How do you empower kids against BPD/NPD parent?

[Family Court Strategies: When Your Partner Has BPD OR NPD Traits.]

BPD/NPDxh had a phone call with D9 and S7 asked them how much spending money he should put in mum's bank account for their holiday.

They kept saying as much as you want, it doesn't matter, at least 5 times.

BPD/NPDxh kept pushing them for a number so S7 said "I know, $130".

BPD/NPDxn got defensive and said that S7 shouldn't have told him a number, that he should just be happy with whatever he gets and said it might be $20 each if he doesn't have much money or it might be a lot more. He was really mean about it and kept on going and going. It felt so familiar  :'(

It was a terrible conversation and S7 went completely quiet and at the end of his rant, he said "sorry dad".

I talked to S7 about it after the call and he said he was confused about it all and he didn't understand why giving an answer was wrong when he was asked to. I asked him if that had happened before and he said yes. I asked why he stayed quiet, and he said because dad was angry and he just had to listen. I asked why he said sorry, and he said because he made dad sad and angry.

I asked him if he thought dad acted in a weird way or a normal way. He said weird. Not like other adults.

I told him that he was right, and that he hadn't done anything wrong. I said dad could have just told you how much or not told you, but he shouldn't have pushed you for an answer when you didn't have one, and then use it to be mad.

I asked D9 about it, and she said nothing was wrong, only that S7 shouldn't have told him a number. I don't know if that means she already thinks it's normal?

It shows me that it's happened before, a lot. S9 already acted like me - climbing under the bed and waiting for the storm to pass before apologising.

On the other hand, D9 wants to please her dad and took his side and apart from having a weird look on her face during the phone conversation, also assumed silence was the right response.



Did I do the right thing? What else can I do so they can be prepared in the future?

[Forward2free]

BPD/NPDxh had a phone call with D9 and S7 asked them how much spending money he should put in mum's bank account for their holiday.

They kept saying as much as you want, it doesn't matter, at least 5 times.

BPD/NPDxh kept pushing them for a number so S7 said "I know, $130".

BPD/NPDxn got defensive and said that S7 shouldn't have told him a number, that he should just be happy with whatever he gets and said it might be $20 each if he doesn't have much money or it might be a lot more. He was really mean about it and kept on going and going. It felt so familiar  :'(

It was a terrible conversation and S7 went completely quiet and at the end of his rant, he said "sorry dad".

I talked to S7 about it after the call and he said he was confused about it all and he didn't understand why giving an answer was wrong when he was asked to. I asked him if that had happened before and he said yes. I asked why he stayed quiet, and he said because dad was angry and he just had to listen. I asked why he said sorry, and he said because he made dad sad and angry.

I asked him if he thought dad acted in a weird way or a normal way. He said weird. Not like other adults.

I told him that he was right, and that he hadn't done anything wrong. I said dad could have just told you how much or not told you, but he shouldn't have pushed you for an answer when you didn't have one, and then use it to be mad.

I asked D9 about it, and she said nothing was wrong, only that S7 shouldn't have told him a number. I don't know if that means she already thinks it's normal?

It shows me that it's happened before, a lot. S9 already acted like me - climbing under the bed and waiting for the storm to pass before apologising.

On the other hand, D9 wants to please her dad and took his side and apart from having a weird look on her face during the phone conversation, also assumed silence was the right response.



Did I do the right thing? What else can I do so they can be prepared in the future?

[Matt]

Can I change your question a little?

How about, "How do you empower kids to not be hurt by BPD/NPD parent?".

The reason I say that is, part of the challenge is to help the kids take care of themselves and protect themselves, without feeling they are "against" their dad.

It isn't easy but there are a few things that seem to help.

One is counseling, not to "fix" some "problem" the kids have - they don't have the problem - but to help them learn skills to deal with their dad.  I found a counselor by asking the school counselor to recommend someone.

Also, it helps to listen carefully when they are ready to talk, and make sure they know you are listening.

You can validate their perceptions and feelings about their dad by saying things back to them, without judging:  "So it sounds like you are sad about how things went with your dad - is that right?".

And what you were doing is good too - helping them process what happened and decide for themselves how they feel about it, not to blame their dad or try to fix him, but to be OK with their own feelings.  Saying how they feel helps them accept their own feelings and be OK with them, and when they see that you aren't judging them or telling them how to feel they'll feel stronger.

[Tibbles]

Hi - my kids are grown up now but I struggled with how to get them through when they were younger. You are doing a much better job than I did. I had no idea what was going on and I tended to sweep it all under the carpet in the hopes it would go away - it didn't! I think my kids would have found it easier to cope if I'd done more of the stuff you are doing. What I can offer is they both say now that at least they had me - some one normal who supported them no matter what. Some one who trusted them and gave them unconditional love no matter what is what they say helped them the most. Sounds like you are giving them that - great job!

[livednlearned]

I can so relate to this question, F2F.

Your responses were really good with your kids. Getting them to acknowledge the BPD behavior, and to acknowledge how they feel (it is unusual, or abusive, or whatever), and then agreeing that it was confusing -- that has gone a long way with my son.

When our kids are with the BPD parent, they have to cope somehow. Pleasing their dad, or going silent -- I did that in response to N/BPDx, and I was an adult. Asking our kids to do anything different can put them in a dangerous situation. So I started to think about things in terms of experiments and hypotheses that S13 and I would talk about together. I might say to S13, What would happen if you said x instead of y? And do you think you could try this tactic instead of that one.  On one occasion, S13 actually said to N/BPDx, "It sounds like you're still really mad at mom." My little validator 

N/BPDx backed down a little (he had been interrogating S13 about me), and admitted he was angry.

Your son and daughter, because they want to please their dad, might find something like that useful (although I also think it's really tough for adults to understand what validation is, and kids might not get it so easily either).

But honestly, I think the biggest way to help empower the kids is to observe our own behavior and think about the message we send them through our own actions. Or describe how we think about our own interactions. I started to talk out loud with S13 about interacting with people, and it's been really helpful for S13. I tell him about situations at work, and how I felt, how I wanted to react, how sometimes I reacted in the past, how I handled it different this time, plus the consequences, if any. Or, if S13 and I are out with friends, I'll point out things and ask S13 what was going on. At middle school orientation the other night, he did something that was kinda insensitive to a friend, so I asked S13 what was going on, if he felt ok about what he said, did he wish he could've handled it different, why did the other person react that way, etc.

Constant commentary 

They watch us really carefully and follow our cues.

[dermo]

I would set boundaries... .money should be discussed between adults and not with children... .

[ennie]

I like how Matt changed the question.  I think it is really important to realize that the kids' relationship with the disordered parent is different than my relationship with her, and different than my DH's relationship with his ex.  And, as painful as it is to see the kids hurt by their parent, it is important (IMO) for me to recognize that thinking that person is bad for the ways she is difficult is not really helpful, to me or the kids or to anyone.  For the kids, she is totally beloved, no matter what, and because kids identify with their parents, me putting mom down feels like putting them down. 

For a child, thinking a parent is weird does not help him or her to have a clear separation between himself and the parent.  So with my stepdaughters, I am not shooting to have them see their mom as I see their mom--I have such a skewed perspective, and I am an adult.  I am looking to support them in feeling good being who they are and teaching skills needed to maintain your own sense of self when conflict or disagreement occur.

Each of my SD's at each age have needed different things.  My older SD (now 14) is incredibly enmeshed with BPD mom, so with here I have been striving to 1) help her recognize her feelings and to validate them, even when she is angry with me or having a feeling that is hard for me to hear--in fact, especially then, to help her feel like being angry is safe and that there are ways to express anger that build a relationship rather than endanger it; 2) help her to be able to love someone while having a boundary, to get to know what that feels like.  I imagine at some point she will need to un-enmesh a bit, and I think this will help; and 3) I have tried to help her have empathy for her mom, as she tends to identify so totally with mom's feelings that she judges mom as bad in the same way mom judges herself, only she loves mommy so much she just tries to hide all of who mom is from other people.  I would love some day to show her that I actually think her mom is okay as is, but that she is just really hard to relate to because she is so busy obfuscating everything that it is impossible to have a "real" conversation with her... .but tho hard, mom came by all this bad behavior honestly, through horrible abuse.  She is doing her best.  Empathy is important, because it allows for separateness and love to happen at the same time, and then creates a model for how to relate to our own difficulties and faults.  I have also talked to the kids about how I see their mom--not often, and at a price of their anger, but I have felt it necessary at times to say, "Your mom has a really hard time with painful feelings.  We all have different levels of comfort with pain, and when it is too much we often blame other people, trying to put that bad feeling out of our body and on someone else.  You can learn how to be tolerant of painful feelings, and to let them out in ways that do not hurt anyone, including you." 

For SD10, it is a totally different story.  She is the "bad" child in BPDmom's mind.  It is so painful to hear SD10 get blamed by mom all the time.  It is so overwhelming to see how much she loves her mom, how little that is returned.  With her, my focus is on her knowing I love her, daddy loves her, and also that me loving her does not make her good, me being angry does not make her bad.  These are feelings inside of me, and she has feelings inside of her.  She is not enmeshed with mom, and has fearlessly loved all her parents, even her stepmom, which has brought the wrath of BPD mom on her.  So I just try to be there for her as much as possible, having special alone time with her, making sure daddy has special time with her.  Not shaming her.  What is particularly painful is how much she is like her mom.  Loving this child (who came into my home when she was just 3) really helps me to imagine her mom without all the abuse and mental illness.  When SD10 gets upset and imitates mom's most challenging qualities, I make very sure not to shame her or make her wrong, but to tell her how it feels being me when she does that.  I ask her to do it in a way that feels good to her AND to me.  And she really hears me, and she changes, not because mom is weird, but because she sees how it feels to another person, and does not want to hurt other people. 

So I think that is what I would say--shorthand like "weird" does not always say what needs to be said.  I think the validating you did was great, but I think more important than labeling it "weird" is identifying "how would you have done that differently?"  I also think for me it has been better to share my feelings, rather than making mom wrong.  So when SD10 said she was afraid of mommy, I said, "Sometimes I feel afraid, too.  What scares you?"  That lets her know that she is not the only one who feels that way.  This kind of thing is risky, as it is very scary to think of mom or dad as scary or different, and as a stepmom, the kids feel less good about me in the moment when something hard is being discussed.  But in the long run, it has made us very close, because they know they can trust me.  I also am VERY sparing in talking about this kind of thing, and it has always been when the kids initiate it, tho DH does initiate some hard conversations. 

I think it is important to recognize that when mom or dad speaks ill of the other parent, it places the child in a loyalty bind, where they have to choose one of two people they love, rather than getting to love both.  At the same time, when a child knows something strange is happening with a parent and it is never discussed, that can be deeply confusing and leave a child with few options for understanding what is happening.  With compassion, it is possible to occasionally talk about what is happening with the disordered parent in a loving way that explains what is confusing.  I think it is so much more safe feeling to model that I can be angry with BPDmom and still care about her well being, than it is to make her into the bad, weird, other person... .as a stepmom, I would totally destroy my relationship with the kids if I did this--but as a bio parent, you risk the child's sense of well being and self esteem. 

Finally, I think it is okay to talk about some boundaries, particularly as the kids get older.  We make very clear to the kids that they NEVER have to get in the car with ANYONE who is intoxicated, and they can always call us and we will come get them if they need that.  We make clear violence is never a good way to get what you want.  But these are general issues, not "your mom is violent, do not be like that!"  But the real boundaries are your own.  The power the other parent has is to try to get more custody, if your concerns are serious.  We tried and failed, but DH really preferred 50/50 if only mom was less difficult. We have tried to call the police when mom is drunk and driving, it has never been effective.  And I think for me it is important to know what power we have... .and when that is not enough to change things, I think it is important to know that you just have to live with what is, not to try to change how the kids see their other parent.  I think it is important to validate and respect how the kids feel about their disordered parent, that person who is so hard for others to really love over the long term.  But loving mommy or daddy does not have to mean not loving yourself.  So I think my solution is to help the kids be stronger.