Checking back in to the relationship

[DreamFlyer99]

And i'm with ya on how hard it is to talk with someone where everything comes back to how they feel about it, regardless. That's mind numbing sometimes!

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[123Phoebe]

I had the same trouble with the same thing--couldn't say the word "abuse" and cringed when my therapist first said it. I thought, how can such a smart, wise, funny guy be abusive?

I had trouble accepting it, too... Abuse?  Nah.  Abuse?  Huh.  Read read read whatever I could get my hands on.  Makes sense!

Being conditioned in childhood to accept emotional abuse set me up for it; insidious.  My thinking was so twisted and wacked out, that I would then abuse myself. 

[waverider]

I had the same trouble with the same thing--couldn't say the word "abuse" and cringed when my therapist first said it. I thought, how can such a smart, wise, funny guy be abusive?

I had trouble accepting it, too... Abuse?  Nah.  Abuse?  Huh.  Read read read whatever I could get my hands on.  Makes sense!

Being conditioned in childhood to accept emotional abuse set me up for it; insidious.  My thinking was so twisted and wacked out, that I would then abuse myself. 

Self denial ultimately ultimately morphs into lack of self respect. It is a kind of brain washing by complicity

[formflier]

What exactly is an extinction burst? 

Any senior guys have a link to a lesson on extinction burst?

The quick version is that they are used to getting around a boundary or having control over a certain area of your life.  When a pwBPD realizes that they are loosing control of that... .they will try something to get more control.  Sometimes that can be dramatic. 

Then... .they will quit trying and act like it was no big deal... .or deny the extinction burst happened.

Anyone have any good extinction burst stories to tell?

[waverider]

BPD BEHAVIORS: Extinction Bursts

[vortex of confusion]

Being conditioned in childhood to accept emotional abuse set me up for it; insidious.  My thinking was so twisted and wacked out, that I would then abuse myself. 

I think this is a big factor for me as well. In my family of origin, they were loud and were obviously abusive. There were tantrums and breaking things and yelling. With my husband, he is more of the quiet, passive aggressive type. His abuse has been more of the subtle stuff like talking down to me or questioning me or giving me looks. Like this evening, we were on the porch and he said he was going in to fold clothes. I said okay. He got kind of goofy and said, "Well, I guess I am not going in." I asked why not and he said, "You acted disappointed." I didn't think I was disappointed. I was more annoyed because I was telling him about my evening at work and he cut me off and said he was going in. All of those little bitty things add up. I was so conditioned to dealing with the great big obvious stuff that the little bitty quiet things went relatively unnoticed until they added up to me being whacked out.

[vortex of confusion]

Thanks for the information on extinction bursts. I am going to have to work harder on getting through them. Most of the time I am too exhausted to stand my ground and simply give in. My husband has such a terrible habit of nagging and talking about things until he gets his way. It drives me crazy when an adult will talk about the same thing over and over and over and over and over again. He has applied for a new job and all he talks about is whether or not they are going to contact him. He talks about how good things will be if he gets this new job. It has been a month and he mentions it at least once a day. Luckily, it isn't in relation to anything so there is nothing to give him to make him stop talking about it.

[formflier]

  "Well, I guess I am not going in." I asked why not and he said, "You acted disappointed." I didn't think I was disappointed. I was more annoyed because I was telling him about my evening at work and he cut me off and said he was going in. 

This is good that you can identify the interactions that are triggering for you.  I think this his odd... .in a pwBPD traits way... .of throwing down the gauntlet to get a reaction.

What do you think you could have done differently to respond in a way that is more in keeping with the lessons?

Do you think a boundary should be used?  Validation?  Why?

Again... .you are doing really well identifying areas to focus on... .

[formflier]

  I am too exhausted to stand my ground and simply give in. My husband has such a terrible habit of nagging and talking about things until he gets his way.

Have you read about STOP as a way of communicating to a pwBPD?

Is there a middle ground that you can choose between standing your ground and giving in?  What would be an acceptable compromise?

[vortex of confusion]

What do you think you could have done differently to respond in a way that is more in keeping with the lessons?

Do you think a boundary should be used?  Validation?  Why?

I am not sure how I could have responded differently. In reflecting back on it, I recognize that I was able to make a lot of headway in that I did NOT engage in an argument. Usually, small interactions like that will end up in a circular argument. When he said I sounded disappointed, I said something along the lines of, "I'm sorry. I didn't realize I sounded that way." I didn't say anything beyond that.

In the past, I would have likely gotten angry and said, "No, I am not disappointed. I am pissed because you essentially cut me off to go inside. I had a good evening at work and just wanted somebody to share it with. You always do this crap to me. If we were talking about you and your day, you would be perfectly content to drone on for hours. However, if it is me talking, you zone out or find ways to make it all about you." I had all of these thoughts in my head but I didn't say a single one of them. I kept my words to a minimum. I tried to acknowledge that he wanted to go inside by saying okay and then when he sat down in a bit of a huff because he thought I was disappointed I simply apologized and said I didn't realize that I was being that way.

Another small victory that I had recently was the other day when I was reading this forum. Something I read hit me kind of hard so I sighed. He was on the other side of the room and asked if anything was wrong. I said no. He asked why I was sighing and wondered if I needed some attention. One of his things is to sigh or be a bit exaggerated in his actions as a way to get attention. I was beginning to wonder if I do the same thing but I started becoming more aware of my actions. Sometimes, I sigh because of something that occurred to me. I am the type of person that is more apt to walk up and poke you and say, "Give me attention." I don't think I have ever been one to use those techniques because I know that people aren't mind readers and sometimes is a sigh is just a sigh. Quite frankly, I hate it when every little sigh or smile or frown is questioned. He was playing his computer game. I gave a simple answer and let it go rather than saying what I wanted to say, which was: "Why do you have to friggin' notice every little sigh or frown? You can't hear me when I am talking directly to you but you can hear me sigh from across the room and want to get all up in my business."

I am getting better at disengaging and not invalidating. When I think back on our interactions, I don't feel like I have much choice other than to validate him. Not only that but I have been reading about effective communication techniques for years in regards to parenting. Have you heard of non-violent communication techniques? I haven't read that stuff in years but it might be worth revisiting on my part because it is all about making the other person feel heard and validated. I don't remember the specifics but I do know there was a lot about restating what the other person says to make sure that they feel heard.

As I am typing this out, I wonder if I could have simply repeated back what he said in the form of a question. Given his past tendencies, I am pretty sure that anything that I said would have been turned into him trying to explain and justify his reasons for wanting to go inside. He pretty much did that when he told me he was going inside. He couldn't keep it simple. He had to justify why he was going inside. With him, it feels like the easiest and most peaceful thing to do is keep the words to a minimum and try to ignore the huffiness.

[vortex of confusion]

Have you read about STOP as a way of communicating to a pwBPD?

I haven't seen or heard anything about that.

Is there a middle ground that you can choose between standing your ground and giving in?  What would be an acceptable compromise?

I am not sure about a middle ground. In the past, I have tried to find compromises only to have him push the compromises or forget that we had compromised. Sometimes, we end up in these talking circles that end up with me not knowing which way is up. Or, he will take an extreme view. For example, I said that I needed to take a break from our physical relationship and he turns that into him becoming celebate. That was not something that I ever mentioned and it would be completely unreasonable for a wife to ask that of her husband unless there were extreme circumstances. I couldn't seem to get him to understand that I am not asking for him to be celebate forever. I am simply asking for some time.

[formflier]

Have you read about STOP as a way of communicating to a pwBPD?

[/quote]
Have you read the eggshells book?  I think it may have been in there.  I'll let you do some snooping on styles of communicating and ways to remember how to properly defuse and argument with a pwBPD.   Let me know how the searching is going.

  I am simply asking for some time.

How much time? 

[vortex of confusion]

How much time? 

I don't know. I recognize that is problematic for him. I know that he needs a set time frame for things. He would probably do better if I said something along the lines of, "Give me a week." I recognize that but I also do not know how to give him a time frame on this one. In all honesty, I feel like a dirty whore and the last thing I wand to do is be physically intimate with anybody. That is my problem not his. I cannot talk to him about this at all. I have tried. It is kind of like asking a rape victim to tell you when they are going to be ready to have sex again. Forcing them to think about those things and give a time frame can be traumatizing. That is pretty much how I feel on this one. I refuse to give a time frame even though I know that it will make him uncomfortable.

I will give him a time frame on everything else.

[DreamFlyer99]

vortex,

If we go back to the truth of a r/s with a pwBPD, some of the answers to why your h does what he does are in there.

Black and white thinking (all or nothing) = the celibate conversation.

"it's all about me" = the "sigh" extravaganza. He may be worried that your sigh is about him and that makes him start spinning. It also = "i'm going in to fold the laundry." Like you said, if you 2 were talking about his day he could go on quite happily, but about yours? Well, he loses interest because it's about... .you.

Somehow the function of the disorder coming out of that place of total fear of abandonment makes a pwBPD very self-involved. It's like with my Complex PTSD, written on my bones were the childish survival rules I made when there was no guidance and I was surrounded by crazy people. I carried these into my adulthood, but they don't work well, so I've had to learn how to see the truth, how to trust, how to keep myself safe etc from an adult standpoint. The pwBPD has a set of rules written on their bones too that shouts "I WILL BE ABANDONED! I HAVE NO WORTH!" If I understand right, that drives them to become so over-focused on themselves that Everything Is About Them. How they feel. How our actions MAKE them feel. What they need. What they want.

It takes retraining their brains for them to be able to do things differently, but just in case we can't wait for that, we retrain our own brains to understand the dynamics and learn the tools that help us function within the r/s.

Does that make any sense?

[DreamFlyer99]

By the way, can you accept that you are NOT a dirty whore? That you had lapses in judgment because you were caught up in trying to fix things? Forgiving ourselves for all those lapses in judgment is key to our healing... .I struggle with that too! Are we related?

[formflier]

How much time? 

I don't know. I recognize that is problematic for him. I know that he needs a set time frame for things. He would probably do better if I said something along the lines of, "Give me a week." I recognize that but I also do not know how to give him a time frame on this one. In all honesty, I feel like a dirty whore and the last thing I wand to do is be physically intimate with anybody. That is my problem not his. I cannot talk to him about this at all. I have tried. It is kind of like asking a rape victim to tell you when they are going to be ready to have sex again. Forcing them to think about those things and give a time frame can be traumatizing. That is pretty much how I feel on this one. I refuse to give a time frame even though I know that it will make him uncomfortable.

I will give him a time frame on everything else.

DreamFlyer99 had some spot on points... .please give us a reaction to that.

Also... wanted to take a minute to say that I understand discussing sexuality is incredibly private.  Yes we are online and anonymous... but still. 

If you would like me to drop discussing it... .I'm ok with that.

Sounds like you are aware this celibacy issue is not a "sideshow" for him... .but most likely a core issue.  I'm sure you feel it is one of your core issues as well. 

So... if you can be obvious about trying to happily work on his other needs and validate him in other ways while you work through this... it may reduce his abandonment issues some on this.  Maybe... .

Since this is most likely a core issue for both of you... .and you have complete control over this issue... .what is your plan to address this?  Discussing here is good... .but I'm not sure that is enough.

Note for clarity:  Nothing in my post should be read has "core issue"... ."hurry up and get over it"... .it should ready "core issue"... ."hurry up and address and work on the issue". 

[vortex of confusion]

Black and white thinking (all or nothing) = the celibate conversation.

"it's all about me" = the "sigh" extravaganza. He may be worried that your sigh is about him and that makes him start spinning. It also = "i'm going in to fold the laundry." Like you said, if you 2 were talking about his day he could go on quite happily, but about yours? Well, he loses interest because it's about... .you.

That makes a lot of sense. For years, I would take it personally and get hurt by it. At some point, I accepted that he has no desire to talk about me unless he can somehow change it around to be about him. This forum has given me a better understand of why that is. With my mother, I accepted the whole black/white all about me stuff a long, long time ago. That has been a source of discussion between me and my siblings and me and my father for years. We learned to listen to her and tune her out. Every now and then she will get ridiculous and we will hang up on her or simply walk away from the conversation. With my husband, it isn't so easy to do because I keep thinking, "This isn't what I signed up for. I got married and moved out because I wanted away from this junk. I wanted a normal relationship with a normal person." I am slowly seeing and coming to accept that I will never have those things as long as I am with my husband.

Somehow the function of the disorder coming out of that place of total fear of abandonment makes a pwBPD very self-involved. It's like with my Complex PTSD, written on my bones were the childish survival rules I made when there was no guidance and I was surrounded by crazy people. I carried these into my adulthood, but they don't work well, so I've had to learn how to see the truth, how to trust, how to keep myself safe etc from an adult standpoint. The pwBPD has a set of rules written on their bones too that shouts "I WILL BE ABANDONED! I HAVE NO WORTH!" If I understand right, that drives them to become so over-focused on themselves that Everything Is About Them. How they feel. How our actions MAKE them feel. What they need. What they want.

Childish survival rules! I love it because I can look at myself at times and clearly see where my behaviors and reactions coming from a place of being that wounded child that sat in the background wondering what was happening. I can see reactions from my childhood where I am thinking, ":)o whatever it takes to keep the peace. Don't make waves."

It takes retraining their brains for them to be able to do things differently, but just in case we can't wait for that, we retrain our own brains to understand the dynamics and learn the tools that help us function within the r/s.

I don't think that he will ever be fully committed to healing or retraining his brain. Quite frankly, I think he is making a half ___ effort. I don't say that to him but that is how I feel. I feel like he does just enough to appease me even though he is very adamant that this time he is doing it for himself. So, I am having to figure out how to cope and function in a way that increases the peace in our house as well as within myself.

Does that make any sense?

That actually makes a lot of sense.

[vortex of confusion]

Also... wanted to take a minute to say that I understand discussing sexuality is incredibly private.  Yes we are online and anonymous... but still. 

If you would like me to drop discussing it... .I'm ok with that.

I don't mind. Some of the things that are being asked and brought up are helpful and are causing me to give lots of things more thought.

Sounds like you are aware this celibacy issue is not a "sideshow" for him... .but most likely a core issue.  I'm sure you feel it is one of your core issues as well. 

One of my core issues is being able to separate sex from real intimacy. Most of our marriage has involved sex without intimacy. For a long time, I wondered how he could be a sex addict but not want me. For a long time, I have wondered how in the world we could be physical yet I still didn't feel like there was any intimacy in our relationship at all because there were no loving or reassuring touches. Heck, at night, I used to have to hold him and rub his back to help him go to sleep like I did with the kids. I remember I used to jokingly tell him, "Now kiss me like you mean it."

In all honesty, I am fed up over thinking about his issues with regards to sex. I am sick and tired of worrying about whether or not he is "sober". I gave myself to him and pretty much let him use me so he could claim sobriety. Frankly, I think that is the source of his "fear". He is afraid that if I don't give it to him he won't be able to control himself and will start self pleasuring or doing other things that will interfere with his sobriety. I don't think he is thinking about anything with regards to me. I think I am more of a means to an end.

So... if you can be obvious about trying to happily work on his other needs and validate him in other ways while you work through this... it may reduce his abandonment issues some on this.  Maybe... .

Oh my! This triggers me a bit because I don't know how much happier I can try to work on validating him and reducing his abandonment issues. This statement along with things that suggest I should be nicer of find ways to meet his needs more will somehow inspire him. I have been trying to inspire him for years. The more I give, the more he wants. Anybody that knows me sees how much I spoil him rotten. He will even say, "You spoil me rotten."

Since this is most likely a core issue for both of you... .and you have complete control over this issue... .what is your plan to address this?  Discussing here is good... .but I'm not sure that is enough.

Which issue is it that you are referring to here? Is it the sexual issue? If that is the case, I don't yet have a plan. I know I should seek a therapist to help me address this issue better. Right now, the thought of looking somebody in the eye and telling them what happened and what I did and what he has done makes me sick at my stomach. It causes me to get hot and have a lump well up in my throat.

The first thing I am trying to do is to take back ownership of MY body. I have cut off the physical affair. I felt like that guy was the same as my husband and was just using me as a play toy. But, the attention that I got from him felt good because he had a way of saying things. Little things like making it a point to take regular showers. I am more than happy to cuddle with my husband and snuggle with him and kiss him but I don't want sex. I want to focus on more innocent touching. All of our interactions seemed to be so sexually charged.

Also, I am hearing mixed messages in some of the questions that are being asked of me. I think it is because I have tried so many things over the years. On one hand, I am hearing "Take care of yourself and address your core issues" while at the same time I am hearing, "How are you going to handle his needs and how are you going to validate him more?" In all honesty, I don't know how I can validate him any more than I already do. I deliberately look for things that he does well and I try to compliment him. I look around the house to see what he has done when I get home from work. I thank him for watching his own kids. They are HIS kids yet I validate that he is taking care of HIS kids. His relationship with the kids is improving so I patiently listen to him give me a status report about what successes he has had with the kids. I try to praise him for it even though there are times when I want to scream at him and tell him, "They are YOUR kids and they deserve to have a good relationship with you. I shouldn't have to praise you for doing what most other parents in this world are doing without a single word." <sigh> But I don't do that. I tell him I love him and I praise him for all of the progress that he has made.

He has no clue how much progress I have made in the last year. He has no clue about any of it. A year or two ago, I was at my wits end and I told him that I needed help that I felt like I was drowning. He did nothing. If anything, he got lazier and felt even worse. That sent a really loud message that if I feel bad, he is going to feel even worse. I have gotten to a point where I try to smile as much as I can and no matter what happens, I am fine. I am always fine.

[123Phoebe]

I have gotten to a point where I try to smile as much as I can and no matter what happens, I am fine. I am always fine.

This could actually be invalidating his perception of what's going on with you, not to mention, invalidating yourself.

So he pouts and feels bad?

"I see that this makes you feel bad.  It makes sense that my disappointment might cause you to feel bad.  I wouldn't say that I'm disappointed as much as irritated that right in the middle of the conversation, you got up and left.  I feel irritated, not disappointed."

Our truth will S.E.T us free

[vortex of confusion]

"I see that this makes you feel bad.  It makes sense that my disappointment might cause you to feel bad.  I wouldn't say that I'm disappointed as much as irritated that right in the middle of the conversation, you got up and left.  I feel irritated, not disappointed."

Our truth will S.E.T us free

I know his patterns. If I were to try to correct his perception by saying that I was irritated rather than disappointed, he would have gotten even more upset. I know what he was trying to do. He was trying to get me to beg him to stay and tell him how disappointed I was that he was going to go inside. If I am irritated or upset by something he does, he will start beating himself up and apologizing for it and it will devolve into something else.

A couple of nights ago, he came into the bedroom where I was watching TV and working on the lap top. He went to change the channel to put it on cartoons. When I mentioned that cartoons were on in the living room, he got snotty and said, "I came in here to be with you." I let him change the channel because what I was only half watching the show. I did not want to argue with him. I have been reading about JADEing and some of the communication techniques. I get frustrated because it seems that the only thing that works sometimes is for me to simply acknowledge what he says and move on. Trying to correct his perception of me or my moods seems futile.

And I can hear myself and I know it sounds like I am making excuses.

[123Phoebe]

Trying to correct his perception of me or my moods seems futile.

And I can hear myself and I know it sounds like I am making excuses.

It's not about trying to correct him at all!  It has absolutely nothing to do with him in that way.  It's stating where you're at.  If he gets totally annoying, then it's time to skedaddle.  You are allowed to have your own feelings.

[waverider]

All this talk of validation is probably stressing you out by now. validation is not the be all and end all of everything, it is just a little oil in wheels of the machine.

Bring it back to being happy within yourself, and what YOU are comfortable with. You and your concerns are number 1 here. If worrying about whether you are providing validation enough or not is causing you issues, then stop trying for a moment. Knowing what it is about and recognizing it will be enough to prevent you from inadvertently INvalidating unnecessarily.  

I dont validate all the time, but I am careful not to openly invalidate. whatever you do wont be completely right, thats ok, but it will be better than it was and thats enough for now.

Bring the focus back onto you and what you want, don't loose that priority. Individual dramas and his reactions are ultimately his problem, you are just helping to put them back where they should be.

Now take a deep breath and think of a weekend alone on a tropical island with just a hammock and a good book (that has nothing to do with BPD) and tell yourself you deserve a break

[vortex of confusion]

You are allowed to have your own feelings.

I have found that the best way to have my own feelings is to NOT share them with him. If he perceives me as one way, I simply let him think whatever he wants. I have never really needed a lot of validation. I don't really have a strong need to be right either. What I need is for people to NOT question, nitpick, or try to change my feelings. The thing that works best to keep him from trying to contradict my feelings is to keep them to myself. I have friends that I can share with or I can find outlets online. When I was at the height of isolation, I did try to communicate my feelings to him but it seemed to make the bleeding worse.

[vortex of confusion]

All this talk of validation is probably stressing you out by now. validation is not the be all and end all of everything, it is just a little oil in wheels of the machine.

Yes, it is stressing me out a bit. The reason that it is a bit stressful is because I have known that things have been off between us for a really long time. I never knew what it was and I have researched and validated and tried to figure things out until I feel like I had driven myself crazy.

Bring it back to being happy within yourself, and what YOU are comfortable with. You and your concerns are number 1 here. If worrying about whether you are providing validation enough or not is causing you issues, then stop trying for a moment. Knowing what it is about and recognizing it will be enough to prevent you from inadvertently INvalidating unnecessarily.  

I feel like communication and validation are actually some of my strengths. Even my kids have commented on how nice and polite I can be. I have read through a lot of the communication techniques listed in the lessons. I have had to step in between him and the kids when he gets into with the kids. I somehow find a way to validate both parties and defuse the situations.

Most of the communication stuff is stuff that I got from other places over the years. None of it is new information to me. Validation/invalidation and basic communication are not core issues for me. My core issues tend to be about the sexual issues, mourning the loss of the relationship that I wanted, and, more importantly, accepting my truth.

Now take a deep breath and think of a weekend alone on a tropical island with just a hammock and a good book (that has nothing to do with BPD) and tell yourself you deserve a break

Sounds lovely! We must be related as I have lots of fond memories of laying in a hammock in my grandma's front yard reading a book!

[DreamFlyer99]

mourning the loss of the relationship that I wanted

Wow. That was such a big one for me, especially coming to the full realization after 30+ years of marriage. In fact, I had been mourning the loss of the relationship for longer than I was aware.

Now take a deep breath and think of a weekend alone on a tropical island with just a hammock and a good book (that has nothing to do with BPD) and tell yourself you deserve a break

I'm feelin' it too... .but i'm in a comfy lounge chair since I tend to fall out of hammocks... .

What kind of books do you like to read, Vortex? (of the non self-help variety.) Last summer I went on a dysfunctional families memoir extravaganza! The Glass Castle, The Liar's Club, and my fave, Chanel Bonfire. So great.

[vortex of confusion]

I'm feelin' it too... .but i'm in a comfy lounge chair since I tend to fall out of hammocks... .

What kind of books do you like to read, Vortex? (of the non self-help variety.) Last summer I went on a dysfunctional families memoir extravaganza! The Glass Castle, The Liar's Club, and my fave, Chanel Bonfire. So great.

I like John Grishom and John Saul. I am trying to remember the last novel that I sat down and read from cover to cover and am drawing a blank. I know I read 1984 not too long ago. I have started several novels but have lost interest after a bit. I just can't seem to concentrate on them any more. It doesn't help that I am one of these that gets lost in books and forgets my name. LOL.

[DreamFlyer99]

Ooohh--that's actually a GOOD thing that you can get that involved in something other than the craziness of life!

Maybe you need to start reading shorter books!

Seriously, it's important to have a "brain break." It's easy to become so obsessive with trying to figure out what we're dealing with that we lose all sense of balance. Our brains need breaks from the "usual."

[vortex of confusion]

Maybe you need to start reading shorter books!

LOL. So true. I guess that is why I tend to stick with short stuff that I read on the web. Or magazines. Or kids books. LOL. He just finished reading a book and has been nagging me to read it all day. I am really not interested in reading the book because I have other stuff on my mind.

Seriously, it's important to have a "brain break." It's easy to become so obsessive with trying to figure out what we're dealing with that we lose all sense of balance. Our brains need breaks from the "usual."

 I read the workshop about rumination today. Yeah, I definitely need to take a brain break soon. Right now, I am in cram mode and am trying to soak up as much information and gather as many tools, one of which is a taste of sanity, before I take a bit of a brain break.

[Rapt Reader]

This thread has reached its page limit, and has been locked. It is a worthwhile topic, and you are free to start a new thread to continue the conversation... .