for now but I feel so checked out. What are some things that I can do to help me check back in to the relationship? Is is possible to fall back in love with him?

Do you understand your "love language"... .do you understand his?

www.amazon.com/The-Love-Languages-Secret-Lasts/dp/0802473156/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1408663891&sr=8-1&keywords=love+languages

This is the first time I've passed on this advice on this site... .but I think it could be appropriate in this situation.

I would recommend reading it yourself first.

Like many things in dealing with pwBPD it's important for the nons to amass information first.  And then try to make wise decisions

Final thought:  I think that "falling back in love" is a big step.  Can you re-tune your thinking to what can I do to take a step in the direction of falling back in love.  After thinking it through... .and deciding on some things that can be a step in the right direction... .take that step.  Then take another... .

Thoughts?

[vortex of confusion]

Do you understand your "love language"... .do you understand his?

We both actually took the love language test. It is free online. I know what his love languages are. He likes constant attention. I need to verbally praise him. A LOT. I need to surprise him with little things. And he needs lots of touch. At night, I used to have to hold him and rub his back to help him sleep. I moved out of his room and slept with the kids for a year or so because I couldn't tend to his needs and the kids needs.

Several years ago, I had gone to a forum about improving the relationship and it suggested looking for all of the good things. I did that. I took it so far as to publicly brag about him on Facebook every chance I got. That seemed to backfire because then it made him look like a saint so that when I tried to talk to anybody, I would get, "But he seems so wonderful and great. You are so lucky to have him." Nobody knew that I doing those things to help build him up and try to prove to him how much I love him.

My love languages tend to focus on quality time and acts of service. Him remembering to empty the dishwasher without me asking would be something that I would really appreciate.

The problem that I have with his love language is that a lot of times he doesn't even give me time to notice anything and starts telling me what he has done so that I can praise him. When I am at work, we email back and forth and he gives me a report of every little thing that he does. The more praise and affirmation I give him, the more he wants. It is exhausting because he requires more praise and touch and affirmation than the kids do.

I am with my kids all day every day and manage to cook and clean and pay bills. Plus, I have another job working from home. When he is with the kids for the few hours I work two nights a week, he tells me that he can't get anything done when it is just him and the kids. But, if he does manage to get something done, I had better notice it (if he hasn't reported it to me via phone or email) and I had better start praising him and thanking him for it. There have been times that he has talked about his successes so much that I have had to ask him to stop.

The one night he put the kids to bed he talked about it incessantly for a day or two. I thanked him and told that I thought it was awesome because it showed that he was making progress with the kids. I got mad and started listing out all of the things that I do for him and this family. I was angry because he doesn't thank me or appreciate much of anything I do. Instead, he will become afraid and anxious. It is a real push/pull sort of thing. He told me that he wanted me to change the cat boxes occasionally. That has always been his job. When I went to do it, he got mad and got confrontational. I have to be very careful because I never know whether or not talking about stuff is going to make things better or worse. We can have a great talk one day and then the next he has forgotten everything that was said and nothing changes.

I don't expect him to read my mind so I have tried to ask him for specific things that I think are very doable and very reasonable. I don't care for gifts. I would simply like for him to be available on occasion. For example, we have a difficult time getting a babysitter so I planned a little date for us at home after the kids went to bed. I had him stop and get us take out and was hoping to hang out in our room and watch some TV and snuggle. He ate and went to sleep. It is difficult when we have discussed these things and taken the tests together and he forgets the next day. On one hand, he says, "I don't know what to do," but when I give him very specific things to do, that are small, he forgets. And, all of the time we spend together these days seems to focus on talking about us and the relationship. Actually, it is more about him and what he wants. If I try to say anything, he finds a way to expand it or correct me or twist it. If I try to question him or assert my own mind, he will explain himself even more and will go on until I agree with him.

I have the love languages book for children and have read it to try to make sure that I am attending to the needs of him as well as our children.

Like many things in dealing with pwBPD it's important for the nons to amass information first.  And then try to make wise decisions

I have been searching for information for years trying to make sense of what is going on. For years, I simply found ways to excuse his behavior. For years, I thought that maybe I could find better ways of loving him. If I could just figure out how to speak his language, I could make things better.

I think it was in 2003 that he had to resign from a job due to inappropriate behavior at work. From that point on, I have done nothing but research and amass information. Heck, I came from a very dysfunctional family so reading about mental health and mental health problems is something that I have been doing for years. I had heard about narcissism but had never really read much about BPD. I have books on my shelf about schizophrenia and bipolar and a host of other things.

Final thought:  I think that "falling back in love" is a big step.  Can you re-tune your thinking to what can I do to take a step in the direction of falling back in love.  After thinking it through... .and deciding on some things that can be a step in the right direction... .take that step.  Then take another... .

Thoughts?

Yes, it is a very big step. I guess I was wondering if other people have been able to fall back in love with a BPD partner. Until I found this forum, I felt a bit hopeless because all of the literature that I had read seemed to be missing something. All of the literature seemed to approach things as though I was dealing with a rational person that would have rational responses. For example, we were talking about staying together for the kids and I mentioned that I wasn't feeling certain things. He tells me that he is willing to remain celebate if he has to so that we can stay together for the kids. I know that is a lie. Also, me not being into something right now does not mean that I am going to feel that way tomorrow or the next day. When he starts pulling out those extreme scenarios, it makes me very uncomfortable because he has guilted me into sex in the past.

I am not even sure if I WANT to fall back in love with him. Staying in the relationship for the kids is very different than staying in the relationship because I have deluded myself into thinking that I am going to fall back in love with him some day. And, I worry that falling back in love with him will lead me to becoming even more codependent and feeling guilty for having such negative thoughts about him. I am still very much caught up in the FOG. I am committed to staying for the kids but really want to know how best to improve myself. If falling back in love with him is going to make me too vulnerable, then maybe I need to guard myself. Yeah, I am a real vortex of confusion right now. 

[Rapt Reader]

I am committed to the relationship for now but I feel so checked out. What are some things that I can do to help me check back in to the relationship? Is is possible to fall back in love with him?

One thing I did after my husband and I renewed our marriage vows after he'd had a 2.5 year affair and then finally came to his senses and gave her up, was read the book Intimate Partners: Patterns in Love and Marriage by Maggie Scarf.

From Publishers Weekly:

In this probing, widely researched and literate study on the nature of intimacy, Scarf (Unfinished Business, etc.) explores the reasons for the selection of mates and for the success or failure of contemporary marriages. She stresses the importance of family and other past influences, which she traces by means of a genogram, a kind of "emotional family tree." She identifies phases of marriage from idealization and disenchantment through those dominated by career-building and child-rearing to the rediscovery of each other in mature years. These phases require adaptive change on the part of both partners, however most pairs, Scarf maintains, are not aware of the nature of the power struggle for emotional dominance in the fields of sex, career, finances, child-rearing, etc., and the intimacy/autonomy conflict over which many relationships founder. The author's clear-headed, constructive advice about marital problems, including guidance on sexual adjustments, should be of help to couples at all stages.

From Library Journal:

Though not a trained therapist, Scarf is remarkably skilled at inducing couples to reveal in fascinating detail their problems with intimacy. As she talked wtih articulate couples undergoing training in intimacy, she found patterns of unconscious collusion referring back to problems in each partner's earlier relationships. To counteract such patterns, she advises enlarging the familial context to unacknowledged issues and legacies and offers highly relevant tasks honoring self-differentiation while encouraging collaboration. Her book as a whole is an excellent introduction to the important concept of interpersonal projective identification (the use of another as a container for one's dissociated or disavowed contents). Highly recommended for popular collections.


Though I still loved him, and wanted the marriage to continue, I didn't feel in love with him, and this book showed me just why we'd gotten together, and why we were a couple in the first place. My husband's BPD traits/behaviors hit their zenith during that affair, and did get a bit easier to deal with afterwards. But, it wasn't until I came to this site and learned the tools & techniques taught here that I truly got a handle on how to deal with those things in a better way. However, that book did bring me back to the place in my heart where I was in love with him again... .

[formflier]

 

Vortex,

Thanks for the detailed response... .it helps us... help you.

I'll try to come back later and write more... .here are some quick thoughts... .challenges.

What would it look like if you stayed with him because you made the decision to stay... .not because of anything else... but because you are in control of your life... .and you have made a decisions.

One of my goals for you at this site... .is to educate you on what you do and don't control.  I want to help focus you on the hope of what you do control... .and accept those that you don't. 

What do you think will happen... .how will you feel... .if you  keep trying to control or affect something that... .in reality... .you don't control?

Another comment about getting a "rational" response.  Please think long and hard about this.  He is giving a response that is rational... .for him. 

Maybe another way of saying it... .there is an order to the disorder.

Once you accept that... .and learn the patterns... things become more predictable.  That hands power back to you...

Hang in there... .I'll be back later with more.

[vortex of confusion]

What would it look like if you stayed with him because you made the decision to stay... .not because of anything else... but because you are in control of your life... .and you have made a decisions.

Wow, my first thought to this question was "I don't know." If things continue as they are and I don't find better ways of dealing with my own emotions and my own problems, things will likely continue to be a roller coaster where I give too much in an effort to make things better. I was talking to my friend about this the other day. I told her that I was working on finding peace within myself and was going to try to do whatever it took to keep things together. She has known me for a while and pointed out that I will do really good for a while and will placate my husband and be the perfect wife, etc. but that after a certain point I get resentful and blow up. After reading these boards, I see that my motivations for my behavior have been to control my husband (If I do x, he should do y.) I had never seen that or admitted that to myself before. If I can find better tools and better ways of coping that focus on me rather than on my husband, I think things will get a lot better. If I can get to the place where I can fully accept that I am making a conscious choice to stay, then it will be much better. Right now, I have a list of reasons that are very logical and are based on solid reasons to stay. However, my intellectual side does not match up with where my heart is. In my heart, I feel kind of like I have to stay. That is really difficult for me to admit because of the conflicting feelings that I have.

One of my goals for you at this site... .is to educate you on what you do and don't control.  I want to help focus you on the hope of what you do control... .and accept those that you don't. 

This will be very helpful. All too often I take on too much responsibility for things that are completely out of my control. When something out of my control happens, I find that I apologize for it and beat myself up because I was unable to adequately anticipate things and fix them.

What do you think will happen... .how will you feel... .if you  keep trying to control or affect something that... .in reality... .you don't control?

I will continue to be exhausted and frustrated. I will feel like a failure because I wasn't able to do things right. When I am unable to behave in ways that lead to the outcomes that I want, I feel bad and wonder what I could have done differently. One example that happened in the last year was that I went to the store to get some groceries. While I was out, my husband let the kids play in the backyard. The dog got out and went and bothered the neighbors. My husband and the neighbors exchanged words and animal control showed up a bit later. I had no way of anticipating any of this yet I felt horrible because I felt like it was somehow my fault. Maybe I shouldn't have gone to the store. I went and apologized to the neighbor for my husband's behavior. The neighbor's response was, "You don't have to apologize for him. It isn't your fault." When I was completely isolated, there was nobody to tell me, "It's not your fault" so I internalized that everything is my fault.

Another comment about getting a "rational" response.  Please think long and hard about this.  He is giving a response that is rational... .for him. 

This is a very new piece of information for me. In reading the different information on these forums, it helped me to realize this. It is going to take some time for me to wrap my mind around but it does answer a lot of questions for me. So many times over the years, I have thought to myself, "How does that even make sense?" I have even asked my husband that question a lot over the years. There have been quite a few times that I have called him out about being manipulative. He would tell me that he had no idea what I was talking about. He has told me repeatedly, "I didn't do it on purpose." That created a lot of dissonance for me because I felt like it was obvious manipulation or abuse. I had conflicting feelings because he is a good person. I have always seen him as a good person but have struggled with how somebody that has so many great things about them could be so clueless about some things. Feeling=fact was also a big light bulb for me.

Once you accept that... .and learn the patterns... things become more predictable.  That hands power back to you...

I have been saying that in parenting forums for years.  I have told parents to journal and look for behavior patterns and plan accordingly. Make sure a kid isn't hungry, angry, lonely or tired. My problem has been trying to figure out the patterns. The sex addiction literature and other relationship literature left me feeling even more frustrated because things didn't fit or make sense. It advocates dealing with a spouse like a partner rather than a child. I have always been hesitant to treat my husband like I treat my children because I have always been afraid of turning into his mother. I want to be his partner and his wife not his mother!

Thank you, thank you, thank you!

[vortex of confusion]

Not sure if I should post this question here, in my intro thread or somewhere else.

In reading through other people's stories and experiences, I keep seeing people recommend not telling a spouse about this site. I see people recommend not letting a spouse see you reading literature about BPD or other types of things that might relate to him/her.

My experience is that my spouse doesn't say a word about stuff like that. Heck, I have written all sorts of things in my blog and in other places trying to figure stuff out. His responses seem completely inappropriate or the opposite of what one would think they should be. He doesn't mind me emailing a guy and having intimate conversations/relations with another guy but he gets jealous and weird about me talking to family members and friends. I think it might have to do with the objectification. If I am talking to another guy in an inappropriate manner, it confirms the fact that I am an object. It makes him feel better because that means that I am just like him.

I also wonder if there is some dissociation going on. There seems to be a disconnect. I am not sure how to describe it but there are times when he reads something that is about him he will simply act as though it is no big deal like it is about somebody else entirely. I have tested this several times over the years and have figured out that it doesn't matter what I say or do as long as I am home taking care of the kids and doing all of the things that I am supposed to be doing. He seems to have a completely flat affect at times and it confuses me how he will respond so strongly to small silly things like the kids and laughing over an inside joke but not responding at all to something that would normally upset other people.

[formflier]

 

I commend you for learning the quote function early on in your posting career here.  I took me a while to get it down!   

Very good responses... I'll try to come back and make more comments later.

I think we have you pointed in the direction of more education that will help you out... .

How do you feel about the future now?

[formflier]

Not sure if I should post this question here, in my intro thread or somewhere else.

In reading through other people's stories and experiences, I keep seeing people recommend not telling a spouse about this site. I see people recommend not letting a spouse see you reading literature about BPD or other types of things that might relate to him/her.

My experience is that my spouse doesn't say a word about stuff like that. Heck, I have written all sorts of things in my blog and in other places trying to figure stuff out. His responses seem completely inappropriate or the opposite of what one would think they should be. He doesn't mind me emailing a guy and having intimate conversations/relations with another guy but he gets jealous and weird about me talking to family members and friends. I think it might have to do with the objectification. If I am talking to another guy in an inappropriate manner, it confirms the fact that I am an object. It makes him feel better because that means that I am just like him.

I also wonder if there is some dissociation going on. There seems to be a disconnect. I am not sure how to describe it but there are times when he reads something that is about him he will simply act as though it is no big deal like it is about somebody else entirely. I have tested this several times over the years and have figured out that it doesn't matter what I say or do as long as I am home taking care of the kids and doing all of the things that I am supposed to be doing. He seems to have a completely flat affect at times and it confuses me how he will respond so strongly to small silly things like the kids and laughing over an inside joke but not responding at all to something that would normally upset other people.

Every relationship (r/s) is different... .but I generally advise keeping this site private.

[vortex of confusion]

How do you feel about the future now?

In some ways, I feel more uncertain. I know I can do this IF I am able to understand things better and accept them a little more. I have lots and lots of questions.

In the intro thread, somebody mentioned that I am normalizing things. I know that but I am not sure how to NOT normalize things. There is a lot of fear on my part. I am afraid that I won't be able to stick with my resolve to stay if I admit that things are not normal. There are times when I feel like I am starting to break to break through the fog but then I get scared and start rationalizing and normalizing things.

[formflier]

  but that after a certain point I get resentful and blow up.

I commend you on the self awareness... .resentment and it's close cousin bitterness are things that you can own and control.  I suggest a combination of boundaries (to protect you from things that will "make" you resentful), self care so that you feel better about yourself, and acceptance of what can't be changed right now.  Notice I said "right now".

You didn't get into this state overnight... .and you won't get out overnight.  Slowly but surely progress can be made... .

  conscious choice to stay, 

Choices are powerful... .they hand control back to you.  Don't rush to make them... get educated so you can make wise choices.

  Feeling=fact was also a big light bulb for me.

Close... .  I don't like to describe it as feeling equals fact... I prefer to explain it as what happens when feeling and facts "run into" each other.  Most "nons" are able to let facts guide their feelings.  Lots of pwBPD ignore the facts and go with feelings... ."well... .i feel this way so xyz must be true... ."

  I have always been hesitant to treat my husband like I treat my children because I have always been afraid of turning into his mother. I want to be his partner and his wife not his mother!

Good to know what you want... .I'm not saying to suppress that.  But you also need to take a hard look at what your husband "needs".  If that is different than what you want... .then you need to have a conversation with yourself.

Thoughts?

[vortex of confusion]

Good to know what you want... .I'm not saying to suppress that.  But you also need to take a hard look at what your husband "needs".  If that is different than what you want... .then you need to have a conversation with yourself.

Thoughts?

Hmmmm. . .

This is where I feel like I might be experiencing a little bit of black and white thinking. :-) When I look too hard at what he needs, I find myself getting sucked in and I end up putting him first. I suspect that might be easier as I figure out how to establish boundaries.

I guess I am trying to figure out how to look at his needs and consider his needs without sacrificing my own. To me, it feels like an either/or proposition because of the dynamic that has been established around here. If I need to get away for a bit of self care, I come home to complete craziness and feel like I am being punished for having the nerve to go out.

Things have actually improved quite a bit because I can take a shower and go to the grocery store without having it turn into a fight. Most of the time, the problem is with the kids, not him. I feel like him being a more plugged in father to the kids would make it easier on me. Instead of acting like a dad, he acts more like a child. He acts more like a child in that he will get into spats with the kids and then ask me to fix it. It is really like he is a sibling to them. I have had them come to me, "Mom, dad did <fill in the blank>" or he will come to me and say, "Soandso did that." And the expectation is that I will be the referee between him and the kids. I have to find ways to validate both parties and help them work through whatever dispute they have. I have tried to step out of the situations and let him handle things but that seems to escalate things and make things worse.

Last night, I was able to go out with my brother and his fiance without any problems. I came home to a peaceful house with happy kids. Hearing one of the kids say, "Mom, I had fun while you were gone" is something that I wouldn't have ever dreamed of hearing not too long ago.

For a while, I couldn't even rely on him to watch the kids and play with them or hang out with them so I could do things as simple as showering. I know a lot of moms with young kids complain about this but it wasn't for lack of trying on the dad's part. His relationship with the kids was so bad that they didn't even want to be home with him. If I tried to go anywhere, one of the kids would have a bit of a panic attack and would cry and scream and rage. She has since stopped that and will simply ask when I am going to be home. I directly attribute her behavior to the fact that she needs to feel like she can rely on and trust her caregivers. She doesn't feel like she can rely on her dad so she gets scared and anxious. He has never done anything to hurt the kids and we have always had a no spanking policy because of things that happened to us as kids. The problem is that he has a tendency to try to override other people's realities. For example, he was getting our daughter a drink. He picked up a dirty cup, filled it up, and took it took it to our daughter. She was grossed out because there was weird stuff floating in her drink. She said something to him and he said something along the lines of ":)rink it, I don't see anything." She came to me and I could clearly see the grossness. I wasn't trying to undermine him but I also was not going to sit there and tell her that she was not seeing something when clearly she was. I got her a new glass even though he sat there and tried to argue with us. I told him, "It's okay. You didn't see it. You have bifocals that sometimes throw things off. Or it could have been the glare from your glasses." That helped validate him without invalidating our daughter. It can be exhausting.

That becomes a problem because not only am I trying to keep from invalidating him but I am also trying to make sure that our 4 daughters are not harmed too much. Sometimes, his needs collide with my needs and the kids needs. The kids want and need to spend time with their dad. He needs to read, play computer games, and be able to do what he wants. My working outside of the house has helped that a bit. He is a very capable person but seems to revert to acting like a childish butt when I am around. The kids have told me that dad is fine when I am not around and I am fine when he is not around. When we are together, things can get kind of tense at times because I am trying to do stuff around the house and need help but he is oblivious to it or acts like a child when asked to do things that are part of being a parent.

And here is something else that I have tried to wrap my mind around. We have four kids together. I think I had so many kids with him because he used to be so great when I was pregnant and nursing. It was really every new mothers dream. Aside from a few things, he would dote on me. He wouldn't really help with the kids but he would cook for me and bring me stuff. It was great. As the kids got older and I stopped needing all of that and tried to regain my independence, things became more and more difficult. When I had a bunch of teeth pulled last year and didn't do anything but lay on the couch and take pain meds, he was great. When I got better and didn't need him any more, things got tense again. It is almost like he wants/needs me to be completely reliant on him. I feel like he wants us to be the center of each other's worlds.

We are so enmeshed that I have a difficult time distinguishing his needs from my needs. And then there is the kids' needs.

I have had lots of conversations with myself. :-) Hopefully, my writing isn't too long or convoluted. I have muddled through for lots of years and have been reading and thinking about this stuff but never really found my voice because when I would try to talk to people I would get stuff like, "Oh, he is just being a man." or "Suck it up." Or, people would tell me how lucky I am to have him because they don't see the push/pull. It wasn't until I found a book on emotional abuse that I figured out what was going on. The little things he does are so subtle and so slight that it can only be seen and felt when living with it day in and day out.

So, all of that is to say that when I read things like "You really need to consider his needs" I have to stop myself from thinking, "Great, somebody else is telling me that I am crazy and that I need to continue to focus on his needs." I know that is not what is being said but that is the feeling that rises up in the pit of my stomach. I suspect that some of that will ease up as I get more things out. There are lots of years of stuffed emotions and frustrations.

[formflier]

So, all of that is to say that when I read things like "You really need to consider his needs" I have to stop myself from thinking, "Great, somebody else is telling me that I am crazy and that I need to continue to focus on his needs." I know that is not what is being said but that is the feeling that rises up in the pit of my stomach. I suspect that some of that will ease up as I get more things out. There are lots of years of stuffed emotions and frustrations.

Ahh... I see.  Here is where the long term conversations that can be had on this board are helpful... .and I should have thought ahead some... .and expanded on the point I was making.

So... .yes I'm still sticking with consider his needs.  But don't fill all of them.  It's not good for anyone... .non or pwBPD to have all needs completely met by someone else.  Again... .powerful point here... .even if you could meet all of his needs... .I would recommend against that.

The point is to look at what he needs... .and make sure you are making an obvious effort to fill some of them.  That will hopefully inspire him to fill some of yours.  And from your story... .it sounds like he can... .

This is an idea to think about.  Many people with BPD traits fear abandonment.  When you were nursing and dependent on him... .his abandonment fears were down.  When it was obvious that you were getting over that... .and possibly even obvious that you were making strides to be independent... .that may have triggered some fears in him.  NOT your fault... .but just part of the r/s dynamic.

Again... think about that.  Let me know if this seems plausible.  If so... .what could you do to be more dependent on him?

Back to meeting his needs.  My big point is to be obvious about meeting some of his needs... and then let him do self care for the rest. 

Thoughts?

[vortex of confusion]

So... .yes I'm still sticking with consider his needs.  But don't fill all of them.  It's not good for anyone... .non or pwBPD to have all needs completely met by someone else.  Again... .powerful point here... .even if you could meet all of his needs... .I would recommend against that.

That makes a lot of sense. As I read through the different materials, I realize that when somebody says consider their needs or think about them, I hear "meet their needs". I think the reason that I do this is because my default is set to "see the need, meet it if possible". My default is to anticipate the need and fill it as soon as possible. Some people have joked that I am like Radar from MASH. That goes back to childhood. I think that was a coping mechanism that I developed because I knew it would appease people. My biggest fear as a child was upsetting people because I lived in a family where people would get extremely angry and extremely scary.

The point is to look at what he needs... .and make sure you are making an obvious effort to fill some of them.  That will hopefully inspire him to fill some of yours.  And from your story... .it sounds like he can... .

Yes, he has the ability but I don't inspire him to do anything. I know that I just started posting here so nobody really has any idea of the lengths that I have gone to to fill some of his needs over the years. I have studied Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs in the past regarding children and education so I know how important it is for people to be able to have their needs met in one way or another. In revisiting Maslow's Hierarchy in light of the information here, I can see that I had been working under the assumption that most of the basic needs were met. If a basic need, such as safety, is not being met, then it makes perfect sense that one would be out of kilter and behave badly. It is basic human nature to try to get basic needs met first and foremost. I am not sure if I am off base or not, but it seems to me that a person with BPD would be out of whack because they do not have a sense of safety and security. I don't think I ever would have considered that point of view without the readings here. From my perspective, my husband has absolutely no reason to be stuck in the bottom parts of Maslow's Hierarchy. He has a wife that spoils him rotten. He has great kids. He has a great job. Really, he has a lot to be thankful for and he has a lot more that so many others have.

At one point, I was frustrated because I felt like I wasn't doing enough for him. I told somebody else all of the things that I do for my husband and they thought I was crazy. LOL

This is an idea to think about.  Many people with BPD traits fear abandonment.  When you were nursing and dependent on him... .his abandonment fears were down.  When it was obvious that you were getting over that... .and possibly even obvious that you were making strides to be independent... .that may have triggered some fears in him.  NOT your fault... .but just part of the r/s dynamic.

He likes it when I am under his thumb so to speak. It is like I am an object that he wants close and nearby at all times. He may not want to talk to me or interact with me but he wants to know that I am not going anywhere. Heck, I used to do stuff during the day while he was at work but stopped because I didn't want to run the risk of not being home when he got home. When he got a job in another state, he wouldn't let the kids and I stay behind. Instead, we had to go live with his mother for 4 or 5 months. It was pure hell on me and the kids but he put up such a fuss and dug his heels in over the idea that the kids and I could stay in our house while he tried to set things up there.

Again... think about that.  Let me know if this seems plausible.  If so... .what could you do to be more dependent on him?

I don't want to be more dependent on him. I want to feel capable. I want to feel like I am with him because I love him and want to be with him rather than because I depend on him and can't live without him. When I get off work in the evenings, I will call him and ask him to cook me specific things. He absolute loves it when I ask hi to make me food. He gets so tickled at having food ready for me when I come in from work in the evenings. I don't mind stuff like that. Heck, that is something that so many women would love to have and it is one of the things that complicates things. "Oh, your husband does that for you? Why would you ever complain about him or say anything bad about him ever?"

Back to meeting his needs.  My big point is to be obvious about meeting some of his needs... and then let him do self care for the rest. 

I think I understand what you are saying. My mind has been so clouded that I am trying to break out of the fog.  I need to find the balance between meeting all of his needs versus meeting some of his needs. I already meet a ton of his needs. I guess I need to figure out which ones to meet and which ones to leave to him.

It is weird to me because, as I type things out, I am still wondering if I am making too big of a deal out of some things. I still feel crazy. :-)

[formflier]

It is weird to me because, as I type things out, I am still wondering if I am making too big of a deal out of some things. I still feel crazy. :-)

I'll give you the answer... .yes you are!  Making too big a deal of some things... .  Acceptance is in order.

On other things... .you need to make a bigger deal... .or enforce a boundary.

Right now I would suggest some of the crazy feelings you have... .is that you are having a hard time sorting out the difference.

That is where this site will help.  The lessons and guidance on the boards will help you sort out what things are "changeable" in your r/s. 

The best things are what you want... .and what you do... .because those are 100% changeable.  Slam dunk!   No chance of missing... .  Because your husband gets no input on that... .it's all you!

Thoughts?

[vortex of confusion]

Thoughts?

No real thoughts. I feel myself shutting down because trying to sort it all out feels so unbelievably overwhelming.

[formflier]

Thoughts?

No real thoughts. I feel myself shutting down because trying to sort it all out feels so unbelievably overwhelming.

I've been there as well.  Hang in there.

I would suggest focusing on 1 thing you want to learn about and see if you can improve things there.  That should be a bit more manageable.  Sometimes it feels like drinking from a firehose... .there is so much good information about dealing with pwBPD... .that it can be hard to take it all in at once.

[DreamFlyer99]

Vortex,

I have so been where you are! Do you have a therapist? Mine really helps me focus in on particular things I need to move forward.

You said,

He likes it when I am under his thumb so to speak. It is like I am an object that he wants close and nearby at all times. He may not want to talk to me or interact with me but he wants to know that I am not going anywhere.

I was just reading today about Object Constancy and the pwBPD. Since they are stuck at a much younger age emotionally I think they must really feel like it's just comforting for us to be in the room, even if we aren't interacting. Our kids are all grown, the youngest is 26 and still at home, and my husband still wanted me to just be his "blankie" sort of, yunno?

Part of how we learn to move forward in our healing is to learn what is good and healthy in a partnership relationship, then we know what to compare our own situation against. I had totally lost sight of what a married r/s should be and was pretty much just taking care of one more child--tho this one brought home the paycheck.

When we start looking at things like

Article 15: The Characteristics of Healthy Relationships our brains can begin focusing again and looking at how we've gotten all out of whack. And when our husbands do enough really lovely things we can easily choose to overlook the stuff that makes us feel crazy, and we lose sight of what a truly healthy r/s should be like, where we both love the other just for being alive, and we're both supporting the other emotionally.

There is so much of your story that I could have written myself... .I understand the word "dependent" being triggering for you, it hits me the same way. I know what Formflier means, yet I understand your throwing up your hand in front of it and saying "WHOA!"

Formflier has been asking you some thought provoking questions, he really has a gift for that! Reading this thread I felt like I was at my therapist's!

You are definitely on the path toward improving your life and your choices, you think deeply, and as Formflier has pointed out you're quite self-aware. I think this is the point where you are beginning to come out of the FOG of fear, obligation and guilt, and it's a great place to be. It only gets better. 

df

[vortex of confusion]

Vortex,

I have so been where you are! Do you have a therapist? Mine really helps me focus in on particular things I need to move forward.

Nah, I don't have a therapist. I can give you a list of reasons why not. LOL. Time. Money. Kids. Guilt. Fear. But, I did go to individual therapy when I was in college. I have pulled out a lot of the tools that she gave me back then. And, my best friend's dad is a therapist. He won't go near anyone that is so close but my friend knows a lot of the language and lingo and she has been a great resource. However, I do recognize that there are a lot of times that I hold back with her because I don't want to appear weak. I have had the book Codependent No More on my shelf for a while now. I picked it up and started reading it this evening.

I was just reading today about Object Constancy and the pwBPD. Since they are stuck at a much younger age emotionally I think they must really feel like it's just comforting for us to be in the room, even if we aren't interacting. Our kids are all grown, the youngest is 26 and still at home, and my husband still wanted me to just be his "blankie" sort of, yunno?

Oh my, the object constancy fits so well. It is odd that I have read and studied so much about child development because, well, you know, I have to be the perfect mom in addition to being the perfect wife. I have to be prepared for anything and everything.   But, I don't think I ever really made that connection with him aside from thinking stuff like, ":)arn, he is worse than the kids." At our lowest point, it felt like him and the kids were actually fighting over me. It was surreal.

Part of how we learn to move forward in our healing is to learn what is good and healthy in a partnership relationship, then we know what to compare our own situation against. I had totally lost sight of what a married r/s should be and was pretty much just taking care of one more child--tho this one brought home the paycheck.

Oh my, that describes things here to a tee. In all honesty, I don't think I have ever really had any examples of a good married relationship. My parents relationship has always sucked. My mother is the adult child of an alcoholic and has always been difficult to live with. She makes my husband look like a saint, which is part of the reason that it was so easy to normalize things that weren't normal. I grew up in a home that was full of chaos and violence. My kids have told me that they don't like dealing with my family of origin because of all of the drama. So, all of the subtle slights and juvenile behavior of my husband seemed like a huge improvement. When I read stuff about healthy relationships, I find myself shaking my head thinking that it is something out of a fairy tale. Before my husband and I got married, we went to marriage prep classes and did compatibility tests and a whole bunch of other stuff. I thought I had done everything right. So, even though we have been married for 16 years, it is still hard for me to admit that things are as messed up as they are.

And when our husbands do enough really lovely things we can easily choose to overlook the stuff that makes us feel crazy, and we lose sight of what a truly healthy r/s should be like, where we both love the other just for being alive, and we're both supporting the other emotionally.

I don't know that my husband has ever really supported me emotionally. During the birth of one of our kids, he was busy talking to one of the assistants and showing off his books and stuff. I was livid because he was more focused on himself and his stuff and here I was trying to give birth. LOL.

You are definitely on the path toward improving your life and your choices, you think deeply, and as Formflier has pointed out you're quite self-aware. I think this is the point where you are beginning to come out of the FOG of fear, obligation and guilt, and it's a great place to be. It only gets better. 

I have been reading about stuff for years. I guess that is a hazard of my profession. LOL. I have been on the verge of it but was missing what I felt like was a vital piece. I went to one or two COSA meetings and did a lot of reading about it in the last year but was not ready to admit or even think about being codependent.

I am trying to figure out exactly where to start. The things that I feel are most pressing are:

1. Stop normalizing things that are anything but normal. Somebody mentioned that I am making a big deal of stuff that isn't a big deal and overlooking stuff that really is a big deal. I have become really, really good at normalizing and rationalizing. I can put a positive spin on just about anything. I can probably make even the craziest of people sound completely sane. LOL.

2. Accept what I have done and forgive myself.

3. Work on my self esteem by getting out of the house and practicing better self care.

4. Boundaries. I think those will come as a result of the other things that I have mentioned. I feel like I am already gaining a bit of ground in this area. I know that one of my weaknesses is that I hate conflict and everybody knows this. All somebody has to do is act distressed and I give in. I have to be pushed pretty far before I stand up for myself. And then, I tend to be a bit too assertive.

[waverider]

Hi vortex, I have been reading through your post with much interest, and can associate with much of what you have experienced.

I sense you have been living your life with a sense of trying to graft your two personalities together as best as possible to make a workable relationship. This graft has never really taken, and as it continues to fail you are trying to strap it together as best as you can.

The result of this is continuous sense of helplessness, confusion, resentment and difficulty in establishing respect for your partner. so how to move forward?

It is obvious that your are not going to be able to create this "unit" that is the aim of most partnerships. But does that mean it should fail? No.

You are unlikely to create a single homogeneous unit. However it is possible to have two separate people who can thrive. Rather than trying to graft yourselves together,ie your endless researching on how you can meet each others needs. You may need to consider an analogy.

Two trees standing in a forest, as they grow their branches inter twine, they provide support for each other, they share an ecosystem. However any weakness, disease, flaw in one does not wither the other as they both have separate structures, they have separate foundations, they individually take their own nourishment.

You need to be a stand alone identity within a couple.

Currently your actions and decisions are reactionary around providing, and/or coping. Rather than proactively doing what you believe is YOUR plan for growth. Your partner needs to be allowed to grow by his own actions. He will sucker from you if he can, that is a property of the neediness aspect of BPD.

Having spend most of your life analysing dysfunctionality, you are over complicating your interactions with it (still trying to graft with it). You need to take more of a supporting observer role. You are questioning your own self capabilities far too much.

If you feel something, want to do something, you have the right to do it. The fact that YOU feel it is right for you is enough justification. You are not responsible for his disapproval/approval, or how it appears to others. You grow or wither as a consequence of your own choices

With regards to your external relationship you became involved with. To him this was not about you, you were just a player in his fantasy. This is a common fantasy in the world of porn. It was just an extension of that, he was just acting out what he had probably read many times over. His "need" in this case overruled all risk of jealousies and sense of threat. Unlike family & friends who are not part of his "fantasy" and hence there is no 'need" at play to cause an override to the threat to his control. Trying to fit in and wanting to justify it as a benefit to you meant you went along with it. This was the diseased graft at work. This was not the decision of a stand alone entity (you). Even if you wanted this, you did not own it as your choice.

If you can separate your life choices from dysfunctionality, it actually becomes possible to live with it, without being infected by it.

[vortex of confusion]

I sense you have been living your life with a sense of trying to graft your two personalities together as best as possible to make a workable relationship. This graft has never really taken, and as it continues to fail you are trying to strap it together as best as you can.

I see what you are saying. I think. :-) I think the source of that has been the fact that for most of my life my interests were put on the back burner or were somehow dissed by those around me. If I tried to assert myself, I would get flack. This goes back to childhood. When I would try to join extracurricular activities, my mother would whine about the cost and make a big deal about getting me places. I would drop out. When I was in college and joined a gym, I was asked why I was doing such a silly thing. If I wanted to exercisie, I could get out and work in the yard or do "real" work. When I was planning my wedding and getting excited about it, I was told to stop talking about it because it was upsetting my sisters and making other people jealous. When I want to do things on my own in my marriage, I feel like it is a struggle. One of my husband's justifications for looking for female friends was that it was because we don't have enough in common. I am not a geek about some of the same things he is so he needed a different female to talk to about those sorts of things. We are in the same profession and have had others talk about us as being a package deal, a two for one special if you will.

The result of this is continuous sense of helplessness, confusion, resentment and difficulty in establishing respect for your partner. so how to move forward?

This is big. I think I have buried a lot of resentments and I have failed to openly acknowledge the fact that I have little or no respect for my partner. I seem to try to convince myself that I love and respect him. When I find myself having negative feelings towards him, I try to talk myself out of it. I try to find all of the good things about him while overlooking some really, really big things that very few 'normal' people would okay with. I need to face those feelings head on and stop trying to make excuses for him or me.

You are unlikely to create a single homogeneous unit. However it is possible to have two separate people who can thrive. Rather than trying to graft yourselves together,ie your endless researching on how you can meet each others needs. You may need to consider an analogy.

I like the tree analogy. I read a similar analogy somewhere. I can't find it now. I think it was something about

leaning and how in a codependent relationship one person holds up the other so that if the codependent person were to fall over or remove themselves the other would fall. It was a geometric analogy about propping things up and how in a healthy relationship you can remove either figure and both still stand. If one is weak, the other acts as support but the other is not required to hold up the other. Or something like that. 

Currently your actions and decisions are reactionary around providing, and/or coping. Rather than proactively doing what you believe is YOUR plan for growth. Your partner needs to be allowed to grow by his own actions. He will sucker from you if he can, that is a property of the neediness aspect of BPD.

This is so true. There are times that I am so exhausted that it is easier to slip into old patterns. I feel like for every step I take forward, I fall back two or three. I get easily discouraged.

Having spend most of your life analysing dysfunctionality, you are over complicating your interactions with it (still trying to graft with it). You need to take more of a supporting observer role. You are questioning your own self capabilities far too much.

I have had people say this to me repeatedly over the years. I tend to overthink things and question myself when I shouldn't. The overthinking and self questioning leads to way too much inaction. Aside from things like self care, how do I stop this cycle of overthinking, self doubt, and then inaction. I am very self aware but that self awareness is just that. I don't know how to act on it.

If you feel something, want to do something, you have the right to do it. The fact that YOU feel it is right for you is enough justification. You are not responsible for his disapproval/approval, or how it appears to others. You grow or wither as a consequence of your own choices.

I need to read this statement over and over and over again. Whether it is my family of origin, my husband, or my kids, I feel like my life has been one justification after another. There are certain people in my life that question anything and everything that I do. Sometimes, I feel like I live under a microscope. A lot of times, all I want to do is keep other people happy so that I can remain invisible. Of course, being invisible leads to all sorts of negative and lonely feelings. I justify those feelings by saying that I don't really deserve to be seen because if I am seen then everyone will see how big of a failure I am for not keeping myself together so that I can be the perfect wife, mother, daughter, sister, etc. OUCH!

With regards to your external relationship you became involved with. To him this was not about you, you were just a player in his fantasy. This is a common fantasy in the world of porn. It was just an extension of that, he was just acting out what he had probably read many times over. His "need" in this case overruled all risk of jealousies and sense of threat. Unlike family & friends who are not part of his "fantasy" and hence there is no 'need" at play to cause an override to the threat to his control. Trying to fit in and wanting to justify it as a benefit to you meant you went along with it.

I figured out that my husband was projecting his fantasies on me. He couldn't act out without jeopardizing his sobriety. He would push me to do things because he was simply acting out through me. He could get his thrills through me and then blame me if things weren't working out between us. I figured out a pattern. He would say that he didn't want me doing anything with anybody else so I would stop. When I would stop, he would go back to ignoring me and being grumpy. If I would start things back up with my friend, he would get excited and start paying attention to me. My friend has more problems than my husband and would say and do things that were equally confusing. I feel horrible to admit that all I wanted was some friggin' attention. It makes me sound and feel like an immature little kid. I am the one that usually has it all together yet there I was throwing a temper tantrum and acting like a kid just to get some attention.

This was the diseased graft at work. This was not the decision of a stand alone entity (you). Even if you wanted this, you did not own it as your choice.

I have a difficult time owning it as my choice. I chose it because it felt good to finally get some attention. It felt good to have two guys "fighting" over me if you will. Neither of them ever talked to each other but they would both ask about my activities with the other. It is sick and twisted. The things that I did are totally out of character for me. They are not things that I would ever choose to do. My own thinking had become really twisted and dysfunctional.

If you can separate your life choices from dysfunctionality, it actually becomes possible to live with it, without being infected by it.

That is the challenge for me. I have spent my entire life being surrounded by dysfunction. The dysfunction in my marriage still isn't as bad as some of the dysfunction that I grew up with in my family of origin. Most of my friends growing up were from families that were as dysfunctional as mine. When I have friends that are not enmeshed in dysfunction, I have a difficult time relating to them because their lives seem so foreign to me.

[DreamFlyer99]

Vortex,

things I've done like you:

Normalize the abnormal (like abuse)

Lose respect for my husband (hard to respect someone we allow to treat us like poop)

Slip into old patterns out of exhaustion (surviving is more tiring than thriving)

Overthink every pickin' thing (thinking feels "safe"

Not act (acting feels scary)

Try to be invisible (worked to keep me from getting as hurt when I was small. not helpful in marriage.)

The quote from Waverider that you love:

If you feel something, want to do something, you have the right to do it. The fact that YOU feel it is right for you is enough justification. You are not responsible for his disapproval/approval, or how it appears to others. You grow or wither as a consequence of your own choices.

I didn't know this until the past few years, but then it finally started making sense to me. It's a big one. And the whole tree analogy, just wow. That's a perfect description.

I guess what i'm trying to say is, I've been where you are now, more or less. But bit by bit I've been working through to change my old and not-so-useful belief system with the leaning tree over to the side by side tree. Changing my understanding of my real responsibilities in my marriage was astounding. Instead of trying to take care of the pruning of my H I finally started pruning my own tree. There is such a sense of freedom in it!

And you are on the way!

[waverider]

Vortex i think you need think more about the JADE aspect of your life, not just towards others but also more importantly towards yourself.

Identify a few core issues that are important to you and concentrate on them and consolidate them, rather than trying to find answers to life the universe and everything

Looking for answers can become an obsession to the point that we don't spend enough time putting into practice what we already know. Nothing gets past the theoretical stage. Finding answers is the easy part, hammering them into our own stubborn personalities so they have some real impact is the hard part

Many folks come here with thousands of question and masses of examples to back them up. The problem is these translate into thousands of self doubts. You need to package some of these up and put them away until later or you will be overwhelmed.

Just tackle one or two thing that make you feel rotten inside. Just taking this approach will make you take a directional approach to your problems as it forces you to prioritise.

There is no progress without a plan

[vortex of confusion]

Vortex i think you need think more about the JADE aspect of your life, not just towards others but also more importantly towards yourself.

I think I have become so programmed to JADE that it has become the default. I can't seem to do simple things without JADEing to myself. I have been trying to pay closer attention to my own inner dialogue and realize that I don't do anything without having some sort of inner dialogue to justify myself to myself. 

[formflier]

Looking for answers can become an obsession to the point that we don't spend enough time putting into practice what we already know. Nothing gets past the theoretical stage.

This idea was key for me.  I spent some time "deliberately" doing nothing but searching for answers and educating myself.

Then... .once I put my first boundary in place... .survived an extinction burst... .and saw that "this is possible"... .I dove headlong into putting things into action.

[waverider]

Its a fine line when over researching becomes procrastination. The"maybe" and "what ifs' keep us stuck in the theory part of learning.

Remember how we learnt stuff at school Theory> experiment>results> conclusions.

[vortex of confusion]

This idea was key for me.  I spent some time "deliberately" doing nothing but searching for answers and educating myself.

I think that is where I am at now. I am also trying to work up my nerve.

Then... .once I put my first boundary in place... .survived an extinction burst... .and saw that "this is possible"... .I dove headlong into putting things into action.

What exactly is an extinction burst? I am assuming that it is basically the partner pushing back and getting upset when the non tries to exert the boundaries. I have tried to put boundaries in place in the past but fail because I will survive the first couple of reactions but after a while I get exhausted and give up. I guess that is why I keep posting and asking questions and writing. I am trying to find the mental fortitude to do this and be able to stand firm no matter what.

Also, I think I really need to get some of this out. I spent almost 15 years not talking about any of this. I knew something wasn't right deep down but wouldn't talk about it. I went through my bookshelves last night and found 4 or 5 books about topics like codependcy, self-nurturing, trauma bonds, and related topics. I bought them with the intent of reading them but never did. I have started the codependent no more book a bunch of different times over the years. I am farther this time than I have ever been so that is a victory for me.

One other thing that I am struggling with that feels really silly to me. As I am reading through the checklists in Codependent No More, I see that most of the things apply to me. The one that I keep getting stuck on is "I was abused." Part of me refuses to accept that I have been abused by my husband or anyone else. That causes extreme feelings of discomfort and makes me want to puke quite frankly. I find myself thinking, "I wasn't abused. My husband isn't an abuser. He isn't a mean man." How can somebody be a good person yet be so abusive?

(just ruminating a bit because I have never verbalized some of things to anybody)

[DreamFlyer99]

Vortex,

I had the same trouble with the same thing--couldn't say the word "abuse" and cringed when my therapist first said it. I thought, how can such a smart, wise, funny guy be abusive?

It's a cycle we get caught in. It's the good times that make us feel like we're all doing alright. Then comes the dumping dumping dumping of their pain on us in whatever form it takes. When it's not as outright as taking a swing at us it's harder to accept, I found. When it's emotional our brain takes longer to disentangle the information when we've been in the cycle so long. That's traumatic. The drama and then the good bonds us.

I had to come to a point of accepting that was my husband's way of being, and that he gets to be however he wants to be. I just don't have to be a part of his cycle, I can choose to step back from participating in order to save my own emotional health.

I too struggle with the JADEing, far too much with myself like you do, but that's how I stayed in the cycle with my husband was to JADE when he was caught up in the throes of dumping his emotional pain.

Is "accepting the Truth of your situation" one of your "core issues" as Waverider said? That was a huge one of mine because staying involved in my husband's cycle was causing me physical problems--I now have Fibromyalgia, which seems to be one way for the body to say "you are way too reactive. slow the heck down."

[vortex of confusion]

I had the same trouble with the same thing--couldn't say the word "abuse" and cringed when my therapist first said it. I thought, how can such a smart, wise, funny guy be abusive?

Oh my goodness, this is exactly where I am at. If I admit that there is abuse involved, then that means that I am a victim. I am NOT a victim. I do not want to be a victim. I grew up with a mother and sisters that seem to always be victims of something. My mother was excellent at teaching us all how to be victims.

It's a cycle we get caught in. It's the good times that make us feel like we're all doing alright. Then comes the dumping dumping dumping of their pain on us in whatever form it takes. When it's not as outright as taking a swing at us it's harder to accept, I found. When it's emotional our brain takes longer to disentangle the information when we've been in the cycle so long. That's traumatic. The drama and then the good bonds us.

My spouse is working on himself, his addiction more specifically. I want to know his progress but at the same time I feel like his recovery has become the sole focus of his life. When I try to talk about anything, he finds a way to make it all about him. This morning I told him about JADEing because it is something we both do. He will justify, defend, and explain himself until I validate and agree with him. A simple affirming statement isn't enough. I used the example of going to the bathroom. Neither of us should have to explain ourselves for going to the bathroom. I was deliberately looking for a non-charged example. Somehow that turned into him going on and on and on about something from highschool. How does one handle it when the partner likes to JADE? It makes me feel like a real b***h because he acts like he has to justify himself to me even though I try to cut him off and say simple things like, "It's okay. That's fine."

Is "accepting the Truth of your situation" one of your "core issues" as Waverider said? That was a huge one of mine because staying involved in my husband's cycle was causing me physical problems--I now have Fibromyalgia, which seems to be one way for the body to say "you are way too reactive. slow the heck down."

I would say that is really the key core issue for me. I have been reading about the 5 stages of grief and seeing how I keep going through the first 4 stages without ever really coming to a place of acceptance. I am thinking of maybe starting a new thread about accepting things and how to grieve the loss of ever having a "normal" relationship while still maintaining the relationship and moving towards more healthy ways of interacting and thinking.

I have had chronic stomach troubles for years. When I have done things that were really out of my comfort zone, I end up getting physically ill to the point of throwing up.

[DreamFlyer99]

I have had chronic stomach troubles for years. When I have done things that were really out of my comfort zone, I end up getting physically ill to the point of throwing up.

Yup, our bodies are great barometers, we just need to learn to listen to them.

About grief, my therapist told me that the stages of grief can be all scrambled together, in various orders, etc. There is no one way through grief. I can look back and see I've been grieving the loss of a "normal" marriage for the last 2 years. It happens as we work through it, till finally something clicks. It finally did for me and I was able to say 'he gets to be whoever he wants to be, I get to choose what I take part in." No victims there. Just choices.

You start that new thread and i'll be there, it's right up my alley!

[DreamFlyer99]

And i'm with ya on how hard it is to talk with someone where everything comes back to how they feel about it, regardless. That's mind numbing sometimes!

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[123Phoebe]

I had the same trouble with the same thing--couldn't say the word "abuse" and cringed when my therapist first said it. I thought, how can such a smart, wise, funny guy be abusive?

I had trouble accepting it, too... Abuse?  Nah.  Abuse?  Huh.  Read read read whatever I could get my hands on.  Makes sense!

Being conditioned in childhood to accept emotional abuse set me up for it; insidious.  My thinking was so twisted and wacked out, that I would then abuse myself. 

[waverider]

I had the same trouble with the same thing--couldn't say the word "abuse" and cringed when my therapist first said it. I thought, how can such a smart, wise, funny guy be abusive?

I had trouble accepting it, too... Abuse?  Nah.  Abuse?  Huh.  Read read read whatever I could get my hands on.  Makes sense!

Being conditioned in childhood to accept emotional abuse set me up for it; insidious.  My thinking was so twisted and wacked out, that I would then abuse myself. 

Self denial ultimately ultimately morphs into lack of self respect. It is a kind of brain washing by complicity

[formflier]

What exactly is an extinction burst? 

Any senior guys have a link to a lesson on extinction burst?

The quick version is that they are used to getting around a boundary or having control over a certain area of your life.  When a pwBPD realizes that they are loosing control of that... .they will try something to get more control.  Sometimes that can be dramatic. 

Then... .they will quit trying and act like it was no big deal... .or deny the extinction burst happened.

Anyone have any good extinction burst stories to tell?

[waverider]

BPD BEHAVIORS: Extinction Bursts

[vortex of confusion]

Being conditioned in childhood to accept emotional abuse set me up for it; insidious.  My thinking was so twisted and wacked out, that I would then abuse myself. 

I think this is a big factor for me as well. In my family of origin, they were loud and were obviously abusive. There were tantrums and breaking things and yelling. With my husband, he is more of the quiet, passive aggressive type. His abuse has been more of the subtle stuff like talking down to me or questioning me or giving me looks. Like this evening, we were on the porch and he said he was going in to fold clothes. I said okay. He got kind of goofy and said, "Well, I guess I am not going in." I asked why not and he said, "You acted disappointed." I didn't think I was disappointed. I was more annoyed because I was telling him about my evening at work and he cut me off and said he was going in. All of those little bitty things add up. I was so conditioned to dealing with the great big obvious stuff that the little bitty quiet things went relatively unnoticed until they added up to me being whacked out.

[vortex of confusion]

Thanks for the information on extinction bursts. I am going to have to work harder on getting through them. Most of the time I am too exhausted to stand my ground and simply give in. My husband has such a terrible habit of nagging and talking about things until he gets his way. It drives me crazy when an adult will talk about the same thing over and over and over and over and over again. He has applied for a new job and all he talks about is whether or not they are going to contact him. He talks about how good things will be if he gets this new job. It has been a month and he mentions it at least once a day. Luckily, it isn't in relation to anything so there is nothing to give him to make him stop talking about it.

[formflier]

  "Well, I guess I am not going in." I asked why not and he said, "You acted disappointed." I didn't think I was disappointed. I was more annoyed because I was telling him about my evening at work and he cut me off and said he was going in. 

This is good that you can identify the interactions that are triggering for you.  I think this his odd... .in a pwBPD traits way... .of throwing down the gauntlet to get a reaction.

What do you think you could have done differently to respond in a way that is more in keeping with the lessons?

Do you think a boundary should be used?  Validation?  Why?

Again... .you are doing really well identifying areas to focus on... .

[formflier]

  I am too exhausted to stand my ground and simply give in. My husband has such a terrible habit of nagging and talking about things until he gets his way.

Have you read about STOP as a way of communicating to a pwBPD?

Is there a middle ground that you can choose between standing your ground and giving in?  What would be an acceptable compromise?

[vortex of confusion]

What do you think you could have done differently to respond in a way that is more in keeping with the lessons?

Do you think a boundary should be used?  Validation?  Why?

I am not sure how I could have responded differently. In reflecting back on it, I recognize that I was able to make a lot of headway in that I did NOT engage in an argument. Usually, small interactions like that will end up in a circular argument. When he said I sounded disappointed, I said something along the lines of, "I'm sorry. I didn't realize I sounded that way." I didn't say anything beyond that.

In the past, I would have likely gotten angry and said, "No, I am not disappointed. I am pissed because you essentially cut me off to go inside. I had a good evening at work and just wanted somebody to share it with. You always do this crap to me. If we were talking about you and your day, you would be perfectly content to drone on for hours. However, if it is me talking, you zone out or find ways to make it all about you." I had all of these thoughts in my head but I didn't say a single one of them. I kept my words to a minimum. I tried to acknowledge that he wanted to go inside by saying okay and then when he sat down in a bit of a huff because he thought I was disappointed I simply apologized and said I didn't realize that I was being that way.

Another small victory that I had recently was the other day when I was reading this forum. Something I read hit me kind of hard so I sighed. He was on the other side of the room and asked if anything was wrong. I said no. He asked why I was sighing and wondered if I needed some attention. One of his things is to sigh or be a bit exaggerated in his actions as a way to get attention. I was beginning to wonder if I do the same thing but I started becoming more aware of my actions. Sometimes, I sigh because of something that occurred to me. I am the type of person that is more apt to walk up and poke you and say, "Give me attention." I don't think I have ever been one to use those techniques because I know that people aren't mind readers and sometimes is a sigh is just a sigh. Quite frankly, I hate it when every little sigh or smile or frown is questioned. He was playing his computer game. I gave a simple answer and let it go rather than saying what I wanted to say, which was: "Why do you have to friggin' notice every little sigh or frown? You can't hear me when I am talking directly to you but you can hear me sigh from across the room and want to get all up in my business."

I am getting better at disengaging and not invalidating. When I think back on our interactions, I don't feel like I have much choice other than to validate him. Not only that but I have been reading about effective communication techniques for years in regards to parenting. Have you heard of non-violent communication techniques? I haven't read that stuff in years but it might be worth revisiting on my part because it is all about making the other person feel heard and validated. I don't remember the specifics but I do know there was a lot about restating what the other person says to make sure that they feel heard.

As I am typing this out, I wonder if I could have simply repeated back what he said in the form of a question. Given his past tendencies, I am pretty sure that anything that I said would have been turned into him trying to explain and justify his reasons for wanting to go inside. He pretty much did that when he told me he was going inside. He couldn't keep it simple. He had to justify why he was going inside. With him, it feels like the easiest and most peaceful thing to do is keep the words to a minimum and try to ignore the huffiness.

[vortex of confusion]

Have you read about STOP as a way of communicating to a pwBPD?

I haven't seen or heard anything about that.

Is there a middle ground that you can choose between standing your ground and giving in?  What would be an acceptable compromise?

I am not sure about a middle ground. In the past, I have tried to find compromises only to have him push the compromises or forget that we had compromised. Sometimes, we end up in these talking circles that end up with me not knowing which way is up. Or, he will take an extreme view. For example, I said that I needed to take a break from our physical relationship and he turns that into him becoming celebate. That was not something that I ever mentioned and it would be completely unreasonable for a wife to ask that of her husband unless there were extreme circumstances. I couldn't seem to get him to understand that I am not asking for him to be celebate forever. I am simply asking for some time.

[formflier]

Have you read about STOP as a way of communicating to a pwBPD?

[/quote]
Have you read the eggshells book?  I think it may have been in there.  I'll let you do some snooping on styles of communicating and ways to remember how to properly defuse and argument with a pwBPD.   Let me know how the searching is going.

  I am simply asking for some time.

How much time? 

[vortex of confusion]

How much time? 

I don't know. I recognize that is problematic for him. I know that he needs a set time frame for things. He would probably do better if I said something along the lines of, "Give me a week." I recognize that but I also do not know how to give him a time frame on this one. In all honesty, I feel like a dirty whore and the last thing I wand to do is be physically intimate with anybody. That is my problem not his. I cannot talk to him about this at all. I have tried. It is kind of like asking a rape victim to tell you when they are going to be ready to have sex again. Forcing them to think about those things and give a time frame can be traumatizing. That is pretty much how I feel on this one. I refuse to give a time frame even though I know that it will make him uncomfortable.

I will give him a time frame on everything else.

[DreamFlyer99]

vortex,

If we go back to the truth of a r/s with a pwBPD, some of the answers to why your h does what he does are in there.

Black and white thinking (all or nothing) = the celibate conversation.

"it's all about me" = the "sigh" extravaganza. He may be worried that your sigh is about him and that makes him start spinning. It also = "i'm going in to fold the laundry." Like you said, if you 2 were talking about his day he could go on quite happily, but about yours? Well, he loses interest because it's about... .you.

Somehow the function of the disorder coming out of that place of total fear of abandonment makes a pwBPD very self-involved. It's like with my Complex PTSD, written on my bones were the childish survival rules I made when there was no guidance and I was surrounded by crazy people. I carried these into my adulthood, but they don't work well, so I've had to learn how to see the truth, how to trust, how to keep myself safe etc from an adult standpoint. The pwBPD has a set of rules written on their bones too that shouts "I WILL BE ABANDONED! I HAVE NO WORTH!" If I understand right, that drives them to become so over-focused on themselves that Everything Is About Them. How they feel. How our actions MAKE them feel. What they need. What they want.

It takes retraining their brains for them to be able to do things differently, but just in case we can't wait for that, we retrain our own brains to understand the dynamics and learn the tools that help us function within the r/s.

Does that make any sense?

[DreamFlyer99]

By the way, can you accept that you are NOT a dirty whore? That you had lapses in judgment because you were caught up in trying to fix things? Forgiving ourselves for all those lapses in judgment is key to our healing... .I struggle with that too! Are we related?

[formflier]

How much time? 

I don't know. I recognize that is problematic for him. I know that he needs a set time frame for things. He would probably do better if I said something along the lines of, "Give me a week." I recognize that but I also do not know how to give him a time frame on this one. In all honesty, I feel like a dirty whore and the last thing I wand to do is be physically intimate with anybody. That is my problem not his. I cannot talk to him about this at all. I have tried. It is kind of like asking a rape victim to tell you when they are going to be ready to have sex again. Forcing them to think about those things and give a time frame can be traumatizing. That is pretty much how I feel on this one. I refuse to give a time frame even though I know that it will make him uncomfortable.

I will give him a time frame on everything else.

DreamFlyer99 had some spot on points... .please give us a reaction to that.

Also... wanted to take a minute to say that I understand discussing sexuality is incredibly private.  Yes we are online and anonymous... but still. 

If you would like me to drop discussing it... .I'm ok with that.

Sounds like you are aware this celibacy issue is not a "sideshow" for him... .but most likely a core issue.  I'm sure you feel it is one of your core issues as well. 

So... if you can be obvious about trying to happily work on his other needs and validate him in other ways while you work through this... it may reduce his abandonment issues some on this.  Maybe... .

Since this is most likely a core issue for both of you... .and you have complete control over this issue... .what is your plan to address this?  Discussing here is good... .but I'm not sure that is enough.

Note for clarity:  Nothing in my post should be read has "core issue"... ."hurry up and get over it"... .it should ready "core issue"... ."hurry up and address and work on the issue". 

[vortex of confusion]

Black and white thinking (all or nothing) = the celibate conversation.

"it's all about me" = the "sigh" extravaganza. He may be worried that your sigh is about him and that makes him start spinning. It also = "i'm going in to fold the laundry." Like you said, if you 2 were talking about his day he could go on quite happily, but about yours? Well, he loses interest because it's about... .you.

That makes a lot of sense. For years, I would take it personally and get hurt by it. At some point, I accepted that he has no desire to talk about me unless he can somehow change it around to be about him. This forum has given me a better understand of why that is. With my mother, I accepted the whole black/white all about me stuff a long, long time ago. That has been a source of discussion between me and my siblings and me and my father for years. We learned to listen to her and tune her out. Every now and then she will get ridiculous and we will hang up on her or simply walk away from the conversation. With my husband, it isn't so easy to do because I keep thinking, "This isn't what I signed up for. I got married and moved out because I wanted away from this junk. I wanted a normal relationship with a normal person." I am slowly seeing and coming to accept that I will never have those things as long as I am with my husband.

Somehow the function of the disorder coming out of that place of total fear of abandonment makes a pwBPD very self-involved. It's like with my Complex PTSD, written on my bones were the childish survival rules I made when there was no guidance and I was surrounded by crazy people. I carried these into my adulthood, but they don't work well, so I've had to learn how to see the truth, how to trust, how to keep myself safe etc from an adult standpoint. The pwBPD has a set of rules written on their bones too that shouts "I WILL BE ABANDONED! I HAVE NO WORTH!" If I understand right, that drives them to become so over-focused on themselves that Everything Is About Them. How they feel. How our actions MAKE them feel. What they need. What they want.

Childish survival rules! I love it because I can look at myself at times and clearly see where my behaviors and reactions coming from a place of being that wounded child that sat in the background wondering what was happening. I can see reactions from my childhood where I am thinking, ":)o whatever it takes to keep the peace. Don't make waves."

It takes retraining their brains for them to be able to do things differently, but just in case we can't wait for that, we retrain our own brains to understand the dynamics and learn the tools that help us function within the r/s.

I don't think that he will ever be fully committed to healing or retraining his brain. Quite frankly, I think he is making a half ___ effort. I don't say that to him but that is how I feel. I feel like he does just enough to appease me even though he is very adamant that this time he is doing it for himself. So, I am having to figure out how to cope and function in a way that increases the peace in our house as well as within myself.

Does that make any sense?

That actually makes a lot of sense.

[vortex of confusion]

Also... wanted to take a minute to say that I understand discussing sexuality is incredibly private.  Yes we are online and anonymous... but still. 

If you would like me to drop discussing it... .I'm ok with that.

I don't mind. Some of the things that are being asked and brought up are helpful and are causing me to give lots of things more thought.

Sounds like you are aware this celibacy issue is not a "sideshow" for him... .but most likely a core issue.  I'm sure you feel it is one of your core issues as well. 

One of my core issues is being able to separate sex from real intimacy. Most of our marriage has involved sex without intimacy. For a long time, I wondered how he could be a sex addict but not want me. For a long time, I have wondered how in the world we could be physical yet I still didn't feel like there was any intimacy in our relationship at all because there were no loving or reassuring touches. Heck, at night, I used to have to hold him and rub his back to help him go to sleep like I did with the kids. I remember I used to jokingly tell him, "Now kiss me like you mean it."

In all honesty, I am fed up over thinking about his issues with regards to sex. I am sick and tired of worrying about whether or not he is "sober". I gave myself to him and pretty much let him use me so he could claim sobriety. Frankly, I think that is the source of his "fear". He is afraid that if I don't give it to him he won't be able to control himself and will start self pleasuring or doing other things that will interfere with his sobriety. I don't think he is thinking about anything with regards to me. I think I am more of a means to an end.

So... if you can be obvious about trying to happily work on his other needs and validate him in other ways while you work through this... it may reduce his abandonment issues some on this.  Maybe... .

Oh my! This triggers me a bit because I don't know how much happier I can try to work on validating him and reducing his abandonment issues. This statement along with things that suggest I should be nicer of find ways to meet his needs more will somehow inspire him. I have been trying to inspire him for years. The more I give, the more he wants. Anybody that knows me sees how much I spoil him rotten. He will even say, "You spoil me rotten."

Since this is most likely a core issue for both of you... .and you have complete control over this issue... .what is your plan to address this?  Discussing here is good... .but I'm not sure that is enough.

Which issue is it that you are referring to here? Is it the sexual issue? If that is the case, I don't yet have a plan. I know I should seek a therapist to help me address this issue better. Right now, the thought of looking somebody in the eye and telling them what happened and what I did and what he has done makes me sick at my stomach. It causes me to get hot and have a lump well up in my throat.

The first thing I am trying to do is to take back ownership of MY body. I have cut off the physical affair. I felt like that guy was the same as my husband and was just using me as a play toy. But, the attention that I got from him felt good because he had a way of saying things. Little things like making it a point to take regular showers. I am more than happy to cuddle with my husband and snuggle with him and kiss him but I don't want sex. I want to focus on more innocent touching. All of our interactions seemed to be so sexually charged.

Also, I am hearing mixed messages in some of the questions that are being asked of me. I think it is because I have tried so many things over the years. On one hand, I am hearing "Take care of yourself and address your core issues" while at the same time I am hearing, "How are you going to handle his needs and how are you going to validate him more?" In all honesty, I don't know how I can validate him any more than I already do. I deliberately look for things that he does well and I try to compliment him. I look around the house to see what he has done when I get home from work. I thank him for watching his own kids. They are HIS kids yet I validate that he is taking care of HIS kids. His relationship with the kids is improving so I patiently listen to him give me a status report about what successes he has had with the kids. I try to praise him for it even though there are times when I want to scream at him and tell him, "They are YOUR kids and they deserve to have a good relationship with you. I shouldn't have to praise you for doing what most other parents in this world are doing without a single word." <sigh> But I don't do that. I tell him I love him and I praise him for all of the progress that he has made.

He has no clue how much progress I have made in the last year. He has no clue about any of it. A year or two ago, I was at my wits end and I told him that I needed help that I felt like I was drowning. He did nothing. If anything, he got lazier and felt even worse. That sent a really loud message that if I feel bad, he is going to feel even worse. I have gotten to a point where I try to smile as much as I can and no matter what happens, I am fine. I am always fine.

[123Phoebe]

I have gotten to a point where I try to smile as much as I can and no matter what happens, I am fine. I am always fine.

This could actually be invalidating his perception of what's going on with you, not to mention, invalidating yourself.

So he pouts and feels bad?

"I see that this makes you feel bad.  It makes sense that my disappointment might cause you to feel bad.  I wouldn't say that I'm disappointed as much as irritated that right in the middle of the conversation, you got up and left.  I feel irritated, not disappointed."

Our truth will S.E.T us free

[vortex of confusion]

"I see that this makes you feel bad.  It makes sense that my disappointment might cause you to feel bad.  I wouldn't say that I'm disappointed as much as irritated that right in the middle of the conversation, you got up and left.  I feel irritated, not disappointed."

Our truth will S.E.T us free

I know his patterns. If I were to try to correct his perception by saying that I was irritated rather than disappointed, he would have gotten even more upset. I know what he was trying to do. He was trying to get me to beg him to stay and tell him how disappointed I was that he was going to go inside. If I am irritated or upset by something he does, he will start beating himself up and apologizing for it and it will devolve into something else.

A couple of nights ago, he came into the bedroom where I was watching TV and working on the lap top. He went to change the channel to put it on cartoons. When I mentioned that cartoons were on in the living room, he got snotty and said, "I came in here to be with you." I let him change the channel because what I was only half watching the show. I did not want to argue with him. I have been reading about JADEing and some of the communication techniques. I get frustrated because it seems that the only thing that works sometimes is for me to simply acknowledge what he says and move on. Trying to correct his perception of me or my moods seems futile.

And I can hear myself and I know it sounds like I am making excuses.

[123Phoebe]

Trying to correct his perception of me or my moods seems futile.

And I can hear myself and I know it sounds like I am making excuses.

It's not about trying to correct him at all!  It has absolutely nothing to do with him in that way.  It's stating where you're at.  If he gets totally annoying, then it's time to skedaddle.  You are allowed to have your own feelings.

[waverider]

All this talk of validation is probably stressing you out by now. validation is not the be all and end all of everything, it is just a little oil in wheels of the machine.

Bring it back to being happy within yourself, and what YOU are comfortable with. You and your concerns are number 1 here. If worrying about whether you are providing validation enough or not is causing you issues, then stop trying for a moment. Knowing what it is about and recognizing it will be enough to prevent you from inadvertently INvalidating unnecessarily.  

I dont validate all the time, but I am careful not to openly invalidate. whatever you do wont be completely right, thats ok, but it will be better than it was and thats enough for now.

Bring the focus back onto you and what you want, don't loose that priority. Individual dramas and his reactions are ultimately his problem, you are just helping to put them back where they should be.

Now take a deep breath and think of a weekend alone on a tropical island with just a hammock and a good book (that has nothing to do with BPD) and tell yourself you deserve a break

[vortex of confusion]

You are allowed to have your own feelings.

I have found that the best way to have my own feelings is to NOT share them with him. If he perceives me as one way, I simply let him think whatever he wants. I have never really needed a lot of validation. I don't really have a strong need to be right either. What I need is for people to NOT question, nitpick, or try to change my feelings. The thing that works best to keep him from trying to contradict my feelings is to keep them to myself. I have friends that I can share with or I can find outlets online. When I was at the height of isolation, I did try to communicate my feelings to him but it seemed to make the bleeding worse.

[vortex of confusion]

All this talk of validation is probably stressing you out by now. validation is not the be all and end all of everything, it is just a little oil in wheels of the machine.

Yes, it is stressing me out a bit. The reason that it is a bit stressful is because I have known that things have been off between us for a really long time. I never knew what it was and I have researched and validated and tried to figure things out until I feel like I had driven myself crazy.

Bring it back to being happy within yourself, and what YOU are comfortable with. You and your concerns are number 1 here. If worrying about whether you are providing validation enough or not is causing you issues, then stop trying for a moment. Knowing what it is about and recognizing it will be enough to prevent you from inadvertently INvalidating unnecessarily.  

I feel like communication and validation are actually some of my strengths. Even my kids have commented on how nice and polite I can be. I have read through a lot of the communication techniques listed in the lessons. I have had to step in between him and the kids when he gets into with the kids. I somehow find a way to validate both parties and defuse the situations.

Most of the communication stuff is stuff that I got from other places over the years. None of it is new information to me. Validation/invalidation and basic communication are not core issues for me. My core issues tend to be about the sexual issues, mourning the loss of the relationship that I wanted, and, more importantly, accepting my truth.

Now take a deep breath and think of a weekend alone on a tropical island with just a hammock and a good book (that has nothing to do with BPD) and tell yourself you deserve a break

Sounds lovely! We must be related as I have lots of fond memories of laying in a hammock in my grandma's front yard reading a book!

[DreamFlyer99]

mourning the loss of the relationship that I wanted

Wow. That was such a big one for me, especially coming to the full realization after 30+ years of marriage. In fact, I had been mourning the loss of the relationship for longer than I was aware.

Now take a deep breath and think of a weekend alone on a tropical island with just a hammock and a good book (that has nothing to do with BPD) and tell yourself you deserve a break

I'm feelin' it too... .but i'm in a comfy lounge chair since I tend to fall out of hammocks... .

What kind of books do you like to read, Vortex? (of the non self-help variety.) Last summer I went on a dysfunctional families memoir extravaganza! The Glass Castle, The Liar's Club, and my fave, Chanel Bonfire. So great.

[vortex of confusion]

I'm feelin' it too... .but i'm in a comfy lounge chair since I tend to fall out of hammocks... .

What kind of books do you like to read, Vortex? (of the non self-help variety.) Last summer I went on a dysfunctional families memoir extravaganza! The Glass Castle, The Liar's Club, and my fave, Chanel Bonfire. So great.

I like John Grishom and John Saul. I am trying to remember the last novel that I sat down and read from cover to cover and am drawing a blank. I know I read 1984 not too long ago. I have started several novels but have lost interest after a bit. I just can't seem to concentrate on them any more. It doesn't help that I am one of these that gets lost in books and forgets my name. LOL.

[DreamFlyer99]

Ooohh--that's actually a GOOD thing that you can get that involved in something other than the craziness of life!

Maybe you need to start reading shorter books!

Seriously, it's important to have a "brain break." It's easy to become so obsessive with trying to figure out what we're dealing with that we lose all sense of balance. Our brains need breaks from the "usual."

[vortex of confusion]

Maybe you need to start reading shorter books!

LOL. So true. I guess that is why I tend to stick with short stuff that I read on the web. Or magazines. Or kids books. LOL. He just finished reading a book and has been nagging me to read it all day. I am really not interested in reading the book because I have other stuff on my mind.

Seriously, it's important to have a "brain break." It's easy to become so obsessive with trying to figure out what we're dealing with that we lose all sense of balance. Our brains need breaks from the "usual."

 I read the workshop about rumination today. Yeah, I definitely need to take a brain break soon. Right now, I am in cram mode and am trying to soak up as much information and gather as many tools, one of which is a taste of sanity, before I take a bit of a brain break.

[Rapt Reader]

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