Will discuss break-up tonight

[waverider]

Once we truly understand our right to be us, it makes easier to accept they have a right to be them, no matter how dysfunctional that may be. Acceptance is across the board

[RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING]

RELATIONSHIP PROBLEM SOLVING This is a high level discussion board for solving ongoing, day-to-day relationship conflicts. Members are welcomed to express frustration but must seek constructive solutions to problems. This is not a place for relationship "stay" or "leave" discussions. Please read the specific guidelines for this group.

[waverider]

It’s so hurtful to see how everything is collapsing for him.

I feel quite sure of my own path now so I don’t feel responsible – that’s a new. Yet it does touch me.

This has probably been their life's story. The difference is that when we step away it suddenly becomes obvious how little support they get from others and why they are so dependent on us. They are wobbling through life without safety nets. a scary way to live

[ziniztar]

And then he admitted cheating on me over The weekend.

The one real boundary I thought I had and here am I in his bed not willing to break things. I feel so Incredibly weak.

when I talk about quitting he wants to do everything he can do to get me back

When I talk about giving it a go he talks about how it could never work

I don't think either of us has ever been this confused and torn

[formflier]

And then he admitted cheating on me over The weekend.

The one real boundary I thought I had and here am I in his bed not willing to break things. I feel so Incredibly weak.

when I talk about quitting he wants to do everything he can do to get me back

When I talk about giving it a go he talks about how it could never work

I don't think either of us has ever been this confused and torn

Ziniztar,

I'll say it again... .you are doing some heavy work!  I commend you for the work and thought you are putting into this decision.

These things don't usually get wrapped up in a nice smooth straight line from start to finish (finish being a decision).

We're all rooting for you!   

[ziniztar]

Thanks. I took all my stuff. Asked my key back. Told him he has 1 chance.

He has to pick up his stuff this Saturday. Everything needs to be in order as if we were splitting up.

He can propose something to me on Saturday.

I’ve proposed I want to go back to dating, building things up from the very beginning.

He has to conquer me again, I will not go to his city or place unless I feel like it and feel like he deserves it.

He is extremely sad, anxious, hurt, wounded when I look at him.

When we’re not in the same room, I think the object constancy kicks in.

He forgets.

So in all honesty,  I think he won’t follow through.

If he has not learnt anything and is persisting his self-destructive behavior he will not pick up his stuff.

He will let it pass, or text me that he can’t make it. Then it really ends there.

It’s the only thing I was willing to offer.

Felt sick to my stomach this morning, was throwing up in the train without having eaten anything.  

[formflier]

 

   

I'm very proud of you for taking your personal feeling and convictions and putting them into action.

You are showing your strength

We are all rooting for you!

[123Phoebe]

 

Relationships can be so ugh!; staying, leaving, in between... .

How do you plan to take care of yourself this week?  Can you keep your focus on that and not on what he might/might not do?  Keep the focus on yourself and your own self care? 

Be kind to you... .

[ziniztar]

     

I'm very proud of you for taking your personal feeling and convictions and putting them into action.

Thanks, formflier. I got to a point where I had discussed going to his town on Friday. I got sick of myself when I realized what I was doing: he cheated on me and I am travelling to his city - again - to discuss a break-up AFTER fighting, spending the night and then waiting a whole week? Nu-uh.

He called me to discuss the previous night. It was a chaos, a storm, he said he couldn't talk to anyone about it and he knew it was weird to talk to me. I smashed his birthday present out of anger which I regret a little :'(. Ripped books, photo's, cards. Deleted everything from the scene, deleted our photos from Facebook. And then minutes later we were discussing possible options on how to stay together. It flipped back and forth in very extreme ways.

Relationships can be so ugh!; staying, leaving, in between... .

How do you plan to take care of yourself this week?  Can you keep your focus on that and not on what he might/might not do?  Keep the focus on yourself and your own self care?  

Be kind to you... .

Yeah ok. I noticed my post was filled with sentences started with 'he'.

Well,

I have called my T to meet up to discuss what

I want out of this relationship in the future.

I will focus on work this week.

I am having multiple dinners with friends.

I have NOT canceled on a friend but requested her to come to me and not discuss him.

I have planned a wine festival on Saturday and told him he is allowed   to join. He probably won't, but I don't care. I am going with other friends either way.

I have planned a SAUNA day on Sunday.

[waverider]

You forgot one:

I love myself and am worth looking after

[123Phoebe]

I have called my T to meet up to discuss what

I want out of this relationship in the future.

I will focus on work this week.

I am having multiple dinners with friends.

I have NOT canceled on a friend but requested her to come to me and not discuss him.

I have planned a wine festival on Saturday and told him he is allowed   to join. He probably won't, but I don't care. I am going with other friends either way.

I have planned a SAUNA day on Sunday.

   

Wow, you do indeed know how to take care of yourself  Go for it, do it, yay you!

You forgot one:

I love myself and am worth looking after

 

[ziniztar]

You forgot one:

I love myself and am worth looking after

Aaah I really did miss that one. I woke up because I was dreaming about him and the emotion linked to it wakes me up, I have that a lot. I felt really anxious about getting him back, like a small abandoned child crying and yearning for someone to stay. That very hopeless, powerless feeling.

That line, I am worth looking after, seems to be the antidote for that feeling. It got me back on track where I wanted to be: thinking about what I need in order to potentially fix what he broke.

Thanks  

[ziniztar]

So...

I will propose to him how I think we should move forward.

I think it’s important I come up with an idea so I won’t react too much to what he has to say (i.e. “I have no idea” or “I will never work”).

My initial idea was to start dating again: no expectations about when and how much we see each other.

His response was that he thinks it’s a good suggestion, but does not see how that could work. We already know each other and “When you date you show your best side, I can’t do that anymore. On top of that I feel so unhappy these days, I don’t see how I could pretend to happily date and do “fun” stuff.”

Then I noticed: what I want is to rebuild trust and respect. And: I don’t want to not see him for weeks (a little bit afraid of the whole object consistency thing and afraid he will relapse into cheating). I also don’t want to be dependent on his time schedule again. He already mentioned “I don’t see that happening in the upcoming weeks”.

So… I figured I want to propose this:

No dating, but fixed times to see each other.

Tuesday nights he comes to my city and he stays the night.  

Saturdays we get lunch and do some shopping in his city. I won’t stay there for sleep-overs until I want to.

Outside of those timeslots: we can propose each other ideas and see if it fits both our schedules.

If he cannot make it on Tuesdays or Saturdays, he kindly cancels the date with respect for me and my time.

If that works for a few weeks, we can start to bargain a bit more.

Any thoughts? Will also discuss with T tomorrow but I'd like your inputs as well .

[enlighten me]

The only way this can work in my opinion is if you are ok with the idea of an open relationship.

By not dating you have left the door wide open for him to see who he wants. There is no guilt attached for him as he's not in a relationship.

If you are ok with it being an open relationship then good for you. Personally if I was meeting up with someone like you suggest it would feel more like a booty call than a relationship.

I couldn't do it though. I can happily commit to someone but I don't think it would ever be possible for me to share them if I had true feelings for them. If I was happy to share them then obviously I don't think that much of them.

What you need to ask yourself is why you are wanting to do this. Is it because you want them in your life no matter what but cant live with all the day to day drama?

[ziniztar]

Hi enlighten me,

I think we mean different things when we say dating .

I do mean dating but in a very structured way. I actually even mean being in a relationship, but in a very structured way. I have no intention whatsoever to allow an open relationship or to allow another episode of cheating. What I am trying to do is recreate the way we treat each other, in order to prevent the cheating. I want to teach him how to treat me, as I have somewhat taught him that my needs and wishes don’t matter in the r/s. That has to end.

He has no intention to cheat again as he has experience the shame, guilt, rages, whatever... He does not ask for an open relationship.

I think I want to allow him 1 chance to overcome this as cheating is a part of acting out / borderline.

I know I can’t control his activities and we will slowly have to build trust again.

If he’s not up for it, then it will end. I also want to believe him if he says he wants to commit now we are renegotiating terms.

Why do you think an open relationship is the only way? If somebody lies to you one time they lie to you forever?

I like to think that people are able to change as long as they’re motivated.

[enlighten me]

By reading what you said I tried to see it from the position of what my exs would have made of it. To me it cam across as more of a no strings attached deal than a structured relationship.

The reason I mentioned open relationships is that in some ways I think its the only way a BPD can remain happy.

Here is my train of thought so I would appreciate it if you let me know what you think.

A person with BPD wants to be loved and fears abandonment. The problem is that they cannot control their emotions so need a way to vent. They do this by arguing, disapeering, cheeting etc etc. Whatever the strange behaviour is it is because they are being overwhelmed by something.

By having this need to vent and not being able to do so the pressure builds up until something burst. They either suddenly end it or cheat.

If they cheat then they have the additional pressure of guilt. By having an open relationship they can go off and vent but not have the guilt.

Now for my scienctific theory behind it. Non of this I have proof of but it seems to make sense to me.

Say a person suffering from BPD has a genetic deformity that when triggered causes them to have high levels of cortisol in their system. Because they are so sensitive to fear then cortisol is being produced in a lot less stressful situations than it normally would. High levels of cortisol affect all other hormones as it acts as a endocrine suppressor. Oxytocin is released to calm down the cortisol levels but is being blocked so it builds up (This could be why when enraged a BPDs eyes dilate so much). Oxytocin is the hormone that bonds people together so even though we are being yelled at we are bonding to them more. High cortisol leads to most of the symptoms of BPD. The problem with prolonged high cortisol levels is that it causes serious illness such as brittle bones and a number of others.

Is it not possible that these breaks from us are caused by an unknown urge to lower these cortisol levels before serious damage is done. The fact that by leaving us or cheating on us these levels lower and permanent damage is avoided would be purely subconscious to them. Its a bit like when a pregnant woman craves something. She doesn't realise that theres a deficiency of say potassium she just knows she wants to eat bananas.

Going back to the oxytocin this could be the reason BPD relationships are so hard to break. After all it is the hormone that forms the mother baby bond. One of the strongest emotional bonds ever.

As I say the science side is pure speculation on my behalf but there is a lot of evidence that has led me to believe this. Im sure someone more qualified such as Skip could correct my theory.

[ziniztar]

Hey, are you hijacking my thread? 

I'm not really capable of looking at it like this right now. I hope someone else can give you a reply .

[enlighten me]

Sorry Zin

Not meaning to hijack the thread.

Just been pondering their behaviour and a lot of things you have said in the thread got me thinking.

There was a BPD posted earlier saying how she cant understand her moods and that also got me thinking that the things a BPD does aren't intentional its just the way their body's cope.

Once again many apologies 

By the way I think your handling thing brilliantly. I left my exgf long before where you are as I felt I was going mad and couldn't understand her behaviour.

[formflier]

 

Ziniztar,

I think you are on right track.

You are giving out clear choices and expectations. 

Let us know how things went in your T session... .

[123Phoebe]

I don't know about all this... .

I can see what you want to do and if it were me (and I were him), I think I'd feel controlled.  How is this different than what you already had, except for placing new demands for respect on top of it all?

I'm not dismissing your idea altogether, it's just that with BPD, rules ARE made to be broken. 

He admitted to cheating.  Have you given yourself the space and time to grieve that?  To actually feel what just took place?

Has he been given the time to actually feel what just took place?

I don't have an answer for you and this is coming from my angle, my emotions.  If my guy were to admit to cheating, I believe I'd need a lot of time to digest it.  I mean A LOT.  It wouldn't be easy for me to come up with new terms of engagement; I wouldn't be able to think BPD is behind it, I'd be thinking about me and what's behind my motivations... .  But, that's me and I wish you all the best; I mean that sincerely.

I'll be interested in hearing what your T has to say about it.

[pallavirajsinghani]

It seems to me that what you are proposing is a "therapeutic separation".  One of the most powerful stories of a recovered and functional storybook ending has been from a poster called, "Steph".  So this has been proven to be a viable tool in rebuilding relationship.

Having said that, a separation of this nature and with this intent is structured with the help of a trained clinician and monitored therapeutically as well.

I see you both floundering with the parameters of such a separation because you both are participants and not clinical observers.  Therefore, is it possible to go back to the point one and see if this separation can be put together and maintained and monitored and tweaked with the help of a clinician?

[formflier]

It seems to me that what you are proposing is a "therapeutic separation".  One of the most powerful stories of a recovered and functional storybook ending has been from a poster called, "Steph".  So this has been proven to be a viable tool in rebuilding relationship.

Having said that, a separation of this nature and with this intent is structured with the help of a trained clinician and monitored therapeutically as well.

I see you both floundering with the parameters of such a separation because you both are participants and not clinical observers.  Therefore, is it possible to go back to the point one and see if this separation can be put together and maintained and monitored and tweaked with the help of a clinician?

Good point!

I think this will work well if there is some kind of joint counselor or someone to oversee and guide this.

[ziniztar]

Phoebe I understand your point. I have not really have had time to grieve, it started yesterday I guess.

I felt the pain about him being with someone else.

Him crossing a line that I and him never thought he would, knowing how important it was to me.

Seeing how ill he really is.

I notice that I feel a lot less need to be close to him or to keep him with me.

I think that is a healthy process… I’m trying to be as conscious about it as I can.

Pallaviraj, Formflier, there is not really an option for therapeutic intervention, as he won’t allow me to go to his T or join mine.

Maybe that changes over the course of the upcoming weeks.

He called his T yesterday for half an hour to solely discuss our relationship and how he should proceed.

He sent me a Dutch poem written by a fellow BPD’er yesterday, about how he was feeling.

I might translate that later this week. It kind of irritated me. It’s not about him anymore, it’s about me.

Phoebe, about more rules: he seems to be working well with them in this state of mind.

Once the pressure is off and everything is out in the open (in this case because of the rock bottom he/we reached) he switches.

Then the rules help him. So I don’t expect him to feel pressured.

I also don’t want to impose on him that he HAS to meet me.

If he does not feel up for it, he can cancel. During the first few weeks we can even decide not to see each other.

We have to see each other when we both want to.

But when he feels like this, he should communicate it correctly and with respect.

So the only thing I am forcing him would be to communicate with respect. If he is not willing to do that... It ends here.

Thanks for all your support

[Rapt Reader]

This thread has reached its post limit, and has been locked, with the conversation continuing here: Discussing break-up, Pt. 2.