Will discuss break-up tonight

[ziniztar]

Just wanted to let you know... I'm going to break up tonight.

He has three other options:

-   Me joining his T session.

-   Him joining my T session. 

-   A break, to give each other (him... ) some space and time to think about what he wants without pressure, without dating others.

If he does not want to commit to either of those three choices, I will end it tonight. I've really reached a line here.

As I assume and hope we won’t break up, I’m still posting it here. If we end up breaking up I’ll change to the Leaving board.

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[enlighten me]

Hi ziniztar

I went for the third option before I knew about BPD. I told my ex that I was moving out so that we would have the space to work on our relationship without me around as I seemed to be the cause of all the problems.

She took this as I was finishing with her. So we are now split up without either one of us having said it officially.

I realise now that she took it for me abandoning her and went into full on defence mode.

Good luck. I hope you get the outcome you want.

[ziniztar]

Thanks.

Sorry to read about your state of limbo...

What are you doing about your situation?

Do you want it to work? 

I could see why leaving is seen as abandonment. I hope me allowing discussion and preparing him for it will give him the idea he has a choice. I'd really rather not end it, and I will make sure he knows, but he should also know I will if he does not commit to any of the other options, or else he'll think he'll get away with everything. He was probably testing my limits as he has repeatedly said he really values my "power to adapt and accept". A few weeks ago he mentioned to my parents that he is seeing I'm changing that as I'm starting to think of myself. I guess he needed to know how far he could go.

[enlighten me]

Theres no state of limbo. We are over even though it was never officially said.

To be honest I am relieved. As soon as I moved out it was like a weight being lifted from me. I am so much more relaxed from not having to walk on eggshells all day. Im back to my happy smiley old self. My sons from a previous marriage are happy aswell. They hated her as they couldn't stand the way she always spoke to me.

I was just wanting to warn you that moving out will be seen as abandoning them no matter how much you try to reassure them. After all you have abandoned them. Not in the way that you and I see it but bearing in mind that just going to the shop without them can bring on abandonment fears so actually packing your bags will be that times 1000/

[ziniztar]

Thanks. I know. I've got abandonment issues myself and hate it when he goes to the store without me. So I know the drill. But we're both in therapy... he is a little less disorganized/dysregulated than a year ago, so I hope he can deal with it. We'll see.

Happy to read you're your own smiley self .

[123Phoebe]

Just wanted to let you know... I'm going to break up tonight.

He has three other options:

-   Me joining his T session.

-   Him joining my T session. 

-   A break, to give each other (him... ) some space and time to think about what he wants without pressure, without dating others.

If he does not want to commit to either of those three choices, I will end it tonight. I've really reached a line here.



As I assume and hope we won’t break up, I’m still posting it here. If we end up breaking up I’ll change to the Leaving board.

Zinizstar, can you tell us what happened to reach this line?  What's changed from a week or so ago?

[sweetheart]

Hello ziniztar,

I hope you get the outcome you want 

I too am interested in what got you to this point now.

[ziniztar]

Yeah.

Many changes.

- new assignment at work, more demanding, more reason to analyze what is important to me

- he cannot come to my birthday as he was too late asking a leave, won't apologize or show empathy for me, BIG issue for me

- he has been increasingly depressed and negative in the last 2 months

- he decided to start 2 new hobbies (even less time for me) without discussing it with me

- he has declined or deleted the few happy positive events we had planned in the upcoming months

I need a change in how things are going to put up with it. I am not married to him, do not have kids, so there are no vows standing in my way. I am in therapy and making progress, and slowly realizing there are r/s that are a lot easier than this. I don't WANT to give up on him, but I need more improvement or hope to continue.

[ziniztar]

He won't allow to see me. He says 'You're making the decision, not me. I will not be put under pressure.' If I ask him if he wants to continue, no answer.

I won't allow him to 'get away' with it by me making the decision when we're not in the same room. If we're not actually seeing each other and I'm not hearing he is not willing to keep me, I won't make the decision.

I've said him I will respect his need not to be pressured and that I will take this as an option 1) rest. He can call me if he wants to talk, but I've made him clear I can't continue the way we're doing it now. There is too much negative, not enough positive experiences. I'm young and have no kids (and don't even know if I want to have them with him). I feel extremely unimportant and dependent on his choices AGAIN, but will discuss that with my T on Monday.

[123Phoebe]

I won't allow him to 'get away' with it by me making the decision when we're not in the same room. If we're not actually seeing each other and I'm not hearing he is not willing to keep me, I won't make the decision.

Why not?  Because you're not in the same room when the decision is made?  What about all the other reasons that you've mentioned?  Your reasons?

It's okay if you're not ready to end the relationship.  It's okay if you are.  The thing I think a lot of us get stuck on when facing something like this, is compliance from our pwBPD.  More than likely we're not going to get it, so we have to act in our own best interest.

I couldn't handle it either, ziniztar, it was too much for me.  I didn't tell him that he needs to do this that and the other to keep me, I detached from him and attached to myself with all my might.  He wasn't acting (the way I thought he should) if we were in a relationship, so I acted like a person that wasn't in that kind of a relationship with him.  I didn't pretend or throw down ultimatums, I made other plans and got busy living my life.  No pressure.  He felt it.  He felt the release and came back.  It was validating for him, soothing, he felt free.  So did I!  I didn't know this at the time, that's not why I did it.  I did it because that's how I felt, like we weren't even in a relationship.  Yuck.  Here I was obsessing over a man that (I felt) could care less if I came or went?  Nuh uh.  I won't chase.  If I can't feel his interest and desire, I want no part of it.

I am truly sorry you're experiencing this right now, it's horrid and awful.  It might be different for you and your guy...   For mine... .ultimatums or options?  If he doesn't feel in total control of his decisions, I might as well kiss him goodbye.  He's not going to answer to anybody, except himself.  And the more I pushed for certain things (in my own ways... .), the further I pushed him away.

Detach from him and attach to yourself, is my very best advice   You might be surprised at how well you both feel

[ziniztar]

Thanks. That helped. I know all this, I know the ultimatum doesn't work. He reacts exactly the way you described. But he kept disappointing me and I got hurt over and over again. I know that I let this happen all the time.

I don't think I've come to grips with expecting nothing from him. And I don't know if I want to. My T mentioned he should be annoyed by me more often, and that it would probably explode heavily, or else I am enabling his cooping mechanisms. This is me setting a boundary, not in a very good way I get that, but I couldn't do 'nothing' anymore.

I find it strange he didn't say 'ok pack your stuff'.

I know he does not want to make the decision.

I'll try and do what you say. Get colder. Pretend there's nothing really left.

I just hope this is a wake-up call for him.

[123Phoebe]

Pretend there's nothing really left.

I just hope this is a wake-up call for him.

Pretending won't work, you have to mean it and not care anymore if it wakes him up.  Have you had it with him and his ways?

[ziniztar]

I have really had it with him not choosing me to spend time with. To be on the bottom of his priority list. Of not being able to maturely work towards solutions. I've had it with his constant negativity and victimized behavior. He keeps repeating how other people are hurting him and treating him like a doormat. Ugh. Grow some balls.

[formflier]

He won't allow to see me. He says 'You're making the decision, not me. I will not be put under pressure.' If I ask him if he wants to continue, no answer.

I won't allow him to 'get away' with it by me making the decision when we're not in the same room. If we're not actually seeing each other and I'm not hearing he is not willing to keep me, I won't make the decision.

I've said him I will respect his need not to be pressured and that I will take this as an option 1) rest. He can call me if he wants to talk, but I've made him clear I can't continue the way we're doing it now. There is too much negative, not enough positive experiences. I'm young and have no kids (and don't even know if I want to have them with him). I feel extremely unimportant and dependent on his choices AGAIN, but will discuss that with my T on Monday.

One thing to consider.  You are the more emotionally healthy one... .so... .he may never make a decision.

What then?

If you are depending on him to make a decision... .that is "unempowering" to you.  I may have just made up a word... . 

Anyway... .one thing to consider is to lay out options... .ask for a decision.  If one doesn't come let him know you will be making a decision in a few days (or some period of time).  Then make it.

Thoughts? 

Choices are empowering.  Sounds like you are at the point where you are going to make some.

Wishing you the best... .let us know how  it goes.  We are all rooting for you!     

[ziniztar]

Thanks formflier.

He said he still couldnt believe I was forcing options on him. "You know what you got into". Wow. Really, wow.

I told him to disregard the ultimatum.

Which he of course didnt understand but was ok with.

I told that it doesnt change anything.

That I still cant continue like this, I just realized I cant force him to make a choice, so the change should be in me.

Left my private cell at home.

One thing is that it shouldnt affect my work.

I'll see what happens if my focus completely shifts from him or us, to me.

It's the last thing I will try before ending it.

[Theo41]

You know, it's interesting to me that nobody has mentioned charming. What happens typically is that the BPD will pull out all the stops to make sure you don't leave or to suck u back in. This can include begging, pleading, threatening of all kinds including suicide,etc. They are pathologically fearful of abandonment. The recommended most effective way to leave is to make careful prep and then be gone with no forwarding address, etc.

This is consistent with my experience, as I have tried unsuccessfully to leave 2-3 times when reasonable demands (go to therapy and take ur meds) are not positively responded to.

I'm still in the relationship. Fortunately there r positive attributes that offset the bd behavior. Theo

[Theo41]

Addendum : did not mean to use the word "charming" Don't  know where that came from except that the site does not accept the term used in SWOE because it makes use of the name of a prominent vacuum cleaner that's also a president of the last century. In the past they have converted the expression to "recycling ". In any event, they do NOT accept that we want to leave (and have a right to ) and then go about making sure they defeat our  efforts. Theo

[waverider]

Being left in limbo awaiting their response is a common problem and can leave you frustrated and uncertain.

If you are going to make bounardaries/decisions, the default should be you take action not waiting for him to make a choice. For example, if 1 or 2 dont happen then you are going to do 3. In other words 3 is your default you dont have to choose it, he has to take action to prevent it. That is how you force him to make a decision

[formflier]

Being left in limbo awaiting their response is a common problem and can leave you frustrated and uncertain.

If you are going to make bounardaries/decisions, the default should be you take action not waiting for him to make a choice. For example, if 1 or 2 dont happen then you are going to do 3. In other words 3 is your default you dont have to choose it, he has to take action to prevent it. That is how you force him to make a decision

Thanks waverider... .a much better way of saying what I was trying to say.

[ziniztar]

Being left in limbo awaiting their response is a common problem and can leave you frustrated and uncertain.

If you are going to make bounardaries/decisions, the default should be you take action not waiting for him to make a choice. For example, if 1 or 2 dont happen then you are going to do 3. In other words 3 is your default you dont have to choose it, he has to take action to prevent it. That is how you force him to make a decision

I get this. The thing is, I did this. I told him I would get back from work and calmly discuss four options. 3 of them were in his hands, the last one would be to break-up if he wasn't able to commit to the other ones.

I made a mistake there as I know I don't want to end things without seeing each other. And he blocked us seeing each other. I could have gone to his house but would have ruined my next workday and I am in a new assignment. So I chose not to go there, not to cause any drama, and not to break-up ( as he was not willing to commit to the first three choices).

I guess my final option wasn't well enough thought through.

I understand the dynamics of not following through with threats but I'm not sure this really was one. I never said I would break-up if he didn't go through with the first three. I only mentioned him I can't continue like this anymore so something has to change.

Theo you are right about the pleading and begging you to stay, I've heard that from a lot of people. Unfortunately my dBPDbf is a bit different when it comes to spending time together, he portrays (!) himself to be more distant than needy. His main coping mechanism is to fill his time with things that distract him from his feelings and I am mostly the one somewhere at the bottom of the list, as I evoke a lot of difficult feelings in him. That really has to change. As Phoebe mentioned, this is not what I call a relationship, hell it really even isn't based no other people's standards.

On the boundary and healthy relationship page I read something about feeling overresponsible for someone else's feelings. So:

<------><------> healthy relationship with some overlapping relational values up for discussion (interdependant)

<---------><---> from the left side: over responsible for someone else's feelings, well-being, responsibilities

What Phoebe advised is (I think, correct me if I'm wrong) explaining this movement from my side:

<------>     <---> me getting back into a "healthy" involvement, leaving him room to find out... .

• that he is responsible for the responsibilities in the void



• that he is responsible for his well-being in the void



• that he is responsible for his feelings in the void (that will be most tough to crack)



• if he wants to be close to me

That last one really is something he can't find out unless I step back.

Let's say if we have 20% of the week to spend together (we live apart, different work schedules etc)

Now I always anxiously keep those potential 20% available so we can be together

If he wants to do something else in those 20%, and does, I feel hurt, abandoned and he feels like it is never enough for me. He knows that I will always be there for the left-over percentage of time because I am afraid to lose my time with him.

Well, that is going to change. If I stop enabling his coping mechanism (this could be many things of course, substance abuse is a good example) he is forced to find other (and I hope healthier) ways. I will stop blocking that 20% of the week. It will...

• free me from always wanting to know his work schedule so I can adapt to it, releasing pressure on his side to have to know it



• free me to do whatever the hell I want with my time, making me more happy and myself again, releasing pressure on his side that being with him has made me depressed and he is making me unhappy



• free me of the feeling of being abandoned, because we will only see each other if we both agree to it, not because I assume we will be

And I can think of a lot more possibilities there.

I realized this week that as long as I don't give him space to find out if he wants to be with me, I cannot be mad at him for getting the feeling he doesn't want to be with me when he is. Because I didn't give him room to find out, I'm always there. And even though that time is limited and compared to 'normal'   relationships still not a lot of time, and I am fully right to expect it... it's not helping me in this relationship.

1 question for Phoebe: how did you react when he started to crawl back? With welcoming arms, or did you still not really care?

[123Phoebe]

1 question for Phoebe: how did you react when he started to crawl back? With welcoming arms, or did you still not really care?

It really wasn't either one, or maybe it was both?  I reset the relationship according to my values, while taking his into consideration.

I had jumped out of the frying pan and into the fire; recently divorced when we met.  Expecting him to act the way my husband didn't.  I was comparing him to someone without really getting to know him.  It was a convoluted crazy mess, we didn't have a foundation.  So, I started building one.

If he asked me to do something in ample time (a date!) and I wanted to go, I'd go.  If he asked me to come over to his house last minute, I'd decline; have other plans!  Going to paint my toenails   Meeting a friend for coffee.  Long day at work and tired, wish I had known earlier... .  That sort of thing. 

Started from scratch.

I had to walk the talk.  If I want to be treated with respect, I have to respect myself.

I took the focus off of him and really began living my life, not just talking about it how good it would be if he would... .

Does that help?

[ziniztar]

Does that help?

My toenails will shine as never before. 

[ziniztar]

Phoebe

I asked him if he wanted to go out for lunch tomorrow as I have to pick up our car. And that declining was ok too. We haven't spoken in the past few days and it made me feel super good.

He replied "so no more choices? no more options?"

"no, it was not right of me to pressure you in such a way"

"I'm not hungry"  

I texted "okee" and nothing else. Did not let him know I was hurt, he was probably poking to see if I would lash out again.

Yet here I am, again, crying my balls out.

I find his way of conflict-resolving so incredibly immature and hurtful. It's not something I see myself doing for another x years. I feel like I deserve someone who can at least be more considerate and mature. I have enough issues myself to deal with, why would I continue in an unhealthy relationship? I'll work my way out of my own issues and then get on with someone healthier.

Why did you go through the whole re-building process? Why did you stay?

[formflier]

Phoebe

I asked him if he wanted to go out for lunch tomorrow as I have to pick up our car. And that declining was ok too. We haven't spoken in the past few days and it made me feel super good.

He replied "so no more choices? no more options?"

"no, it was not right of me to pressure you in such a way"

"I'm not hungry"  

I texted "okee" and nothing else. Did not let him know I was hurt, he was probably poking to see if I would lash out again.

Yet here I am, again, crying my balls out.

I find his way of conflict-resolving so incredibly immature and hurtful. It's not something I see myself doing for another x years. I feel like I deserve someone who can at least be more considerate and mature. I have enough issues myself to deal with, why would I continue in an unhealthy relationship? I'll work my way out of my own issues and then get on with someone healthier.

Why did you go through the whole re-building process? Why did you stay?

Ultimately the reason to stay is that we make a choice... .

Ziniztar,

You are doing great work on this... .I can see you work on this... .looking at it from many different angles.  It's obvious that you are thinking about it... and also feeling your emotions.

Keep up the good work... .

Because ultimately you will make a choice... .

And we are here to support you!  

[ziniztar]

You are doing great work on this... .I can see you work on this... .looking at it from many different angles.  It's obvious that you are thinking about it... and also feeling your emotions.

Thanks formflier. Will talk to T on Monday how to deal with that hurtful 'making up'. It's one of the biggest thorns in my eyes, I feel I want to make-up and get pushed away even further.

I've been snooping at the Leaving board and I realize that if I want to break things effectively with him I need to detach first, or else we will probably end up in endless cycles or it will take me a lot more time to recover. So why not do it while we're still in the r/s. I haven't felt so excited about the weekend in months, simply because I have planned to do things with friends and other stuff I did when I was single, instead of traveling to his city because he did not make an effort to come to me during the week, and then waiting until he gets back from work.

Because he's been such an ass these last two months, nearly all empathy for him and his situation has flown out of the window. I deserve to be treated with respect. If we're together I can do this better and will bite off "don't take it out on me" and repeat it if he is continuing, but when we're discussing intimacy/closeness/when to see each other, I get hugely triggered.

A few years ago if he would have said something about my appearance I would have listened to him and thought "O no I will loose him if I don't change this shirt or loose more weight." That is completely gone because I have accepted my weight swings for what they are and feel worthy even when I'm in my peaks. I experienced how I was able to change this perception in my head. It's about time I change this whole abandonment thing, too.  Will change avatar into something less nice, more perky. Woo.  

[formflier]

You are doing great work on this... .I can see you work on this... .looking at it from many different angles.  It's obvious that you are thinking about it... and also feeling your emotions.

Thanks formflier. Will talk to T on Monday how to deal with that hurtful 'making up'. It's one of the biggest thorns in my eyes, I feel I want to make-up and get pushed away even further.

I've been snooping at the Leaving board and I realize that if I want to break things effectively with him I need to detach first, or else we will probably end up in endless cycles or it will take me a lot more time to recover. So why not do it while we're still in the r/s. I haven't felt so excited about the weekend in months, simply because I have planned to do things with friends and other stuff I did when I was single, instead of traveling to his city because he did not make an effort to come to me during the week, and then waiting until he gets back from work.

Because he's been such an ass these last two months, nearly all empathy for him and his situation has flown out of the window. I deserve to be treated with respect. If we're together I can do this better and will bite off "don't take it out on me" and repeat it if he is continuing, but when we're discussing intimacy/closeness/when to see each other, I get hugely triggered.

A few years ago if he would have said something about my appearance I would have listened to him and thought "O no I will loose him if I don't change this shirt or loose more weight." That is completely gone because I have accepted my weight swings for what they are and feel worthy even when I'm in my peaks. I experienced how I was able to change this perception in my head. It's about time I change this whole abandonment thing, too.  Will change avatar into something less nice, more perky. Woo.  

Detachment... .is something that even people on the staying board need to think about.  Sometimes you are too close... .to enmeshed... .to dependent. 

What that looks like for each person and for each couple could be different. 

You are thinking on the right track!

[123Phoebe]

Phoebe

Why did you go through the whole re-building process? Why did you stay?

Wilma!

Because I was crazy about him and still am!  I also knew deep down that I have issues, it wasn't only him; we carry around matching luggage

I repeat myself so much on this board , anyway, here goes again... .

Before I was ready to get divorced, I asked myself a question:  Would I go out on a first date with husband, knowing everything I know about him?  The answer was NO!  So, why stay married to a man I wouldn't even go on a date with?

When I asked myself the same question about bf, the answer was and still is a resounding YES!  No hesitation whatsoever.  :)o I get PO'd at him?  Sure do!  Am I still crazy about him?  Sure am!  Will our relationship withstand the test of time?  I have absolutely no idea and it's okay.

As far as asking him to do things?  I would only ask if I was truly okay with the answer, didn't want to set myself up for rejection.  Now I am okay with his answer (because I won't reject myself), but know him a lot better than before, so some things I just don't ask because I already know the answer will be no, so why bother?  He knows me well enough to feel free to ask if he can come along.

I had to change a lot about myself, it needed to be done.

Detachment... .is something that even people on the staying board need to think about.  Sometimes you are too close... .to enmeshed... .to dependent. 

What that looks like for each person and for each couple could be different. 

You are thinking on the right track!

Formflier knows his stuff!  The Detachment Lessons are GREAT for Staying in the relationship

[ziniztar]

When I asked myself the same question about bf, the answer was and still is a resounding YES!  No hesitation whatsoever.  :)o I get PO'd at him?  Sure do!  Am I still crazy about him?  Sure am!  Will our relationship withstand the test of time?  I have absolutely no idea and it's okay.

Ok well when I think of this question I see him with his genuine smile (he has a few different ones), laughing out loud, energetic, making me laugh, having dinner together. YES.

Those ADHD medicins did not make him any more delightful either. His best friend distanced herself from him a few weeks ago because she did not get any energy from him anymore. It's not just me. Things have really changed. He takes them to prepare for an important test he needs to proceed in his career, but of course his borderline insecurities are preventing him now from studying and taking the test. I mentioned the difference (calmly) last weekend and he listened. The monday after he told me he had applied for the test in October. I now realize his fear of losing me and his best friends over the changes in him due to medication, is probably bigger than his fear of failure. That's a good thing.

As far as asking him to do things?  I would only ask if I was truly okay with the answer, didn't want to set myself up for rejection.  Now I am okay with his answer (because I won't reject myself), but know him a lot better than before, so some things I just don't ask because I already know the answer will be no, so why bother?  He knows me well enough to feel free to ask if he can come along.

Funny, now you say it like this it makes a lot of sense. A few weeks ago we were at his apartment and I love eating on the balcony if the whether is good. Before knowing I was (wrongly) adapting so much I would ask him 'balcony or inside?' knowing that he would want to sit inside and I'd be bummed. Then I would whine a little that I want to go outside and he would cave in or we'd get into a fight that things always have to be his way.

A few weeks ago I realized the urge to ask him and just decided to sit outside. If he decided to sit in - fine, then we'll eat separately, but I want to be outside. He followed me outside without hesitation. Wasn't there for the entire hour I was, but still.  

Detachment... .is something that even people on the staying board need to think about.  Sometimes you are too close... .to enmeshed... .to dependent.  

What that looks like for each person and for each couple could be different.  

You are thinking on the right track!

Thanks, to both of you  , thanks for following me throughout, it helps. I know I'm on the right track so the range of uncomfortable feelings of separation and not knowing if I'm able to do all this, are a little easier to handle. Yabbadabbadoo.

[ziniztar]

It’s so hurtful to see how everything is collapsing for him.

I feel quite sure of my own path now so I don’t feel responsible – that’s a new. Yet it does touch me.

I talked to his best friend today. She thinks he will never change.

I tried discussing things with his mother and father yet they feel he is simply something they have to ‘deal’ with. They expressed that nothing changed for them after the diagnosis.

I still don’t get why people, caring for someone else who is independently & actively going to therapy, would not support someone else.

Of course I understand (as I have been forced to learn this in the past months) that there is a line as to how you can support a pwBPD in therapy.

Yet breaking contact? Knowing your all-time best friend has a severe illness and is working on it?

People have had to deal with him for a lot longer than I have and are not in love, I get it... but still.

I don’t feel I’m the savior, I think he will manage without me as well. He is motivated to go to therapy even when he is at his worst.

But it troubles me that people remove themselves from people in need this quickly.

Has anyone else had similar experiences?

[123Phoebe]

As far as asking him to do things?  I would only ask if I was truly okay with the answer, didn't want to set myself up for rejection.  Now I am okay with his answer (because I won't reject myself), but know him a lot better than before, so some things I just don't ask because I already know the answer will be no, so why bother?  He knows me well enough to feel free to ask if he can come along.

Funny, now you say it like this it makes a lot of sense. A few weeks ago we were at his apartment and I love eating on the balcony if the whether is good. Before knowing I was (wrongly) adapting so much I would ask him 'balcony or inside?' knowing that he would want to sit inside and I'd be bummed. Then I would whine a little that I want to go outside and he would cave in or we'd get into a fight that things always have to be his way.

A few weeks ago I realized the urge to ask him and just decided to sit outside. If he decided to sit in - fine, then we'll eat separately, but I want to be outside. He followed me outside without hesitation. Wasn't there for the entire hour I was, but still.  

See how well this works, when you believe in your right to be you?

That's awesome, zinizstar!  When we argue with them over our right to be ourselves, it's as though we're asking them for permission, turning them into an authority over us.  We're not their authority either, so sometimes we might find ourselves sitting alone.  It's a beautiful world out there... . Then I get to tell him about/discuss all the different birds I've seen or the new restaurant that looks interesting etc... . Things that pertain to me and quite possibly for us in the future

[waverider]

Once we truly understand our right to be us, it makes easier to accept they have a right to be them, no matter how dysfunctional that may be. Acceptance is across the board

[PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES]

PLEASE - NO RUN MESSAGES This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members may appear frustrated but they are here for constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[waverider]

It’s so hurtful to see how everything is collapsing for him.

I feel quite sure of my own path now so I don’t feel responsible – that’s a new. Yet it does touch me.

This has probably been their life's story. The difference is that when we step away it suddenly becomes obvious how little support they get from others and why they are so dependent on us. They are wobbling through life without safety nets. a scary way to live

[ziniztar]

And then he admitted cheating on me over The weekend.

The one real boundary I thought I had and here am I in his bed not willing to break things. I feel so Incredibly weak.

when I talk about quitting he wants to do everything he can do to get me back

When I talk about giving it a go he talks about how it could never work

I don't think either of us has ever been this confused and torn

[formflier]

And then he admitted cheating on me over The weekend.

The one real boundary I thought I had and here am I in his bed not willing to break things. I feel so Incredibly weak.

when I talk about quitting he wants to do everything he can do to get me back

When I talk about giving it a go he talks about how it could never work

I don't think either of us has ever been this confused and torn

Ziniztar,

I'll say it again... .you are doing some heavy work!  I commend you for the work and thought you are putting into this decision.

These things don't usually get wrapped up in a nice smooth straight line from start to finish (finish being a decision).

We're all rooting for you!   

[ziniztar]

Thanks. I took all my stuff. Asked my key back. Told him he has 1 chance.

He has to pick up his stuff this Saturday. Everything needs to be in order as if we were splitting up.

He can propose something to me on Saturday.

I’ve proposed I want to go back to dating, building things up from the very beginning.

He has to conquer me again, I will not go to his city or place unless I feel like it and feel like he deserves it.

He is extremely sad, anxious, hurt, wounded when I look at him.

When we’re not in the same room, I think the object constancy kicks in.

He forgets.

So in all honesty,  I think he won’t follow through.

If he has not learnt anything and is persisting his self-destructive behavior he will not pick up his stuff.

He will let it pass, or text me that he can’t make it. Then it really ends there.

It’s the only thing I was willing to offer.

Felt sick to my stomach this morning, was throwing up in the train without having eaten anything.  

[formflier]

 

   

I'm very proud of you for taking your personal feeling and convictions and putting them into action.

You are showing your strength

We are all rooting for you!

[123Phoebe]

 

Relationships can be so ugh!; staying, leaving, in between... .

How do you plan to take care of yourself this week?  Can you keep your focus on that and not on what he might/might not do?  Keep the focus on yourself and your own self care? 

Be kind to you... .

[ziniztar]

     

I'm very proud of you for taking your personal feeling and convictions and putting them into action.

Thanks, formflier. I got to a point where I had discussed going to his town on Friday. I got sick of myself when I realized what I was doing: he cheated on me and I am travelling to his city - again - to discuss a break-up AFTER fighting, spending the night and then waiting a whole week? Nu-uh.

He called me to discuss the previous night. It was a chaos, a storm, he said he couldn't talk to anyone about it and he knew it was weird to talk to me. I smashed his birthday present out of anger which I regret a little :'(. Ripped books, photo's, cards. Deleted everything from the scene, deleted our photos from Facebook. And then minutes later we were discussing possible options on how to stay together. It flipped back and forth in very extreme ways.

Relationships can be so ugh!; staying, leaving, in between... .

How do you plan to take care of yourself this week?  Can you keep your focus on that and not on what he might/might not do?  Keep the focus on yourself and your own self care?  

Be kind to you... .

Yeah ok. I noticed my post was filled with sentences started with 'he'.

Well,

I have called my T to meet up to discuss what

I want out of this relationship in the future.

I will focus on work this week.

I am having multiple dinners with friends.

I have NOT canceled on a friend but requested her to come to me and not discuss him.

I have planned a wine festival on Saturday and told him he is allowed   to join. He probably won't, but I don't care. I am going with other friends either way.

I have planned a SAUNA day on Sunday.

[waverider]

You forgot one:

I love myself and am worth looking after

[123Phoebe]

I have called my T to meet up to discuss what

I want out of this relationship in the future.

I will focus on work this week.

I am having multiple dinners with friends.

I have NOT canceled on a friend but requested her to come to me and not discuss him.

I have planned a wine festival on Saturday and told him he is allowed   to join. He probably won't, but I don't care. I am going with other friends either way.

I have planned a SAUNA day on Sunday.

   

Wow, you do indeed know how to take care of yourself  Go for it, do it, yay you!

You forgot one:

I love myself and am worth looking after

 

[ziniztar]

You forgot one:

I love myself and am worth looking after

Aaah I really did miss that one. I woke up because I was dreaming about him and the emotion linked to it wakes me up, I have that a lot. I felt really anxious about getting him back, like a small abandoned child crying and yearning for someone to stay. That very hopeless, powerless feeling.

That line, I am worth looking after, seems to be the antidote for that feeling. It got me back on track where I wanted to be: thinking about what I need in order to potentially fix what he broke.

Thanks  

[ziniztar]

So...

I will propose to him how I think we should move forward.

I think it’s important I come up with an idea so I won’t react too much to what he has to say (i.e. “I have no idea” or “I will never work”).

My initial idea was to start dating again: no expectations about when and how much we see each other.

His response was that he thinks it’s a good suggestion, but does not see how that could work. We already know each other and “When you date you show your best side, I can’t do that anymore. On top of that I feel so unhappy these days, I don’t see how I could pretend to happily date and do “fun” stuff.”

Then I noticed: what I want is to rebuild trust and respect. And: I don’t want to not see him for weeks (a little bit afraid of the whole object consistency thing and afraid he will relapse into cheating). I also don’t want to be dependent on his time schedule again. He already mentioned “I don’t see that happening in the upcoming weeks”.

So… I figured I want to propose this:

No dating, but fixed times to see each other.

Tuesday nights he comes to my city and he stays the night.  

Saturdays we get lunch and do some shopping in his city. I won’t stay there for sleep-overs until I want to.

Outside of those timeslots: we can propose each other ideas and see if it fits both our schedules.

If he cannot make it on Tuesdays or Saturdays, he kindly cancels the date with respect for me and my time.

If that works for a few weeks, we can start to bargain a bit more.

Any thoughts? Will also discuss with T tomorrow but I'd like your inputs as well .

[enlighten me]

The only way this can work in my opinion is if you are ok with the idea of an open relationship.

By not dating you have left the door wide open for him to see who he wants. There is no guilt attached for him as he's not in a relationship.

If you are ok with it being an open relationship then good for you. Personally if I was meeting up with someone like you suggest it would feel more like a booty call than a relationship.

I couldn't do it though. I can happily commit to someone but I don't think it would ever be possible for me to share them if I had true feelings for them. If I was happy to share them then obviously I don't think that much of them.

What you need to ask yourself is why you are wanting to do this. Is it because you want them in your life no matter what but cant live with all the day to day drama?

[ziniztar]

Hi enlighten me,

I think we mean different things when we say dating .

I do mean dating but in a very structured way. I actually even mean being in a relationship, but in a very structured way. I have no intention whatsoever to allow an open relationship or to allow another episode of cheating. What I am trying to do is recreate the way we treat each other, in order to prevent the cheating. I want to teach him how to treat me, as I have somewhat taught him that my needs and wishes don’t matter in the r/s. That has to end.

He has no intention to cheat again as he has experience the shame, guilt, rages, whatever... He does not ask for an open relationship.

I think I want to allow him 1 chance to overcome this as cheating is a part of acting out / borderline.

I know I can’t control his activities and we will slowly have to build trust again.

If he’s not up for it, then it will end. I also want to believe him if he says he wants to commit now we are renegotiating terms.

Why do you think an open relationship is the only way? If somebody lies to you one time they lie to you forever?

I like to think that people are able to change as long as they’re motivated.

[enlighten me]

By reading what you said I tried to see it from the position of what my exs would have made of it. To me it cam across as more of a no strings attached deal than a structured relationship.

The reason I mentioned open relationships is that in some ways I think its the only way a BPD can remain happy.

Here is my train of thought so I would appreciate it if you let me know what you think.

A person with BPD wants to be loved and fears abandonment. The problem is that they cannot control their emotions so need a way to vent. They do this by arguing, disapeering, cheeting etc etc. Whatever the strange behaviour is it is because they are being overwhelmed by something.

By having this need to vent and not being able to do so the pressure builds up until something burst. They either suddenly end it or cheat.

If they cheat then they have the additional pressure of guilt. By having an open relationship they can go off and vent but not have the guilt.

Now for my scienctific theory behind it. Non of this I have proof of but it seems to make sense to me.

Say a person suffering from BPD has a genetic deformity that when triggered causes them to have high levels of cortisol in their system. Because they are so sensitive to fear then cortisol is being produced in a lot less stressful situations than it normally would. High levels of cortisol affect all other hormones as it acts as a endocrine suppressor. Oxytocin is released to calm down the cortisol levels but is being blocked so it builds up (This could be why when enraged a BPDs eyes dilate so much). Oxytocin is the hormone that bonds people together so even though we are being yelled at we are bonding to them more. High cortisol leads to most of the symptoms of BPD. The problem with prolonged high cortisol levels is that it causes serious illness such as brittle bones and a number of others.

Is it not possible that these breaks from us are caused by an unknown urge to lower these cortisol levels before serious damage is done. The fact that by leaving us or cheating on us these levels lower and permanent damage is avoided would be purely subconscious to them. Its a bit like when a pregnant woman craves something. She doesn't realise that theres a deficiency of say potassium she just knows she wants to eat bananas.

Going back to the oxytocin this could be the reason BPD relationships are so hard to break. After all it is the hormone that forms the mother baby bond. One of the strongest emotional bonds ever.

As I say the science side is pure speculation on my behalf but there is a lot of evidence that has led me to believe this. Im sure someone more qualified such as Skip could correct my theory.

[ziniztar]

Hey, are you hijacking my thread? 

I'm not really capable of looking at it like this right now. I hope someone else can give you a reply .

[enlighten me]

Sorry Zin

Not meaning to hijack the thread.

Just been pondering their behaviour and a lot of things you have said in the thread got me thinking.

There was a BPD posted earlier saying how she cant understand her moods and that also got me thinking that the things a BPD does aren't intentional its just the way their body's cope.

Once again many apologies 

By the way I think your handling thing brilliantly. I left my exgf long before where you are as I felt I was going mad and couldn't understand her behaviour.

[formflier]

 

Ziniztar,

I think you are on right track.

You are giving out clear choices and expectations. 

Let us know how things went in your T session... .

[123Phoebe]

I don't know about all this... .

I can see what you want to do and if it were me (and I were him), I think I'd feel controlled.  How is this different than what you already had, except for placing new demands for respect on top of it all?

I'm not dismissing your idea altogether, it's just that with BPD, rules ARE made to be broken. 

He admitted to cheating.  Have you given yourself the space and time to grieve that?  To actually feel what just took place?

Has he been given the time to actually feel what just took place?

I don't have an answer for you and this is coming from my angle, my emotions.  If my guy were to admit to cheating, I believe I'd need a lot of time to digest it.  I mean A LOT.  It wouldn't be easy for me to come up with new terms of engagement; I wouldn't be able to think BPD is behind it, I'd be thinking about me and what's behind my motivations... .  But, that's me and I wish you all the best; I mean that sincerely.

I'll be interested in hearing what your T has to say about it.

[pallavirajsinghani]

It seems to me that what you are proposing is a "therapeutic separation".  One of the most powerful stories of a recovered and functional storybook ending has been from a poster called, "Steph".  So this has been proven to be a viable tool in rebuilding relationship.

Having said that, a separation of this nature and with this intent is structured with the help of a trained clinician and monitored therapeutically as well.

I see you both floundering with the parameters of such a separation because you both are participants and not clinical observers.  Therefore, is it possible to go back to the point one and see if this separation can be put together and maintained and monitored and tweaked with the help of a clinician?

[formflier]

It seems to me that what you are proposing is a "therapeutic separation".  One of the most powerful stories of a recovered and functional storybook ending has been from a poster called, "Steph".  So this has been proven to be a viable tool in rebuilding relationship.

Having said that, a separation of this nature and with this intent is structured with the help of a trained clinician and monitored therapeutically as well.

I see you both floundering with the parameters of such a separation because you both are participants and not clinical observers.  Therefore, is it possible to go back to the point one and see if this separation can be put together and maintained and monitored and tweaked with the help of a clinician?

Good point!

I think this will work well if there is some kind of joint counselor or someone to oversee and guide this.

[ziniztar]

Phoebe I understand your point. I have not really have had time to grieve, it started yesterday I guess.

I felt the pain about him being with someone else.

Him crossing a line that I and him never thought he would, knowing how important it was to me.

Seeing how ill he really is.

I notice that I feel a lot less need to be close to him or to keep him with me.

I think that is a healthy process… I’m trying to be as conscious about it as I can.

Pallaviraj, Formflier, there is not really an option for therapeutic intervention, as he won’t allow me to go to his T or join mine.

Maybe that changes over the course of the upcoming weeks.

He called his T yesterday for half an hour to solely discuss our relationship and how he should proceed.

He sent me a Dutch poem written by a fellow BPD’er yesterday, about how he was feeling.

I might translate that later this week. It kind of irritated me. It’s not about him anymore, it’s about me.

Phoebe, about more rules: he seems to be working well with them in this state of mind.

Once the pressure is off and everything is out in the open (in this case because of the rock bottom he/we reached) he switches.

Then the rules help him. So I don’t expect him to feel pressured.

I also don’t want to impose on him that he HAS to meet me.

If he does not feel up for it, he can cancel. During the first few weeks we can even decide not to see each other.

We have to see each other when we both want to.

But when he feels like this, he should communicate it correctly and with respect.

So the only thing I am forcing him would be to communicate with respect. If he is not willing to do that... It ends here.

Thanks for all your support

[Rapt Reader]

This thread has reached its post limit, and has been locked, with the conversation continuing here: Discussing break-up, Pt. 2.