Talking about abuse after a rage. Yes/No?

[Moselle]

I just had a conversation where I raised some very abusive things that were said to me during one of her rages.

She started crying and said I had hurt her, so I said. "Let's park it and discuss it later"

Do you raise this stuff with pwBPD after a rage or not? If so, how?

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[qkslvrgirl]

Averyron: She raged, you responded with (justified) grievances, and she avoided dealing with it by crying and getting you to back off (due to guilt, possibly).

Having been down a version of this path with my uBPDh, I have to admit that "throwing it back in his face" made me feel pretty darn good at the time; however, in the long-run it didn't make him change.

The professionals on this board may have a totally different slant in their responses, but after 12 years, the only thing that really works to improve the relationship is to set a boundary.

In the case of insults, put-downs and controlling language, I learned to simply state, "You cannot speak to me in that way" - followed by leaving / removing myself from the situation.

This gets to the root of the problem, whereas trying to have a logical conversation about verbal abuse can become a shouting match.

Quicksilver Girl

[qkslvrgirl]

BTW, I got really tired of being told how much I had hurt him.

[Moselle]

Averyron: She raged, you responded with (justified) grievances, and she avoided dealing with it by crying and getting you to back off (due to guilt, possibly).

Spot on Quicksilver Girl - it was guilt.

I'm reading the book "co-dependent no more" and I'm learning to feel the feeling, in this case it was guilt. Make a conscious judgement, I thought "this person is mentally ill, should I feel guilty - No", and it went away immediately. Wow!

I have a new perspective on the pain they experience, after reading a post by Aussie JJ. It is incredibly intense, and they are well aware of how they hurt us. They avoid acknowledging it, because to acknowledge it would make them feel so unbelievably guilty and bad. So they project it back onto us, not out of malice, but out of sheer emotional survival. I don't condone it, but I'm learning compassion for it.

It's not like I let her get away with this :-) As far as this guilt goes, I will phone her in a few hours and let her know what she did and how I felt about it.

[Crumbling]

Here's what happened in our home~

Raging, fighting, shouting, things flying... .I think you know what I mean.

Next day, I'm writing about it on my blog, my personal blog where everyone who knows us would read it.  It's not posted yet, but up on the screen.  As I'm typing, he walks in, sees what I'm writing and goes into a tantrum.

"You can't say that, you make me out to be a monster!"  I had not used any foul language, had only talked about my feelings and how and why it hurt me so deeply and had only barely touched briefly on some of the things he had been yelling at me the night before.

At first he completely denied being that way, claiming he never said those things.  I had to remind him of what was said before he raged, and slowly he began to realize that he may have been mean.  I told him that it was his actions that made him out to be a monster, not my words.  I didn't post it, and it didn't really change much, but for a brief moment, I could see he understood me.  I didn't get I'm sorry, I didn't get a hug - just a simple look of understanding then he walked away.

This has been the one and only time in 9 years that I'd been remotely validated in my hurt over his actions by this man.  Since then, he has been in therapy and he has been working hard at changing.  I see progress.  But he had to decide to change.

You're feelings deserve to be validated, I totally agree.  It is awful. It's awful the way they dump everything on us, making us suffer with them, even blame us for their actions.  It is, afterall, always about them.

But to get validation from a BPD is like banging your head on the wall, at least from my BPD.   In order to see the pain he's caused, he would have to take responsibility for the actions that caused it, and that just doesn't happen in this house!  I'm not an expert, and maybe I'm not the norm, but that's my experience.

Co-dependent no more!  I like it!  Good to hear about your breakthrough.  There's great links on this site to help you ' ractice' your conversation before you get into things. The SET technique is pretty effective in attempting to engage them without enraging or triggering them.   Might as well face things fully armed!

Best of wishes, and good strength, c.

[ColdEthyl]

My husband has been working on himself, and after a rage before, I couldn't really ever talk to him about it. Now for the past few months, we will talk about it in the morning and he's listening to how I feel (He never did before) and he's been trying really hard to not let it spill over. I told him this morning that although I don't fully understand how he feels... .because  do not have the same intense feelings he does, I do understand that it overtakes him. He raged last night about the car having problems, and naturally he tried to pick a fight several times about other mundane issues, when this time I knew where the anger was coming from. I told him how much I appreciate him trying, and my anxiety of the car splashes on him a lot worse than I realized.

My attitude directly effects his. That is going to be so hard for me... .I told him I didn't want him to DO anything about it, I just wanted him to acknowledge my feelings, too. I have anxiety issues, and sometimes I can't keep it in check either. The car is stalling randomly, and yesterday it stalled 4 times. Suffice to say my nerves were shot when I got home. He NEEDS me to come home happy and smiling... .and I told him from now on I will try to get myself in a better mindset before I get into the house.

[maxsterling]

My feeling here is that you would be telling her something she already knows and has heard before.  Maybe not from you, but from an ex, a family member, or even a friend or co-worker.  The first time my fiancé raged at me, I was trying to communicate that I was having a problem dealing with her constant negative moods.  And last night she was upset because she feels like people don't like her because she is too negative.  So me telling her that I was having problems with her negative moods triggered the rage, because I was telling her something she already knows, something she had heard before right before being broken up with.

From my experience, telling a pwBPD that he/she is abusive is almost guaranteed to be met with the highest defenses and claims that you are the one who is abusive.  As stated by quckslvergrl, it may make you feel better temporarily, but if your goal is to stay in the relationship long term, it won't change anything for the better.  It's not like she will listen to you and change her behavior because you called her abusive.  

The approach I use is to first take a big deep breath that the rage is over, the insults have stopped, and my ears are no longer ringing from the screaming.  Then over the next few hours to days I think about whether this is something that I can move past on my own or need to bring up again.  I find that many things I can move past by getting validation or comfort elsewhere.  And if I do feel I have to bring something up again, I do my best to not phrase it as "you hurt me" and instead say "I feel hurt when you said... ."  The reality is here, that no matter how you phrase it, it will be mostly about it getting off your chest, because the pwBPD behavior is unlikely to change based on what you said.  Once the incident is over, there's really not much you can do but move on.  Bringing it up again is unlikely to solve anything.  The better approach is to enforce a boundary when it is happening, and remove yourself from the abuse.

[Crumbling]

We've reached an agreement, that some days are my days to be hurt, down, upset, worried... .fill in the blank.  I tell him, if it's too difficult for him to handle, I'll understand if he leaves, but I have a right to be in a bad place just as much as he does.  Sometimes it works and sometimes I'm just back to being his caretaker. 

That's the problem, is that we non-BPDs are so rarely given a chance to shed our own feelings and have them be met with empathy.  It's just not in them to help.   

[winnie77]

Has anyone in here experienced BPDs getting mad at financial limitations or ignoring limitations when they want something?

[Moselle]

Has anyone in here experienced BPDs getting mad at financial limitations or ignoring limitations when they want something?

Ah Yes. Every day! Financial concepts don't seem to stick. Unless it's getting what they want now and pay later. LOL

Good luck with that :-)

[winnie77]

Moselle, will they lie to cover up spending or anything they are ashamed of or know they shouldn't do?

[Moselle]

Moselle, will they lie to cover up spending or anything they are ashamed of or know they shouldn't do?

It depends on your point of reference. Against facts and evidence Yes, they lie, commit fraud, do all sorts of things that we would consider morally wrong.

Against their internal truth, it is a different matter, they feel quite justified most of the time.

One way to look at it is like this. We respond to truth or facts with feelings. We win a race (fact), we feel happy, accomplished, proud.

People with BPD have their feelings as the truth, and twist or make up facts to suit their internal truth (the feeling). Eg they feel abandoned, angry, hatred for a spouse who separates from them. They make up stories of abuse, and other things (pseudofacts) to make the spouse look bad. (Believe me they become very believable because it is their truth, and people often side with them because they turn on the emotion, tears, everything - I know this from sad experience)

[tayana]

About the financial stuff... .my pwBPD often accuses me of spending all of our money when she's the one who will go spend on frivolous stuff then accuse me of spending on eating out.  I once added up what I'd spent eating out... .$13 compared to her $100 plus on other stuff.  I didn't say anything to her.  I couldn't because it would have just started another fight.

I've been accused of being abusive in just about every way possible.  Even a joking tap on the face when she'd been to the dentist and asked me to hit her has been turned into physical abuse and that I punched her.  It does no good to suggest that she might be the abusive one.  She just turns it back on me.

[ColdEthyl]

When we have been low on money, mine has said something about how much money I've spent at work on lunch... .let's not even talk about the alcohol or cigarettes he consumes every week. He's gotten better about that the past year, though. I literally handle every cent now, and I might give him 20 or so and that's all he gets, otherwise he splurges. He has recognized this and stopped... .thank God.

About the financial stuff... .my pwBPD often accuses me of spending all of our money when she's the one who will go spend on frivolous stuff then accuse me of spending on eating out.  I once added up what I'd spent eating out... .$13 compared to her $100 plus on other stuff.  I didn't say anything to her.  I couldn't because it would have just started another fight.

I've been accused of being abusive in just about every way possible.  Even a joking tap on the face when she'd been to the dentist and asked me to hit her has been turned into physical abuse and that I punched her.  It does no good to suggest that she might be the abusive one.  She just turns it back on me.

[michel71]

Has anyone in here experienced BPDs getting mad at financial limitations or ignoring limitations when they want something?

Winnie. ALL THE TIME! Don't even get me started on the long story of how my inheritance dwindled down to almost nothing because she had to have things her way. Her attitude was basically one of entitlement and "don't worry babe, we will make it up later. It's just money". Then came the part where it was there in black and white how much we spent because of HER and how little of it we had left. AND IT DIDN'T MATTER. When something she wanted didn't fit into the newly imposed budget ( I had to make it), I was told by her that I did not provide for her, was cheap, made promises I did not keep ( hello... .couldn't keep some of them... .didn't expect the money to go as fast as it did). It does not matter to them what your personal comfort level is about money. THEY DON'T CARE. It is all about their needs and their wants and their immediate satisfaction.

I would suggest hiding money. In a safe deposit box. In a trusted family member or friend's name with yours as a beneficiary. I feel that my BPDw will drain me dry. That is one of the reasons I am afraid to stay much longer.

[michel71]

One more thing Winnie as to the financial irresponsibility of the BPD ( mine at least), when we were having a long distance relationship I could not go the UK for her birthday. We had spent so much on the wedding and I had been over numerous times. Funds were getting tight and I was scared.

We were waiting on her visa at this time and she could not visit me in the US.

To be punitive, she took her and her daughter on a $3000 vacation to Spain.

Put it on her credit card. Said I didn't have to pay it! Right. Since she doesn't have a job yet and she is here with me in the US now, guess who is giving her a monthly allowance? Yep. I am paying for it whether I like it or not.

[tayana]

This sounds awful, but I finally took my pwBPD off of one of our joint checking accounts so she has no access to the funds from my job.  I consider this the important money and switched all bills to this account because the other kept getting overdrawn.  Now, I use the little bit of leftover money in that account for treats for myself so she can't accuse me of spending the money in our shared account.  I finally got to the point where I just couldn't handle being accused of spending all of our money, even though I wasn't, or else I was spending it on things we needed or for the kids.  I'm already in charge of the finances and all the bills are in my name.  This is the way she wanted it when we first got together, but she'll throw that in my face anytime she gets upset with me.  She didn't want to worry about money, so of course, she does all the time.  Mostly because we don't have enough to go on a extravagant vacation every year.

[winnie77]

Ayveron... .i think that is what my husband did when he had an emotional affair friendship whatever it was behind my back. We had just moved two states over and because of his lies about his income and financial irresponsibility we ended up homeless... .i decided to move back to our home state while he was trying to get promoted. He agreed it would be best and he would stay with friends... .but what he didn't tell me was he had a secret female friend he had gotten sympathy from because he told her if he didn't hurry up and

get promoted, I would leave him... .he didn't tell her he had lied to me and caused us to be homeless... .so he ended up calling her and for two weeks was awful to me. I found out a month later from the phone bill there was a lot of texting etc... .but it only lasted two weeks and I think it scared him so bad because she wasn't wanting to let go, that he started changing his behavior and thinking before I even found out... .

Thank you for pointing that out... .i think that may be exactly what he was doing... .

[maxsterling]

Has anyone in here experienced BPDs getting mad at financial limitations or ignoring limitations when they want something?

Judging by the replies to this, it seems money is always an issue in a relationship with a pwBPD.  Money and potentially having children are the two things that I can see splitting us up in an ugly way.  My situation is similar to those already posted regarding money.  The truth?  She has barely worked all year.  The years prior she had a good job working internationally with few expenses.  She got an inheritance on the order of over $10k when her grandmother died.  Over the course of her life, she's easily gotten way more money and support from her family and the government than I have.  And since she has been with me, I've paid 100% of the household expenses, plus several thousand in her expenses.  And all she does is worry about money, tells me I need to get a higher paying job, tells me she hates living "hand to mouth."  I remind her that I never lived that way before her living with me - in other words, if she hates being poor, she can do something about that!  It bothers me to hear her talk about how her dad is never financially supportive of her.  Crap, he gave her a car as a teenager, paid for her college, has gotten WAY more from him in gifts than I ever got from my parents!  And why does he not giver her money anymore?  Gee, she's 38, she blew all of what he gave her years ago on drugs and a reckless lifestyle, and still has over 100k in student loan debt.  I understand not getting along with her father, but to be mad at him for not ever giving her money just rubs me wrong. 

Sorry for the vent. I'm done

[Bear60]

Has anyone in here experienced BPDs getting mad at financial limitations or ignoring limitations when they want something?

Ah Yes. Every day! Financial concepts don't seem to stick. Unless it's getting what they want now and pay later. LOL

Good luck with that :-)

Yep, in my experiences if there is money in the bank they think they can spend it with no regard to tomorrow and what that money was needed for or how it will ever be paid. They also have holes burned it their pockets... .cash doesn't last long. Not that all of them spend large sums at once but the nickel and dime add up.

[MissyM]

People with BPD have their feelings as the truth, and twist or make up facts to suit their internal truth (the feeling). Eg they feel abandoned, angry, hatred for a spouse who separates from them. They make up stories of abuse, and other things (pseudofacts) to make the spouse look bad. (Believe me they become very believable because it is their truth, and people often side with them because they turn on the emotion, tears, everything - I know this from sad experience)

Oh, yes!  My dBPDh's therapist has told him he can't discuss me with others because he distorts the truth and makes himself the victim.  Sadly, he has a new sponsor that has been pretty good but doesn't know he is BPD.  That makes this sponsor unprepared for the manipulation. 

[waverider]

Moselle, will they lie to cover up spending or anything they are ashamed of or know they shouldn't do?

They act on need and impulse of the moment, and prior levels of responsibility or obligation  are overriden by these stronger motivators.

After the act the need to avoid responsibility kicks in so they will first convince themselves that they had a justifiable reason. They believe their need and action is actually their business and not yours. They will make excuses, deny/cover up simply to avoid accountability. They are backed into a corner and the survival instinct of fight or flight kicks in.

Listing out all their "transgressions' simply heightens the fight or flight instincts. Don't get drawn into a blow for blow accusation/denial match it will get worse. Simply make it clear they are busted, and you are not impressed, they know what happened even if they wont admit it. If there needs to be consequences/boundaries enact them

Do not argue with a pwBPD, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience

[winnie77]

Thank you waverider.  That is exactly what i suspected. And the more shame they feel the more likely they are to rationalize it the way you stated. Thank you thank you for clearing that up... .wanted to make sure I was understanding thoroughly.

[nightmoves]

Waverider... .

Wow.

That is EXACTLY what it feels like.

I firmly - and without anger - stood up to my BPDw just these past days.

I told her that the rage, fury, aggression, name calling , verbal abuse was not ok... .was a significant drain my me the family... .and really needed to stop.

It was as though she BARELY let me even get the words out. It is like... .whenever I try to even talk about ANYTHING like this that she does... .she cuts me off... gets ANGRY... .will not let me finish... OR ... .if I am seeming to make a point she cannot justify away... .she flees. Leaves the room, leaves the house... .etc... .

Now mind you... .there is NO aggression shown to her nor anger.

BUT she goes from 0-100 in seconds. It is almost that she either realizes that this offense and aggression works to stop the discussion - OR - she is THAT unwilling to look at her self ... .or both.

She TRULY turns it all around on me. SHE winds up being ANGRY at ME.

She was completely out of sorts the past few days. Calling me at the office - yelling. The house was upside down with her emotions, anger, irrationality.

Now mind you... it was about a series of things I had nothing to do with. BUT... .the crazy thing is that she found preposterous ways to WEAVE me into to them. AND actually weave in others who had NOTHING to do with any of it as well.

Eerie to even watch.

I asked her about a dozen times to please calm down. That this tone/anger/rage was not even NECESSARY. It did nothing to stop it.

SO ... .days later... when I am desirous of things JUST getting back to at least where they were PRIOR to all this... .I begin to try and meet in the middle.

I really believe that people should STRIVE to NOT lose their temper etc... .(life is too short)

So when I try to begin to tell her I love her... .try to be upbeat and kind... .

I am met with a person who now tells me that "these past few days ... .you have really upset me"... "and now we have taken 20 steps backward"... .

What? Again - so now I TRIED to voice my desire to have her at least LOOK at this behavior of hers...

AND I am not punished for that.

IN FACT... .I had made it clear over and over again that it was NOT the issue or the topic.It was ehr BEHAVIOR. She KEPT goign back to the issue of the moment... .(which was insignificant) I suppose to try and "justify"the behavior?

So - this time when she took a stance that she is pissed and will be for days... .I had it a bit.

Again - very calmly  on the phone - I told her that she is turning this completely around. That I voiced a real problem for me. Her behavior.

She said that "When you bring this stuff up... .you do real damage"... .

I said "so that tells me that you are telling me to just accept this treatment... and your aggression etc?"

She actually said that "I "made her" be that way when I tried to discuss"... ."that I "escalated"things when I try to calm her down or "discuss" things"

I could not believe what I was hearing.

I said "oh come on... NOONE or NOTHING ... .just MAKES a person that way . You cannot go into a RAGE... .get AGGRESSIVE... .VISCOUS ... .and then say it is all ok... .because the other person MAE me mad"... .

She then - as always - just HUNG UP THE PHONE... .

WHAT - OR WHY does she deal with this - this way?

[qkslvrgirl]

Has anyone in here experienced BPDs getting mad at financial limitations or ignoring limitations when they want something?

Oh, yes... .that sounds like the norm.

Their financial "reality" is as bizarre as anything else about BPD; however, I have found that stating the following help shift some of his financial anxiety: "Money is not an emotion."

This is something that also helps me when dealing with finances. Money is a tool, at best, and a situation to be resolved at worst. It is never helpful to handle finances through a cloud of emotion.

[winnie77]

Nightmoves, my husband does the same thing. Believe it or not, what would calm me or you down because it's sensible and rational, will escalate them... .BECAUSE it's sensible and rational... . I have found in those circumstances, I'll tell mine it's perfectly ok to feel angry however I believe it makes you feel worse when you hurt my feelings so maybe finding another way to express it may be better. Often, for him anyway, it works eventually. It's like he just wants me to hear his hurt and anger, when I do and also recognize his pain and shame it seems to help. That's just mine though... .not all BPDs are the same... .i understand your frustration... .

[waverider]

Calmly discussing middle ground is too grey. They dont do grey.  

Trying to steer her to the middle ground destabilizes her.

It needs to be black or white, someone needs to be at fault.

Pointing the blame finger is primal defense of a pwBPD.

Its an arena to stay out of, they have home ground advantage.

Leave the field while your pride is still intact.

[Moselle]

They act on need and impulse of the moment, and prior levels of responsibility or obligation  are overriden by these stronger motivators.

After the act the need to avoid responsibility kicks in so they will first convince themselves that they had a justifiable reason. They believe their need and action is actually their business and not yours. They will make excuses, deny/cover up simply to avoid accountability. They are backed into a corner and the survival instinct of fight or flight kicks in.

Listing out all their "transgressions' simply heightens the fight or flight instincts. Don't get drawn into a blow for blow accusation/denial match it will get worse. Simply make it clear they are busted, and you are not impressed, they know what happened even if they wont admit it. If there needs to be consequences/boundaries enact them

Do not argue with a pwBPD, they will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience

Waverider,

I have learned to bust the circular arguments, shouting, arguments etc, without too much fuss. It's actually getting a bit humorous for me now. I sms'd her the other day to "stop being a victim, it bores me", to which I had 5 missed calls which I ignored. 1 hour later she was just fine. She started telling me "Go find a flusie for yourself", I laughed and said "thanks for the relationship advice"

There are two things however which I cannot tolerate. One is violence towards me or the children (She has beaten, kicked, scratched me many times, and is the primary reason I separated in January). The other is disparaging or humiliating me publically - I have absolutely no tolerance for this disloyalty. In the FOG, I somehow accepted these things :-(, but now they really are reasons big enough for me to divorce her. I have communicated this to her and she has accepted that. I know it feels like a bit of an ultimatum, but I needed to communicate the seriousness to her. Is it possible for her to over-ride the impulses to do these things if the consequence is big enough?

[Moselle]

Coming back to my original post in this thread, I raised the issue with her on the phone today, because I am firm with my boundaries. If she tries this stuff I always raise it.

She could not understand that her crying had:

1. Resulted in me feeling guilty.

2. That I had a right to raise something that was uncomfortable for me.

She could not empathise at all with me, started blaming me for hurting her again and said lots of 'but's so I said:

OK remove us from the equation.

Imagine a schoolclass, with pupils sitting in class. One of the children raises his hand and asks. "M'am, yesterday you said the colour of the chalkboard was black, today you say it is white. Which one is it? black or white?

The teacher bursts into tears, and leaves the classroom, saying as she leaves "You have no idea how much you've hurt me".

I said to my wife. Can you see:

1. How the pupil might feel confused, but guilty for hurting his teachers feelings.

2. That he had the right to ask a clarifying question for something which confused him.

She said, "yes I can see that", and I said. "Well that is what I was doing too".

I'm not sure if it got through, but I tried

[Vexed]

When I calmly point out how she has disrespected and insulted me her first response always, "I was joking, you're too sensitive".  If I don't except that answer it turns into more anger, rage, and any communication is lost. 

It's obvious she feels bad about it and refuses to accept blame because it will make her feel worse, so it's a stone cold denial to protect her psyche. How to deal with it? Setting your boundary is pretty much the only option to curb the rage, there is no fixing or winning in the situation.